Power of the machine gun?

[=SE=Sova]

Hello guys.
This is the list of the mods i am usinig:
FX_Update_0_0_19_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_7_1_0_ByTheDarkWraith
Manos Scopes-patch for 16x9
IRAI_0_0_37_ByTheDarkWraith
gap - HD 1 deg Scope Bearing v 1.0
EQuaTool 01.01 by AvM - Kriegsmarine Woody Golden Style
Accurate German Flags
Church's Compass Dials Mod v2.2 - Option Two
Trevally Harbour & Kiel Canal Pilot v2.9
Trevally Automated Scripts v0.6
OPEN HORIZONS II Light v3

I can say exellent work.I like it alot.Water color is great.
I did notice one problem in the game.
I was at periscope depth, 1500 meters from the convoy.Enemy has spoted my periscipe and start to fire with machine gun.I had periscope damage,diesel engine damaged,one oficer hurt,flading,hull damage....

From my military knowlage,macine gun big caliber cant do this.At that distance to penetrate submarine,at that depth.It is OK for deck gun,but not for the machine gun.
Eny opinion?

[Hartmann]

i´m agree

Below water the power of a machine gun is not enough to penetrate the external hull of a submarine. The bullet lost a lot of his energy when hit the water.

The only possible damage could be the periscope , optics and tube because it´s in the surface or not too deep.

But i think that there are some mods that tweak this things

[CaliEs]

3.6 bathtubes per minute will flow into the commando room if a
twisted, damaged periscope has a leak of 1cm in width x 7cm in length.
= 514 litre.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1919186&highlight=flooding#post1919186


All the damages are explainable.


I was at periscope depth, 1500 meters from the convoy.Enemy has spoted my periscipe and start to fire with machine gun.I had periscope damage,diesel engine damaged,one oficer hurt,flading,hull damage....

From my military knowlage,... big caliber cant do this.At that distance to penetrate submarine,at that depth.

[=SE=Sova]

how is it possible to damage diesel engine? I was at 90 degerese with convoy,preparing for fast 90 degrese attack.

[CaliEs]

Water and batteries °) do not get along.
Water and diesels do not get along.

°) to start the diesels

[Hartmann]

It depends of the angle but it´s very difficult for a 50 cal bullet penetrate a pressure hull below water.It means that damages in diesel engines and hull can be very limited.

Mythbusters Shooting 50 Caliber Sniper into Water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvSTuLIjRm8

[Sailor Steve]

Short but interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRqYJvtZVJY

[=SE=Sova]

Cant open this video Steve.
Who was talking abouth bateries?

What ever it is,if my periscope is damaged,submarine cant take so much water in 2 seconds thry damaged periscope to reach and damage diesel engines.Even if hull is damaged by machine gun ,submarine cant take so much water so fast to make damage to the diesels.

[Sailor Steve]

Cant open this video Steve.
It's a four-second clip of a bullet slowing down as it hits the water, and the pocket of air it drags with it.

No, if you're submerged to periscope depth bullets shouldn't penetrate your pressure hull, and you should take no internal damage.

[Dogfish40]

Water and batteries °) do not get along.
Water and diesels do not get along.

°) to start the diesels

It depends of the angle but it´s very difficult for a 50 cal bullet penetrate a pressure hull below water.It means that damages in diesel engines and hull can be very limited.

Mythbusters Shooting 50 Caliber Sniper into Water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvSTuLIjRm8

Absolutely
Even that caliber ammo will be slowed sufficiently to check hull penetration. Engine damage?? No way!! Even periscope damage is a very lucky hit. It's only an inch or so in width.... A 20mm with AP might do some outer skin damage, as well as tear up the decking some. Even though you stated machine gun, I'm assuming light caliber. Even 50 cal wouldn't get to the engines.
As far as water damage to the engine?? The engines were constantly having leaks repaired (the whole sub for that matter), water in small amounts was not a big threat. Large amounts...yes:O:
This just sounds like a adjustment needs to be made to the game.
On the same note, I used the flak gun on a merchant for the heck of it and tore that ship up. I think it may be FX but pieces were flying off that ship, including lifeboats and auxiliary launches went spinning into the air. Ya gotta' try that sometime, it's very satisfying after a long day at the office.
Cheers
D40

[=SE=Sova]

Yes,lol.It is nice fun to hiting specific places and targets at ship with gun and watching parts falling off.
Flak gun also can make damage to an "light armored" targets,like life boats,trucks,light armored vehicles...
I played this mission again,same conditions.Enemy was very precision with deck machine gun.I have been hit with first tracer.Than second and third.I had few man wounded,heavy flooding,periscope damage,diesel engines damaged,electic motors damaged,main pump damaged,under surface propulsion not funkcional...All that at 2 500 meters distance.
It is interesting that enemy made it to see 0,5 meters extended periscope at 2500 meters,estimate range in second and bee so precision.
I think Russian are not able to do it with BMP-2 infatry fighting vehicle with A42A canon and laser range finder.
Watch at youtube how soldiers firing at somalian pirates from close range and how thay missing.We are talking abouth 2012 year,compuers,lasers,hi teck weapons and aiming systems.

[Sailor Steve]

It is interesting that enemy made it to see 0,5 meters extended periscope at 2500 meters,estimate range in second and bee so precision.
You are correct. Naval gunnery has been described as extremely imprecise. Machine guns are also noted for missing a lot. Combine the two and you've got only a tiny chance of hitting anything at more than 500 meters, and even that's going to have more to do with luck than skill.

[gap]

Interesting topic. Obviously SH5 wepaons/armor system requires a general rebalance.

Out of curiosity, Sova, wich kind of machine gun made that much damage to your sub?

[Webster]

sh4 and sh5 the "sniper" accuracy of all guns is and has been rediculous


the sad thing is a lot of modders dont care because they like it to be hard to survive things but IMO its better to be as realistic with damage as you can get which includes weapon damage and accuracy

[gap]

You are correct. Naval gunnery has been described as extremely imprecise. Machine guns are also noted for missing a lot. Combine the two and you've got only a tiny chance of hitting anything at more than 500 meters, and even that's going to have more to do with luck than skill.

sh4 and sh5 the "sniper" accuracy of all guns is and has been rediculous

In guns_radars_01.sim there are 3 parameters per gun that could affect their dispersion/accuracy. They are:


Restr_dist (in meters): stock settings range from 100 to 1000; in general, bigger figures are applied to bigger calibers.
Trav. tolerance and Elev. tolerance (in degrees?): stock settings for AI guns are invariably 1 for both parameters. U-boat's Flak guns got 15/15. U-boat's Deck gun: 0.75/0.75.


I've been digging in past threads of SHIII-IV forums for an explaination on what these parameters actually do, but couldn't find any clear answer. If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.

the sad thing is a lot of modders dont care because they like it to be hard to survive things but IMO its better to be as realistic with damage as you can get which includes weapon damage and accuracy

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1935329#post1935329 ;)

[THE_MASK]

What if you add some sort of controller to the sim like sinking effects ?

[troopie]

If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.


I'll have a crack at this gap; it's about time I made a meaningful contribution. I'll be needing those instructions though, I'll send you a PM.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1935329#post1935329 ;)

I'll try and get involved in this one too, if you're still looking fo help. :up:

[gap]

What if you add some sort of controller to the sim like sinking effects ?

What do you mean, sober :06:
As far as I know the sinking of whatever unit is controlled by its .zon file, and by its respective zones in zones.cfg :hmm2:

I'll have a crack at this gap; it's about time I made a meaningful contribution. I'll be needing those instructions though, I'll send you a PM.

Excellent resolution, troopie :up:

Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km :hmmm:

For editing sim.cfg you only need notepad, but later today I will draw up a short tutorial on modding the remaining parameters in the sm file. ;)

I'll try and get involved in this one too, if you're still looking fo help. :up:

Indeed I need for help, though being working on some improvements of Dynamic Environment, I have temporarily left aside this project.

Your partecipation in it could give it a new impulse :yeah:

[=SE=Sova]

Interesting topic. Obviously SH5 wepaons/armor system requires a general rebalance.

Out of curiosity, Sova, wich kind of machine gun made that much damage to your sub?

Machine gun from Cimaron clas tanker.Historical missions,Convoy AI testing.
Not deck gun,machine gun.

[Sailor Steve]

Cimaron clas tanker.
Oh, well, that's different then. Everybody knows Americans do everything better. That machine gun should have sunk your sub at 200 meters! :sunny:

[gap]

Here we are ;)

for a start, you will need for one or more test missions, to test your changes in game.
At first, you can use one of the historical missions coming with the game, or one of the test missions included in many mods available for SH5. At some point you will probably need for a mission especially designed. You can ask me to create it for you, or you can do it by yourself using Mission Editor. Following the tutorial posted in this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1311281#post1311281) you will learn all you need to know in order to create a simple mission in 5 minutes. :up:

The second step is locating the ships featured in the test mission you have picked, and identifying their guns.
Surface units are located in the data/Sea folder. Each subsfolder in that path is a single unit. Their names are often quite unequivocal on the unit that they are standing for: there is a prefix, describing the unit type (see below), followed by the name of the unit/class.

NAGC = Amphibious ship
NAMC / NTR = Merchant raider / Auxiliary cruiser
NAO = Supply vessel
NBB = Battleship
NBC = Battlecruiser
NCA = Heavy cruiser
NCL = Light cruiser
NCO = Corvette
NCV = Aircraft carrier
NCVE = Escort carrier
NDD = Destroyer
NDE = Escort destroyer / Frigate
NFF = Sloop
NK* / NLL / NVV = Cargo ship
NLS = Landing craft
NO* = Oiler / Tanker
NPC = Patrol boat / Torpedo boat
NPH / NPL / NPP = Ocean liner / Troop transport
Nrtw = Naval trawler
NSC = Submarine chaser

Should you need for further evidence on the identity of any ship, open its cfg file (within its respective folder), copy her ClassName (in the first row), and search for it in Names.cfg (located id data/Roster): the name after the '=' sign is the one shown in game, when you identify the unit ;)

In order to know which guns each unit is equipped with, you should open its .eqp file with notepad, and take note of LinkNames under NodeNames that are starting with a 'M' (main guns), with a 'A' (secondary guns), or with a 'L' (light guns and, more often, searchlights). Each NodeName stands for a single bone in the 3dmodel, i.e. a set of coordinates designing a single gun platform aboard the unit. StartDate and EndDate (in yyyymmdd format) will tell you the time span that each platform is equipped with that given gun (outside this timespan the platform will be either empty or occupied by another gun).

It is now time to open Goblin Editor.
Before doing it, create a new mod, containing the following files: guns_radars_01.GR2 and guns_radars_01.sim (path: data/Library/ShipPart). Remember to reproduce the same path in your mod, if you want to enable it using JSGME. After doing it, follow the below steps:


run GoblinEditorApp.exe (found in SH5main folder);
if it is the first time you are using Goblin Editor, you should set it according to the instructions in this tutorial (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1328039#post1328039);
menu file => open => select guns_radars_01.GR2;
menu file => merge => select guns_radars_01.sim (pointing to the file you had previously put into your test mod);
at this point, the project tree (Tool => Show Project Tree, if it is not visible from the beginning) should display the guns coming with stock game. Double click on any of them for editing its properties;
in the next window (existing behaviors), select the wpn_Cannon controller, for displaying its properties in Edit behavior window (on the right);
the restr_dist parameter is found under obj_turret => Debug (click on the + symbols for expanding the tree). On top of it there's another parameter called show_restr. By default it is set to No. Try setting it to yes. Once in game it should show graphically the effect of restr_dist; :up:
the trav and elev_tolerance parameters are found under Fire;
once fininished with your changes close the edit behaviors window. You will notice that guns_radars_01.sim entries have become red, meaning that there are unsaved changes on this file;
repeat the same steps for each gun you want to edit;
for saving the changes, right click on any red entry in Project Tree, under guns_radars_01.sim, and selcet 'Save'. That's all :sunny:


In game:
you might want to test your changes under different conditions. New UIs lets you to set many mission related parameters (date, hour, rain, fog, etc.). Rememeber to backup the mission, if you want to retrieve it to its previous settings (especially important for stock historical missions).

NOTE:

if Goblin Editor's selection boxes are flickering, close the program, right click on GoblinEditorApp.exe => Compatibility window => Disable visual themes.

The above instructions are relative to stock ships/guns. Things are slightly different for imported units, but for the moment I suggest you to stick to GR2 units/guns only. ;)

[Trevally.]

Great post Gap:up:
Could be a new tutorial (TEC) thread in the workshop forum for easy searching :hmmm:

:D

[gap]

Machine gun from Cimaron clas tanker.Historical missions,Convoy AI testing.
Not deck gun,machine gun.

That ship is equipped with both Oerlikon (20 mm) machine guns, Bofors (40 mm) autocannons, and 2 pounder (40 mm) "pompom" autocannons. In game, they are firing the following ammunitions:

Oerlikon machine gun: 20mmAA (Maximum Armor Piercing: 5 mm)
Bofors autocannon: 40mmAA (MAP: 10 mm) and 40mmAP (MAP: 20 mm)
2 pounder autocannon: 2pdrAA (MAP: 5 mm) and 2pdrAP (MAP: 10 mm)

Main armor setting for human playable subs is 10 mm, so the Oerlikon machine gun shouldn't be capable of damaging anything but the equipment protruding from the hull (periscope, guns, antennas, etc). :yep:
I suspect that the damage you suffered was caused by one or both the autocannons, though considering the distance, the angle, and the fact that you were at periscope depth, you shouldn't have suffered that much damage.

I ignore wether/how SH5 damage system takes into account the above mentioned factors. I wish TDW was around :-?

Nonetheless, ammunition settings can be easily altered using Goblin Editor. As far as I can see, we can even introduce new ammo definitions, and assign them to any gun. Each gun can fire up to 4 types of shells, 1 for each of these categories: AA, armor piecing, explosive and starshells.

Shell damage parameters editable in Shells.zon are:

MinEF: the min hit points this ammunition worths
MaxEF: the max hit points this ammunition worths
AP: The armor level it penetrates
MinRadius: the minimum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes all its hitpoints util this distance
MaxRadius: the maximum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes no hitpoints beyond this distance. If 0 no splash

Oh, well, that's different then. Everybody knows Americans do everything better. That machine gun should have sunk your sub at 200 meters! :sunny:

:rotfl2:
The usual American boasting attitude. I thought that this forum was immune from it... so far :D

[gap]

Great post Gap:up:
Could be a new tutorial (TEC) thread in the workshop forum for easy searching :hmmm:

:D

Thank you Trev :) :salute:

More or less the same method apllies, indeed, to any aspect of the game editable through Goblin Editor.

When can we expect for your "Easy guide for remoulding the SH campaign in 5 minutes"? :D

[THE_MASK]

You dont have to exit the game to check the changed parameters . Just go back to the main screen , change a parameter and then load the single mission again .

[gap]

You dont have to exit the game to check the changed parameters . Just go back to the main screen , change a parameter and then load the single mission again .

Good tip :up:

I am wondering wether playing the game in windowed mode/full screen mode does matter when testing mods the way you are suggesting :hmm2:

[Dogfish40]

In guns_radars_01.sim there are 3 parameters per gun that could affect their dispersion/accuracy. They are:


Restr_dist (in meters): stock settings range from 100 to 1000; in general, bigger figures are applied to bigger calibers.
Trav. tolerance and Elev. tolerance (in degrees?): stock settings for AI guns are invariably 1 for both parameters. U-boat's Flak guns got 15/15. U-boat's Deck gun: 0.75/0.75.

I've been digging in past threads of SHIII-IV forums for an explaination on what these parameters actually do, but couldn't find any clear answer. If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.



http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1935329#post1935329 ;)

This is also interesting, that the guns in question hit his boat submerged so very accurately yet, in a surface battle, I have been closer, say 1000 + mtrs and lasted quite a while before I started to take on damage. This makes me think of the Elite units in SH4 that were much more accurate than their peers. So, is it possible that some of this accuracy is on a ship by ship basis? :06:
D40

[gap]

This is also interesting, that the guns in question hit his boat submerged so very accurately yet, in a surface battle, I have been closer, say 1000 + mtrs and lasted quite a while before I started to take on damage. This makes me think of the Elite units in SH4 that were much more accurate than their peers. So, is it possible that some of this accuracy is on a ship by ship basis? :06:
D40


Yes, what you are suggesting is plausible and worth further testing :yep:

When creating a test mission, there are five possible crew rankings that can be assigned to each unit (in Mission Editor, Properties window, under Performance, VeterrancyLevel): Poor, Novice, Competent, Veteran and Elite.

I don't remember if it is possible to modify these rankings in game through mission options panel, but there is a quick way to do it with notepad: open mission's mis file, and look for CrewRating entries. There is one of them for each unit (incuding plyer's sub). 0 stands for Poor, 1 for Novice, and so on. By altering these values, it is possible to check how units' rating affects their gun's aiming, letting any other parameter unaltered ;)

[=SE=Sova]

Oh, well, that's different then. Everybody knows Americans do everything better. That machine gun should have sunk your sub at 200 meters! :sunny:

HI hi hi,yes we have that same problem in flight simulation.Russain and other countries missiles are stupid,but US AIM 120C can find you and hit you from eny angle and far distance.:haha:

Thanks for the help Gap and the others.This is litle far beyond my knowledge.I can open scripts and do some changes,but i will need some time to translate this accurately and do step by step.I have never done enythig in SH5 mission editor,so i soppose i cant do the test mission.Have no so much time for this stuff.I will thry,but cant guarantie i will made it ,thry it and give you results from testing.
I was expecting that some of you will recognise the problem and sugest an mod or single script changes.

Thank you guys,one more time.

[GT182]

Hear is another question that I've asked before on the sub's guns.

Is it possible to change settings to make the flak guns on the subs do damage to shipping too? It would be great to have the extra protection while you're trying to sink that ship that returns fire on you.

[THE_MASK]

Good tip :up:

I am wondering wether playing the game in windowed mode/full screen mode does matter when testing mods the way you are suggesting :hmm2:Nah , just hit the windows key and adjust the peramater and then go back to the main screen and load the single mission .

[troopie]

Cheers for the heads up gap, excellent advice posted above. :salute: I'll make a start on this on the weekend.

Right now I gotta go watch THFRO as another thread has just sucked me into it!:lurk:


Edit: Anyone know what my rank says now? :o

[volodya61]

Edit: Anyone know what my rank says now? :o

:rotfl2:

Chinese sailor :up:

[Dogfish40]

Hear is another question that I've asked before on the sub's guns.

Is it possible to change settings to make the flak guns on the subs do damage to shipping too? It would be great to have the extra protection while you're trying to sink that ship that returns fire on you.

I used the flak guns on a ship (I had to man the gun personally) and I cut that ship to pieces. I think I already mentioned most of this. What I still have to try is whether or not I can use the flak gun against say, an enemy's gun to silence it.
I can blow the lifeboats off the enemy ship and pieces of metal flying everywhere. I don't know if the flak gun will actually help win the day.
Also, you are right in the fact that I don't know if I was cutting any damage points off the ship. I think I'll man that gun more often when we battle surface, to see if it helps get the job done quicker, I know it's not supposed to, but we have a lot of mods installed and a lot of parameter changes...
D40 :salute:

[gap]

Thanks for the help Gap and the others.This is litle far beyond my knowledge.I can open scripts and do some changes,but i will need some time to translate this accurately and do step by step.I have never done enythig in SH5 mission editor,so i soppose i cant do the test mission.Have no so much time for this stuff.I will thry,but cant guarantie i will made it ,thry it and give you results from testing.

Creating a simple mission, without triggers, objectives etc, doesn't really require much skills, Sova. Give it a try when/if you get time for it!
I for one know just the basics of Mission Editor, but if needed I will be glad to help you for what I can :up:


I was expecting that some of you will recognise the problem and sugest an mod or single script changes.

Thank you guys,one more time.

As I said some posts back, a mod addressing the issue pointed out by you is on the making, but it can take long before ready.
Unfortunately there are tens of parameters that are reciprocally interacting to determine SH's damage system, and if we don't address them globally, trying instead to fix single aspects one-by-one, we risk to mess up something else. :yep:
If we want to undertake a general rebalance, we need first to collect as much historical information as possible, and to understand how each parameter is applied in game, in order to convert collected raw data into game settings.

Getting back to your problem, with all the limitations said above, two quick fixes could be either increasing your U-boat's armor to something above 20 or decreasing the armor penetration of low caliber shells to below 10. Just tell me if you are interested into applying one of these fixes, and I will tell you wich files/parameters you need to edit :salute:


Hear is another question that I've asked before on the sub's guns.

Is it possible to change settings to make the flak guns on the subs do damage to shipping too? It would be great to have the extra protection while you're trying to sink that ship that returns fire on you.

I used the flak guns on a ship (I had to man the gun personally) and I cut that ship to pieces. I think I already mentioned most of this. What I still have to try is whether or not I can use the flak gun against say, an enemy's gun to silence it.
I can blow the lifeboats off the enemy ship and pieces of metal flying everywhere. I don't know if the flak gun will actually help win the day.
Also, you are right in the fact that I don't know if I was cutting any damage points off the ship. I think I'll man that gun more often when we battle surface, to see if it helps get the job done quicker, I know it's not supposed to, but we have a lot of mods installed and a lot of parameter changes...
D40 :salute:

If you wanted to boost your Flak, you should edit 20mm_AP_shell parameters in shells.zon. Beware that most aircraft use the same ammunition, and your trick can backfire on you :yep:
If you want to avoid transforming plane's machine guns into deadly weapons, you should create a new shell type (duplicating one of the existing ones with s3d), give it the desired damage /armor penetration settings, and then replace the 20mm_AP_shell with the new one in sub flak guns sim files.

Nah , just hit the windows key and adjust the peramater and then go back to the main screen and load the single mission .

Thank you Klt Sober! :up:

Cheers for the heads up gap, excellent advice posted above. :salute: I'll make a start on this on the weekend.

Thank you troopie. Keep us informed on the results of your tests, please :)

[GT182]

If you wanted to boost your Flak, you should edit 20mm_AP_shell parameters in shells.zon. Beware that most aircraft use the same ammunition, and your trick can backfire on you :yep:

If you want to avoid transforming plane's machine guns into deadly weapons, you should create a new shell type (duplicating one of the existing ones with s3d), give it the desired damage /armor penetration settings, and then replace the 20mm_AP_shell with the new one in sub flak guns sim files.


Thanks for that Gap, but I wouldn't know what to do to change things around for making a mod. I'll leave that for you young lads that really know what you're doing. For now I can live with what we have. I just means being a lot more careful attacking armed shipping. ;)

Besides, if I broke SH5 it I wouldn't know how to fix it. ;) It would mean another reinstall and I don't think I want to do that again for a while. I've just gotten going agian with Happy Times and I still have bugs to work out from my mod soup. But.... I'm getting them straightened out little by little each time I get back to port.

[troopie]

Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km :hmmm:



So is this to say that if I'm the target, the AI could accidently aim up to 4.5 deg off to the right of my actual position and if so, the shell would land 118m away from me (if I was 1.5 k's away)? I'm too lazy to do the trigonometry.:oops: Does this same factor apply to both elevation and traverse?

Is a modifyer applied over this factor to reflect crew skill level?

My stock file is showing 5deg for AA btw.



Chinese sailor :up:

Cheers! At least it doesn't say anything derogatory like.. 'serial pest' or something :haha:

[troopie]

Following the tutorial posted in this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1311281#post1311281) you will learn all you need to know in order to create a simple mission in 5 minutes.

Okay well, this is rather embarrssing but, as far as file structure goes, I found the 'mission editor' tut thoroughly confusing, and consistently contradictory! :oops: Nothing against the author, probly more of a reflection of my I.Q. Anyway after much experimenting I've got my test mission underway but now I'm suffering a bad case of the X-boats! :damn:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2741/xboat.jpg



Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km :hmmm:


Anyway, X-boats aside, I was able to test many changes to the above lines with none seeming to have much effect. Tried many values from 0 and 0.1 anywhere up to 50.

Now, on to guns_radars_01.sim

[troopie]

menu file => open => select guns_radars_01.GR2;
menu file => merge => select guns_radars_01.sim (pointing to the file you had previously put into your test mod);



Have made said mod. Just want to ceck I have the right understanding of how this works: Once I have enabled it via jsgme and start using goblin editor, I point the editor to what would normally be the stock location of the file yes? And as jsgme is redirecting to my mod the changes will actually be made to the mod and not to the stock file itself, yes?

[THE_MASK]

Have made said mod. Just want to ceck I have the right understanding of how this works: Once I have enabled it via jsgme and start using goblin editor, I point the editor to what would normally be the stock location of the file yes? And as jsgme is redirecting to my mod the changes will actually be made to the mod and not to the stock file itself, yes?Copy the new file to a safe location like my documents . Because the file wont keep the changes if you unenable the mod afaik . If the mod is enabled then it will be in the stock data files . Also right click on the goblin icon and go to properties /compatability , tick disable visual themes .

[troopie]

. Because the file wont keep the changes if you unenable the mod afaik ..

Thats o.k. that's the plan, I'm just aiming to test the effects of changes at this stage, I don't necessarily wan't to keep any of them.

[troopie]

Any thoughts on my little X-boat problem sober? I currently have no mods activated. I pretty much follow every thing by the letter but did find the mission editor tut a little confusing regarding file structure. In the end I named the 'project', 'mission name' and 'mission title' all the same. Is this the right way to go? Seems an odd way to structure it to me, but after trying a few different combos that's the only way I could get it to work.

Sorry for all the stupid questions.

[THE_MASK]

Any thoughts on my little X-boat problem sober? I currently have no mods activated. I pretty much follow every thing by the letter but did find the mission editor tut a little confusing regarding file structure. In the end I named the 'project', 'mission name' and 'mission title' all the same. Is this the right way to go? Seems an odd way to structure it to me, but after trying a few different combos that's the only way I could get it to work.

Sorry for all the stupid questions.The crossed boats have been discussed before but i dont know where . Trevally or someone else will know the fix .

[gap]

So is this to say that if I'm the target, the AI could accidently aim up to 4.5 deg off to the right of my actual position and if so, the shell would land 118m away from me (if I was 1.5 k's away)? I'm too lazy to do the trigonometry.:oops:

Theoretically, yes!
It is a simple trigonometry calculation:

max traverse error [m] = sine (max traverse error [deg]) * range

in our example, the maximum deviation should be equal to:

sine (4.5) * 1,500 ≈ 0.078 * 1,500 ≈ 118 m


Does this same factor apply to both elevation and traverse?

Elevation is a bit more complicated, because bullet's motion is not linear, being affected by gravity. Gravity force (i.e. the change of vertical speed) is constant indeed, but what matters is the relation between it and the decreasing horizontal speed, wich in RL is affected on turn by muzzle velocity (the starting speed) and by bullet's weight and drag coefficient, both varying from gun to gun and from shell to shell.

In SH5 this model is strongly simplified, that's sure (I couldn't find any parameter relative to shell's weight and drag). But I ignore its details.

Note also that wind speeds should affect as well both traverse and elevation errors, but again, I ignore if this aspect is modelled in game.


Is a modifyer applied over this factor to reflect crew skill level?

I am not sure about it, but I think so. This is something that would be worth experimenting on it :yep:

Okay well, this is rather embarrssing but, as far as file structure goes, I found the 'mission editor' tut thoroughly confusing, and consistently contradictory! :oops: Nothing against the author, probly more of a reflection of my I.Q. Anyway after much experimenting I've got my test mission underway but now I'm suffering a bad case of the X-boats! :damn:

As said by sober this was a common occurrence when the first modders started creating custom missions. At some point they discovered what was causing it. IIRC I experienced myself the same issue once or twice, but I can't remember what I was doing wrong. Nevertheless, I will prepare a simplified ME step by step tutorial that should iron out the problem for you :up:


Anyway, X-boats aside, I was able to test many changes to the above lines with none seeming to have much effect. Tried many values from 0 and 0.1 anywhere up to 50.

Now, on to guns_radars_01.sim

Have made said mod. Just want to ceck I have the right understanding of how this works: Once I have enabled it via jsgme and start using goblin editor, I point the editor to what would normally be the stock location of the file yes? And as jsgme is redirecting to my mod the changes will actually be made to the mod and not to the stock file itself, yes?

Follow the below steps, in the same order:


Copy the wanted files wherever you want, and put them in the correct folder structure (to mimic the one of SH5). For example:
MyMod/data/Library/ShipParts


Edit the copied files


Drop your mod (MyMod in our example) in the MODS folder, and enable it with JSGME, as you would do for any other mod


If you edit the files of your mod after having anabled it, your changes won't take any effect until you disable the mod and reenable it


Sorry for all the stupid questions.

The only stupid questions I know of, are the ones that one refrained himself from :up:

[troopie]

If you edit the files of your mod after having anabled it, your changes won't take any effect




Ooops...:88) Time to go back to stage 1 and start again!

Thanks for pointing that out!:salute:

[gap]

Ooops...:88) Time to go back to stage 1 and start again!

Thanks for pointing that out!:salute:

You don't need to redo all the changes: just disable the mod and reenable it for making sure that all the changes are correctly applied!

P.S: nice avatar :03: :haha:

[gap]

Open Mission Editor


Click on 'File' => 'New Project' in the top menu bar.


In the next 'New Project' popup window, enter any Name and Location on your HD where your mission will be saved. For my example I will use "test mission" as project name, and "C:\Users\Gabriele\Desktop\test mission" as location. Click 'Ok' when finished and a world map should appear in the main window.


Click on 'Campaign' in top menu bar, move the mouse over 'Player side', and select 'Axis' in the following drop-down menu.


Click again on 'File' menu => 'Add New Mission', or alternatively press the Ctrl N keys.


In the next 'New Mission' popup window, enter a Name and select a Start Date. For my example I will use again "test mission" as mission name, and I will select 01/01/1940 as start date*. Click 'Ok' when finished.

NOTE: make sure to select a date within the timespan that the nation of the ship you want to test was in war with germany, or the ship won't fire on you, and game will ctd if you sink her. Check the diplomatic position of the various nations from data/Roster/DefSide.cfg


Time to place our sub: in the 'Explorer Window' (top right corner by default; switch it on from 'Windows' top menu if not visible), select the 'Sub' tab, expand the Roster => German and drag/drop on map one of the following units:

Type VII-A
Type VII-B
Type VII-C
Type VII-C/41

NOTE: don't pick the subs marked with the (IA) suffix, and make sure to drop the selected sub not too close to land, or the mission won't pass the validation (see below). In order to measure distances in ME, you can use the ruler (click on the button displaying a stick with the 12 number, on the top left corner, and drag the mouse on map while holding the left mouse button pressed; click again on the ruler button when finished, or you won't be able to select anything on map).


Now we will set our sub: click on it, and its properties will appear in the 'Properties Window (left side of the screen by default; switch it on from 'Windows' top menu if not visible). Under 'Group information' => 'Commander', select HUMAN. From the same window you might want to change (optional) other parameters such as 'CurrenSpeed', 'Heading', 'Height' (i.e. depth), 'VeterancyLeve' (i.e. crew's experience), 'SecondaryEquipment' and 'MainEquipment'


Now we are ready for adding an enemy unit. In order to do it we will follow the same steps as when we added our sub: 'Explorer Window' => 'Sea', 'Sub' or 'Air' tab => expand roster, and drag/drop on map the wanted unit.

NOTE: make sure to drop the selected sub not too close to land or to other units (including player's sub), or the mission won't pass the validation.


We need to give the new unit a set of waipoints to follow: select it and right click everywhere on screen, select 'Add Waypoint' from the following context menu, and click on map as many times as you want for setting waypoints' position. When finished, right click again to end the waypoint setting mode. Finally, you should select again the unit (it is the diamond marking its starting position), right click and select 'Head to Waypoint' from the context menu: the unit will be oriented automatically for facing toward its first waypoint.



Optional: you can click on any set waipoint for setting (in 'Properties Window') unit's speed until the next waypoint. If you want the unit to loop between waypoints, you can similarly select the last waypoint, and set its 'LoopProbability' and 'LoopPoint' (i.e. the waypoint that the unit will head to, once the last waypoint is reached).


Optional: you can edit unit's properties with the same method used for player sub properties.


Optional: creating convoys and task forces:

- select the unit you want to behave as the leader, right click and select 'Create Group from Unit' in the following context menu;
- create then as many new units as you want to be part of the convoy. You don't need to give them any waypoint, as they will follow their leader;
- once finished dragging the new units on map, select them one by one, and in the 'Properties Window', under 'Group information' => 'Group', assign them to the recently created group (by default groups are called "Group Name1", "Group Name2" and so on, but you can change their name by editing leader's 'GroupName' property);
- after assigning the first child unit to the group, the diamond denoting its leader will be inscribed in a bigger diamond. When all the child units are created and assigned to the group, zoom on the double diamond in order to be able to select its leader alone; do it, right click and select 'Arrange Group' in the following context menu;
- in the following window, you can set the number of columns and the spacing between units and columns. When finished click 'Ok', and the convoy will be arranged automatically :up:

NOTE: You can group Sea/Sub units together. Probably you can create as well groups of aircraft, but don't group ships/subs and aircraft, or the latter will try and fly at the same speed as ships, crashing miserably :yep:


Optional: editing mission settings:

- in the top menu, click on 'Mission' => 'Parameters', for editing
- leave 'Mission Type' set on 'Single Player';
- I don't know why there's another setting for 'Start Date', but usually I leave it unchenged, same goes for 'Mission Start Delay (days)': leave it set to 0;
- more interesting for our pourposes is the possibility to change Star Time and weather setting;
- When finished click on 'Accept'.


We should now give our mission a title and a description to be shown in game: in the top menu, click on 'Mission' => 'Language Localization'; in the appearing 'Language specific strings' window, select 'MissionBriefing' and type whatever you want in the empty space at the bottom. When finished do the same for 'MissionTitle' and click 'Ok' to confirm your strings.


In the top menu, click on 'Mission' => 'Validate Mission'. In the following window, click on the 'Check Mission' button. If, as we hope, everything is okay, the upper part of the window will show the text "Mission Title :" followed by the title you have typed in the previous step. If ME detects a problem, you will be given the details of what is wrong with your mission. If needed, read back this tutorial, correct the mistake(s) and repeat the current step.


Last: menu 'File' => 'Save As Game Mission', taking care of giving the mission the same name as the folder where it will be saved: "test mission" in our example. The final result should be a 'test mission' folder containig the following files:

test mission.tsr (mission's name and briefing)
test mission.misge (mission's settings)

You can drop the above folder directly in data/SingleMissions or set it as you would do for any other mod, in order to enable it with JSGME.

LAST NOTE: afaik, once you close Mission Editor, you cannot reedit a custom mission in ME, but you can open the misge file with notepad for editing its parameters (enemy crews experience, weather type, etc)

[Trevally.]

:Kaleun_Applaud:


.

LAST NOTE: afaik, once you close Mission Editor, you cannot reedit a custom mission in ME, but you can open the misge file with notepad for editing its parameters (enemy crews experience, weather type, etc)


You can re-edit a mission with ME :yep:

Select load your project (Test Mission) and then click file- load existing mission.
Select you mission for where you saved it
Make changes
Re-save

:up:

[gap]

:Kaleun_Applaud:



You can re-edit a mission with ME :yep:

Select load your project (Test Mission) and then click file- load existing mission.
Select you mission for where you saved it
Make changes
Re-save

:up:

good to know, thank you Trev!

:Kaleun_Salute: