Why no Kaibokans?

[Flaskegaard]

I noticed there are no Japanese ASW ships called KAIBOKANS in the Japan ship roster, only a minesweeper and a subchaser. Here is a link that explains them and shows what they look like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_C_escort_ship. Being they made up nearly 2/3rds, if not more, of the Japanese escorts encountered from 1944 on, I'm curious as to why they were not included in the sim. I guess if you really want to wing it, you could tweek either the minesweeper's or subchaser's game files so they perform similar to the kaibokans, but there is a definite difference in their topside profile. It would be a good idea for anyone planning a future patch or mod, to include KAIBOKANS in the roster. There are several good web sites on the internet to research these special Japanese ASW ships. Just Google or Bing: JAPANESE WW2 ESCORTS; KAIBOKANS; or JAPANESE ASW EFFORTS IN WW2.

[merc4ulfate]

I have seen this type in the game ... I do not know if the stock version has them but I know when I run TMO and RSRD I have seen them .... B and C class.

[Armistead]

Mods include many ships and different platforms not found in stock. They're also numerous ships made by others you can add to your game if you take the time.

[Flaskegaard]

You can add ships to SH4 without a mod? Where do I go for this?

[Dread Knot]

I've seen them in the game too on occasion. Considering had badly Japan needed these cheap escorts they sure took their time getting them out of the shipyards.


It was soon realized that Type C’s production schedule of between three and six months would outpace Japan’s ability to build diesel engines for them. A new Type "D" kaikoban was designed that would be powered by a turbine engine. 143 Type D’s were ordered and construction began in October 1943. In 1944, construction of most units were suspended and others cancelled to permit construction of KORYU submarines and KAITEN human torpedoes.


Even this late in the war Japan had it's production priorties screwed up. The vast majority of those midget subs were never used.

[Armistead]

You can add ships to SH4 without a mod? Where do I go for this?

Technically the ship is still a mod, cept you have to add many of them to the roster files and often traffic layers.

You may want to try Madmax DD pack which reworks most of the existing DD's. I think it was Miner that also had a mod that added 11 ships.

[Flaskegaard]

I just added the SH4 1.4 TMO 1.7.6 and found a KAIBOKAN ESCORT added to the Japanese ship roster. Even though it's just a re-worked American Evarts DE, I'm not going to complain. It's better than no kaibokan at all. The only problem I have with it, is it's not very good at detecting my sub. I played the BORNEO CONVOY single mission and noticed none of the Kaibokans I added to the scenario could find me. The Japanese Minekaze destroyer picked me up in normal time and started pinging me right after my torpedos hit, which was about normal when playing the same scenario in the stock setting. The two kaibokans just sailed around in circles, as if searching for me. I sank the Minekaze and even went to flank speed, but never got pinged by either Kaibokan. One even sailed right over the top of me while doing flank speed at 150 feet, and still nothing. Any ideas on how to make the Kaibokans a bit more accurate at detecting a sub? They acted like they had no sonar or hydrophones at all.

[Flaskegaard]

Ok, I am running SH4 1.4 with TMO 1.7.9, and I noticed the KAIBOKAN ESCORT(S) could not detect me. I was playing the BORNEO CONVOY mission with a Japanese Minekaze Destroyer in front of the convoy and two Kaibokan Escorts (Evarts DE) on the flanks. During my approach and attack, I was detected by the Minekaze, but not the Kaibokans. Even when the Minekaze depth charged where he thought I was, the Kaibokans didn't even come over to assist. They just sailed in circles. So, I replaced the Minekaze with another Kaibokan, then re-played the scenario. None of the three Kaibokans pinged me at all. While at periscope depth, one sailed down my port side at less than 50 feet and didn't detect or ping me. I then replaced the Kaibokans with all Minekazes and got detected and attacked by all three. I compared the COKaibokan.SNS file with the DDMinekaze.SNS file, and they were the same. I tried FUBUKI, SHIRATSUYU, and ASASHIO destroyers. I was detected and attacked by each type of destroyer and had to use evasion tactics to escape. With all Kaibokans, I stayed at periscope depth and have yet to be pinged, let alone depth charged. I am currently digging thru the game files to find anything that might fix the problem. It appears the .SNS files only work with generic Japanese ships. If anyone else finds an answer or fix, please post.

[Armistead]

It could be you're running 1.4 and an old version of TMO. I know they will hunt me using 1.5 and TMO 2.5. I think TMO 2.0 onward uses the Type C as the platform.

They're several other mods that make or include it, such as MadMax DD pack. You could simply pull the files from a later TMO or mentioned mod and replace your old ones or better make a small mod.

[Flaskegaard]

More experimenting with the Kaibokan Escorts (EvartsDE). I went into the files and tweeked the AI hydrophones and sonar to as sensitive as possible, then set the crew ratings to 4. Now when I play the scenario, they pick me up almost immediately and come charging over. But get this, I hear NO pinging of their sonar on my hull. They now find and depth charge me, but as they are closing, no sonar pinging. I put generic Japanese destroyers of all kinds in their place and they ping me almost all the way in. I have to adjust my crash dive times with the Japanese destroyers because they have 30+ speeds compared to the Kaibokan/Evarts DE speed of 19. The Minekaze destroyers with their 38 knot speeds are on me like a rat on a cheeto! I'm beginning to think there is something about the Kaibokan Escorts being reflagged American ships that is hardwired into the game. I've surfaced my submarine right in front of American and allied ships and destroyers, and they pay me no mind. Anyone know of a way to get the sonar pinging sound for the Kaibokan Escorts/Evarts DE to be heard? It probably has something to do with a game file that I haven't found yet. I think a Kaibokan has to be made from scratch, and not just a reflagged American ship that looks like one. For anyone who is better at that kinda stuff, here is a link to see what an actual Kaibokan looks like: www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,25065.0.html (http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,25065.0.html) Mabye someone who is good at creating ships for the game can create a generic Kaibokan from the drawings and models shown in this link. Good Luck!

[ColonelSandersLite]

This isn't what you think it is.

The destroyer ai can only use one sensor at a time. Either hydrophones or pinging, not both. Of course, the ai, bieng what it is, also appears to be able to instantly switch between the two but whatever.

The point is that the AI will never ping if you up the hydrophone values too much because it will determine that the hydrophones have the better fix under all circumstances.


Friendly DDS never ping either because they psychically know that you're a friendly. This reminds me of something that I personally haven't tried, but would be interested in any annectdotal results anyone has. If I recall correctly, if you sink a friendly ship, you get marked as rouge for something like 24 hours. I wonder if the friendly destroyers will magically know to start pinging you then?

[razark]

If I recall correctly, if you sink a friendly ship, you get marked as rouge for something like 24 hours. I wonder if the friendly destroyers will magically know to start pinging you then?
I doubt it. I've sunk friendly ships many times in the training missions, and the PT boats never seem to care. They keep running around as if everything was perfectly normal.

[Flaskegaard]

Ok, I didn't know that. Good advise. I'll go back and "turn down" the hydrophones and "turn up" the active sonar, then test it with the Kaibokan Escorts and Japanese DD's. We'll see what happens. Stay tuned...

[Armistead]

What type sonar does your Kaibokan have? You may be onto something using older TMO if it's based off the Evarts class. I think the Evarts used the Type 144 sonar, although the game may use a system close to that. The Jap sonar for the Kaibokan was Type 93, that progressed early war.
If you don't have Jap sonar on your Kai, it won't pick up. Again, TMO now uses a Jap platform for the Kai.

[Flaskegaard]

I'm using the TMO for SH4 1.4. Here is the link to it: http://silenthunter.filefront.com/fi...aru_176;106067 (http://silenthunter.filefront.com/file/Trigger_Maru_176;106067)
I only use 1.4 because I have no desire to purchase or add the 1.5 U-boat add on. I get my U-boat fix by playing SH3. The above TMO link for 1.4 has the KAIBOKAN ESCORT in it, which is just a re-flagged US Evarts DE. I have compared the active and passive sonar (hydrophones) in the COKaibokan.SNS file and it looks just like the sensors on the Japanese DD/DE/CO .SNS files, probably just a cut and paste. As you have read above, I found out the Kaibokan Escorts (Evarts DE) did not ping me. I suspected it had something to do with the fact that in the game hardwire files, it's still being recognized as a friendly US DE and not programed to ping a friendly submarine. I copy/pasted the DE Evarts files from the SEA and ROSTER files and pasted them to a folder outside the SH4 files, then deleted them from the SH4 files. I thought this would force the game to recognize the Kaibokan Escort as a generic Japanese ship. When I went back to the scenarios where i added Kaibokan Escorts, they were missing! When I pasted the Evarts files back in the game files, the Kaibokans reappeared. So that to me, is proof the SH4 hardwired files still recognize the Evarts ship as a friendly US ship, regardless of what flag is flying from it's mast.

[Armistead]

I believe you're right, can't remember exactly, but I don't think code will allow the sonar switch and believe that's why later versions of TMO and RSRD switched the Kai to the Jap Type C platform to resolve the issue.

If you want it to work, DL TMO 2.5 and copy all the Kai files out and make a mod for 1.4.

[Flaskegaard]

Ok, I downloaded TMO 2.5. I'm not sure I know how to make a MOD, but would I be able to copy and paste the Kaibokan files from TMO 2.5 to my 1.4 game? Would I be able to see the Kaibokans in the scenarios and in the MUSEUM?

[Armistead]

Ok, I downloaded TMO 2.5. I'm not sure I know how to make a MOD, but would I be able to copy and paste the Kaibokan files from TMO 2.5 to my 1.4 game? Would I be able to see the Kaibokans in the scenarios and in the MUSEUM?

I don't see why not, but I would make a small mod instead of changing game files, that way if something messes up, just disable the mod. I can't say it would work in the museum, most people that make ships don't waste the time to add it to the museum files, in fact, most added ships will crash the museum file because they don't.

My PC with SH4 isn't hooked up, so I can't look at files and been awhile since I've played with ships. I believe you need the roster and sea files related to the Kai. I think the names.cfg is in one of these files, but I can't remember.

Create a folder, name it whatever you want for your mod. You then create folders inside it using the exact same paths, for instance.

Your mod folder
Data folder


Inside the data folder you would place all the folders related to the Kai, roster and sea folders, names cfg.

Activate jsgme

Try it.

[Flaskegaard]

I tried to install the two COKaibokan files by following the step-by-step mod installation from this post: MOD Installation Step by Step | Forums (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/showthread.php/402710-MOD-Installation-Step-by-Step-Forums?). I followed the steps as best as I could, replacing the TMO they talk about, with the COKaibokan's files. When I thought it was done, I tried to start the game, but the screen goes black right after the opening video, just before the loading screen. It also reduces my resolution. I erased everything I did to install the mod, but am still getting a black screen, sometimes I hear music along with the black screen. I have to use the TASK MANAGER to get off the black screen, and back to my desk top. Now I have to figure out how to get the game to start/load again. Any ideas as to what happened? I'm not very experienced at this mod stuff, so any suggestions on how to do it correctly would help. Thanks in advance.

[Armistead]

I'm not sure what you mean or did, did you try to make a mod or change files within TMO.

The link is dead to me, but it appears to be the old UBI link on how to install a mod, not make a mod or play with files? I assume you know how to install a previous mod with JSG since you already had TMO.

What files were the Kai folders in, the Sea folder? Did you also use use the files in the Roster folder and the files in the names.cfg?

As stated, I never advise changing game or other mod files, better to make your own mod, not that you can't, just if problems arise, it can be a mess. If you ever do change files within a mod, you need to deactivate the mod first, then make changes, then reactivate the mod. Don't make changes within the mod while it's activated.

If you made your own mod, maybe your paths are messed up or you didn't install all the needed files. I'll download TMO to this PC today so I can look at all the folders.

If your game is messed up, try deactivating your TMO, delete it and replace it with a clean version of TMO. If you've downloaded it before, you should have a copy you can unzip. If that doesn't work, you may have to delete the entire game and do a clean install.

Give me some more info, not sure if you're installing mods correctly with jsg, making mods or changing other mod files.

It also helps to keep a clean copy of your game data folder hidden somewhere outside of the game, that way if your base game gets corrupted, you can simply delete the data folder and replace it with a clean copy. If you get in the habit of learning to mod, you'll screw up numerous times, but it's how we learn, but keep clean copies of your mod and data folders.

One thing I can't say for sure, if 1.5 has other code that 1.4 doesn't regarding this ship. I don't think it would be an issue if you load all the right files, when I played 1.4 I added numerous ships and they're several mods that add ships for 1.4.

[Armistead]

I found a copy of TMO 2.0 on this PC. If you get your issues resolved, I made a mod of the Kai, just PM me your email and I can send it to you if you want to try it.

[Flaskegaard]

I tried sending you a private message, but it said "Armistead has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space." Try sending the Kai mod to my SUBSIM profile as a private message. Hopefully it will work.

[Armistead]

Don't believe you can send an attachment to a PM, but I cleared some space out if you want to email.