View Full Version : Opinion! An Imperfect God
Is God perfect? You often hear philosophers describe “theism” as the belief in a perfect being — a being whose attributes are said to include being all-powerful, all-knowing, immutable, perfectly good, perfectly simple, and necessarily existent (among others). And today, something like this view is common among lay people as well.
There are two famous problems with this view of God. The first is that it appears to be impossible to make it coherent. For example, it seems unlikely that God can be both perfectly powerful and perfectly good if the world is filled (as it obviously is) with instances of terrible injustice. Similarly, it’s hard to see how God can wield his infinite power to instigate alteration and change in all things if he is flat-out immutable. And there are more such contradictions where these came from.
The second problem is that while this “theist” view of God is supposed to be a description of the God of the Bible, it’s hard to find any evidence that the prophets and scholars who wrote the Hebrew Bible (or “Old Testament”) thought of God in this way at all. The God of Hebrew Scripture is not depicted as immutable, but repeatedly changes his mind about things (for example, he regrets having made man). He is not all-knowing, since he’s repeatedly surprised by things (like the Israelites abandoning him for a statue of a cow). He is not perfectly powerful either, in that he famously cannot control Israel and get its people to do what he wants. And so on.
http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/24stone-godart-tmagArticle-1.jpg
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/an-imperfect-god/?src=me&ref=general
:o
Note: November 25, 2012
Cybermat47
11-27-12, 10:31 PM
Well, we can't trust whoever wrote the Bible, seeing as it was them, not God, who said 'Gays will burn in hell'.
Well, we can't trust whoever wrote the Bible, seeing as it was them, not God, who said 'Gays will burn in hell'.
dig it. :up:
Armistead
11-28-12, 12:46 AM
If God exist, I'm not sure how anyone can claim they know who he is. The world is filled with beliefs in God, each is right, the others wrong. Worse, even if you're sincere in your beliefs, if you're wrong, it's off to eternal torture. Admit it or not, most of us accept and follow the beliefs of the culture we're born into. Hard for me to accept a God that would eternally damn every sincere Muslim, Hindu, etc..
Seems to me man designs God to fit his cultural experience.
The bible is a hard way to know God. It you study how it was made, you know what you're reading has 1000's of additions, deletions, etc. We have no original scripts, just 1000's of copies of copies, each being changed. We know several of the NT books were not written by the said author. It's clear man changed it so much to create doctrine to fit the culture of that period for 100's of years.
Still, I like to remain humble. I follow God by my heart. more than I do words written by others. I refuse to live and judge others by a cultural code written by man to control others. Most belief systems have caused so much evil, I find it hard to see God in any of them. If God is really the way most religions portray him, I wouldn't want anything to do with him.
GoldenRivet
11-28-12, 12:53 AM
i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.
I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.
I also believe every religion known to man has it figured more or less wrong.
Where religion loses me is in the 2 concepts that most all religions subscribe to that is:
1. our people have been chosen over your people for God's favoritism
2. if you dont become one of our people and do as our camp says you will suffer _______ (insert bad thing for eternity after you die)
lets face it, there are some pretty big offenders here. Christianity and Islam are way up at the tippy top of the list, I'll certainly be the first to admit it.
I think of God as the parent of mankind, God loves us, wants us to be happy and successful and achieve greatness just like a parent would. But the thing about parents is even though they love their children, and even though they want all this good stuff for their children, kids grow up to be adults. and they need the parent less and less - for guidance, advice, a shoulder to cry on whatever - with each passing year. I'll always love my parents, I'll always respect the lessons i have learned from them... but, as an adult, i am weened from them and have developed into my own man.
much like an individual, mankind has a fate, and in order to realize that destiny, mankind has to outgrow its obsessions with religion.
We have had a unique journey as a race of beings. Early rumblings of thunder and day and night, the stars in the sky, clouds, rain... we had no way of understanding these things in our infancy and we created explanations of our own that made sense to us.
Only later in our fledgling years did we discover the angry monster throwing down streaks of fire in the sky is really just charged particles releasing large amounts of static electricity.
The great mystery in life will always be, what comes afterwards. Mankind has struggled with death since the very first of our loved ones ceased to be.
Which religion is correct?
What really happens when we die?
Are the muslims right? or the Christians? How about the Budists? the athiests?
Is heaven real? or is this life just preparing our souls for transcendence into another plane of existence that nobody has even considered theorizing about yet?
men have died and discovered the answers to these questions
trouble is, they arent talking.
i have grown to enjoy this quote
"This is my simple religion, there is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is the temple, the philosophy is kindness."
i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.
Cybermat47
11-28-12, 01:17 AM
@vendor
You're absolutely right!
Let's make it a religion!
Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?
Catfish
11-28-12, 03:55 AM
Also, there was not one god according even to the Thora, only one of the gods who made the deal with his chosen folks that they should only pray to HIM.
And, not to forget, God had a wife. This has just been conveniently forgotten, by the patriarch religious leaders and dumbnuts (=same).
No this is no joke, i am just dumbfounded again and again by especially christian fanatics who obviously never even read the bible lol.
It is certainly easier to have other people interprete it for you, and then tell you how you have to behave, to evade beheading by other nice humans, believing in the same god with another name. :)
@vendor
You're absolutely right!
Let's make it a religion!
Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?Amen.
Karle94
11-28-12, 08:35 AM
God said he would send all the wicked people to hell.
Thor said he would destroy all the frost giants.
I don`t see any frost giants around.
AVGWarhawk
11-28-12, 08:58 AM
God said he would send all the wicked people to hell.
Thor said he would destroy all the frost giants.
I don`t see any frost giants around.
Can we conclude then that Thor exists? :hmmm:
Can we conclude then that Thor exists? :hmmm:
I saw him on TV, must be true. :yep:
http://files.sgsaveproject-sg1.webnode.cz/200000331-c6991c792e/20080329165912!Thor.jpg
Ah the Asgard, Yoo gotta love those guys! :arrgh!:
Cheers
Gary
Edit spelt ma name wrong.... DOH!
Sailor Steve
11-28-12, 10:33 AM
i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.
I'm just the opposite. I was brought up as a nothing, not believing one way or another. Then I was a Christian - or at least I believed so. There's always that nagging little "If you don't believe now, how can you be sure that your 'belief' was ever real?"
I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.
I don't see any, and I have to wonder if "signs" are only seen by those who want to see them...or if they're not seen by those who don't want to seen them.
As for your dissertation on the problem with religions, without quoting it I'll just say that I agree.
I think of God as the parent of mankind, God loves us, wants us to be happy and successful and achieve greatness just like a parent would.
I used to feel that way, but of course it's hard to think of God that way when you're not sure there even is one.
much like an individual, mankind has a fate, and in order to realize that destiny, mankind has to outgrow its obsessions with religion.
I'm not sure that's true. I wonder sometimes if mankind spends his days looking for a reason, and the horrible truth is that there is no reason, everything just is.
The great mystery in life will always be, what comes afterwards. Mankind has struggled with death since the very first of our loved ones ceased to be.
And never found an answer; at least not one he could prove.
Which religion is correct?
Where moral and life teachings are concerned? Most of them. Where God is concerned? Who knows?
What really happens when we die?
All I can say for certain is that I'm in no hurry to find out.
Are the muslims right? or the Christians? How about the Budists? the athiests?
Questions I ask every time the subject comes up. Of course none of them can prove they're right, but they all enjoy showing where the others are wrong.
Is heaven real? or is this life just preparing our souls for transcendence into another plane of existence that nobody has even considered theorizing about yet?
Or is this life all there is, and there is no "soul" and no "preparing"?
men have died and discovered the answers to these questions
Or not, as the case may be.
trouble is, they arent talking.
Isn't that always the trouble?
i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.
Many years ago there was a semi-humorous newspaper comic strip called 'Rick O'Shay', about an Old-West marshall. All the characters had spoof names. His girlfriend was a saloon-girl named Miss Gaye Abandon. Her nephew, who lived with her, was called Quyat Burp. His best friend was a gunslinger named Hipshot Percussion. Every year Stan Lynde, the strip's creator, did a variation on the same theme. As a boy I always loved those strips, and though off-topic I think they speak to the same themes you wrote about here.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Rick_OShay_-_EASTER_-_prints_Feb_19_2008_011.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Christmas.jpg
Sorry to pick apart your post that way, especially when I know you were only philosophizing and theorizing, honestly thinking out loud as it were. You just said so much that I agree with that I had to do a little philosophizing of my own.
Very eloquently Steve ... many questions and concerns were properly by past now,:sunny:
Steve,is our new god, and he does wonders and miracles, :rock:
Armistead
11-28-12, 03:43 PM
Steve,is our new god, and he does wonders and miracles, :rock:
I'll remain an atheist if Steve is the new God.
nikimcbee
11-28-12, 03:58 PM
Can we conclude then that Thor exists? :hmmm:
Yes
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/77/57/1351939939_8229_Peterson.jpg
Jimbuna
11-28-12, 04:01 PM
Yes
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/77/57/1351939939_8229_Peterson.jpg
So who is that?
nikimcbee
11-28-12, 04:06 PM
So who is that?
Father, forgive Jim, as he knoweth not what he saith.
That would be Purple Jesus.
If you're Anglican:
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01599/ba_main_1599431a.jpg
Geordie Jesus?
Jimbuna
11-28-12, 04:07 PM
Father, forgive Jim, as he knoweth not what he saith.
That would be Purple Jesus.
If you're Anglican:
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01599/ba_main_1599431a.jpg
Cheeky bugga!! http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8586/smacka1.gif
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2772/thumbsupgv0.gif
Sailor Steve
11-28-12, 05:08 PM
I'll remain an atheist if Steve is the new God.
Me too. :sunny:
Jimbuna
11-28-12, 05:12 PM
Goodnight and 'God Bless' :sunny:
Skybird
11-28-12, 05:23 PM
when you capitalise the word "God", there is no arbitrariness in what idol is being referred to, it is the hero of the monotheistic desert tradition as presented in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic culture. Other deities or pantheons would be referred to as "gods" with small "g" at the beginning.
Capitalised "God" thus almost equals a personal name, making identification simple. Thus: "God" is not just like any other god(s). Other gods are not "God". The capitalized "God" always is Jewish, Christian or Islamic. Never Egyptian, Nordic, or Greek.
God of the monotheistic desert tradition is seen a perfect deity. This is usually also illustrated in dictionaries, that usally describe "God" as perfect, too. For example:
Definition of GOD
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
Examples of GOD:
Does she believe in God?
I pray to God that no one was seriously injured in the accident.
the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
a myth about the god of war
an offering for the gods
a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix
Thus, either Vendor changes the thread headline to "An imperfect god", indicating that he speaks about deities and idols in general and could pick out just any of the many figures flying around, or he leaves his headline's god capitalized for sure (=God), revealing it to be self-contradictory and making no sense. One could also say his question expresses a doubt that is indeed offensive.
:O:
This time you really messed it up big time, you pitiful sinna of a Vendor, you will burn in hell for your härrässie! :D
Skybird
11-28-12, 05:29 PM
I'll remain an atheist if Steve is the new God.
I turned atheist when I learned he is not. :D
Stealhead
11-28-12, 05:30 PM
I always had the impression that most religions with gods that they all originated from one like Zeus for example he was the father of all the other Greek gods and goddesses.So in effect they all believe/ed in some "ultimate" God.And the Egyptians had four "creator" gods.
By the way the popular most God,god, goodness throughout history is Isis.
Religion is always the reflection of ones culture.
Skybird
11-28-12, 05:36 PM
I always had the impression that most religions with gods that they all originated from one like Zeus for example he was the father of all the other Greek gods and goddesses.So in effect they all believe/ed in some "ultimate" God.And the Egyptians had four "creator" gods.
By the way the popular most God,god, goodness throughout history is Isis.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek - a woman...!!!!
Stealhead
11-28-12, 05:42 PM
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek - a woman...!!!!
:yeah:
Twin Screws
11-28-12, 05:59 PM
I am a believer, my belief is that all gods are man made fairytales that are intended to belittle & control the masses, therefore 'GOD' does not exist, I have never in my 59+ years on this planet, seen any proof to the contrary & until I do I will just carry on smiling at the poor deluded who need religion to prop them up like a crutch. :cool:
u crank
11-28-12, 06:07 PM
The Bible is a collection of writings about God. It was written about two to four thousand years ago by people who had no knowledge of science and knew little about what was going on in other parts of the world. I think our expectations about the accuracy and even the intent are a little high. If you believe in God and think that this book is an infallible and final picture of who God is you are required to set aside much of what we have learned about science, history and human philosophy. I can't do that.
I believe in a Creator and would call myself a Christian. I have been one for almost thirty years. I would be the first to admit that my views have changed a lot. Not about God, but about those who claim to speak for Him.
Who speaks for God?
Not me.
Still, I like to remain humble. I follow God by my heart. more than I do words written by others. I refuse to live and judge others by a cultural code written by man to control others. Most belief systems have caused so much evil, I find it hard to see God in any of them. If God is really the way most religions portray him, I wouldn't want anything to do with him.
i consider myself Christian by my upbringing. I'll put that up front.
I believe there are signs of intelligent design all over the world and even in the universe.
i think any one true God wouldnt want all the grandiose nonsense and fanfare... God would just want mankind to love one another and be kind. and anytime you do the right thing... anytime you hold the door for someone and smile to brighten the day of another, you practice that religion.
These two quotes to me represent a far more reasonable view of God than the strict line of the so called 'fundamentalists' and 'religious hard-liners' who condemn anyone who does not agree with them. As I get older I have come to believe that this is the true path. Kindness and humility.
Thanks for holding that door GR.
@vendor
You're absolutely right!
Let's make it a religion!
Anybody wanna join The Church of Common Sense, and become a Nice Person?
If you make Common Sense a religion then wouldn't that mean government would no longer be able to display what little of it they have left?
Skybird
11-28-12, 06:17 PM
Some pralinés from my doc-file with most favorite quotes:
Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one. - Richard Dawkins
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in a quite different world. - Christopher Hitchens.
Because most religions offer no valid mechanism by which their core beliefs can be tested and revised, each new generation of believers is condemned to inherit the superstitions and tribal hatreds of its predecessors. - Sam Harris
A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes. - James Feibleman
Takeda Shingen
11-28-12, 06:33 PM
We all can throw insulting quotes around until the proverbial cows come home. See? Isn't this fun?
A disbelief in God does not result in a belief in nothing; disbelief in God usually results in a belief in anything. -- Arthur Lynch
The three great apostles of practical atheism, that make converts without persecuting, and retain them without preaching, are wealth, health and power. -- C C Colton
There is no being eloquent for atheism. In that exhausted receiver the mind cannot use its wings,- the clearest proof that it is out of its element. --Hare
It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. -- Francis Bacon
I often wonder where this sort of antagonistic vitriol gets mankind. I also find myself questioning if people, both religious and humanist alike, really want to resolve their problems. It seems at points more likely that they wish to destroy each other and will burn the world down at the chance to do so. Our dear, soaring friend I see as a perfect example of this mindset.
I meet people who like to express that they have God on their side, let it just be them self-satisfaction, and the satisfaction when they need it, and believe me, some pray to god love openly.
CaptainHaplo
11-28-12, 07:19 PM
Sad. Really sad.
Someone want to try and say this thread didn't just start for the sheer pleasure of deriding the beliefs of those are monotheistic?
Yea ok.
Look at the opening post - and tell me that it had some other purpose.
^What is your opinion, and relationship to God...if ya want to tell of course :hmmm:
^What is your opinion, and relationship to God...if ya want to tell of course :hmmm:
Hey give some to get some. Before you start asking for reports, why don't you post your feelings on the subject for a change?
when you capitalise the word "God", there is no arbitrariness in what idol is being referred to, it is the hero of the monotheistic desert tradition as presented in the Jewish, Christian and Islamic culture. Other deities or pantheons would be referred to as "gods" with small "g" at the beginning.
Capitalised "God" thus almost equals a personal name, making identification simple. Thus: "God" is not just like any other god(s). Other gods are not "God". The capitalized "God" always is Jewish, Christian or Islamic. Never Egyptian, Nordic, or Greek.
God of the monotheistic desert tradition is seen a perfect deity. This is usually also illustrated in dictionaries, that usally describe "God" as perfect, too. For example:
Thus, either Vendor changes the thread headline to "An imperfect god", indicating that he speaks about deities and idols in general and could pick out just any of the many figures flying around, or he leaves his headline's god capitalized for sure (=God), revealing it to be self-contradictory and making no sense. One could also say his question expresses a doubt that is indeed offensive.
:O:
This time you really messed it up big time, you pitiful sinna of a Vendor, you will burn in hell for your härrässie! :D Skybird! You should bear in mind that I did not change the conditions of this article, but I took it as it was, and then you interpret it to their satisfaction must be for you, your words are not relevant to me in this context, and you I think this is offensive in my way when I post a topic, the list of words that you choose to spit on me can be made longer, and that you then think that I will burn in hell, there is only weak people who use such words, unfortunately, this has had a negative spiral for you, I can not take you seriously anymore, you should consider your future with the right choice words in conversations and postings.
Hey give some to get some. Before you start asking for reports, why don't you post your feelings on the subject for a change? There is no problem,"for a change"I am happy to share myself with my experience, which I do often, maybe it's that you have not seen it.
Skybird
11-28-12, 08:43 PM
Skybird! You should bear in mind that I did not change the conditions of this article, but I took it as it was, and then you interpret it to their satisfaction must be for you, your words are not relevant to me in this context, and you I think this is offensive in my way when I post a topic, the list of words that you choose to spit on me can be made longer, and that you then think that I will burn in hell, there is only weak people who use such words, unfortunately, this has had a negative spiral for you, I can not take you seriously anymore, you should consider your future with the right choice words in conversations and postings.
Calm down. Wouldn't you think that it is a contradiction when an atheist like me wishes somebody to burn in hell...? ;) Atheists do not believe in hellfire... I was pulling your leg, hothead, so cool down.
The thing with the capital and small G in god versus God, is fact.
And the last sentences - maybe it got lost in translation for you, but I was pulling your leg, you pitiful sinner of a Vendor, you! :D
Sorry if you got it wrong, but after having reread my post three times I still think that the irony there should be obvious.
And now continue to roast on small flame, will ya? :03:
:salute:
There is no problem,"for a change"I am happy to share myself with my experience, which I do often, maybe it's that you have not seen it.
and?
and? What do you want to hear?
CaptainHaplo
11-28-12, 08:57 PM
^What is your opinion, and relationship to God...if ya want to tell of course :hmmm:
My relationship to God is my own (though I have made no secret that I believe in Christ) - and has nothing to do with the fact that the OP is simply a shot at those who choose a monothiestic faith.
I would take issue with it if it singled out those who chose a pantheistic faith as well. Or if it mocked athiests or agnostics.
A thread starting out simply saying why one group of people are fools based on their desire to believe as they choose has no place here in my view. I was under the impression that the rules also prohibit such.
What do you want to hear?
Why the same thing that you're asking Hap of course. "Give some to get some".
Why the same thing that you're asking Hap of course. "Give some to get some". That with my role as one of law men, encounter problems when people puts behind bars, pleading to his god to get fair treatment, (which they obviously will get,no matter what faith he or she has) proves part their faith, but also despair of the situation.
That with my role as one of law men, encounter problems when people puts behind bars, pleading to his god to get fair treatment, (which they obviously will get,no matter what faith he or she has) proves part their faith, but also despair of the situation.
That's not answering the question. It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me.
For clarity let me repost your original question:
"What is your opinion, and relationship to God..."
Well?
I'm not Atheists, but believes in Christian theology ... As it says in the previous post is hardly "mumbo jumbo" it is reality, anyway in Sweden.
Cybermat47
11-28-12, 09:40 PM
God is imperfect, I reckon.
I'm not Atheists, but believes in Christian theology ... As it says in the previous post is hardly "mumbo jumbo" it is reality, anyway in Sweden.
I guess it is. Swedish philosophy of despair is well known. :)
I guess it is. Swedish philosophy of despair is well known. :) I do not think we are particularly desperate, compared with equivalent countries, however,we are philosophy relatively widespread in a society.Bob Costas: I think the summary is good,:up:
I do not think we are particularly desperate, compared with equivalent countries, however,we are philosophy relatively widespread in a society.
Like this quote from the Simpsons:
Bob Costas: "It appears team Sweden will take the gold and they are over the moon with joy."
Swede: "Joy is but the shadow pain casts."
:D
In a nutshell,:yep:
I never understood it. Sweden is such a beautiful country, far away from the strive and filth of the rest of the continent, a stable economy and population,...
and you guys got the Swedish Bikini Team for Christ's sake! :o
http://images.sneakhype.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Swedish-Bikini-Team.jpg
Have you been in the country? Scandinavians have a more complex view of how things should be, I think, I say this because of the many trips to other countries that I've done, a little easier to make a comparison, then, unfortunately, reflected the word jealousy, of a portion of the population, which in turn leads to limitations in her thinking, but please come here, it would please me to be your guide,I would love to live abroad again, my work prevents me among other things, women are plentiful, so I do not need to worry about,:yep:
I'd love to go there someday. Maybe when I retire.
GoldenRivet
11-29-12, 01:46 AM
http://images.sneakhype.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Swedish-Bikini-Team.jpg
sigh
i have a soft spot in my heart for such creatures as these are.
all the other parts... not so soft.
God help me i need to get home to Texas and that gorgeous brunette bombshell of a girlfriend of mine.
what the hell was this thread originally about?
Jimbuna
11-29-12, 05:12 AM
Not really sure but it looks as if the focus has changed to bikini clad Swedes :hmmm:
I'd love to go there someday. Maybe when I retire. You are always welcome,:)
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