With Day of Protests, Fast-Food Workers Seek More Pay

[Gerald]

The biggest wave of job actions in the history of America’s fast-food industry began at 6:30 a.m. on Thursday at a McDonald’s at Madison Avenue and 40th Street, with several dozen protesters chanting: “Hey, hey, what do you say? We demand fair pay.”

That demonstration kicked off a day of walkouts and rallies at dozens of Burger King, Taco Bell, Wendy’s, McDonald’s and other fast-food restaurants in New York City, organizers said. They said 14 of the 17 employees scheduled to work the morning shift at the McDonald’s on Madison Avenue did not — part of what they said were 200 fast-food workers who went on strike in the city.

Raymond Lopez, 21, an aspiring actor who has worked at the McDonald’s for two and a half years, showed up at the daybreak protest on his day off. “In this job, having a union would really be a dream come true,” said Mr. Lopez, who said his pay of $8.75 an hour left him feeling undercompensated. “It really is living in poverty.” ”

Hope they stay together.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/nyregion/fast-food-workers-in-new-york-city-rally-for-higher-wages.html?ref=nyregion


Note: November 29, 2012

[GoldenRivet]

Ronald McReagan their asses

you're fired

followed by a sign that says

now hiring all shifts

These kids need to get real... working at McDonald's is not a career unless you plan to work your way up to management, get a degree and move into corporate the long way round.

get your ass back to the fry cooker and shut the hell up

[August]

I gotta agree with GR. Burger flipping was never meant to provide a living wage.

[gimpy117]

never meant to provide a living wage :hmmm:

well isn't that the darnedest thing we complain about people living on "the government tit" yet some jobs don't pay a wage you can live on. What are these people supposed to do? Drop a bunch of money for college that *Might* get them a better job? or should they just use some magic spells to make more cash? Lets face it, Either we subsidize people with government money, or we make minimum wage affordable.

I'm one of the minimum wage people, and I assure you It is NOT easy to live on such a low income I'm going to have to make the choice between Buying Food for next or Buying Gas for my car to drive the 200 miles a week I do to get to class

IMO, Minimum wage is a joke. I knew a guy who was hired into my place of work in 2001 at $9.00/hr, while new hires today make the lowest legal

[joea]

never meant to provide a living wage :hmmm:

well isn't that the darnedest thing we complain about people living on "the government tit" yet some jobs don't pay a wage you can't live on. What are these people supposed to do? Drop a bunch of money for college that *Might* get them a better job? or should they just use some magic spells to make more cash? Lets face it, Either we subsidize people with government money, or we make minimum wage affordable.

I'm one of the minimum wage people, and I assure you It is NOT easy to live on such a low income I'm going to have to make the choice between Buying Food for next or Buying Gas for my car to drive the 200 miles a week I do to get to class

IMO, Minimum wage is a joke. I knew a guy who was hired into my place of work in 2001 at $9.00/hr, while new hires today make the lowest legal
Exactly, I don't understand why no one sees it. :/\\!!

[AVGWarhawk]

Couple of things here. You agreed to the minimum wage. No one forced your hand to sign. You where probably told it is minimum wage and not a living wage. Whats the problem then? Also, many a hard worker non-college grad worked their way up the ladder. I started minimum wage changing tires. I then learned how to align a car while not busy changing tires. I was moved up with better pay to alignment tech. When I was not aligning cars I watched mechanic complete brake jobs. I moved from alignment tech to technician. I took the ASE tests on my own becoming a certified mechanic. By year 8 in the automotive industry I was given the position of Service Manager with pay raise plus commission. I purchased my first home a few months later. I was 23 at the time. None of this required a college education. Find a job that has mobility within. Work hard. The formula worked for me.

PS. At the same time I was learning and working the automotive field I was also working part time security and full time at school. I worked 2 jobs for the better part of 10 years to keep myself going. We realize minimum wage is horrible. Been there.

[the_tyrant]

Minimum wage where I am is 10.25$, 9.60$ for students.

I do think that it is a respectable amount though, any more and hiring would no longer be worth it. Especially following current trends, considering that supermarkets have self checkout, factories use robots now, and retail no longer needs nearly as many employees as before.

I don't work minimum wage though, I got my Comptia A+, Network +, Security + certifications. I make 11$ an hour in the office, 35$ per house call.

[Takeda Shingen]

never meant to provide a living wage :hmmm:

well isn't that the darnedest thing we complain about people living on "the government tit" yet some jobs don't pay a wage you can't live on. What are these people supposed to do? Drop a bunch of money for college that *Might* get them a better job? or should they just use some magic spells to make more cash? Lets face it, Either we subsidize people with government money, or we make minimum wage affordable.l

All of which makes one wonder when we recall statements like this:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rick-santorum-a-lot-of-people-in-us-have-no-desire-for-college/

Okay, so institutions of higher education are indoctrination centers and should be avoided, but just don't expect a livable wage from the employment options that come without a bachelors degree, because we're not doing anything about the minimum wage. Shut the hell up and get back to the fryer.

And people wonder why the GOP is losing traction with the voting public.

[mookiemookie]

All of which makes one wonder when we recall statements like this:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rick-santorum-a-lot-of-people-in-us-have-no-desire-for-college/

Okay, so institutions of higher education are indoctrination centers and should be avoided, but just don't expect a livable wage from the employment options that come without a bachelors degree, because we're not doing anything about the minimum wage. Shut the hell up and get back to the fryer.

And people wonder why the GOP is losing traction with the voting public.

And all these freeloaders who are on welfare and Medicaid need to get off their lazy ass and get a job. But the ones who do have a job that pays them so little that they have to be on welfare and Medicaid need to shut the hell up and go back to the fryer. :doh:

Screw you for trying to fight to better your place in life. To hell with you for angling for the best deal possible. Don't you know how un-American that is?

[AVGWarhawk]

All of which makes one wonder when we recall statements like this:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rick-santorum-a-lot-of-people-in-us-have-no-desire-for-college/

Okay, so institutions of higher education are indoctrination centers and should be avoided, but just don't expect a livable wage from the employment options that come without a bachelors degree, because we're not doing anything about the minimum wage. Shut the hell up and get back to the fryer.

And people wonder why the GOP is losing traction with the voting public.

I would say there are some colleges that do influence people other than educationally. It does not belay the fact that one can get ahead without college. I have several family members and in-laws working behind a desk doing very well. Better than some who did obtain a degree. I understand that they can not take away your good name and education. We should also add a good work ethic. If someones aspirations go no higher than the fry vat then so be it.

My 17 year old daughter applied to a kennel/animal day care just before Thanksgiving. They needed holiday help as many drop their pets for care over the holiday. She was hired for seasonal work only. This is the busy time at the kennel. She started two weeks ago at minimum wage. She worked hard, listened and went above what was expected without supervision. Last week she was offered a full time position(when she turns 18) with a bump in pay. To add to this tale of good work her aspirations in making a career is become a veterinarian tech. Now, would this experience in a kennel handling animals of all shapes and sizes play nicely on a resume down the road when applying to veterinarian clinics?

Yes, lets subsidized the low wage earner. Another incentive to stay at the fry vat. :shifty:

[mookiemookie]

Yes, lets subsidized the low wage earner. Another incentive to stay at the fry vat. :shifty:

We are subsidizing them.

This study (http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/retail/walmart.pdf) found that the average Wal-Mart worker required $730 in taxpayer-funded healthcare and $1,222 in other forms of assistance, such as food stamps and subsidized housing, per year to get by. Why should the taxpayer pay that? Why shouldn't the employer pay that?

[Stealhead]

I am not sure I really agree with these people you can only pay a person so much such a basic job really.Yes some jobs pay low but nothing is stopping you from getting a better job.I think there should be a limit to what someone gets as a minimum wage.The whole point is you either say "I like this job so I will put forth effort and by doing so I will be offered a better paying position" or "This job sucks I should try to find a better job (or use this as inspiration to well in school so that I will be able to get myself a better job)."

One of my cousins is in college and she got hired at a Zaxbys restaurant in September she was such a good employee that she got offered an assistant manager position after only a month working.

Honestly I dont really have much pity for those working at at fast food joint that want more pay because most of the time I look around in such a place and only 2 or 3 employees are really putting in a good effort at working.I worked at a restaurant in high school and this was the case for most of the employees.I thought the the job was lousy and the pay but it inspired me to bust my ass at work and to try my hardest. When I got out of school I joined the Air Force and I advanced pretty quickly because I spent the time to know my job and I started studying for the two advancement tests for Staff Sargent as a result I earned the grade in only 4 years some people dont even get promoted once in 4 years if they enlisted at E-3 which many people do now a days.If you really try at something you will succeed.My advice to any fast food worker if they like that work is to go to culinary school and work from there.


What if they did form a union? Then they would complain about the union dues which can be $50 or $60 a month my sister is in a teachers union and she pays $100.00 for her it is worth it but for a really low wage job it is not and it would only encourage unambitious people to stay in a unionized burger joint at the low wage job.The reason for this is that some people will settle for a certain level and just stay at that point even if they could do better.

I can agree with a coal miner having a union and I agree with trade unions generally speaking they can do good things for people and also allow an employer that needs skilled tradesmen and women that they will get people of a given standard and this type of union promotes a pride in being part of a group a professional.Like anything else human beings do things can go too far though but that street goes both ways.

@moookiemookie a study from Berkeley a super liberal school I would not trust anything coming from that school to have a neutral point of view I find that as trust worthy as a report from Fox News being read by Glenn Beck.

[AVGWarhawk]

We are subsidizing them.

This study (http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/retail/walmart.pdf) found that the average Wal-Mart worker required $730 in taxpayer-funded healthcare and $1,222 in other forms of assistance, such as food stamps and subsidized housing, per year to get by. Why should the taxpayer pay that? Why shouldn't the employer pay that?

I was refering to gimpy117 comment. I know some of these folks are subsidized. Many are not. Not all minimum wage earns are on food stamps. Some are. Others get tax credit every April. It would seem hard work and using one's head to get ahead is not in the cards for some folks. Welcome to the entitlement zone.

[AVGWarhawk]

I am not sure I really agree with these people you can only pay a person so much such a basic job really.Yes some jobs pay low but nothing is stopping you from getting a better job.I think there should be a limit to what someone gets as a minimum wage.The whole point is you either say "I like this job so I will put forth effort and by doing so I will be offered a better paying position" or "This job sucks I should try to find a better job (or use this as inspiration to well in school so that I will be able to get myself a better job)."

One of my cousins is in college and she got hired at a Zaxbys restaurant in September she was such a good employee that she got offered an assistant manager position after only a month working.

Honestly I dont really have much pity for those working at at fast food joint that want more pay because most of the time I look around in such a place and only 2 or 3 employees are really putting in a good effort at working.I worked at a restaurant in high school and this was the case for most of the employees.I thought the the job was lousy and the pay but it inspired me to bust my ass at work and to try my hardest. When I got out of school I joined the Air Force and I advanced pretty quickly because I spent the time to know my job and I started studying for the two advancement tests for Staff Sargent as a result I earned the grade in only 4 years some people dont even get promoted once in 4 years if they enlisted at E-3 which many people do now a days.If you really try at something you will succeed.My advice to any fast food worker if they like that work is to go to culinary school and work from there.








And this is yet another testament to what is call "hard work" and "working smart". :up:

[Stealhead]

Also people forget that unions have rules as well if they vote to strike you can not work that job you can not do someone elses job in a union shop if you are a diesel mechanic for a rail road and you try to do the job of a carrepairman you will be punished usually by two or three days without pay and perhaps termination if you do it again.In unions the most senior workers get the best hours and best overtime choice.

Some people feel that a union might allow them to do what they want or that it makes the job easier or less stressful.In alow paying the job the primary benefit of a union would better workers protections and benefits the pay most likely would not go up very much after collective bargaining and for a low skill job it would nearly impossible to get a company agree to going 100% union
when they get not benefit unlike in a skilled trade type job.So in the end they would not be making much more money and some of it would go back in dues.Most of these people seem to want more which means getting a more skilled higher paying working more or working more than one low wage job and the one kid should give up on acting as a way to earn money it leads nowhere for 90% of people not be harsh or anything but if after two years you have nothing that is a hint hint that you are not very good or you are not trying very hard.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yeah, if only poor people weren't so lazy and stupid, they wouldn't be poor.

Glad you made it, AVG. There are millions who work just as hard as you and never do.

[Stealhead]

Who says that a poor person is lazy? I think you are grossly over simplifying a complex issue.There are plenty of stupid and lazy rich people.

[Takeda Shingen]

Who says that a poor person is lazy? I think you are grossly over simplifying a complex issue.

You both did. It was the crux of your argument.

Yes some jobs pay low but nothing is stopping you from getting a better job.I think there should be a limit to what someone gets as a minimum wage.The whole point is you either say "I like this job so I will put forth effort and by doing so I will be offered a better paying position" or "This job sucks I should try to find a better job (or use this as inspiration to well in school so that I will be able to get myself a better job)."

Honestly I dont really have much pity for those working at at fast food joint that want more pay because most of the time I look around in such a place and only 2 or 3 employees are really putting in a good effort at working.I worked at a restaurant in high school and this was the case for most of the employees.I thought the the job was lousy and the pay but it inspired me to bust my ass at work and to try my hardest. When I got out of school I joined the Air Force and I advanced pretty quickly because I spent the time to know my job and I started studying for the two advancement tests for Staff Sargent as a result I earned the grade in only 4 years some people dont even get promoted once in 4 years if they enlisted at E-3 which many people do now a days.If you really try at something you will succeed.My advice to any fast food worker if they like that work is to go to culinary school and work from there.

Most of these people seem to want more which means getting a more skilled higher paying working more or working more than one low wage job and the one kid should give up on acting as a way to earn money it leads nowhere for 90% of people not be harsh or anything but if after two years you have nothing that is a hint hint that you are not very good or you are not trying very hard.

Yes, lets subsidized the low wage earner. Another incentive to stay at the fry vat.

And this is yet another testament to what is call "hard work" and "working smart".

And I left out the antecdotes designed to reinforce this stance. Again, I am glad that both you and AVG made it. But there are millions that don't, and it isn't because they are lazy.

[AVGWarhawk]

Glad you made it, AVG. There are millions who work just as hard as you and never do.


Yes, I know a few of them. The majority if not all are satisfied with what they are doing. So be it. Except one that I know of. He worked the bailing machine at the local papermill. Dead end job for a guy who did not complete 10th grade. Not the brightest crayon in the box. He looked to move up. It would seem there was none for him. He looked for another job. He delivers medical supplies to local residence. Twice the pay. Absolutely loves the job. Has been given praise for his numerous deliveries he makes everyday. In some cases twice as many as others performing the same task. I can not really say I have met anyone who busted his ass and did not move up or out to something better. So, yes, I can not rightly say I know anyone who did not bust his/her hump and not get ahead.

As far as the lazy comment, a young lady worked along side my daughter at her new kennel job. The girl did absolutely nothing the day after Thanksgiving. My daughter picked up her slack. Management recognized this. My daughter was offered the full time position. The other young lady was fired.

[AVGWarhawk]

You both did. It was the crux of your argument.

Would you promote the dead wood at your business? Think not.

Hard work....it is a nice concept and works well in a majority of the cases when employed.

[mookiemookie]

Yeah, if only poor people weren't so lazy and stupid, they wouldn't be poor.

Glad you made it, AVG. There are millions who work just as hard as you and never do.

The "everyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard" idea is so childish and simplistic. As the old saying goes, the world needs ditchdiggers, too. Not everyone in society can be rich.

So, yes, I can not rightly say I know anyone who did not bust his/her hump and not get ahead.

Really? So the implication is that someone who isn't rich or successful or happy in their job is that they're lazy. That's absolutely not true.

Michael Jordan was a great basketball player who worked very hard and made a buttload of money doing it. He was also a baseball player that worked very hard and batted .202.

Put it another way: The investment banker who drives a Porsche works long hours. So does the guy who washes the Porsche. Why don't they make the same amount of money? Face it - luck plays a large part in success. The investment banker is lucky to be living in a society where his skill in analyzing financial statements in advance of an IPO is valued as highly as it is.

[AVGWarhawk]

The "everyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard" idea is so childish and simplistic. As the old saying goes, the world needs ditchdiggers, too.

I think I will start calling you "Debbie Downer."

BTW, changing tires is just as dirty and physical as digging a ditch. Been there and done that. But you know, that ditch digger can learn to operate heavy machinery. Move up out of the hole. The pay is great for these guys.

[Stealhead]

Would you promote the dead wood at your business? Think not.

Hard work....it is a nice concept and works well in a majority of the cases when employed.

Right.I make no apologies for believing in good work ethic.And I did not say that every poor person is lazy I said that some people that work are lazy I was using the example of the low wage job but I have seen lazy lousy workers in every job I have ever had regardless of what they earned or their wealth level.

I never once said poor people are lazy I felt that I would say it literally.

Things will never be equal in this world and they never will be but I do not think that a guy that can afford a Porsche and a guy that washes a Porsche should earn the same pay though you must not no any car detailers because they can make a good deal of money.

I have friend that I have known since kindergarten this guy really struggled through school and had a hard life his parents where drug addicts and he was raised by his grandmother he is mixed half black and half white and took alot of crap for that from some white and black kids at school.He has nothing beyond a high school diploma.He has a one man auto detailing operation he started off in high school and did very well right off the bat this guy makes $60,000 and that is just a part time job for him now because he got a job a few years ago with CSX as a coach cleaner(cleans the cab and outside of CSX locomotives and fuels them up) and he earns good deal doing that.

[AVGWarhawk]

The "everyone can be a millionaire if they just work hard" idea is so childish and simplistic. As the old saying goes, the world needs ditchdiggers, too.



Really? So the implication is that someone who isn't rich or successful or happy in their job is that they're lazy. That's absolutely not true.

Michael Jordan was a great basketball player who worked very hard and made a buttload of money doing it. He was also a baseball player that worked very hard and batted .202.

Put it another way: The investment banker who drives a Porsche works long hours. So does the guy who washes the Porsche. Why don't they make the same amount of money?

Because the guy washing the Porsche likes it or is working to towards something better. No one has a gun to his head.

Ever hear of the mailroom clerk that became CEO of that company he was delivering mail from floor to floor? Guess not.

[AVGWarhawk]

I make no apologies for believing in good work ethic.And I did not say that every poor person is lazy I said that some people that work are lazy I was using the example of the low wage job but I have seen lazy lousy workers in every job I have ever had regardless of what they earned or their wealth level.

I never once said poor people are lazy.You seem to think that i feel this way and you are mistaken.


But Stealhead, this is how these threads usually end up. I also never equated lazy people are poor people as well. Hard work normally provides good fortune. Laziness affords much of nothing. Ask the grasshopper and ant. :up:

[Takeda Shingen]

I think I will start calling you "Debbie Downer."

Does that me we can call you "Uncle Pennybags"? After all, all you need is the will to pass Go and you will get your $200.

Right.I make no apologies for believing in good work ethic.And I did not say that every poor person is lazy I said that some people that work are lazy I was using the example of the low wage job but I have seen lazy lousy workers in every job I have ever had regardless of what they earned or their wealth level.

I never once said poor people are lazy I felt that I would say it literally.

That's fine if you want to back off it now, but I did show you where you said it. You said it politely, but there was no doubt what you meant. They're your words, and if you guys don't want to be held to them, then don't say them in the first place.

[AVGWarhawk]

Does that me we can call you "Uncle Pennybags"? After all, all you need is the will to pass Go and you will get your $200.


And you may call me Mr. Optimism. :O: Yes, the first step is attempting to pass go to get the $200.00. Sitting on one's thumb accepting their lot in life will not change is not the answer. Sorry guys, I do not know anyone who busted their butt and did not get ahead where they were or moved on to something better. I will never buy any argument that one is caught in a rut.

[mookiemookie]

Ever hear of the mailroom clerk that became CEO of that company he was delivering mail from floor to floor? Guess not.

Why don't we plug every mail clerk into the CEO position of every company and see how well that works out. Just because one guy did it doesn't mean they all can. Again - Michael Jordan was a great basketball player who worked very hard. He was also an awful baseball player who worked very hard.

[Takeda Shingen]

And you may call me Mr. Optimism. :O: Yes, the first step is attempting to pass go to get the $200.00. Sitting on one's thumb accepting their lot in life will not change is not the answer. Sorry guys, I do not know anyone who busted their butt and did not get ahead where they were or moved on to something better. I will never buy any argument that one is caught in a rut.

And see, something doesn't mesh here.

I also never equated lazy people are poor people as well.

So poor people are not poor because they are lazy, only because they are lazy. Come on, man.

[AVGWarhawk]

And see, something doesn't mesh here.



So poor people are not poor because they are lazy, only because they are lazy. Come on, man.

Read it how you like. Hard work never hurt anyone that I'm aware of. And, well, the lazy girl that worked with my daughter is currently unemployed as a result of the not wanting to work. Therefore, she will have less to spend which equates to lazy people can find themselves being poor as well. Works for you?

Answer the question....would you promote the deadwood in your business? Would you give them a raise in pay?

[Takeda Shingen]

Answer the question....would you promote the deadwood in your business? Would you give them a raise in pay?

I don't own a business. I also don't have a business background. I cannot speak from managerial experience because I do not have any.

How do you handle the grade curve in your classroom? It's a trap, AVG. It's not even a particularly good one. You want me to say I'll fire them so you can say "See, I told you." Unfortunately, the issue is that there are millions who are great employees and remain stuck making minimum wage. You can try and duck it all you want, but it's still the fact.

[mookiemookie]

I don't own a business. I also don't have a business background. I cannot speak from managerial experience because I do not have any.

That shouldn't matter. You can be a CEO if you just "work hard".

1. Be a mail clerk
2. Work hard
3. ????
4. Profit!

though you must not no any car detailers because they can make a good deal of money.

$15,000 a year on average. (http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-car+wash+attendant) Wonder how many of them are on the Forbes list.

[Takeda Shingen]

That shouldn't matter. You can be a CEO if you just "work hard".

I know. It's my fault that I am so lazy. I'll go sit in the corner.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't own a business. I also don't have a business background. I cannot speak from managerial experience because I do not have any.

How do you handle the grade curve in your classroom? It's a trap, AVG. It's not even a particularly good one. You want me to say I'll fire them so you can say "See, I told you." Unfortunately, the issue is that there are millions who are great employees and remain stuck making minimum wage. You can try and duck it all you want, but it's still the fact.


Tak, no one would promote or increase pay to anyone who sits on their duff watching the clock. I do not care if you are a teacher or candlestick maker. Logic dictates deadwood gets shown the door, is not promoted or increased in wage. Unless of course there is tenure or a union involved. As a teacher do you want to discuss the teachers that have consistent poor performing students yearly but are there every opening new school year?

[Takeda Shingen]

Tak, no one would promote or increase pay to anyone who sits on their duff watching the clock. I do not care if you are a teacher or candlestick maker. Logic dictates deadwood gets shown the door, is not promoted or increased in wage. Unless of course there is tenure or a union involved. As a teacher do you want to discuss the teachers that have consistent poor performing students yearly but are there every opening new school year?

Okay, so we are back to the fact that the poor are poor becuse they are lazy.

Lazy people perform poorly at work, therefore poor people are lazy. I'm starting to get dizzy from all this circular logic.

[AVGWarhawk]

That shouldn't matter. You can be a CEO if you just "work hard".

1. Be a mail clerk
2. Work hard
3. ????
4. Profit!



$15,000 a year on average. (http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-car+wash+attendant) Wonder how many of them are on the Forbes list.

Mookie, do you ever see any good in the world or your situation? :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Okay, so we are back to the fact that the poor are poor becuse they are lazy.

Lazy people perform poorly at work, therefore poor people are lazy. I'm starting to get dizzy from all this circular logic.

Tak, you are beating a dead horse. But to satiate your question.

Yes, by and large, lazy people do not get ahead and are generally poor as a result. I really do not believe you will find anyone who is doing the bear minimum getting ahead. It is the way of the world. :salute:

Want to talk about tenure and the deadwood teaching kids?

[Takeda Shingen]

Tak, you are beating a dead horse. But to satiate your question.

I am raising it because it is the only argument you are making. It's also false, but I am in no way interested in trying to dissaude you of it. It's your stance and you are happy with it. Just don't go saying it and then claiming that you are saying something else.

Yes, by and large, lazy people do not get ahead and are generally poor as a result. I really do not believe you will find anyone who is doing the bear minimum getting ahead. It is the way of the world. :salute:

Finally. Intellectual honesty has been achieved. My work is done here.

Want to talk about tenure and the deadwood teaching kids?

Sure. Where would you like to start? And let's be sure to include learning disabilities and horrific family lives. Also, understand that you can't just fire your students.

[Hottentot]

As a teacher do you want to discuss the teachers that have consistent poor performing students yearly but are there every opening new school year?

As a teacher in training, I do. How does one relate to the other?

[mookiemookie]

Mookie, do you ever see any good in the world or your situation? :hmmm:

Of course I do. But when someone is called lazy or otherwise denigrated for using their rights to petition for a living wage at their job, it makes me want to call out the people doing the shaming.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sure. Where would you like to start? And let's be sure to include learning disabilities and horrific family lives. Also, understand that you can't just fire your students.

Tak, I have a wife in the school system who works with autistic kids. Throwing out the excuses as to why not is not necessary. I understand a lot.

Finally. Intellectual honesty has been achieved. My work is done here.

Congratulations. Your hard work and perseverance has paid off. People should try that on the job and see how it works out. :O:

[Takeda Shingen]

As a teacher in training, I do. How does one relate to the other?

Homework completion is critical to earning good grades. Generally speaking, 10-year-olds don't like doing homework. Responsble parents are needed to keep the students doing said homework. Without a supportive home life, students fall through the cracks.

In terms of learning disabilities, there are numerous conditions that will limit a student's capacity to sit and learn in a classroom, as well as complete that homework from above. These also influence academic performance.

[AVGWarhawk]

Of course I do. But when someone is called lazy or otherwise denigrated for using their rights to petition for a living wage at their job, it makes me want to call out the people doing the shaming.


Yes, I demand better wages for watching the vat. Well, there is a line of people behind you wanting a job and watching the vat at minimum wage looks to be ok. Reality is something different. It has little to do with laziness. Pay is commensurate with the job at hand.

[AVGWarhawk]

Homework completion is critical to earning good grades. Generally speaking, 10-year-olds don't like doing homework. Responsble parents are needed to keep the students doing said homework. Without a supportive home life, students fall through the cracks.

In terms of learning disabilities, there are numerous conditions that will limit a student's capacity to sit and learn in a classroom, as well as complete that homework from above. These also influence academic performance.

I agree 150%. These need to be accounted for but generally are not when assessing teachers.

[Takeda Shingen]

Tak, I have a wife in the school system who works with autistic kids. Throwing out the excuses as to why not is not necessary. I understand a lot.

Well, that's comforting to know. Your previous statements left me wondering.

[the_tyrant]

I believe that the difference in success and failure is not just how hard you work, but when do you work that hard.

Successful people work hard in the most important times, whereas failures work hard at times when it is not important. My buddy has an older brother who slacked off, got drunk every day, partied every night, went to class high, dropped out of high school. Now he is working his ass off trying to support himself by working two minimum wage jobs.

This other guy I know, he worked hard in school, got into a top university on a scholarship, got into the top program there, and now in his late twenties, he is in a great job at a big bank, makes 100 thousand a year, and he can slack off.

The timing of your hard work is extremely important, timing is probably more important than how hard you work.


Sure. Where would you like to start? And let's be sure to include learning disabilities and horrific family lives. Also, understand that you can't just fire your students.

May I ask what do you teach? I remember you teach something music related.

I did get my grade 10 in piano from the Royal Conservatory of Music. I feel bad for my harmony teachers, painful course to learn, probably a painful course to teach to.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, that's comforting to know. Your previous statements left me wondering.

My point is there are teachers that survive by tenure. My daughter's entire Algebra 1 class failed miserably on the MSA. Who do we hold accountable? Mom and dad? All the kids? The autistic kid in the back?

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe that the difference in success and failure is not just how hard you work, but when do you work that hard.

Successful people work hard in the most important times, whereas failures work hard at times when it is not important. My buddy has an older brother who slacked off, got drunk every day, partied every night, went to class high, dropped out of high school. Now he is working his ass off trying to support himself by working two minimum wage jobs.

This other guy I know, he worked hard in school, got into a top university on a scholarship, got into the top program there, and now in his late twenties, he is in a great job at a big bank, makes 100 thousand a year, and he can slack off.

The timing of your hard work is extremely important, timing is probably more important than how hard you work.




In some instances yes. But it requires hard work at one point none-the-less.

I'm beginning to believe the ant and grasshopper story is overrated.

[gimpy117]

no really, I work 35 hours a week + school full time...and make butt. I'm not lazy, I work on my feet all day. I would say, as a whole the unnamed company i work for (sometimes I think it's more like a Victorian mill), the employees I mean, are working harder than ever....because we just had the Best. First Half. Ever.Period. Yet, as workers we have seen little to no benefits to our situation. We haven't seen anything to help us; hell they won't even buy a stall door for our bathroom! There's cardboard taped over the door! and if anything, they just changed it so the top you will EVER make after raises is just over $10.00/hr (and they wonder why they have a high turnover rate).

I feel like a lot of other Americans feel the same way, These places pay them very little for their effort, rake in the cash and tell their workers they need work harder for less because they company needs them to. and frankly, that frustrates them quite a bit when they need to make a decision over what to eat or paying rent.

[AVGWarhawk]

no really, I work 35 hours a week + school full time...and make butt. I'm not lazy, I work on my feet all day.



Understand completely gimp. I worked 2 jobs while in school. Student from 0800-1200. Auto mechanic from 1300-1800. Security/watchman 2300-0400. I did this for years. I made butt. But it did keep me in beer, grub and place to share with other like students in the same situation. It paid off in the end. I had a good time doing it. I would do it again. My day to day responsibilities were nowhere remotely close to what I have today.

[Hottentot]

Who do we hold accountable?

Does it have to be one person?

[AVGWarhawk]

Does it have to be one person?

Yes. Our local school system created what are called MSA tests. Maryland State Assessment. The entire school is assessed on this test. They also created tests for individual studies. These test assess a single teacher.

It was noted that kids were slipping through and not getting the proper instruction. Teachers were not held accountable. They are held accountable now.

The only problem I have found is they now teach to test and not teach.

[Stealhead]

Does it have to be one person?

Time has a person of the year what they should also have each is year is
person to blame for the year(PTBY) and that person gets the blame for all problems of that year.Your girlfriend dumps you thanks PTBY kid falls and scraps his knee damn you PTBY. Your party did not win the election screw you PTBY. Your car broke down curse you PTBY. Your football team lost PTBY rigged the game.Mid life crisis why PTBY?

[Armistead]

We are subsidizing them.

This study (http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/retail/walmart.pdf) found that the average Wal-Mart worker required $730 in taxpayer-funded healthcare and $1,222 in other forms of assistance, such as food stamps and subsidized housing, per year to get by. Why should the taxpayer pay that? Why shouldn't the employer pay that?

Many conservatives believe in pure capitalism, the employer makes all the rules, gets rich and to heck with employees. American workers fought back against this during the industrial age, unions, etc., and won. The bigger problem now is corporations no longer compete for American workers, they can easily move it all overseas.. The small town I live in is one of the most depressed in our state. It was a large mill town, that paid well with great benefits, now large empty mills abound. Another business closed yesterday, losing 290 jobs....moving overseas. Here, about 50% of kids get free lunch and one in four go hungry. All the nice once small mill towns are slums, filled with illegals and people on welfare.

Many see min wage as a wage for teens living at home or in school, when in fact more adults are making it than kids living at home. Some say if you don't like your job, go find another...good luck with that.

The GOP should be honest, they simply don't care if a large majority of Americans suffer and die without a living wage, medical insurance, etc..
Many would even cut the min. wage rate and have said so.

We had the strongest economy is the world by building a strong middle class, now we're in class warfare because of the GOP is creating an elite corporate class, why our middle class vanishes before our eyes.

The cost of everything is increasing so much that a person can hardly live off $20 an hour, much less min wage. When hard working people can't pay rent, buy food, have insurance, then we pay for it anyway through government programs. The GOP doesn't want to do anything to improve workers rights and would rather people be homeless, starve or die of illness than the government pay for it. The only result will be people taking to the streets, voting in unions, etc.

[AVGWarhawk]

The GOP is responsible for all of this? Do tell how you arrived at this assessment?

[Sailor Steve]

Time has a person of the year
Time Magazine's Person Of The Year award does not go to the nicest or the best person. It goes to the person who had the biggest influence on the news that year, for good or bad. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini was Time's Person Of The Year. So was Adolph Hitler.

[Hottentot]

Yes. Our local school system created what are called MSA tests. Maryland State Assessment. The entire school is assessed on this test. They also created tests for individual studies. These test assess a single teacher.

I'm not saying that bad teachers don't exist, but that's utterly short sighted for the reason you yourself state later:

The only problem I have found is they now teach to test and not teach.

Not only is assessing teachers by grades short sighted for such reason, it also encourages teachers to be more lax on their grading, which is dishonest for the students.


It was noted that kids were slipping through and not getting the proper instruction. Teachers were not held accountable. They are held accountable now.

So fixing the symptom instead of the illness? Who didn't hold the teachers accountable? And by what basis was such decision made? I'd start from there.

Again, bad teachers exist. And at least in here they are noticed by their colleagues far sooner than their students or parents.



Time has a person of the year what they should also have each is year is
person to blame for the year(PTBY) and that person gets the blame for all problems of that year.Your girlfriend dumps you thanks PTBY kid falls and scraps his knee damn you PTBY. Your party did not win the election screw you PTBY. Your car broke down curse you PTBY. Your football team lost PTBY rigged the game.Mid life crisis why PTBY?

I like this idea. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Again, bad teachers exist. And at least in here they are noticed by their colleagues far sooner than their students or parents.

Getting noticed and getting removed are two different things. Tenure allows teachers to stay in the classroom no matter how poorly they teach and students performed when tested. This issue needed to be addressed. Standardized testing was the one best answer.

[Tribesman]

So was Adolph Hitler.
Does this count as doing a Godwin on the topic?

[Takeda Shingen]

My point is there are teachers that survive by tenure. My daughter's entire Algebra 1 class failed miserably on the MSA. Who do we hold accountable? Mom and dad? All the kids? The autistic kid in the back?

If your gripe is about teacher tenure, then I agree with you. If you are stating that standardized testing is the best method to evaluate teacher performance, I would disagree.

[em2nought]

My opinion as to why less people can get by on what they get is that their view of the necessities to live a good life have greatly increased. The greatest generation by and large spent very little, saved a good deal, and paid off their debts quickly. Today people would view that as crazy talk. What no cable tv? Oh, the humanity!

Oh, and there are more lazy people now. I run a mini storage, people that owe money aren't even willing to trade work for rent. So I do the work, and they lose their stuff. From what I saw in the navy about 3 in 10 people worked hard, the rest coasted(even though if asked they think they worked hard) I've go no sympathy. Put the price of my fast food up, and I'll stop eating it, and you'll be out of a job.

[AVGWarhawk]

If your gripe is about teacher tenure, then I agree with you. If you are stating that standardized testing is the best method to evaluate teacher performance, I would disagree.

I do not gripe about tenure. I see it as a poor tool that allows teachers to take the A train without any accountability. Standardized testing is not the best method. It was the one best answer the Board of Ed had. I'm not on the Board of Ed and had no say. I do agree that counting in kids with autism and such should not be allowed.

How would you suggest teachers are graded on performance? You are a teacher. If all students did poorly on an exam on a subject that weeks was spent on is it the kids that are the issue or perhaps the teaching method was not getting through?

[Hottentot]

If your gripe is about teacher tenure, then I agree with you. If you are stating that standardized testing is the best method to evaluate teacher performance, I would disagree.

This. :yep:

[Takeda Shingen]

How would you suggest teachers are graded on performance? You are a teacher. If all students did poorly on an exam on a subject that weeks was spent on is it the kids that are the issue or perhaps the teaching method was not getting through?

You're talking about an exteme case here, but in the case there are likely signs through the teacher's standard classroom evaluations performed by the administration and supervisors that indicate problems with the teacher. I would imagine that no one in the school administration or faculty is surprised at the results. Every teacher and administrator in every building knows who the bad teachers are.

The problem is that the tenure protects poor teachers. Of course, there should be a system in place that protects good teachers from frivolous accusations and complaints. So, I don't know what a good answer is. All I do know is that standardized testing is a poor method for evaluation, as it can damn good teachers as well as bad ones.

[AVGWarhawk]

You're talking about an exteme case here, but in the case there are likely signs through the teacher's standard classroom evaluations performed by the administration and supervisors that indicate problems with the teacher. I would imagine that no one in the school administration or faculty is surprised at the results. Every teacher and administrator in every building knows who the bad teachers are.

The problem is that the tenure protects poor teachers. Of course, there should be a system in place that protects good teachers from frivolous accusations and complaints. So, I don't know what a good answer is. All I do know is that standardized testing is a poor method for evaluation, as it can damn good teachers as well as bad ones.

I agree with teachers/admin knowing who the bad teachers are.
I agree that tenure protects bad teachers.
I agree that good teachers should have some protection. Problem is, who determines what a good teacher is?
I half agree with standardized testing. My two daughters display good grades and smiles from teachers that are reaching them. These teachers that are reaching students normally have a great average on the MSA test. I can always tell when a teacher is not reaching my youngest. She voluntarily stays after school for extra help. Her Algebra 1 teacher is on the hook. A majority of the class performed poorly. As a result, who is accountable? An entire year of 60 some odd students now needing to take Algebra 1 over again? Will these students fair better in Algebra 2 with the resulting poor performance in Algebra 1? Why did a overwhelming amount of students fail this class?

[August]

never meant to provide a living wage :hmmm:

well isn't that the darnedest thing we complain about people living on "the government tit" yet some jobs don't pay a wage you can live on. What are these people supposed to do? Drop a bunch of money for college that *Might* get them a better job? or should they just use some magic spells to make more cash? Lets face it, Either we subsidize people with government money, or we make minimum wage affordable.

I'm one of the minimum wage people, and I assure you It is NOT easy to live on such a low income I'm going to have to make the choice between Buying Food for next or Buying Gas for my car to drive the 200 miles a week I do to get to class

IMO, Minimum wage is a joke. I knew a guy who was hired into my place of work in 2001 at $9.00/hr, while new hires today make the lowest legal

The trouble with you kids is that you expect everything to be handed to you. You don't want to earn your living like every generation that has come before you.

Minimum wage when I was your age was $2.10 per hour. In today's money that is about $6.00. You think I have any sympathy that you can't do it on a third more than that? Well sorry I don't.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and quit whining. Yes I expect you to make those choices. I did, so why can't you?

[AVGWarhawk]

The trouble with you kids is that you expect everything to be handed to you. You don't want to earn your living like every generation that has come before you.

Minimum wage when I was your age was $2.10 per hour. In today's money that is about $6.00. You think I have any sympathy that you can't do it on a third more than that? Well sorry I don't.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and quit whining. Yes I expect you to make those choices. I did, so why can't you?

Can I hug you August? I do remember the $2.10 days. I remember basically groveling at my park maintenance job for .05 cent more per hour raise. I was told I needed to take on more responsibility for that exta $2.00 a week. :shifty:

Nothing like maggot filled trashcans to empty..and it was more than one. Oh, and the soiled kids diapers stuck in the pools filter system was a fun job to clear. I don't want to talk about the used sanitary napkins left behind in the womens room. What a awesome job for $2.10/hour. :rock:

Let's protest. No, lots go find a better job. I did. Started changing tires at Mr. Tire. Worked my way up.

[Stealhead]

The trouble with you kids is that you expect everything to be handed to you. You don't want to earn your living like every generation that has come before you.

Minimum wage when I was your age was $2.10 per hour. In today's money that is about $6.00. You think I have any sympathy that you can't do it on a third more than that? Well sorry I don't.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and quit whining. Yes I expect you to make those choices. I did, so why can't you?


Good question.My grand mother made in 1942 .23 cents an hour that would be $3.13 in modern dollars.I would love to know how many people regardless of income truly live within their means
responsibly that little bit of information would shine a lot of light on the subject of wages.Wants and needs people should be educated on how to live within their means.

There are many things that I want that I do not have but I do have everything that I need to survive and that really is not very much.In the Air Force I had a little side income what I did was loan other people money and changed them a little interest i made a pretty good amount of money doing this thanks to people who get free room and broad,free or very cheap food free medical care yet still can not spend their money in a responsible manner which is fine by me because it just gave me more money and I knew several people that did same the thing such was the market poker players where the best customers.

[mookiemookie]

$2.10 in the 1970s went a lot farther than $7.25 does today. Gas, housing and food was all cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis. Not to mention that in the 70's only about 10% of young people had a college degree. Now it's around 25%. Finding a job that pays a livable wage without a college degree is a lot harder than it was back then.

The idea that "everyone can be rich if they just worked harder" just doesn't work. It's simple math. You can't have a society where every electrician, cop, teacher, construction worker, gardener, waiter, plumber, secretary and everyone else that's needed for society to, you know, function makes $100,000 a year. Telling people that they need to shut the hell up because they're lazy and I pulled myself up by my bootstraps all by myself is a simplistic mindset that ignores the reality of the way the world actually works.

Intentionally conflating the idea of "anyone can be rich" and "everyone can be rich" is bad form.

[August]

$2.10 in the 1970s went a lot farther than $7.25 does today.

No it doesn't. $2.10 in 1977 is the equivalent of $8.02 in 2012 dollars. That's what adjusted for inflation means.

Don't believe me?, punch in the numbers for yourself.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

[Stealhead]

No one is saying that you become wealthy by working harder but you will gain more income by dong so and if not you should find a job elsewhere because something is wrong with the employer in that case assuming that the worker is even half way decent.


Your second paragraph is invalid because no one is saying that everyone will get rich by working hard/well and there are cops,plumbers and electricians that do make over 100k a year right in our very society.I never once saw August say that he was rich.:hmmm:

You can find many thousands of people did just what August did though.

[mookiemookie]

No it doesn't. $2.10 in 1977 is the equivalent of $8.02 in 2012 dollars. That's what adjusted for inflation means.

Don't believe me?, punch in the numbers for yourself.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

The average home price in 1975 was about $38,000, or $163,000 in today's dollars. The average home price today is just under $190,000.

The average cost for a gallon of gas in 1975 was about $0.63 or $2.71 in today's dollars. The average cost for a gallon of gas today is $4.32.

The average cost for a loaf of bread in 1975 was about $0.25 or $1.07 in today's dollars. Today, a loaf of bread is about $2.00.

So $2.10 in 1975 went farther than $7.25 does today.

[Madox58]

Give them what they want!
When burgers go up to $10.00 a piece and the place goes belly up cause no one buys them any more?
They can find another job and screw that up as well!

The service is crap nowdays as it is!
Fast food died along time ago anyway because of lazy arsed workers who think they deserve more for less!

[August]

So $2.10 in 1975 went farther than $7.25 does today.

Assuming that your figures are right and their figures are wrong. Since they base their calculations on the Consumer Price Index and you're basing your calculations on, well I'm assuming you didn't pull them out of thin air.

In any case minimum wage is not and has never been intended to be a living wage, nor has it ever been a living wage in reality. That was true in 1975 and it is still true today.

[mookiemookie]

Assuming that your figures are right and their figures are wrong. Since they base their calculations on the Consumer Price Index and you're basing your calculations on, well I'm assuming you didn't pull them out of thin air.

In any case minimum wage is not and has never been intended to be a living wage, nor has it ever been a living wage in reality. That was true in 1975 and it is still true today.

I as a taxpayer don't like subsidizing WalMart and McDonalds' labor costs. And make no mistake, that's exactly what we're doing when two of the biggest firms in the world, in the richest country in the world, won't pay their employees enough to keep them off of Medicaid and welfare.

Raise the minimum wage to a living wage and people will have more to spend. If people have more to spend, the economy does better. If the economy does better, more jobs are created.

[Stealhead]

Assuming that your figures are right and their figures are wrong. Since they base their calculations on the Consumer Price Index and you're basing your calculations on, well I'm assuming you didn't pull them out of thin air.

In any case minimum wage is not and has never been intended to be a living wage, nor has it ever been a living wage in reality. That was true in 1975 and it is still true today.


This is true here is something of interest living wage calculator for each state and county in the US.in my county the living wage for 1 adult is $8.23 and I know for a fact that most entry level jobs pay that or fairly close to it.

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

[Takeda Shingen]

Give them what they want!
When burgers go up to $10.00 a piece and the place goes belly up cause no one buys them any more?
They can find another job and screw that up as well!

The service is crap nowdays as it is!
Fast food died along time ago anyway because of lazy arsed workers who think they deserve more for less!

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/full_list/101_200.html

McDonald's: Number 107 on the 2012 Fortune 500. Ahead of:

Macy's (110)
Rite Aid (113)
Staples (114)
Northwestern Mutual (116)
Goodyear Tire and Rubber (126)
Xerox (127)
Hartford Financial Services Group (131)
Nike (136)
Exelon (145)

I'm pretty sure they'll be okay. Can't say as much for their employees, but that's never seemed to be much of a concern in American business.

[August]

I'm pretty sure they'll be okay. Can't say as much for their employees, but that's never seemed to be much of a concern in American business.

Depends on who you work for I guess. Not all employers are like that, but employee welfare has never been much of a concern to the consumer either. We're all quite happy to buy that burger as cheaply as possible.

[Takeda Shingen]

Depends on who you work for I guess. Not all employers are like that, but employee welfare has never been much of a concern to the consumer either. We're all quite happy to buy that burger as cheaply as possible.

That's also true.

[the_tyrant]

The average home price in 1975 was about $38,000, or $163,000 in today's dollars. The average home price today is just under $190,000.

The average cost for a gallon of gas in 1975 was about $0.63 or $2.71 in today's dollars. The average cost for a gallon of gas today is $4.32.

The average cost for a loaf of bread in 1975 was about $0.25 or $1.07 in today's dollars. Today, a loaf of bread is about $2.00.

So $2.10 in 1975 went farther than $7.25 does today.

To be fair though, many other prices have gone down (or shall we say did not increase)

For people of my generation, it seems unimaginable that domestic long distance was charged per minute, you had to be crazy to spend 5000$ on a computer with 640 kb, and when it was impossible to get cheap manufactured goods at your closest big box store.

I as a taxpayer don't like subsidizing WalMart and McDonalds' labor costs. And make no mistake, that's exactly what we're doing when two of the biggest firms in the world, in the richest country in the world, won't pay their employees enough to keep them off of Medicaid and welfare.

in my opinions, employers pay what the labor is worth. This is why minimum wage jobs are often the jobs with the least amount of skill required, with the least decision making, and with the least amount of responsibility. From what I hear, a fry cook at MacDonald's don't even "flip burgers" anymore. They press a button, and the top of the grill comes down and "presses" the burger from both sides.

what you have to consider, is how much the labor is worth to employers. how much revenue does this employee bring in? at 10.25$/hour is it worth hiring 2 guys to stand in the isle to help customers? what if the cost increases to 15$/hour? is it still a good idea to hire 2 guys? or would one be enough?

[Madox58]

Depends on who you work for I guess. Not all employers are like that, but employee welfare has never been much of a concern to the consumer either. We're all quite happy to buy that burger as cheaply as possible.

When you hit one of the so-called fast food joints, and Moisha and Darnell are more interested in what Sasha posted on FaceBook rather then taking a freaking order?
Travel like I do and see what the AVERAGE fast food worker is actually doing.
Then pay them what they are worth.

[August]

When you hit one of the so-called fast food joints, and Moisha and Darnell are more interested in what Sasha posted on FaceBook rather then taking a freaking order?
Travel like I do and see what the AVERAGE fast food worker is actually doing.
Then pay them what they are worth.

Exactly. But then again I guess their lack of interest in their job is to be expected since nowadays they grow up being coddled by society into thinking they're "special" and deserve not only a chance to succeed but success itself.

[Madox58]

Average Fast food worker I run into all over the U.S.A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92utho4PjH0

:nope:

[Onkel Neal]

Come on, no one is supposed to make a career out of flipping burgers or washing cars. But it can lead to an MMA career (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pIwN7rtjo0)...

Lol, I'm not going to post a direct link, but if you can stand an avalanche of vulgar language, search MCDONALD'S EMPLOYEE RANT! on YouTube. This person is worth a major bump in pay?

If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune.

[AVGWarhawk]

I as a taxpayer don't like subsidizing WalMart and McDonalds' labor costs. And make no mistake, that's exactly what we're doing when two of the biggest firms in the world, in the richest country in the world, won't pay their employees enough to keep them off of Medicaid and welfare.

Raise the minimum wage to a living wage and people will have more to spend. If people have more to spend, the economy does better. If the economy does better, more jobs are created.

Shop elsewhere. BTW, your idea is simplistic. Just give them more money. They will piss it away on goods. The economy will grow. Same thing the Fed does. Print more money. Give it away. The economy will grow.

[Madox58]

Shop elsewhere.
AHEM MAN BROTHER!
WalMart survives because people SHOP there! DUH!!!
People whine 'Pay them better' but if prices went up?
WalMart goes the way of the old K-Marts and on and on.
Anyone remember the 5 Cousins stores?
Or many of the old 5 and Dimes?

[AVGWarhawk]

$2.10 in the 1970s went a lot farther than $7.25 does today. Gas, housing and food was all cheaper on an inflation adjusted basis. Not to mention that in the 70's only about 10% of young people had a college degree. Now it's around 25%. Finding a job that pays a livable wage without a college degree is a lot harder than it was back then.

The idea that "everyone can be rich if they just worked harder" just doesn't work. It's simple math. You can't have a society where every electrician, cop, teacher, construction worker, gardener, waiter, plumber, secretary and everyone else that's needed for society to, you know, function makes $100,000 a year. Telling people that they need to shut the hell up because they're lazy and I pulled myself up by my bootstraps all by myself is a simplistic mindset that ignores the reality of the way the world actually works.

Intentionally conflating the idea of "anyone can be rich" and "everyone can be rich" is bad form.

My God Mookie, nothing goes right for you. I don't know bud. I worked hard all my life. Two jobs. Both menial. Went to school at the same time. So yes, my experience would indicate hard work pays off. It is not a idea. It's truth you choose to ignore. Sometimes the simplistic idea is the correct idea. And yeah, the wages to cost of living are all relative when comparing the time period of said pay and that cost of living.

[AVGWarhawk]

Come on, no one is supposed to make a career out of flipping burgers or washing cars. But it can lead to an MMA career (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pIwN7rtjo0)...

Lol, I'm not going to post a direct link, but if you can stand an avalanche of vulgar language, search MCDONALD'S EMPLOYEE RANT! on YouTube. This person is worth a major bump in pay?

If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune.

That's just to simplistic. Do I get use of the companies Leer jet?

[Madox58]

Wahh! I can't afford a 50" flat screen TV.
Wahh! I can't afford a new car. (Never EVER had a new car!)
Wahh! I didn't or don't this or that.
WTF??

It's called LIFE! Get use to it! No one promised you a damned thing!
Is it tough? You bet your sweet arse it is!
Is it fair? Well HELL NO!!
You were given a chance when you were born!
That's it! Once you sucked air? It was all up to you.
Blame anyone you want it don't matter and never will.
Blame is the comforter of the 'I could a beens'.
Snuggle up and sleep tight!
:haha:

And where the HELL is my Big Mac?

[Stealhead]

Come on, no one is supposed to make a career out of flipping burgers or washing cars. But it can lead to an MMA career (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pIwN7rtjo0)...

Lol, I'm not going to post a direct link, but if you can stand an avalanche of vulgar language, search MCDONALD'S EMPLOYEE RANT! on YouTube. This person is worth a major bump in pay?

If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune.


:har: I saw that video just now(I think several came up under MCDONALD'S EMPLOYEE RANT!) yeah worthy of a pay raise indeed.This one was a black gay man who dislikes some Russian co-worker that laughs like a hyena.

I think everyone in this video should get at 20% raise the last guy someone should have knocked him out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut9BB1hqEys

[AVGWarhawk]

AHEM MAN BROTHER!
WalMart survives because people SHOP there! DUH!!!
People whine 'Pay them better' but if prices went up?
WalMart goes the way of the old K-Marts and on and on.
Anyone remember the 5 Cousins stores?
Or many of the old 5 and Dimes?

Never heard of 5 Cousins. Five and dimes I remember. Kresgies. Franklin's. Corvettes. All closed due to places like....Walmart! The gorilla in the neighborhood putting folks out of business for years. We shop Target, Sam's and BJ's.

[mookiemookie]

My God Mookie, nothing goes right for you.

Not sure where you're getting that idea. I was lucky enough to a) be born into a family with the financial ability to send me to college, and b) be born into the one time and place in history where people can be paid well for analyzing bond portfolios. I'm not working two jobs or working 70 hours a week, but I'm very comfortable. I'm also not arrogant enough to chalk all of that up purely because I worked hard. There's a large element of luck involved in success. Timing, circumstances and just plain luck are often overlooked when people crow about how hard they work.

So, tsk tsk-ing someone and telling them to just find a better job ignores a economically and socially destructive issue and pins all the blame on the individual and willfully ignores the system. If every McDonalds employee went out and got a degree in astrophysics, McDonalds would still pay them $7.25 an hour, and we'd still be on the hook for their medical care in the form of higher insurance premiums and higher medical bills. Someone's gotta pay for the uninsured. Not to mention they'd be $50,000 in student loan debt with no hope of ever paying it back.

The world only needs so many astrophysicists. It also needs McDonalds employees. Why punish them for that? Why do we need to subsidize McDonalds' labor costs?

Shop elsewhere. BTW, your idea is simplistic. Just give them more money. They will piss it away on goods. The economy will grow. Same thing the Fed does. Print more money. Give it away. The economy will grow.

Spending is the only way it does grow.

[AVGWarhawk]

Luck favors the prepared. Your post is irrelevant. We went through this before. It is the individual that chooses to stay at the job. It is the individual that accepts there is no health insurance offered. How about the individual taking on the responsibility of good decision making concerning accepting a job? Blaming someone else for accepting these things is not the answer. No one is punishing anyone who openly accepts these positions at McD's. If you have such concerns for the guy why not sponsor him and subsidize his pay to a living wage out of your own pocket? If you don't agree with McD then eat somewhere else. As far as subsidizing these folk via taxes I'm astonished you are asking. You seem to be the hand out guy to me. Entitlements R Us. Give everyone healthcare. Free. Pay the vat guy $34.50/hour. He'll spend it on a new Ford. Never mind the kids meal just went up to $18.00 plus tax. No toy. Again, pay is commensurate for the job at hand. I really do think the fast food industry should pay about the same as say a airline pilot. :up:

[mookiemookie]

Luck favors the prepared. Platitudes are fine and all, but you still miss the point. If Bill Gates were born 100 years earlier, there'd be no Microsoft. He was lucky to be born when he was. If Michael Jordan was born 100 years earlier, he wouldn't have been one of the most recognizable faces/names in the world. If Mark Zuckerberg hadn't been born to a family with the financial ability to send him to Exeter and Harvard, there's a strong possibility there'd be no Facebook. So no, luck in many cases is just luck. Your post is irrelevant. Yours is. We went through this before. We have, and yet you still don't get it, so this is my last post on the subject It is the individual that chooses to stay at the job. It is the individual that accepts there is no health insurance offered. Many times because there isn't much choice in the matter. If your choice is have no job and go on welfare and be abject poor, or work at McDonalds, make a little bit of money and still be on welfare, but just be plain poor, I know which one I'd choose. How about the individual taking on the responsibility of good decision making concerning accepting a job? So you people bitch when people are poor and don't have a job, and now you bitch when poor people have a job that makes them working poor. There really is no winning with you, is there? Blaming someone else for accepting these things is not the answer. No one is punishing anyone who openly accepts these positions at McD's. Examining a system that exploits workers and keeps them working poor is a good thing to do. If you have such concerns for the guy why not sponsor him and subsidize his pay to a living wage out of your own pocket? You don't seem to get this - I ALREADY AM. YOU ALREADY ARE. WE ALL ALREADY ARE. The working poor cost the government tons of money every year, money that comes out of the taxpayers' pockets - YOUR POCKET. If you don't agree with McD then eat somewhere else. I don't know how to explain this any better. As far as subsidizing these folk via taxes I'm astonished you are asking. :damn: You seem to be the hand out guy to me. Entitlements R Us. Give everyone healthcare. Free. Single payer healthcare isn't free but it would solve a lot of problems with this. Pay the vat guy $34.50/hour. He'll spend it on a new Ford. Never mind the kids meal just went up to $18.00 plus tax. No toy. Again, pay is commensurate for the job at hand. I really do think the fast food industry should pay about the same as say a airline pilot. :up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma McDonalds could pay their workers a living wage that would preclude them from having to go to the government for welfare and Medicaid. And it's not $34.50 an hour. That's idea's just stupid or willfully ignoring the whole point.

[Tribesman]

Thats unusual, a CAPSLOCK that actually makes the point:up:

[Gerald]

Thats unusual, a CAPSLOCK that actually makes the point:up: A CAPSLOCK,explain I have not been here for several days,:hmmm:

[u crank]

A CAPSLOCK,explain I have not been here for several days,:hmmm:

Typing very loud. :O:

[Gerald]

Typing very loud. :O:Ok! Which I never do, light step is the secret,:)

[u crank]

Ok! Which I never do, light step is the secret,:)

A very good style. Stay calm. :D

[Gerald]

A very good style. Stay calm. :DAlways, the whole weekend has been quiet, with some exceptions,:yep:

[Tribesman]

A CAPSLOCK,explain I have not been here for several days,:hmmm:
Frequently people write in big letters to emphasise their point but instead manage to simply highlight the point of their arguement which doesn't make sense.
In this case it highlighted a valid point instead.

[Gerald]

Frequently people write in big letters to emphasise their point but instead manage to simply highlight the point of their arguement which doesn't make sense.
In this case it highlighted a valid point instead. Thanks,:)

[Sailor Steve]

McDonalds could pay their workers a living wage that would preclude them from having to go to the government for welfare and Medicaid. And it's not $34.50 an hour. That's idea's just stupid or willfully ignoring the whole point.
So, why does the Big Mac I paid fifty cents for in 1970 cost seven times that now?

[yubba]

Want better pay,, get a hair cut, and get a real job if my 99cent Mc double goes up I'll be alittle upset.

[soopaman2]

So the rubes below your scale should just be happy to be relegated to thier crappy lives?

I gots mines! Effffff all you dummies under my social standards! Better you than me!


And you wonder why America revolted against England, they treated us the same way, don't be surprised when it happens again.

God bless the moneyed classes, and screw the stupid, and people who are not me.

We are becoming China faster and faster...

For the corps...Whos the people?

Yeah, laugh now, one day they will get to something or someone you love, then you will comprehend my outrage. (I know alot of you are southern, and capitalism is always good to you ol boys.)

[Sailor Steve]

We shop Target, Sam's and BJ's.
Sam's Club?

That's Wal-Mart.

[August]

So the rubes below your scale should just be happy to be relegated to thier crappy lives?

No we're saying that if you want better pay then get yourself a better job. Take a class, volunteer as an intern, work part time on the weekends learning a trade but don't sit on your butt expecting that a McDonalds job will support you.

And you wonder why America revolted against England...

No we revolted against England basically because they tried to raise taxes. Something you tax and spend Democrats might want to consider.

[yubba]

Ain't no rubes below my scale I'm the lowest of the low if I made two thousand dollars this year I'll be lucky, I work for my self I've been known to hire out to help old folks around their homes for 5 bucks an hour but most of my clients have died off, I would gladly take a job at micky D's so if they don't like what they are getting paid,, they can get a hair cut and get out of the way and let some one else climb the ladder of success,, it is the land of oppurtunity is it not,,and capitalism is the only way,,, we have been builders, merchants, and traders since the dawn of time,,and not till the advent of communism has there been so such misery in the world,, you say we are getting to be like China well look who you voted for,, we use to be number one in the world,, what, we are 7th now that is far from forward ....will the big mac go the way of the twinkie ????? oh guess what I'm not on food stamps yet, or medicade yet,, though I need to go to the VA, the only good thing Obama did,,, was to sign the Camp Le Jeune water act this last fall into law,, either I hit the lottery or I have had my ticket punched I'll find out in time..

[AVGWarhawk]

Sam's Club?

That's Wal-Mart.

Sams' Club is buying bulk. I do not shop Walmart. I have my reasons. Most of the reasons are running carts into the side of my cars in the parking lot. Right after their kids slam their mom's Chevy Impala door into it. Customers walking the isles talking on a cell with a empty cart. The place is a mess.

Target, Sams, BJ's not so much.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, why does the Big Mac I paid fifty cents for in 1970 cost seven times that now?

Don't confuse him. As of his last post he has it all figured out. Luck is just luck. :up: The rest of it including one's experiences and working their way up is just stories. It was always easier back then. :03:

[Armistead]

Sams' Club is buying bulk. I do not shop Walmart. I have my reasons. Most of the reasons are running carts into the side of my cars in the parking lot. Right after their kids slam their mom's Chevy Impala door into it. Customers walking the isles talking on a cell with a empty cart. The place is a mess.

Target, Sams, BJ's not so much.

You making fun of my wifes Impala again....If you go to Walmart, don't drown with your nose stuck so far in the air...:haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

You making fun of my wifes Impala again....If you go to Walmart, don't drown with your nose stuck so far in the air...:haha:


I don't go to Walmart. There are other stores that carry the same product but are less of a mess, a bit more friendly and genuinely care about their business. I don't support the mess of a store found in my neighborhood. It is no different than those that do not support Walmart because of poor health insurance for employees.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhe0BOIrCQw

[Sailor Steve]

I have my reasons.
Ah. Those are good reasons. I don't have a car, so I wouldn't know.

[Gerald]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhe0BOIrCQw My ears,:D

[Gerald]

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/128835890560113262.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

we have been builders, merchants, and traders since the dawn of time

This is incorrect. Men of the Lower Paleolithic (approximately 2.6 million years ago, and where our record of human history begins) were scavengers, and they spent the better part of 1 million years doing it before becoming true hunter-gatherers. 'Permanent' settlements did not appear until the Neolithic (approximately 12,000 years ago), and they would have functioned largely in a manner that would have been considered true communism. The crops grown and game hunted were shared by the community would not have been considered individual property, as barter economies would not develop for several thousand more years, and true currency long after that. So, recite the far-right's line that man's natural state is capitalism is completely inaccurate, as we have spent the overwhelming majority of history as nomadic scavengers and hunters devoid of basic markets and currency.

and not till the advent of communism has there been so such misery in the world

I will wager that this is not true. I have all of history prior to 1917 to back it up too.

[Tribesman]

This is incorrect. Men of the Lower Paleolithic (approximately 2.6 million years ago, and where our record of human history begins) were scavengers, and they spent the better part of 1 million years doing it before becoming true hunter-gatherers.
That is incorrect the earth is 5000 years old and started on a tuesday afternoon

[u crank]

That is incorrect the earth is 5000 years old and started on a tuesday afternoon

Correct. Reason..long weekend. :O:

[Armistead]

This is incorrect. Men of the Lower Paleolithic (approximately 2.6 million years ago, and where our record of human history begins) were scavengers, and they spent the better part of 1 million years doing it before becoming true hunter-gatherers. 'Permanent' settlements did not appear until the Neolithic (approximately 12,000 years ago), and they would have functioned largely in a manner that would have been considered true communism. The crops grown and game hunted were shared by the community would not have been considered individual property, as barter economies would not develop for several thousand more years, and true currency long after that. So, recite the far-right's line that man's natural state is capitalism is completely inaccurate, as we have spent the overwhelming majority of history as nomadic scavengers and hunters devoid of basic markets and currency.




I will wager that this is not true. I have all of history prior to 1917 to back it up too.

It takes a village....

[Gerald]

:hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

It takes a village....

Thanks Hillary. :shifty:

[Takeda Shingen]

Hilary Clinton borrowed the phrase from a 1994 children's book by Jane Cowen-Fletcher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village#Proverb_question

[AVGWarhawk]

I wonder if she will ever quote anything from Grimm.:hmmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm not sure.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, she lives in a fairy tale, so who knows? :sunny:

[Gerald]

I wonder if she will ever quote anything from Grimm.:hmmm: LOL :)