View Full Version : More Holocaust survivors to receive German compensation
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An estimated 500,000 Holocaust survivors are still alive today.
Germany will increase pension benefits to Jewish Holocaust survivors and broaden the category of those eligible for compensation.
The move is part of revisions made to the 1952 Luxembourg Agreement, under which West Germany assumed responsibility for the Holocaust.
As a result some 80,000 Jews in eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union will receive payments for the first time.
To date, Germany has paid an estimated 55bn euros (£44bn; $70bn) to survivors.
The amended accord was signed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and Julius Berman, chairman of the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, to mark the treaty's 60th anniversary."We still do not know the names of all of the victims," Mr Schaeuble said. "The crimes of the Holocaust were so inconceivably enormous that you can't know all of the victims or those with claims, so you have to adjust it again and again.
"In eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, there are still people who were not entitled to make claims. And because those people who were entitled were identified, we said they should also receive [payments]."
Under the new agreement, Jewish survivors in ex-Communist countries are now eligible for a one-off payment of 2,556 euros.
In addition, some 100,000 elderly Jewish victims of the Nazi regime in the region will see their pensions increase from 200 euros per month to 300 euros per month, to match the sum Holocaust survivors elsewhere are already receiving.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20344999
Note: 15 November 2012 Last updated at 17:18 GMT
Tribesman
11-15-12, 05:11 PM
Tribalism.
Jew hating neo nazi
Jimbuna
11-15-12, 07:00 PM
Let us keep it reasonable and sensible please.....
Tribesman
11-16-12, 01:25 AM
Let us keep it reasonable and sensible please.....
It is.
If a legacy state is held responsible for state crimes then it is only correct that their victims get compensation, if a number of uncompensated victims finally get their payout then one must question any objection to those payments.
The earlier post gets to the root of those objections in this case so it is reasonable as it is quick and to the point, and sensible as it is undeniable
Of course, the compensation paid.
Penguin
11-16-12, 09:13 AM
It is.
If a legacy state is held responsible for state crimes then it is only correct that their victims get compensation, if a number of uncompensated victims finally get their payout then one must question any objection to those payments.
^^ this!
To the uninformed: While now compensations were extented to a number of jewish people, the compensations are not exclusive to Jews.
Maybe we could also talk about the compensation of the victims of the Algerian war or about the Algerians who were murdered by the French police at a demonstration in Paris. Or the question how long it took for the French to accept they screwed up there....
Or would this topic be too insensitive, since as a result of the Algerian adventure was that it brought many jewish refugees to France?
I admit I've got to smile a bit reading that news, while remembering a guy called Herman Rosenblat. :haha:
Maybe we could also talk about the compensation of the victims of the Algerian war or about the Algerians who were murdered by the French police at a demonstration in Paris. Or the question how long it took for the French to accept they screwed up there....
Or would this topic be too insensitive, since as a result of the Algerian adventure was that it brought many jewish refugees to France?
If you like, man, no problem with that.
I wanted to demonstrate that most people fall into that 70 years old trap, and just wish to be in fashion getting offended by some things that happened to the greatest victim of all time worldwide : the Chosen People, due to the fact that the poor Chosen People have got to live the holocaust, decades ago. What about black people who've got to be victims of the slave trade ? What about the decimated Amerindian population in North America ? No, man, this is no holocaust, sorry : holocaust = 1942-1944 = jackpotdingdingdingdingdingding. Other than that ? Sorry we don't know what you're talking about.
And while we get you to think about cattle wagons going to death camps, what happens in Palestine ?
The so called Chosen People steal and occupy Palestinian land. Palestinians live the Shoah for more than 60 years now. But well, things could be worse, eh.
Has anyone ever been caring about them, while everyone is showing support to Israel ?
According to the #242 resolution made by the United Nations in 1967, all Israeli armed forces should withdraw from this land.
But they never cared about that so far. Why doesn't anyone just lift a finger and say "hey, but what are you still doing here" ? Because the so-called promised land is protected and subsidised by the world's big boss, the USA.
So now, I don't refuse to recognize the pain the Chosen People have gone through during the second world war. But those who consider themselves as the chosen people, eventually getting some family members going through so much pain at some time in History, are supposed to remember the reason why they've got to suffer. And so, they are not supposed to impose this kind of sanctions to Palestinians, making the shoah a palestinian thing nowadays.
The interest in pain should not be confined to one people only.
But feel free to be selective regarding the pain you're supposed to feel regarding tensions in the Middle East.
I've got to admit that I can't avoid feeling sad about the everyday people who always end up being the victims of that war, be they Palestinians or Israelis.
Takeda Shingen
11-17-12, 09:11 AM
holocaust = 1942-1944 = jackpotdingdingdingdingdingding.
That's what this thread is about.
And while we get you to think about cattle wagons going to death camps, what happens in Palestine ?
The so called Chosen People steal and occupy Palestinian land. Palestinians live the Shoah for more than 60 years now. But well, things could be worse, eh.
Has anyone ever been caring about them, while everyone is showing support to Israel ?
According to the #242 resolution made by the United Nations in 1967, all Israeli armed forces should withdraw from this land.
But they never cared about that so far. Why doesn't anyone just lift a finger and say "hey, but what are you still doing here" ? Because the so-called promised land is protected and subsidised by the world's big boss, the USA.
So now, I don't refuse to recognize the pain the Chosen People have gone through during the second world war. But those who consider themselves as the chosen people, eventually getting some family members going through so much pain at some time in History, are supposed to remember the reason why they've got to suffer. And so, they are not supposed to impose this kind of sanctions to Palestinians, making the shoah a palestinian thing nowadays.
The interest in pain should not be confined to one people only.
But feel free to be selective regarding the pain you're supposed to feel regarding tensions in the Middle East.
I've got to admit that I can't avoid feeling sad about the everyday people who always end up being the victims of that war, be they Palestinians or Israelis.
That is not what this thread is about. Jackpotdingding indeed. We've already got a thread about this. Take it there, orient.
Tribesman
11-17-12, 12:25 PM
Jackpotdingding indeed
It was a typo.
Evil jewish computers altered his text.
holocaust = 1933-1945 = jackbootingtingtingtingtingting
Evil jewish computers altered his text.
yep.
exactly the same computers which altered the number to 6 million :har:
(in the late 1990's in schools we were still fed with the 7 million, not to mention the early post-war calculations which were as funny as the 6 million is today:har:)
Jimbuna
11-17-12, 02:44 PM
yep.
exactly the same computers which altered the number to 6 million :har:
(in the late 1990's in schools we were still fed with the 7 million, not to mention the early post-war calculations which were as funny as the 6 million is today:har:)
So what do you believe to be the true figure?
Platapus
11-17-12, 04:43 PM
There's no business like Shoah Business - Yaffa Eliach
So what do you believe to be the true figure?
something between the actual figure and the future, non-biased calculations.
Jimbuna
11-18-12, 08:40 AM
something between the actual figure and the future, non-biased calculations.
Well, what is that in number terms?
Cybermat47
11-18-12, 05:04 PM
So what do you believe to be the true figure?
I think that it's around 11 million.
That's all the Jews, protesting Christians, autistic people, physically disabled people, Gypsys, Homosexuals, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and anyone else who Hitler didn't like.
Jimbuna
11-18-12, 05:22 PM
I think that it's around 11 million.
That's all the Jews, protesting Christians, autistic people, physically disabled people, Gypsys, Homosexuals, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and anyone else who Hitler didn't like.
You may well be right but thought must be given to that sum....it is a lot more than what has been published of late.....
According To wikipedia, about The Holocaust,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Jimbuna
11-18-12, 05:36 PM
Oh please....no more cut and paste :nope:
Opinions carry far more weight :yep:
Oh please....no more cut and paste :nope:
Opinions carry far more weight :yep: True...but its was so simple,sorry :oops:
Jimbuna
11-19-12, 01:04 PM
True...but its was so simple,sorry :oops:
Hey no problem and definitely not needing an apology :03:
Red Brow
11-19-12, 01:17 PM
With German's slow down in manufacturing at this moment, perhaps it should just issue 'holocaust coupons' that can be redeemed for German goods at a reduced price. That way Germany can slightly help its own workers.
Well, what is that in number terms?
sorry, but if Siemens, IBM and Hollerith couldn't give any precise number, I can't either. But the number can't be bigger than the actual number of them on the occupied territories.
I think that it's around 11 million.
That's all the Jews, protesting Christians, autistic people, physically disabled people, Gypsys, Homosexuals, Lesbians, Bisexuals, Aussie chatterboxes and anyone else who Hitler didn't like.
fixed.:salute:
Protesting Christians?:har:
Ok, so yes, indeed, priests had their own triangle in Auschwitz and catholic priests were a similar group to scientists and politicians, i.e they were caught and executed/sent to camps via planned actions. (not like casual civilians)
With German's slow down in manufacturing at this moment, perhaps it should just issue 'holocaust coupons' that can be redeemed for German goods at a reduced price. That way Germany can slightly help its own workers.
:har:
Do you really think that they need that money for food?:har:
http://incogman.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/BIG-FAT-JEW-LIAR.jpg
Takeda Shingen
11-20-12, 10:24 AM
sorry, but if Siemens, IBM and Hollerith couldn't give any precise number, I can't either. But the number can't be bigger than the actual number of them on the occupied territories.
When I argue that a numerical figure is incorrect, it is usually because I have a figure that I think is correct. Otherwise it's all just hot air.
Tribesman
11-20-12, 12:31 PM
Protesting Christians?:har:
:doh:
What proportion of the clergy in your own country was rounded up by the nazis and sent to concentration camps?
Of course that proportion wouldn't include all those that were rounded up and executed en masse in 1939 under the sonderfahndungsbuch lists.
sorry, but if Siemens, IBM and Hollerith couldn't give any precise number, I can't either. But the number can't be bigger than the actual number of them on the occupied territories.
5.2mil - 6mil is the generally accepted, estimated, figure.
You think that's too many or too few?
When I argue that a numerical figure is incorrect, it is usually because I have a figure that I think is correct. Otherwise it's all just hot air.
If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.
Back to giving advice.
I'm much obliged to you for showing me where to improve.
Now my advice for you: before you tell people what to do, make sure you you have done your homework by grasping at least the essentials of the discussed matter so that you know what you are talking about.
5.2mil - 6mil is the generally accepted, estimated, figure.
5.2 you say? I've never seen that figure tbh. (at least not in any ' officially approved' source).
Good, good. It means that we are going in the right direction. <smiley_face>
Takeda Shingen
11-20-12, 01:46 PM
If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
You made no such argument in that post. You gave a snippy answer and posted a bunch of emoticons. You know, your usual modus operandi.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.
That almost resembles an answer, albeit in a Skybirdian round-about way. You still didn't say what you thought it was, but it looks like it is a close as we are going to get.
Back to giving advice.
I'm much obliged to you for showing me where to improve.
Now my advice for you: before you tell people what to do, make sure you you have done your homework by grasping at least the essentials of the discussed matter so that you know what you are talking about.
See above. Essentials indeed.
Penguin
11-20-12, 03:29 PM
If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.
When you talk about the 3 million figure it's also important to say the source and the time of this claim. Much new information was gained after historians finally had access to the Soviet archives, not before the early 90s. This is why the number went down. Many other non-Holocaust related numbers were also corrected.
This must be funny for people who spew the bull about how Jews control the historic research (or any and all media), that those numbers were relatively quickly accepted by historians. However this is what science is about: new sources, new insights.
The US Holocaust museum writes those numbers
At least 960,000 Jews were killed in Auschwitz. Other victims included approximately 74,000 Poles, 21,000 Roma (Gypsies), and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war; and 10,000-15,000 members of other nationalities (Soviet civilians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, French, Germans, and Austrians).
(source:http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005189)
Regarding the "Straight to the gas": The article above also says that about approximately 320000 of 420000 Hungarian Jews were send directly into the chambers. Why is this an idiotic claim?
The people were registered when the trains took off. The Reichsbahn even got money from the SS for the tranportation (http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/trains.html).
The Selektion happpened at the ramp, when the trains arrived, a well-documented fact. For the people who died during the transport and for those who were of no use (=instant death sentence) there was no bureaucratic necessity to register them on the prisoner list. Why should they, they needed no resources like space in the barracks, food, clothing, etc. So in the cold world of bureaucracy they never arrived in the camps as prisoners.
You made no such argument in that post. You gave a snippy answer and posted a bunch of emoticons. You know, your usual modus operandi.
the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it. Especially when you act according to your modus operandi: read one post, post irrelevant response, being redirected to another post, post another irrelevant response. Read the whole or better don't because it seems like you have come here just to sniff out some imagined problems in my posts. Didn't get my point? I don't care...
That almost resembles an answer, albeit in a Skybirdian round-about way.
I will take that for a compliment.
Regarding the "Straight to the gas": The article above also says that about approximately 320000 of 420000 Hungarian Jews were send directly into the chambers. Why is this an idiotic claim?
The people were registered when the trains took off. For the people who died during the transport and for those who were of no use (=instant death sentence) there was no bureaucratic necessity to register them on the prisoner list. Why should they, they needed no resources like space in the barracks, food, clothing, etc. So in the cold world of bureaucracy they never arrived in the camps as prisoners.
agreed. That's what I meant. But I've seen posts (including axisforums) in which people argued that the 'final' number of victims should be higher because of that 'straight to gas' transports. That's is what I called idiocy, not the fact that they existed as such.
Back to archives. In 20 years or even less we gonna hear about 4 million and no one will be surprised.
Takeda Shingen
11-21-12, 10:48 AM
the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it. Especially when you act according to your modus operandi: read one post, post irrelevant response, being redirected to another post, post another irrelevant response. Read the whole or better don't because it seems like you have come here just to sniff out some imagined problems in my posts. Didn't get my point? I don't care...
yep.
exactly the same computers which altered the number to 6 million :har:
(in the late 1990's in schools we were still fed with the 7 million, not to mention the early post-war calculations which were as funny as the 6 million is today:har:)
As I hope you can read for yourself, you said nothing of the sort in your post. Your statement rang of an arrogant belief that you and you alone knew what the numbers were, hence the line of questioning from Jim, Dowly and myself. If you had stated clearly in the first place, you wouldn't have three different people chasing you around to try and get you to clarify your remarks, no? Getting all butthurt over it won't change anything. Being needlessly rude to Cybermat47 didn't help either. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. Try to do it in a respectful manner too. We could have avoided all of this.
Here endeth the lesson.
the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it.
One does not have to believe in that propaganda. :O:
Back to archives. In 20 years or even less we gonna hear about 4 million[...]
Not unless someone can discredit the data the current estimates are based on and come up with a more creditable estimate.
How cool...people counted in the millions, they had a face and a soul.
Takeda Shingen
11-21-12, 04:21 PM
How cool...people counted in the millions, they had a face and a soul.
MH knows this. He likely had relatives that perished in the Holocaust.
MH knows this. He likely had relatives that perished in the Holocaust. OK! Thanks for info.
Jimbuna
11-21-12, 05:04 PM
MH knows this. He likely had relatives that perished in the Holocaust.
Extremely sad if that is in fact the case :huh:
Hottentot
11-22-12, 01:29 AM
How cool...people counted in the millions, they had a face and a soul.
Welcome to a historian's work.
I'm just saying that when you read enough, you get used to all the bad things you learn about. You don't need to forget nor ignore, but you need to get used to it. There is no way you can keep wallowing on it if you ever want to finish your job. Your tears are not going to bring anyone back or make you a better person. The best you can do is to treat them with the respect they deserve. And not only them, but the perpetrators as well. Your job is not to demonize them any more than they themselves deserve: a trap many hobby historians fall into, painting the world happily black and white.
And for the record, I despise the books that do nothing but present an atrocity after atrocity. That might appeal to someone's inner sadists or their need for social pornography, but I get to see those enough in the original documents that these books get written about in the first place.
Not unless someone can discredit the data the current estimates are based on and come up with a more creditable estimate.
they ain't that stupid. :)
article 55 of the 18.12.1998 act:
-who questions genocide in public and against facts (...)
is liable to a fine or up to 3 years in prison (I know that the translation sucks but I don't have enough time to find the proper law terminology, but i hope u get the idea).
So it is 4m....how cool.
Would you be more satisfied if the figure was bigger than 6 million? :doh:
Hottentot
11-22-12, 03:11 AM
they ain't that stupid. :)
article 55 of the 18.12.1998 act:
-who questions genocide in public and against facts (...)
is liable to a fine or up to 3 years in prison (I know that the translation sucks but I don't have enough time to find the proper law terminology, but i hope u get the idea).
I'm speechless.
Would you be more satisfied if the figure was bigger than 6 million? :doh:
wow...you are so pathetic....
they ain't that stupid. :)
article 55 of the 18.12.1998 act:
-who questions genocide in public and against facts (...)
is liable to a fine or up to 3 years in prison (I know that the translation sucks but I don't have enough time to find the proper law terminology, but i hope u get the idea).
How exactly does that act prevent you (or anyone else) from researching the
data available and coming up with new estimate(s)? :hmmm:
How exactly does that act prevent you (or anyone else) from researching the
data available and coming up with new estimate(s)? :hmmm:
It does not.
But can the approximation of 5.2-6 million be regarded as a fact?
wow...you are so pathetic....
I mustn't answer to such provocations since I'm on probation. :03:
"Der Krieg? Ich kann das nicht so schrecklich finden! Der Tod eines Menschen: das ist eine Katastrophe. Hunderttausend Tote: das ist eine Statistik!"
Hottentot
11-22-12, 10:18 AM
But can the approximation of 5.2-6 million be regarded as a fact?
Unless you or someone else proves it wrong, it's as much of a fact as we can get. This should be self evident for anyone with university education, heck, anyone with any education at all. These facts can and will be questioned, but "it's propaganda" is no questioning. It's sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LAALAALAA". It's no different from calling the world flat because you personally believe it's flat and then insisting that calling the world round is propaganda.
I mustn't answer to such provocations since I'm on probation. :03:
Whatever...i dont really care.
Now lets pretend that it is inteligent conversation...carry on...
This should be self evident for anyone with university education, heck, anyone with any education at all.
Ah, yes - so obvious.
If it's so simple, let's confront your definition of a fact with the wiki definition of a fact:
'A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.'
So, which has really occurred - 5.2? or 6? or 5.5?
For me, the approximation 5.2-6 is only a speculation (OALD: the act of forming opinions about what has happened or what might happen without knowing all the facts).
The problem begins when a law forces you to take speculations for facts and punishes you for not complying.
Hottentot
11-22-12, 02:14 PM
If it's so simple, let's confront your definition of a fact with the wiki definition of a fact:
'A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.'
So we are to suppose that Julius Caesar never lived? How can you know for sure?
The problem begins when a law forces you to take speculations for facts and punishes you for not complying.
Law forces no such thing.
Tribesman
11-22-12, 02:21 PM
The problem begins when a law forces you to take speculations for facts and punishes you for not complying.
Yet that law doesn't exist, the law you are on about says you cannot challenge the facts of nazi crimes as documented in the nazi governments own papers.
Hottentot
11-22-12, 02:31 PM
Have you stopped beating your wife, Tribesman?
Tribesman
11-22-12, 02:36 PM
Have you stopped beating your wife, Tribesman?
No:D
You can see why kranz has a problem with this law though can't you.
It means that as well as being silly when he claims certain things didn't happen he is breaking the law because the Germans documented what they did
Hottentot
11-22-12, 02:44 PM
You can see why kranz has a problem with this law though can't you.
I personally can't see how it relates to anything in a first place. What law is that? A one set by the Illuminati which is going to murder you for a thought crime, no matter where you are?
Ignoring for a moment that the argument is silly, does that law prevent a foreign researcher from studying the documents and publishing in a foreign country? What are they going to do about it? Read and censor each and every note taken by all the researchers in the world (for such a popular subject there should be many) and rip them apart if they aren't happy with it?
^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Poland
Hottentot
11-22-12, 02:55 PM
So I repeat the question: I go there, research, take notes, come back to Finland and in a year or two publish a book where I outright deny that Holocaust ever happened (after which I will hopefully apply to the nearest mental asylum.) What are they going to do? Come here and arrest me?
So I repeat the question: I go there, research, take notes, come back to Finland and in a year or two publish a book where I outright deny that Holocaust ever happened (after which I will hopefully apply to the nearest mental asylum.) What are they going to do? Come here and arrest me? No, it will probably be difficult according to current Finnish law to put you behind bars, you will not get many followers who agree with you in what you say, that denial.
What are they going to do?
Absolutely nothing.
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