Deaf sound guy; RFB?

[IonicRipper]

Evening skippers!

So i recently started playing SH4 again but this time with RFB + RSRDC and i swear my sound guy is absolutely deaf. I always hear ships on the hydrophone much sooner then he does. Its been a while i played this game so i can't remember if it was this way before i used mods. Any ideas?

[raymond6751]

Hi, apparently the guy is deaf - a game bug. Here is what I received to my recent post about not finding ships:

[quote]
Originally Posted by raymond6751 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1967093#post1967093)
Hi all,

I've been playing SH5 for a while, but just installed SH4 again on my new Win 7 machine.

Previously, I have never had any luck with this version, meaning I never sank a single ship. I never found any!! The Pacific is so large, and the Japs didn't sail much in convoy.

I'm trying with RFB this time.

:hmm2:
[end quote of my message] [quote]
Add RSRD campaing. One little trick, time compression and pop the watch up, when you see a sttuter there is something in range of your sonar, but your men will not detect it, you are your sonarman. [quote]
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/user_offline.gif http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/report.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/report.php?p=1967115) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/quote.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1967115)

[raymond6751]

from Bubblehead729
[quote]
+1 on the game stutter indicating a contact. I was unaware of this little tip too, until I watched WinterOwl's excellent LetsPlay of SH4 on YouTube. But it does work. I know its not very realistic, but, hey, its about finding and sinking ships, right? How are you gonna show off all your awesome targeting skills, if there is nothing to target?
[quote]

Actually, I think you can ask for a report of contacts and get a true response. You just have to remember to ask. One more thing, the Jap escorts are insanely accurate at detecting you. I have found a five degree turn confuses them for a bit. Sneak away in loops, alternating left and right 5 or 10 degree turns.

[msumpsi]

Evening skippers!

So i recently started playing SH4 again but this time with RFB + RSRDC and i swear my sound guy is absolutely deaf. I always hear ships on the hydrophone much sooner then he does. Its been a while i played this game so i can't remember if it was this way before i used mods. Any ideas?

Yes, I am the one that wrote that little trick. If you go to the sensors systems windoe you will see that th range of the WCA sonar is about 6500 yards, which is the distance your men will tell you sonar contacts. The in game range of the sonar is about 20 nm, at which point you can not hear the ships engine but you can see the green light in the sonar stack on. In orther to correct this deficiency, which means that you can go for months in patrols without encountering anything, you can pop up the watch and time compression, 64-1024 is good enough, keep your eyes on the watch ass you do your patrol pattern, or an area were you thing there might be shipping traffic, and wait to see the watch to spot for a moment, it stops because the game is loaing something in your sonar range. It does not matter if you are surfaced or summerged, go to the sonar station and you will fin the ship. Thedigger the sttuter the more things the game is loaing in your sensors range. if you are surfae, then go to periscope deph of course. You will find much more shipping. Its a little of cheating but since the guys are deaf dont fill bad about it.

[msumpsi]

from Bubblehead729
[quote]
+1 on the game stutter indicating a contact. I was unaware of this little tip too, until I watched WinterOwl's excellent LetsPlay of SH4 on YouTube. But it does work. I know its not very realistic, but, hey, its about finding and sinking ships, right? How are you gonna show off all your awesome targeting skills, if there is nothing to target?
[quote]

Actually, I think you can ask for a report of contacts and get a true response. You just have to remember to ask. One more thing, the Jap escorts are insanely accurate at detecting you. I have found a five degree turn confuses them for a bit. Sneak away in loops, alternating left and right 5 or 10 degree turns.

Yeap, i lerand it from the wough i do not playinterowl, the best lets play series i have since so far. Very fun to listen his comments, i you can learn things, althogh i do not play the way he does, i do not use map contacts an i use the TDC an PK.

[IonicRipper]

Thanks for all the replies. So there is really no way to fix the range of the hydrophone detection? Wow... That's disappointing. I was having this problem in an S-boat. Any chance of having more range in a fleet sub?

[fireftr18]

Thanks for all the replies. So there is really no way to fix the range of the hydrophone detection? Wow... That's disappointing. I was having this problem in an S-boat. Any chance of having more range in a fleet sub?

The S boats had an old sonar array and historically, had to be submerged to work. I think stock game simulates this. I know TMO does. The fleet boats sonar array is on the bottom and you can detect while on the surface.

[Armistead]

Imagine a circle around your sub that reaches out to the range of your best sonar, say 20 nms. This is basically the best contact range. The problem or bug with the game is this contact range exist from the beginning of the game, but your sonar will only call out range based on the the type of sonar they have. As your men improve and get better sonar, they will start calling out contacts further away. Towards the end of the war, you'll notice they start calling contacts almost as fast as a group enters your contact zone. You're not limited by sonar values, so you can cheat and always hear to the max best sonar range. Sadly there is no way to set separate contact ranges with each type sonar. I haven't tested it, but maybe by limiting the range of the best sonar, you could shorten the contact circle early war, but the trade of is you would lose that range later war unless you made mods to load with each stage of the game.

Also remember sonar is effected by several other values, sub speed, going below thermal, sub angle, etc. If you're submerged, don't put full trust in your sonar man, but he does a better job if you remember the above. He will get better sonar ranges if you're above the thermal, going slow, etc. If you play with cams off, it helps to make some turns, as it seems to help the sonar man pick out nearest warship. If an escort is going faster, your sonar man tends to pick that up first as a nearer escort, even if a slower escort is closer to you. When I have cams off and approaching for an attack, I constantly hit follow nearest warship. If he calls out fast approaching, most likely I've been found out and can be prepared.

If you play with cams off and you can't see what's going on after an attack, don't assume there's nothing up there as often a escort will stop sit and listen. Make sure you clear your baffles. Have your scope already up when you hit scope depth so you'll get a visual. Many make the mistake of thinking the group is long gone and surface only to find a sleeper escort waiting.

Course people have used the stutter trick for years, but be careful with it. Often if it's only one or two ships it doesn't place that much of a load on your PC to notice and you may run into a single armed merchant and get blasted before you get TC down. The better and faster your PC, the less stutter you will notice. With large groups stutter is rather obvious.

If you play with cams off and stuck in the sub, crank up sound, you can hear a lot through the subs hull. You will hear much better if you look up at the ceiling. I use surround sound speakers, which also helps to locate what direction they're coming. When you hear an escort making a run on you and what direction, you can better evade.

Cams off is a great way to play...

[IonicRipper]

What if i unchecked realistic sensors in the difficulty menu?
I don't mind sacrificing a bit of realism to make the game more enjoyable but at the same time i don't want it too be too far from reality.

[Armistead]

What if i unchecked realistic sensors in the difficulty menu?
I don't mind sacrificing a bit of realism to make the game more enjoyable but at the same time i don't want it too be too far from reality.

That has more to do with the enemy sensors. To be honest, I don't know by unchecking it if it would change the sensor settings in RFB or not, I suspect not.
RFB has a rather easy AI compared to TMO, but I suspect a tad harder than stock.

You could make yourself a small mod increasing hydrophone values and adjusting other values that effect how sonar picks up ships.

[IonicRipper]

You're right, i saw no difference with or without it.

[msumpsi]

Thanks for all the replies. So there is really no way to fix the range of the hydrophone detection? Wow... That's disappointing. I was having this problem in an S-boat. Any chance of having more range in a fleet sub?

Nop, you have the same problem with all fleet boats.

[msumpsi]

Imagine a circle around your sub that reaches out to the range of your best sonar, say 20 nms. This is basically the best contact range. The problem or bug with the game is this contact range exist from the beginning of the game, but your sonar will only call out range based on the the type of sonar they have. As your men improve and get better sonar, they will start calling out contacts further away. Towards the end of the war, you'll notice they start calling contacts almost as fast as a group enters your contact zone. You're not limited by sonar values, so you can cheat and always hear to the max best sonar range. Sadly there is no way to set separate contact ranges with each type sonar. I haven't tested it, but maybe by limiting the range of the best sonar, you could shorten the contact circle early war, but the trade of is you would lose that range later war unless you made mods to load with each stage of the game.

Also remember sonar is effected by several other values, sub speed, going below thermal, sub angle, etc. If you're submerged, don't put full trust in your sonar man, but he does a better job if you remember the above. He will get better sonar ranges if you're above the thermal, going slow, etc. If you play with cams off, it helps to make some turns, as it seems to help the sonar man pick out nearest warship. If an escort is going faster, your sonar man tends to pick that up first as a nearer escort, even if a slower escort is closer to you. When I have cams off and approaching for an attack, I constantly hit follow nearest warship. If he calls out fast approaching, most likely I've been found out and can be prepared.

If you play with cams off and you can't see what's going on after an attack, don't assume there's nothing up there as often a escort will stop sit and listen. Make sure you clear your baffles. Have your scope already up when you hit scope depth so you'll get a visual. Many make the mistake of thinking the group is long gone and surface only to find a sleeper escort waiting.

Course people have used the stutter trick for years, but be careful with it. Often if it's only one or two ships it doesn't place that much of a load on your PC to notice and you may run into a single armed merchant and get blasted before you get TC down. The better and faster your PC, the less stutter you will notice. With large groups stutter is rather obvious.

If you play with cams off and stuck in the sub, crank up sound, you can hear a lot through the subs hull. You will hear much better if you look up at the ceiling. I use surround sound speakers, which also helps to locate what direction they're coming. When you hear an escort making a run on you and what direction, you can better evade.

Cams off is a great way to play...

Sorry but i disagree, i got my crew sonar men to incredible skilled levels and improve sonar devices and they still are have deaf. Besides, the watchmen the same, excpet for the planes they are half blind, even with 3 guys in each rotation above 80 sensory skill, i see the ships smoke, the black shawod in the water and the top masts long before they tell me ship spotted. At least the coul say smoke in the horizon. I use RFB/RSRD. Maybe TMO is different.

[msumpsi]

That has more to do with the enemy sensors. To be honest, I don't know by unchecking it if it would change the sensor settings in RFB or not, I suspect not.
RFB has a rather easy AI compared to TMO, but I suspect a tad harder than stock.

You could make yourself a small mod increasing hydrophone values and adjusting other values that effect how sonar picks up ships.


I have to disagree again, sorry. TMO has unrealistc AI sensors, but they are not partitucarly good when dropping deph charges. Only thing is they force you to spend hours with them on top of you, which is boring. The way ships sink in TMO is like stones, they go down in 30 seconds. RFB forces you to be near the surface for much longer, and thus you become very vulnerable to escorts and planes. I play by the standar that if you o not see the ship sink or very badly damaged it does not count to me as a sunk ship. All i can say is I hit it, that is my report, and i do not pay attention to the sink message.

[BigWalleye]

In RFB, unless you see it sink or hear it sink, I believe you don't get credit. I crippled a 7000 tonner with three hits, then folks got unfriendly and I had to leave. No score. And, yes, in RFB they do take a lot longer to go down.

I don't believe I have the problems you report with poor quality crews, though. My guys seem to do a pretty good job of detecting contacts. Don't know why there would be any difference.

[Armistead]

I have to disagree again, sorry. TMO has unrealistc AI sensors, but they are not partitucarly good when dropping deph charges. Only thing is they force you to spend hours with them on top of you, which is boring. The way ships sink in TMO is like stones, they go down in 30 seconds. RFB forces you to be near the surface for much longer, and thus you become very vulnerable to escorts and planes. I play by the standar that if you o not see the ship sink or very badly damaged it does not count to me as a sunk ship. All i can say is I hit it, that is my report, and i do not pay attention to the sink message.

I haven't played RFB in ...oh 3 years. To be honest even though I use TMO, I have tweaked it so much and with other mods I use of my own it's much different. However, I recall the AI being so easy I switched to TMO.
After playing TMO a year or so, it became too easy. It's not about being a great player, but with any game, once you learn how the AI responds, you can easily defeat it. I never had a problem dying with RFB, but found the escorts in TMO deadly droppers if you didn't evade properly, moreso later war.

If you guys are saying you have to see or hear a ship sink in RFB to get credit, I don't recall that. I recall longer sinking times, sometimes a day, but I always got credit for what I regardless if I saw it. To my knowledge no one has been able to mod that effect as it's been discussed numerous times. Confirm it and I may have to look into the files again as I would like that effect myself.

[Armistead]

Sorry but i disagree, i got my crew sonar men to incredible skilled levels and improve sonar devices and they still are have deaf. Besides, the watchmen the same, excpet for the planes they are half blind, even with 3 guys in each rotation above 80 sensory skill, i see the ships smoke, the black shawod in the water and the top masts long before they tell me ship spotted. At least the coul say smoke in the horizon. I use RFB/RSRD. Maybe TMO is different.

Visuals suck with both mods to the extent your crew can't see what you can. I agree your crew should be able to see smoke on the horizon, but smoke isn't a hard object that can be spotted. One issue I had with TMO is that the Japs visual AI was as good or better than my crew and with longer gun range, they can spot and shoot you from 5-6nms' away. Also you env. mod or settings have great impact on sensor values. I use my own env. mod and constantly tweaking sensors to env to find a better balance. I've got my crew spotting fairly good, least they get visual before the japs do, about 10 nm's on a clear day.

[IonicRipper]

I've been trying not to use the stutter trick but unfortunately its not something i had a say in this evening. I was doing hydrophone sweeps every hour then i saw the famous stutter at 1024 TC and as expected, there was a sound contact. Then started the game of cat and mouse which lasted at least an hour (my time) and ended up hitting her with 2 torpedoes on the port side.

I also learned the hard way that my watch crew is blind as well :(

[TorpX]

I've been trying not to use the stutter trick but unfortunately its not something i had a say in this evening. I was doing hydrophone sweeps every hour then i saw the famous stutter at 1024 TC and as expected...
...I also learned the hard way that my watch crew is blind as well :(
At 1024x, TC small wonder. You can't really expect the game sensor routines to work well at 1024. Time warping at 1024x, in enemy waters, is just asking for trouble, IMO.

[msumpsi]

I haven't played RFB in ...oh 3 years. To be honest even though I use TMO, I have tweaked it so much and with other mods I use of my own it's much different. However, I recall the AI being so easy I switched to TMO.
After playing TMO a year or so, it became too easy. It's not about being a great player, but with any game, once you learn how the AI responds, you can easily defeat it. I never had a problem dying with RFB, but found the escorts in TMO deadly droppers if you didn't evade properly, moreso later war.

If you guys are saying you have to see or hear a ship sink in RFB to get credit, I don't recall that. I recall longer sinking times, sometimes a day, but I always got credit for what I regardless if I saw it. To my knowledge no one has been able to mod that effect as it's been discussed numerous times. Confirm it and I may have to look into the files again as I would like that effect myself.


You are right, the game tells you ship sunk and accounts for it even if you do not know if you sunk it. But, since this is unrealistic and allows you to put the fish in the water and go deep, i force myself to be in PD until i see that is badly damge or hit. If you ply it that way you are much more exposed because once you are spotted you better go deep, which you can not do if you have to get credit for the sinking. That makes the game harder. I agree that RFB ASW AI is not very good, but on the other side, then you can play TMO and just attack lonely mrechants to not be at any risk. That encourages even more to forget about TF and convoys and just sink lonely merchants since the risk-regard is not worth it. I have not been able to succesfully use TDC and PK to hit 2 ships in a convoy yet in sh4 (playing wiht everything off, no ext cam, no map contacs, and everything esle). So i do not see much point in attacking a convoy to sink 1 ship in TMO versus attacking a lonlely merchant. That assuming you want to survive the whole war which is my actual goal. But yes, i am starting to find ASW in RFB a little to easy, but at the same time that allows me to take more risks against TFs and convoys.

I will change to TMO eventually, i have played already some patrols, but i think the balance would be something in between the 2.

[Bilge_Rat]

Sorry but i disagree, i got my crew sonar men to incredible skilled levels and improve sonar devices and they still are have deaf. Besides, the watchmen the same, excpet for the planes they are half blind, even with 3 guys in each rotation above 80 sensory skill, i see the ships smoke, the black shawod in the water and the top masts long before they tell me ship spotted. At least the coul say smoke in the horizon. I use RFB/RSRD. Maybe TMO is different.

SH 3/4 were designed with the philisophy that it should reward players for making an extra effort, so the player will spot ships before the AI does. However, it is easy to tweak the visual settings so your crew will spot smoke on the horizon before you do. I seem to recall there was a discussion about this in one of the RFB threads.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have to disagree again, sorry. TMO has unrealistc AI sensors, but they are not partitucarly good when dropping deph charges. Only thing is they force you to spend hours with them on top of you, which is boring. The way ships sink in TMO is like stones, they go down in 30 seconds. RFB forces you to be near the surface for much longer, and thus you become very vulnerable to escorts and planes. I play by the standar that if you o not see the ship sink or very badly damaged it does not count to me as a sunk ship. All i can say is I hit it, that is my report, and i do not pay attention to the sink message.

Having played both RFB and TMO extensively, the difference in the sensors and AI is one of degree. Both are "realistic" within the limitations of the game.

The enemy AI in SH3/4 is like an on/off switch, either it does not "see" you and ignores you or it "sees" you and tries to kill you. Ducimus had a thread on the "uber AI" which explains this very well.

It is very easy to tweak the enemy AI so it will kill you with extreme efficiency every time. TMO's "Bungo Pete" gives you a taste of that. However, that is not very realistic or "fun" over the long term. Therefore the trick is to tweak the AI so it sorts of behave in a realistic human fashion.