Scientific American: "Antiscience Beliefs Jeopardize U.S. Democracy"

[Skybird]

Link: Scientific American essay (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=antiscience-beliefs-jeopardize-us-democracy)

Disillusionizing.


In Brief

A large number of major party contenders for political office this year took antiscience positions against evolution, human-induced climate change, vaccines, stem cell research, and more.

Such positions are surprising because the economy is such a big factor in this election, and half the economic growth since World War II can be traced to innovations in science and technology.

Partisans at both ends of the political spectrum have been guilty of science denialism. But the Republican version is particularly dangerous because it attacks the validity of science itself.

U.S. voters must push candidates and elected officials to express their views on the major science questions facing the nation or risk losing out to those countries with reality-based policies.

[August]

Oh Skybird, what would you do without us to judge? :hmm2:

[Skybird]

Oh Skybird, what would you do without us to judge? :hmm2:

Going after the EU, Germany, the Euro, corrupted politicians, economic lobbyists, predatory capitalists, politically correct good-doers, gender-engineers, Islam, my new extremely noisy neighbours who after three months already are at war with half of the street.

Sorry if this disappoints you, but America is not the only but just one of several points on the list.

BTW, I am neither the editor nor the owner of the Scientific American. Despite the misleading title, last time I checked it was still an American-made publication. ;)

[August]

BTW, I am neither the editor nor the owner of the Scientific American. Despite the misleading title, last time I checked it was still an American-made publication. ;)

So? It's a German posting it. Who made you the judge of us or anyone else?

[Betonov]

So? It's a German posting it. Who made you the judge of us or anyone else?

Because the same crap is happening in your, mine, his... every country that isnt a theocracy.

But, the situation may be unpleasant, it's not catastrophic. Science is not hindered by religions. Apart from stem cell research, which science managed to adapt by researching other sources than fetuses.
All this anti-science talk is a way to be loud. pro-science people will just need to be louder

A smart believer will suport science, a dumb atheist will still not contribute

[Herr-Berbunch]

Despite the misleading title, last time I checked it was still an American-made publication. ;)

:har:

[yubba]

If there was a sure cure for cancer, there would be billions lost in the drug industry, look what's going on in the energy industry in America, even I was dumded down years ago that we had no oil here, what a suprise that we have so much under our feet and we have so many denying the fact, and you know what,, global warming is really cause by all those windmills slowing the atmosphere down so it can't cool its self:hmmm::woot::03::haha: not to mention how many birds that are killed:nope:. If you want to get rid of co2 in the air grow more trees and stop these third world countries from cutting down their forest to make charcoal. I think some where it says we are ranked 7th in the worlds economy and we fell out of the top ten prosperious nations in the world.

[August]

Because the same crap is happening in your, mine, his... every country that isnt a theocracy.
Well, in your defence, he could have written in the title ''western democracy''

Skybird sees himself as an authority of just about everything. For the past 7 years that I've been reading his posts here i've found that he loves to cherry pick negative articles in order to pronounce his judgements as if they actually had any value.

[Betonov]

Skybird sees himself as an authority of just about everything. For the past 7 years that I've been reading his posts here i've found that he loves to cherry pick negative articles in order to pronounce his judgements as if they actually had any value.

He's the devils advocate on the forum. He even gets some of them right.

I can be the sunshine positive optimist of this forum if you want someone to balance Sky out. :sunny: But I'll probably shoot myself after a week :D

[Tchocky]

Yubba, the amount of birds killed by wind turbines is proportionally minuscule compared to cats and other predators.

[yubba]

Yubba, the amount of birds killed by wind turbines is proportionally minuscule compared to cats and other predators.
Well I haven't seen a cat take down a bald eagle lately.

[Betonov]

my cat once caught a hawk. the last time I saw it was somewhere above the Alps

[yubba]

my cat once caught a hawk. the last time I saw it was somewhere above the Alps Sorry for your loss, at least big birds do not grab people,, that was a favorite saying,, momma yubba says,, got it from Bullwinkle and Rockie show.

[August]

He's the devils advocate on the forum. He even gets some of them right.

Self-appointed devils advocate. :)

I can be the sunshine positive optimist of this forum if you want someone to balance Sky out. :sunny: But I'll probably shoot myself after a week :D

I don't know if it's even possible to balance out such awesome and terrible negativity but please don't try. I like reading your posts and wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself! :)

[gimpy117]

Well, in the cold war we too to science like fish to water,

now...candidates have to pretend that the world is 6,000 years old just to get a vote.

It's silly to expect our technological advantage to continue at this rate

[MH]

Well, in the cold war we too to science like fish to water,

now...candidates have to pretend that the world is 6,000 years old just to get a vote.

It's silly to expect our technological advantage to continue at this rate

Actually life goes on while others make headlines.

USA is very colorful country with a lot of things going that are hard to swallow for europeans.
I personally see this diversity as a merit even thou it may cause all sorts of headlines.

I also wonder why this particular thing came up just now lol.


.......

[Sailor Steve]

And August has successfully managed to steer the discussion away from the article itself, which is actually pretty interesting, whether you agree with it or not.

[Catfish]

my cat once caught a hawk. the last time I saw it was somewhere above the Alps

imagining the picture :rotfl2:


now...candidates have to pretend that the world is 6,000 years old just to get a vote.
Now let me see, when did the last ice age end .. 15000 b.C. ?
The Minoans started their business around 5000 b.C. this roughly makes 7000 years from now now.

This site is roughly 12000 years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Since i studied geology and paleontology don't let me digress to dinosaurs and why they cannot have lived with humans.

But then, is it necessary for a president to know that :hmm2:

[Tribesman]

even I was dumded down years ago that we had no oil here,
How dumb does someone have to be to ever think that?
Even fictional backwoods hicks like the Clampetts knew about Texas tea:rotfl2:

not to mention how many birds that are killed:nope:.
But please mention it
wind power 20,000
coal and oil power 14,000,000
damn them turbines eh:doh:

[Herr-Berbunch]

my cat once caught a hawk. the last time I saw it was somewhere above the Alps

imagining the picture :rotfl2:

This one?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/suitedhooks/f1f66a0e.jpg

You may now return on topic. :up:

[August]

And August has successfully managed to steer the discussion away from the article itself, which is actually pretty interesting, whether you agree with it or not.


Have patience Spanky. It's just page 1.

[Betonov]

I like reading your posts and wouldn't want to see you hurt yourself! :)

Good thing you werent here one hour ago when I managed to got stuck in the woods with my car. And then getting unstuck :doh:
I hope the boss wont need me tommorow, a visit at the mechanic is a must :/\\!!


Back on topic:

Actually life goes on while others make headlines.

USA is very colorful country with a lot of things going that are hard to swallow for europeans.
I personally see this diversity as a merit even thou it may cause all sorts of headlines.


THIS !!!!
There's enough scientific oriented Americans to cancel out the bible nuts. They just prefer to read books and do research than scream at others

[Sailor Steve]

Have patience Spanky. It's just page 1.
:rotfl2:

Okay, will do. :sunny:

[Tribesman]

THIS !!!!
There's enough scientific oriented Americans to cancel out the bible nuts. They just prefer to read books and do research than scream at others
Two problems there, the ones that scream are also very zealous and keep pushing till they get it, the ones that read and research will just look at the screamers and think "loonies" then go back to the books.
Just look at how the cretinists keep digging away at education by getting myths labelled as science.

[August]

THIS !!!!
There's enough scientific oriented Americans to cancel out the bible nuts.

Not just cancel out but overwhelm them by several orders of magnitude. The foreign press (and ours as well) like to play up the idea as being pervasive throughout our society but in reality it is pretty rare to find someone who actually believes it.

[Skybird]

Has anyone here even cared to read that article, which is 6 pages? Steve seems to have read it - but any others of those talking in here?

In other words does anyone in here beside Steve know what he is talking about and what this thread is about?

Just curious...

:03:

[Tribesman]

Has anyone here even cared to read that article
Of course not, I didn't read the Presidential candidates anwsers either though I must say Romney does go on a bit while sayiong little and seem to contradict many of the statements he has made during the campaign, but I suppose thats because he is targeting the audience of the journal and not his party fanbase.

[Betonov]

Two problems there, the ones that scream are also very zealous and keep pushing till they get it, the ones that read and research will just look at the screamers and think "loonies" then go back to the books.
Just look at how the cretinists keep digging away at education by getting myths labelled as science.

The smart people need some good PR people because of that. To scream louder than the cretinists

Not just cancel out but overwhelm them by several orders of magnitude. The foreign press (and ours as well) like to play (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1957421#) up the idea as being pervasive throughout our society but in reality it is pretty rare to find someone who actually believes it.

It's the medias's fault as always. I mean it, I'm not sarcastic. But thats the price of free press. If they're not influenced they'll report on what sells

[Armistead]

American politics is changing, the fundy Christian mindset is hurting the GOP more than helping it, but those running for high office still need the bible belt.
Frankly, it should terrify anyone to have a president that doesn't believe in evolution or believes the earth is 6000 years old.

[Buddahaid]

Yes I read it and all I get from it is nothing has changed other than information of all kinds gets disseminated faster and farther thanks to science.

[Oberon]

I thought this thread was about pancakes? :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

I thought this thread was about pancakes?
That would be a batter topic

[Sailor Steve]

You're really scraping that one.

[Buddahaid]

You're really scraping that one.

Don't be so flippant.

[u crank]

...candidates have to pretend that the world is 6,000 years old just to get a vote.

It's silly to expect our technological advantage to continue at this rate

Don't worry about it. It's all smoke and mirrors.

This.


But, the situation may be unpleasant, it's not catastrophic. Science is not hindered by religions. Apart from stem cell research, which science managed to adapt by researching other sources than fetuses.
All this anti-science talk is a way to be loud. pro-science people will just need to be louder

Very good point.

A smart believer will support science, a dumb atheist will still not contribute.

Even better point.

Pass the maple syrup. :D

[Betonov]

Pass the maple syrup. :D

I never had pancakes with maple syrup. I really got to visit the US soon
:Kaleun_Salivating:

[Sailor Steve]

Don't be so flippant.
I can see you're not trying to butter me up.

I never had pancakes with maple syrup. I really got to visit the US soon
:Kaleun_Salivating:
:o

I can't imagine having them any other way. I've tried most of the pancake-house variations, and many are good, but I always come back to butter and maple syrup. Well, actually cheap imitation syrup. The real stuff is very expensive.

[CaptainMattJ.]

There never has been a purpose for these organized religions, in my opinion. And their staunch ideologies have clashed and still clash today with progressive ideas.

as sort of a de-facto requirement to be president they need to be religious for some reason or another, because it matters to people. With around 80% of the population being christians, it translates into the president gets big points for being a follower of a sect of christianity. But a presidential candidate who is atheist is still today looked down upon. It does noticeably affect his appeal to people. This is something that i still dont understand to this date. Any select organized religion bases it's belief system on an unanswerable question, the question of "where did it all come from" Science has explained everything except the ultimate question of where did everything begin (the big bang not explaining how the universe suddenly popped into existence from nothing). That question can't be answered. Therefore there are an infinite number of ways everything couldve suddenly come from nothing.

For instance, i could claim that the big bang was caused by Me and 24 sea otters finishing off the most epic choreography routine ever, and it's just as plausible as Christianity because the question doesn't have an answer. Therefore, no matter what you believed it shouldn't be relevant because anything is possible and unless that belief is immoral by general societal standards, it shouldn't have an effect on their appeal as a candidate for office.

The reason i suspect it matters is because of people's belief that with religion comes morality, which is in my opinion a terrible thing to think. Religion shouldn't be the source of your morality, you should be a morale person even without the need to believe in a religion.

(on a side note, pancakes without syrup is like having a cake and not being able to eat it. It's like opening up a whole new world of sugary goodness)

[August]

The real stuff is very expensive.

But worth it. Especially if it's his first time. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

True dat. :sunny:

[NeonSamurai]

I never had pancakes with maple syrup. I really got to visit the US soon
:Kaleun_Salivating:
That made me blink in confusion a little. Canada is more the capitol of maple syrup. Most Americans I know have corn syrup (not even the fake maple syrup) with their pancakes, in fact it can be a pain in the butt finding the real stuff here (and damn expensive). It is heavenly though (and I grew up in the maple syrup capital of the world, Quebec).

So have we totally derailed the thread yet?

[Buddahaid]

Grew up in California and I've never heard of people using corn syrup!?

[Sailor Steve]

So have we totally derailed the thread yet?
This thread had rails? I thought it was an off-road vehicle from the start.

[NeonSamurai]

Grew up in California and I've never heard of people using corn syrup!?

Table syrup like aunt Jemima's. It's base is usually some variant of corn syrup

[August]

Table syrup like aunt Jemima's. It's base is usually some variant of corn syrup


Nasty stuff, full of chemicals and preservatives. Real maple syrup is pure maple sap extract and far better tasting.

[Sailor Steve]

Table syrup
That's the term I was looking for! :sunny:

Nasty stuff, full of chemicals and preservatives. Real maple syrup is pure maple sap extract and far better tasting.
We really poor people can't even afford real 'table syrup'. I have to buy the even cheaper house brands. It's okay, though. They work fine on my cheaper house brand frozen waffles. :dead:

[Penguin]

Once you had maple syrup on your pancakes or french toast, you'll can never accept a substitute again and have a mild contempt for folks who put powdered sugar on it.

But what do I say, as a Kraut I have no right to discuss North American food... :88) - just as Americans have no right to discuss German food like Hamburgers...

Back off-topic:
Science is not hindered by religions.

Well, if religous nutters gain too much political influence, then it can become a problem. Much research is still funded by the state. Just imagine where space exploration would be without government funding during the 50s and 60s, private spaceflight is still pretty young.

However I am glad that there are still enough people who have no problem with believe and science, even in crusty institutions like the Vatikan: Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican Observatory director says (http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=18503)

Science is and should be seen as “completely neutral” on the issue of the theistic or atheistic implications of scientific results, says Father George V. Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, while noting that “science and religion are totally separate pursuits.”
Very wise words :up: - unfortunately Coyne lost his job shortly after this statement, allegedly because Benedict was no real fan of him.

[the_tyrant]

Ok, I go to Costco to buy boxed Belgian waffles, than, I throw on lots of butter, and lots of maple syrup.

That is the way to enjoy it.


Also, PS, I don't see much corn syrup, but than, I live in canada:O:

[August]

That's the term I was looking for! :sunny:


We really poor people can't even afford real 'table syrup'. I have to buy the even cheaper house brands. It's okay, though. They work fine on my cheaper house brand frozen waffles. :dead:


Send me your home address and maybe Santa will send you some for Christmas.

[Sailor Steve]

Send me your home address and maybe Santa will send you some for Christmas.
It would be wasted on me. I'm a Philistine where taste buds are concerned. I actually like canned spaghetti. :dead:

[Buddahaid]

Table syrup like aunt Jemima's. It's base is usually some variant of corn syrup

That I know but it's still a maple type. I thought you meant just plain corn syrup.

[Penguin]

Ok, I go to Costco to buy boxed Belgian waffles, than, I throw on lots of butter, and lots of maple syrup.


Barbarian! :timeout:
Just because you live in the land where maple syrup flows, doesn't give you the right to use it on products of questionable quality! :O:

So on to your local bakery and get some good waffles! :shucks:

[Sailor Steve]

So on to your local bakery and get some good waffles! :shucks:
How lame! Make your own. I really do sometimes make pancakes, and once I can afford a waffle iron the frozen ones will be gone. Of course I still have to get a car first. And a bike. And a new computer. And books. Still have lots of books on the list. But someday I'll get a real waffle iron.

I already have a popcorn popper. :D

[Takeda Shingen]

I get back after finally having internet service again and am greeted by another anti-religion discussion. Gotta love Skybird.

[Betonov]

I get back after finally having internet service again and am greeted by another anti-religion discussion. Gotta love Skybird.

Well, first we were like
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/403526418_fdf8cff6d9.jpg


But then this happened
http://eiinsider.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/derailed-train.jpg


And now were here
http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/4095/images/4095_MEDIUM.jpg

[u crank]

Welcome back Takeda.

Hope ya like pancakes. :haha:

[mookiemookie]

My favorite waffle recipe:

2 cups (10 ounces) unbleached all-purpose flour
1 tablespoon sugar
3/4 teaspoon table salt
1/2 cup dried buttermilk powder
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 cup sour cream
2 large eggs
1/4 teaspoon vanilla extract
1/4 cup vegetable oil
1 1/4 cups unflavored seltzer water

INSTRUCTIONS
1. Adjust oven rack to middle position and heat oven to 250 degrees. Set wire rack in rimmed baking sheet and place baking sheet in oven. Whisk flour, sugar, salt, buttermilk powder, and baking soda in large bowl to combine. Whisk sour cream, eggs, vanilla, and oil in medium bowl to combine. Gently stir seltzer into wet ingredients. Make well in center of dry ingredients and pour in wet ingredients. Using a rubber spatula, gently stir until just combined. Batter should remain slightly lumpy with streaks of flour.

2. Heat waffle iron and bake waffles according to manufacturer’s instructions (use about 1/3 cup for 7-inch round iron). Transfer waffles to rack in warm oven and hold for up to 10 minutes before serving with butter and maple syrup.

[Takeda Shingen]

Thanks guys. I got power back on Saturday morning and we came home from my brother's. Unfortunately, the cable lines were cut along with the power lines, and Verizon finally got around to it today. Not a moment too soon either. I was going through some pretty serious SubSim withdraw.

And pancakes are just fine.

[August]

How lame! Make your own.

How can you be a taste bud philistine and a pancake snob at the same time? :hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

I get back after finally having internet service again and am greeted by another anti-religion discussion. Gotta love Skybird.
Well, technically it's an anti-anti-science discussion. Which brings up an important question: Is proper waffle technique a science or an art? And how much faith is involved?*



* Lots, if you're letting your kids do it for the first time.

[Sailor Steve]

How can you be a taste bud philistine and a pancake snob at the same time? :hmmm:
1. It's easy. Just close your eyes and go for it.

2. Pancakes are different.

3. Look! A birdie!

4. Actually I like to make my own spaghetti sauce as well. I just like the cheap stuff too.

5. Can we go back to the science and religion stuff?

[Tchocky]

That's it - coffee and homemade pancakes in the morning before building the new PC.

Good to hear you're doing well, Tak.

[Cybermat47]

5. Can we go back to the science and religion stuff?

Yes.


NOW.

[August]

A good maple syrup over homemade buttermilk pancakes is a religious experience...

[Cybermat47]

A good maple syrup over homemade buttermilk pancakes is a religious experience...

Well, fair enough!

Personally, I prefer just to have butter on mine :yeah:

[August]

Well, fair enough!

Personally, I prefer just to have butter on mine :yeah:

Philistine! :)

[Oberon]

I would say something about sugar and lemon at this point but I fear I'd get a lynch mob after me.... :03:

[Cybermat47]

Philistine! :)

What?!

[Skybird]

5. Can we go back to the science and religion stuff?

Science okay, but how many people here have even cared enough for reading the article, to see that it was about slightly more than just religion...? :hmmm:

Democrats as well as Republicans, economic opportunists and the greener-than-green Greenies get their slice of the blame pie, too.

P.S. No sirup for me please, I find it terrible. Pancakes only with lemon juice and some sugar.

[Armistead]

My hope is that more religious people will apply enough critical thinking that they're able to drop mythical beliefs such as Noah's flood and Adam and Eve starting the human race 6000 years ago. I have found critical thinking almost always leads to liberal progression in life and politics. Sadly, some can't apply critical thinking because they believe in another myth. eternal torture, so out of fear of monsters and demons they stick their head in the sand, which sadly includes their brain.

Not sure the above is on topic with the OP or how we prefer our pancakes, seems topics always stray into how we like women or food, so blah,,,

[August]

My hope is that more religious people will apply enough critical thinking that they're able to drop mythical beliefs such as Noah's flood and Adam and Eve starting the human race 6000 years ago. I have found critical thinking almost always leads to liberal progression in life and politics. Sadly, some can't apply critical thinking because they believe in another myth. eternal torture, so out of fear of monsters and demons they stick their head in the sand, which sadly includes their brain.

So in other words you want billions of people worldwide to trade in their religious beliefs for yours?

Not sure the above is on topic with the OP or how we prefer our pancakes, seems topics always stray into how we like women or food, so blah,,,

Probably because most people would rather change the subject instead of letting themselves get irritated by the blatant contempt and disrespect that the anti-religious sect continually spew in these threads.

[Oberon]

That, and these topics are ten a penny. We've done this to death, let's move on. :yep:

[Randomizer]

Probably because most people would rather change the subject instead of letting themselves get irritated by the blatant contempt and disrespect that the anti-religious sect continually spew in these threads
As opposed to letting themselves be irritated by the lies, delusions, blatant contempt and disrespect continually spewed from the religious on these threads...

Now an attempt to return to what matters:

What about French Toast? (aka Freedom Toast in the Bush The Younger era) Syrup or with sugared berries and whipped cream? Or something else entirely?

[Sailor Steve]

Butter and syrup, thanks. :sunny:

[Takeda Shingen]

As opposed to letting themselves be irritated by the lies, delusions, blatant contempt and disrespect continually spewed from the religious on these threads...

Now an attempt to return to what matters

Not so fast. You level an accusation, you'd better back it up. Where are the anti-science threads? Where are the anti-atheist posts? Where is the disrespect toward non-believers?

[Betonov]

I'd love an anti-science post.
But I just can't get myself to write against something that keeps my asthma in check, allows me to travel the long distance to my place of education in a reasonable time, saved my fathers arm after that logging accident and will eventually allow me to live a long live despite that diabetes that everyone says I'm eventually going to get.

Here's an anti-atheist post
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uieQJSaRXxk/TC0uU0O9WiI/AAAAAAAAB6A/aaGwNZN7rpA/s1600/atheism1.jpg

[August]

As opposed to letting themselves be irritated by the lies, delusions, blatant contempt and disrespect continually spewed from the religious on these threads...

Bull. You look at the last 100 religion threads in this forum. They're nearly all started by atheists for the purpose of displaying their hatred of religion and their contempt for the religious. Like any of us don't get it already.

To you their beliefs are lies and delusions and then you have the nerve to call it contempt and disrespect when they don't meekly agree with your message of hate. Now that is contemptible.

[u crank]

I like pancakes.

Science okay, but how many people here have even cared enough for reading the article, to see that it was about slightly more than just religion...? :hmmm:

Yes, I read it. The comments are far more interesting than the article. Anyway I think it's mostly bunk. I'm sorry but I just don't believe it's possible and with good reason. It's wrinkly and green. Business, industry, Wall Street, the military, higher education and yes Government all have far to much invested in scientific research and development to ever let anything or anyone interfere with its progress. It's always about the money. Always.

Last paragraph from article.

In an age when science influences every aspect of life—from the most private intimacies of sex and reproduction to the most public collective challenges of climate change and the economy—and in a time when democracy has become the dominant form of government on the planet, it is important that the voters push elected officials and candidates of all parties to explicitly state their views on the major science questions facing the nation. By elevating these issues in the public dialogue, U.S. citizens gain a fighting chance of learning whether those who would lead them have the education, wisdom and courage necessary to govern in a science-driven century and to preserve democracy for the next generation.

When has this ever mattered when it comes to getting elected? I don't think politics has evolved to that level yet. We're more concerned with where someone was born or how much tax they paid. Maybe someday.

My hope is that more religious people will apply enough critical thinking that they're able to drop mythical beliefs such as Noah's flood and Adam and Eve starting the human race 6000 years ago.

I think you would be surprised at just how many religious people do not believe in a literal reading of these texts. It is just not necessary when it comes to believing in a Creator.

My brother in law puts blueberries in his pancakes. Yummie.:yep:

[Skybird]

When has this ever mattered when it comes to getting elected? I don't think politics has evolved to that level yet. We're more concerned with where someone was born or how much tax they paid. Maybe someday.

What does it tell about the state of a "democracy", when success in in elections id decisively influenced by the amount of money candidates can mobilize to run campaigns and media adverts of either obvious stupidity or hate-filled vitriol? Is he who mobilises more money, more democratic and thus more legitimate? A read a reference to an analysis that should have shown that in 94% of elections for president and houses, the candidates who were able to set up more money for their campaign, made the race.

And as an Austrian commentator that i read yesterday has noted, to whom does Obama now owe his loyalty? to those that gave him their ballot, or those who invested billions and billions of dollars into him? A president obviously owing to big business, candidates obviously being depending on financial investments by big business players - that is not acceptable for a functioning democracy, but since it is being done since a very long time, one really has to ask whether this democracy really is democratic.

It is well-documented that since years I'm saying on this board that I know of now democratic country in the western world anymore. I make no exclusion from that statement. I do not exclude Germany - and certainly not the United States.

Congress is dominated by Republicans, who are now in bitter disappointment, and the Tea Party will react by what it does best: it will become even more vicious and underhanded in its verbal rethorics. The republicans refuse to realise that American society is undergoing massive structural changes, both regarding wealth distribution and ethnic composition, in other words: the Republicans are loosing their core voters, slowly, but constantly.

So the Reps need to make a decision whether they try to become even more right-leaning and trying mnore of what the yhave tried the past years alkrerady, then Obama's appeal for reconciliation already has been made in vain, and congress will stay deadlocked for the next two years at least. which means Obama already has failed as president again. That may make Republicans smile, but for the country it is a disaster. Or the Reps learn how to steal voters from the Democrats, then the reps would need to send Tea Party and the like to hell.

And here is where the science dispute could start to play a role again. The majority of Green voters who abuse and distort science like Scientific American also describes, because being green for them is more quasi-religious belief and Green must be believed to be good, no matter what, would probably stay with the Democrats because them are more prone and vulnerable for political correctness. The more reasonable and realistically thinking Greens could be absorbed by the Republicans if they give up their anti-scientific rants and belief-based dogmas, which would help their reasonability and trustworthiness tremendously.

But that is just academic guessing, I admit. Meanwhile, the US face monumental problems and constantly declining finances, and a political landscape that remains to stay deadlocked in deep division and to a not low degree in hate as well.

That Austrian commentator I mentioned, asked whether Obama really could see himself as a winner. From a certain point of view, Romney, the second-placed, is the winner of first prize: he is free to live as he wants now. Becasue all Obama won, is this: the astronomical debts problem, fiscal cliff, looming budget disaster, political bipartisanship, Iran, China, Pakistan, education, lacking modernisation of powergrid and infrastructure, doubts on the education and health system - and to tackle all that: empty treasure chests and a congress that almost certainly will do its best to throw sticks between his legs at every opportunity and bring him to fall. :) Well, Mr. Obama, enjoy your victory. I think these four yeasrs will be worse than the past four years. In parts, it will be Obama's fault, in parts it also is the Republicans fault, but the biggest share of guilt has to be accepted by the American people who legitimize this farce.

[Takeda Shingen]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Skybird, your understanding of US politics is rudimentary at best. I will illustrate below.

Congress is dominated by Republicans

It is not. In the House of Representatives:

Republican: 233
Democrat: 193

Balance of power is at 218. This is not a supermajority.

US Senate:

Democrat: 53
Republican: 45
Independent: 2

One of the two independents will caucus with the Democrats, who are the majority party. The Democrats also picked up seats in both houses of Congress. Overall, Congress is split.

and the Tea Party will react by what it does best

The so-called Tea Party was not a major factor in the 2012 general elections. In fact, Michelle Bachmann, the self-appointed Tea Party spokesperson, barely won reelection.

Obama's appeal for reconciliation already has been made in vain

Actually, John Boehner has indicated a desire to work with the president. Whether these olive branches will last has yet to be determined, but to claim it has been in vain three days after the general election is premature to say the least. Some light reading on the matter:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324439804578108971200674876.html

So the Reps need to make a decision whether they try to become even more right-leaning and trying mnore of what the yhave tried the past years alkrerady

You've got it backwards, Skybird. The Republicans have already pulled to the far right, hence the results. They now seem to be planning a shift towards the center on social issues and immigration. See Gargamel's thread from earlier today.

And here is where the science dispute could start to play a role again. The majority of Green voters who abuse and distort science like Scientific American also describes, because being green for them is more quasi-religious belief and Green must be believed to be good, no matter what, would probably stay with the Democrats because them are more prone and vulnerable for political correctness. The more reasonable and realistically thinking Greens could be absorbed by the Republicans if they give up their anti-scientific rants and belief-based dogmas, which would help their reasonability and trustworthiness tremendously.

The Green Party boasts a membership of around 300,000 registered members. Green Party politicians hold no national offices. No one is making a play for them. Your entire premise is erronious.

But that is just academic guessing, I admit.

If that's what you are calling it, fine. But you are guessing using incorrect information. As such, your conclusions are also incorrect.

That Austrian commentator I mentioned

Well, there's your problem. You seem to be getting news from sources that do not understand what is going on over here.

[Armistead]

Bull. You look at the last 100 religion threads in this forum. They're nearly all started by atheists for the purpose of displaying their hatred of religion and their contempt for the religious. Like any of us don't get it already.

To you their beliefs are lies and delusions and then you have the nerve to call it contempt and disrespect when they don't meekly agree with your message of hate. Now that is contemptible.

If you study the history of religion, you'll realize most doctrines were created or redefined by the upper classes to control the masses with fear and guilt. Maybe this was needed in the days of yore, when people feared the unknown, weren't educated, women had no rights, etc. The truth is religion and politics were a two headed monster for most history and really did nothing but insure the powerful to remain so.

Let's face it, the GOP is full of right wing religious radicals that would use government to insure and promote their beliefs on others. It doesn't matter who wins the nomination when you have nuts like Palin, Bachman, Ryan, etc., in the background basically preaching through politics. Their religious residue will stick to the GOP, hurting moderates. These nuts are biased, racist and want to promote their views of morality through government. You would or wouldn't be surprised the number of leading government leaders that still believe in myths over science, that follow a literal bible, wanting to impose a culture on us that existed thousands of years ago. I'm more socially liberal, but fiscally conservative and I tire of losing elections over religious right.

[Tribesman]

Not so fast. You level an accusation, you'd better back it up. Where are the anti-science threads? Where are the anti-atheist posts? Where is the disrespect toward non-believers?
Good point, I havn't seen a single post here claiming that Hurricane Sandy was a weather system created by sodomy.
There havn't been that many cretinism topics and the only noticable anti non religious are written in yubberish so they don't really couint

[mookiemookie]

http://frigginloon.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/gangnam-hurricane.gif

[Oberon]

/thread

[August]

If you study the history of religion, you'll realize most doctrines were created or redefined by the upper classes to control the masses with fear and guilt. Maybe this was needed in the days of yore, when people feared the unknown, weren't educated, women had no rights, etc. The truth is religion and politics were a two headed monster for most history and really did nothing but insure the powerful to remain so.

Let's face it, the GOP is full of right wing religious radicals that would use government to insure and promote their beliefs on others. It doesn't matter who wins the nomination when you have nuts like Palin, Bachman, Ryan, etc., in the background basically preaching through politics. Their religious residue will stick to the GOP, hurting moderates. These nuts are biased, racist and want to promote their views of morality through government. You would or wouldn't be surprised the number of leading government leaders that still believe in myths over science, that follow a literal bible, wanting to impose a culture on us that existed thousands of years ago. I'm more socially liberal, but fiscally conservative and I tire of losing elections over religious right.

And what does any of that have to do with what I said?

Whatever the level of influence the religious right has on the GOP it still doesn't justify the constant insult and contempt that some here continually display about peoples personal beliefs. Do they think their contempt and disdain is going to open a believers eyes to their viewpoint?

If anything such disrespect gives your hated religious right the very influence you bemoan. It's a lot easier to keep people in line with fear when there is an element of truth to the story they can verify for themselves. One but has but to go to anywhere the anti-religious left frequents, internet forums especially, to find that verification. It doesn't matter if it is authored by some pimply faced teenager just to get a rise out of stuffy grownups, the vitriol is constant and vicious and anonymous.

[Buddahaid]

Yubberish! :haha:

[Armistead]

Good point, I havn't seen a single post here claiming that Hurricane Sandy was a weather system created by sodomy.


You should try a fundy religious forum

[Armistead]

And what does any of that have to do with what I said?

Whatever the level of influence the religious right has on the GOP it still doesn't justify the constant insult and contempt that some here continually display about peoples personal beliefs. Do they think their contempt and disdain is going to open a believers eyes to their viewpoint?

If anything such disrespect gives your hated religious right the very influence you bemoan. It's a lot easier to keep people in line with fear when there is an element of truth to the story they can verify for themselves. One but has but to go to anywhere the anti-religious left frequents, internet forums especially, to find that verification. It doesn't matter if it is authored by some pimply faced teenager just to get a rise out of stuffy grownups, the vitriol is constant and vicious and anonymous.

Well, I've never attacked personal beliefs of anyone here and I don't know that I've ever seen anyone else do so on a personal level. Nor do I want to convert someone, except maybe to the principle "love others"

[August]

Well, I've never attacked personal beliefs of anyone here and I don't know that I've ever seen anyone else do so on a personal level. Nor do I want to convert someone, except maybe to the principle "love others"

Well I hope you realize that it wasn't directed at you personally.

[Armistead]

Well I hope you realize that it wasn't directed at you personally.

I don't take anything personal on the internet, not to be confused with things I find offensive, like Steve's avatar.

[u crank]

Yubberish! :haha:

Found on an anonymous and fictitious web site.

Yubberish:

Also known as Yubbareeze in every day language and in the more intellectual circles Yubbaspeak. A condition common among humans which causes a disconnect between speaking skills and common sense. It afflicts many and is equally prevalent in both right and left handed people. It sometimes occurs in tandem with another ailment, FIE syndrome, [fingers in ear] which results in the afflicted not being able to hear their own voice. If left untreated those who suffer sometimes end up having conversations with inanimate objects, usually television sets or computer screens. Although those who suffer are usually kind individuals when this involuntary disease crops up it causes embarrassment among friends and family members. Those who suffer are quite often misunderstood and there are rumours about special camps to help these individuals. Those not currently suffering are asked to be understanding with those who are, and what ever you do please do not drink from the same glass.

This disease is highly contagious.

Experts are working on a cure. Please be patient.

[Armistead]

Found on an anonymous and fictitious web site.

Yubberish:

Also known as Yubbareeze in every day language and in the more intellectual circles Yubbaspeak. A condition common among humans which causes a disconnect between speaking skills and common sense. It afflicts many and is equally prevalent in both right and left handed people. It sometimes occurs in tandem with another ailment, FIE syndrome, [fingers in ear] which results in the afflicted not being able to hear their own voice. If left untreated those who suffer sometimes end up having conversations with inanimate objects, usually television sets or computer screens. Although those who suffer are usually kind individuals when this involuntary disease crops up it causes embarrassment among friends and family members. Those who suffer are quite often misunderstood and there are rumours about special camps to help these individuals. Those not currently suffering are asked to be understanding with those who are, and what ever you do please do not drink from the same glass.

This disease is highly contagious.

Experts are working on a cure. Please be patient.

We all grow old, no need to name it something else.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't take anything personal on the internet, not to be confused with things I find offensive, like Steve's avatar.
What would you like me to change it to? I'm always open to suggestions. :sunny:

[Tribesman]

You should try a fundy religious forum
Yes, but that was about this forum wasn't it, not some crazy literalist zealots siteof any of the flavours.
What I find more common here is not the level of religious/anti religious stuff, but more of the "this religious"/anti "that religous" stuff.