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Sailor Steve
11-21-12, 10:37 PM
Don't read this if you're easily bored by historical shenanigans. You've been warned. It's a perverted sort of geekdom to the max.

As I've mentioned many times in the past, I've been working on my own tabletop miniatures naval game for a couple of decades. I'm no closer to being done than I've ever been because I keep finding out new things and adding them in. Honestly I worry that my real hobby is doing the research, and actually playing the game is something I can take or leave. We did a little playtesting back in 2001, but not much since.

Part of the problem is that I'm weird to begin with. I played several naval games back in the 1990s and had objections to every one of them. Some of them were too simple, being designed to enable the player to run a whole fleet, or at least a task force or squadron. That's fine. In fact, that's what most players want - something they can play in a couple of hours and have fun sinking their friends. Other games are more complex and more detailed, and I like that. My problem there was that they were usually detailed in ways I didn't like and not detailed enough where I wanted them to be. I wanted to feel like I was on board the ship, and none of them made me feel that way. I stress "me", because my objections are my own and I don't expect other players to see it my way.

This has lead me to create individual charts for each ship class (and often each individual ship within the class) showing how they handled in bad weather, acceleration calculations, turning radius, gun descriptions and penetration charts and individual critical hit charts for each ship, with armor values for each specific location.

I vowed that I would not do any ships earlier than 1890, mainly because I wanted ships that served in the First World War. This has been scotched a couple of times because some classes had ships that were built in 1887 and the last one in 1891 (the British 'Admiral' Class battleships are a good example). I just finished the American protected cruiser Chicago yesterday, and planned today to start the British Mersey class cruisers of 1889. I went back the extra year because some of them served all the way through World War Two. My research showed that the Merseys were actually identical to the preceding Leander class of 1885, except the later ships had a protective internal deck extending the length of the ship whereas the earlier class's deck only covered the machinery spaces (engines and boilers).

Then I discovered that the class preceeding those, the Iris class of 1879, were in fact identical except for not having a protecive deck at all. The Irises were also the very first steel ships built for the Royal Navy, so including them was probably a good idea, and since it's my game I can do whatever I want anyway. I then found out that another difference between the classes was the guns they carried, and that the guns changed from time to time. No problem, that's true of a lot of ship classes.

So I checked all the sources at my disposal on the Iris class second-class cruisers, and discovered that their original armament was ten 64pdr RMLs. Yes, these ships were so old they were originally built with MUZZLE-LOADERs, just like back in the sailing ship days. In fact despite being the first steel ships and having quite powerful engines for their size, they also still carried sails.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Iris-03.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Iris-23.jpg

Okay. I started doing research on the 64pdr, and found out that there were two different versions. The original was the gun that outfitted the first all-iron warship, HMS Warrior, back in 1860. It had a bore diameter of 8" because an 8" round iron cannonball weighed 64 pounds; or more properly a sixty-four pound roundball was eight inches in diameter.

Not long before this they had designed a new 64pdr, this one having a diameter of 6.3" and a rifled barrel. I knew that an oblong shell can be narrower but longer and still have the same weight, but I wondered why six-point-three inches and not six, or seven? It made no sense to me, but I had to find out. I started reading more, and what I found was to me both weird and wonderful, and ultimately so typically British, that I had to share it with anyone who might be interested.

The best example of that roundball vs oblong shell is the 12-pounder. The 12pdr Napoleon was the primary field gun from Napoleon himself through the American Civil War, and dating back to the 1700s for ship use. A round cannonball weighing twelve pounds is 4.62" in diameter, and that was the size for all 12pdr guns until the British Army changed that in 1859. They wanted a rifled gun firing an oblong shell and figured that the best diameter for that would the three inches. All 12pds (and 13 and 14pdrs) used on ships as anti-torpedo-boat guns right through the First World War were 3" in diameter.

Anyway, back to the main story, if you're still with me. Why on earth did they pick 6.3 inches for the new 64pdr gun? Well, it seems that the old 32pdr roundball was 6.3" in diameter, and they had large stocks of them just sitting around unused, so somebody decided that the new 64pdr gun should be able to shoot them as well, just to get rid of them. Okay, so the new gun is 6.3" across. So why stick with sixty-four pounds? Modern (WW1-era is modern to me) 6" guns fire a 100-pound shell. They could have made the shell for this gun longer and heavier, which would have been a good thing. Or they could have made it shorter and weighing only fifty pounds, which might not have been so good because it would have been less stable in flight. But a longer shell would have been more stable, which is even better.

So why insist on calling it a 64pdr? Because we weren't authorized to make a 6" gun, or a 6.3" gun, we were ordered to make a new 64pdr. We have to design the shell to weigh sixty-four pounds, or it's not a 64pdr anymore!

As I said, that strikes me as extremely odd to say the least, but it also strikes me as so quintessentially British as to make perfect sense, in its own perverse way.

Cybermat47
11-21-12, 10:47 PM
Nice long post.

Very interesting as well! You sure have done your research!

Takeda Shingen
11-21-12, 10:56 PM
So why insist on calling it a 64pdr? Because we weren't authorized to make a 6" gun, or a 6.3" gun, we were ordered to make a new 64pdr. We have to design the shell to weigh sixty-four pounds, or it's not a 64pdr anymore!

As I said, that strikes me as extremely odd to say the least, but it also strikes me as so quintessentially British as to make perfect sense, in its own perverse way.

I could envision the politicians clamoring for more sixty-four pounders simply because that particular shell was, in fact, synonymous with British artillery, both naval and field. Anything else, as was your point, would be un-British. In the hyper-nationalism that prevailed during both Victorian and Edwardian England, anything un-British woud have been frowned upon. The powers that be were most interested in preserving the social status quo, and it would not be a stretch of the imagination that this may also extend to the military status quo.

Red Brow
11-21-12, 11:06 PM
Are you kidding? "Part of the problem is that I'm weird to begin with..." you are one of the ones I believe is not weird.

I collect American antique books, I know a bit what you are talking about. I think it is great that you are rediscovering this data. I hope you one day tabulate it all and publish it.

August
11-21-12, 11:31 PM
I could envision the politicians clamoring for more sixty-four pounders simply because that particular shell was, in fact, synonymous with British artillery, both naval and field.

Nah bigger is always better when it comes to artillery. A 65 or 70 pounder would be very popular.

Sailor Steve
11-21-12, 11:57 PM
I hope you one day tabulate it all and publish it.
I once had someone I told stories to tell me I should write a book. The only problem is that all the information I have came from books someone else already wrote. I just keep spending all my money on those books. People like Norman Friedman, John Campbell, all the folks at Conway's Maritime Press and the Naval Institute Press plus a handful of website owners keep the information available. There are great writers out there with access to the primary sources. I only have access to their work. I also hang out with friends who have similar expertise in other fields, including aviation and general military history.

It's a curse.

Armistead
11-22-12, 12:11 AM
I thought we already had a boredom thread:D

However, I did find it interesting as I use to build model ships.

I purchased a large box lot years ago at a auction that was full of photo albums from the Civil War til about 1930's. It was mostly full of ships and several warships. Many I still haven't figured, maybe I can get them all posted one day.

nikimcbee
11-22-12, 12:53 AM
Nah bigger is always better when it comes to artillery. A 65 or 70 pounder would be very popular.

Especially naval artillery.:dead: A 12lber is about a 4inch bore amd that's waaaay too whimpy for a naval gun. The main armament on the USS Constitution is 24 lber(?). So a 64 pounder almost sounds like a Rodman(?)

Nevermind, I just looked up the specs for a Rodman:dead:. 12 inch bore and......225 lbs shell:dead:. Love to see the crew fire that three times a minute.:dead: They also made a 20 inch rodman.

http://benavon.com/BAAHA/pix/200006/STRIP_2B.jpg

magic452
11-22-12, 01:15 AM
Since someone brought up 64 pounders and such, something that I often wondered about but never bothered to do the research on, when did they change from just shooting steel balls and start using exploding shells?

I'm so old I should remember but the memory just ain't what is use to be.
I'll be Steve remembers as he's a little younger than me.

Good and interesting post as well. :up::up:

Magic

Hottentot
11-22-12, 02:03 AM
I may be stating the obvious here, but I feel I need to say this...


The only problem is that all the information I have came from books someone else already wrote.

Very few historians write a book completely based on the original sources. That would imply it's a subject that has never ever been written about, not even closely, and it's based on some completely new material. Even if the material is completely new, some research on the subject still probably exists. And I can't think of many things more insulting to the fellow researchers as well as the whole science itself than to ignore everything anyone has ever said and claim your work is the ultimate revelation.

Just refer to the already written books properly and build your own ideas based on them, develop their points further or disagree with them. Building new is based on improving the old.


There are great writers out there with access to the primary sources. I only have access to their work.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from accessing the primary sources?

In general, I agree that you already know a lot, have read a lot and definitely know how to put your thoughts on the paper (or the Internet forum in this case) in a constructive way. That's a great start for writing a book.

nikimcbee
11-22-12, 02:09 AM
Since someone brought up 64 pounders and such, something that I often wondered about but never bothered to do the research on, when did they change from just shooting steel balls and start using exploding shells?

I'm so old I should remember but the memory just ain't what is use to be.
I'll be Steve remembers as he's a little younger than me.

Good and interesting post as well. :up::up:

Magic

Do you mean like a modern contact shell? There were the rifled guns, such as a 3inch ordinance rifle, or a parrot rifle.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/philo/images/10PDRammunition.jpg


For a smoothbore gun, they had timerfuse case shot.

http://www.aaamunitions.com/images/split%20case%20shot.jpg

nikimcbee
11-22-12, 02:15 AM
Civil War naval guns:
http://www.unionnavy.org/img64.gif

Raptor1
11-22-12, 02:15 AM
Since someone brought up 64 pounders and such, something that I often wondered about but never bothered to do the research on, when did they change from just shooting steel balls and start using exploding shells?

I'm so old I should remember but the memory just ain't what is use to be.
I'll be Steve remembers as he's a little younger than me.

Good and interesting post as well. :up::up:

Magic

Explosive shells were in regular use on land since around the 17th century, but they were only used on mortars and howitzers, which were too inaccurate for naval combat except on specialized ships (like bomb ships), because they were too dangerous to use with a high-velocity gun. The switch to shells in naval weapons gradually happened between the 1820s and the Crimean War after the invention of the Paixhans gun; the Battle of Sinop in 1853 is the point I usually see referenced as the first major use of which in a naval battle. This also coincided with the simultaneous introduction of screw propulsion and iron armour, which would result in the first ironclad warships.

magic452
11-22-12, 03:43 AM
Thanks Raptor and nikimcbee. :salute: That's what I was looking for.
Explosive rounds go back farther than I thought.

nikimcbee From that chart I take it that shot means steel ball and shell means explosive round.

Magic

Oberon
11-22-12, 06:50 AM
I do love the warships of the period Steve indicates, the pre-dreadnoughts and the early dreadnought classes, there's something about them.
Damn shame they never preserved the Dreadnought, the only battleship to sink a submarine too...

Sailor Steve
11-22-12, 11:16 AM
Especially naval artillery.:dead: A 12lber is about a 4inch bore amd that's waaaay too whimpy for a naval gun. The main armament on the USS Constitution is 24 lber(?). So a 64 pounder almost sounds like a Rodman(?)
I completely forgot! Here is a video of the exact same type of 64pdr as used on Iris being fired.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=256671.0

Nevermind, I just looked up the specs for a Rodman:dead:. 12 inch bore and......225 lbs shell:dead:. Love to see the crew fire that three times a minute.:dead: They also made a 20 inch rodman.
That's wimpy from my point of view. Twelve-inch guns from the pre-Dreadnought era fired a shell weighing 850 pounds.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/HMS_Agamemnon_1906_12-inch_gun_replacement_at_Malta_1915.jpg

Since someone brought up 64 pounders and such, something that I often wondered about but never bothered to do the research on, when did they change from just shooting steel balls and start using exploding shells?
As Raptor1 pointed out, exploding shells were experimented with as far back as the 1300s. They came into common use for ships in the early 1800s. Solid shot was okay for trying to pound in a ship's sides, but the answer to that was to just make the sides thicker. It was realized that an exploding shell could not only kill lots of enemy sailors, but could also start fires, something truly terrifying on a wooden ship with cloth sails and lots of gunpowder lying around. French officer Henri-Joseph Paixhans designed the first gun specifically designed to fire a flat-trajectory exploding shell in 1823. American John A. Dahlgren improved upon this by designing a gun that could fire both shot and shell.

Much earlier than this, in 1784, a British army officer invented a hollow cannon ball filled with musket balls and a small explosive charge, designed to shred a line of troops en mass. It was called case shot, but the flying metal itself still bears his name: Henry Shrapnel.

In the 1890s they developed the base-fused Armor Piercing shell, but it took a decade or so before it was trusted. Throughout that period it was common for ships to carry both AP shell and solid shot, just in case.

Very few historians write a book completely based on the original sources. That would imply it's a subject that has never ever been written about, not even closely, and it's based on some completely new material. Even if the material is completely new, some research on the subject still probably exists. And I can't think of many things more insulting to the fellow researchers as well as the whole science itself than to ignore everything anyone has ever said and claim your work is the ultimate revelation.
John Campbell wrote a series of articles for Warship Quarterly magazine, of which I have several of the bound collected volumes, titled 'British Naval Guns: 1880-1945', detailing the design, construction and use of every British naval cannon of that period. He actually went through the first-hand records to gather his information. Same with David Lyons' The First Destroyers, Campbell's Jutland: An Analysis of the Fighting, R. A. Burt's British Battleships series, Norman Friedman's books on American and British Destroyers and Cruisers, and a great many more. Their reputations allow them access to all sorts of official records, and the money to travel to where the primary sources are.

Just refer to the already written books properly and build your own ideas based on them, develop their points further or disagree with them. Building new is based on improving the old.
I can show where different books disagree with each other, but mostly all I can do is collect them and work on my game.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from accessing the primary sources?
Money, mostly. Travelling to where the material is kept isn't cheap.

In general, I agree that you already know a lot, have read a lot and definitely know how to put your thoughts on the paper (or the Internet forum in this case) in a constructive way. That's a great start for writing a book.
The truth is, while there's no money in it I'm having fun just putting my game together.

TLAM Strike
11-22-12, 11:16 AM
Since someone brought up 64 pounders and such, something that I often wondered about but never bothered to do the research on, when did they change from just shooting steel balls and start using exploding shells?
Well for a time the two types of shells existed side by side, but used different weapons to fire them. (This time period should be obvious if you remember the national anthem).

By the 1860's they had rounds that could be fired from normal guns, although adoption of it was slow.

Gerald
11-22-12, 11:33 AM
How long did it take to reload these guns,:hmm2:

Herr-Berbunch
11-22-12, 11:39 AM
The only problem is that all the information I have came from books someone else already wrote.

If you copy from one author, it's plagiarism. If you copy from two, it's research.Wilson Mizner

Sailor Steve
11-22-12, 01:44 PM
How long did it take to reload these guns,:hmm2:
About 1 minute.

Gerald
11-22-12, 03:27 PM
About 1 minute. That was quick,:)

magic452
11-24-12, 02:26 AM
Well for a time the two types of shells existed side by side, but used different weapons to fire them. (This time period should be obvious if you remember the national anthem).

By the 1860's they had rounds that could be fired from normal guns, although adoption of it was slow.

Actually it was the National Anthem that got me started thinking about this.

@ Steve thanks for the info. Great thread and pics :up::up::up:

Magic

nikimcbee
11-25-12, 11:37 AM
How long did it take to reload these guns,:hmm2:
It's very labo(u)rous to load these guns. (muzzle loaded) For field artillery (12 lbr) you can fire it about 3x /minute. I've seen a Rodman fired (sans round) and it ain't fast. The implements are awkward to handle, plus you must load the powderbad and round (which is the size of a bowlingball:dead:)

nikimcbee
11-25-12, 11:45 AM
I completely forgot! Here is a video of the exact same type of 64pdr as used on Iris being fired.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=256671.0



Australia really needs to modernize their artillery.:haha:

My fav order: "Depress gun!"
What's the point gun, you're just going to miss. You're not as accurate as the other guns. :nope::nope::nope:

:haha:

danasan
11-25-12, 02:33 PM
Australia really needs to modernize their artillery.:haha:

My fav order: "Depress gun!"
What's the point gun, you're just going to miss. You're not as accurate as the other guns. :nope::nope::nope:

:haha:

I think it is good and fast enough - as long as the target doesn't move...