So is this it!

[craigt47]

Hi,

New here so a big HELLO to all. I have been playing silent hunter since the old days. It is great game. However, is this really where UBIsoft are going with it!

I am sure that as online game it will be fun. But, i am guessing that most of us play that game because we enjoy simulation. It does seem to me that when UBIsoft get there hands on games there focus is on the bottom line. Where the bottom line would come when they offer the customer what they really want.

Rant over! LOL - But is this the end of the Silent Hunter Series as we know it?

[RedMenace]

I don't understand who this game's market is. It's too hardcore for a casual player and too casual for a hardcore player.

It's like Ubi hates money.

[TorpX]

It's like Ubi hates money.

:har:


For Ubi, it is a love-hate relationship.

They love money, but hate their customers.

[thebeasle]

I don't understand who this game's market is. It's too hardcore for a casual player and too casual for a hardcore player.

Yep. Microsoft Flight had the same problem.

[Nemesis1024]

An online option of the Silent Hunter series wouldn't be that bad if only it wasn't a browser game...kind of like a slap in the face if you ask me.:doh:

[SubV]

Browser or not, it doesn't really matters.

They already killed the series with SH5, now they just want to put the final nail to the coffin.

Thank you, Ubi.

[Gendall]

It's not only Ubi, it's all over the place (I mean in the gaming market).
The producers want to earn more and more money and in the same time, invest less and less.

Why bother producing games that would please a little comunity of hardcore players when we can achieve bigger sales with the casual gamers ?

Gaming is dying.

[Kaleun_Endrass]

They already killed the series with SH5
I think they started killing it with SH4. When the suits showed us that they are just interested in the money they can make by releasing an unfinished game and then stopped patching. The add-on we thought will fix the issues was just another money-making trick of them. I might be willing to say they did a better job with SH5...

[Sonarman]

SHV I think was a victim of poor project planning, the decision to completely overhaul the interface was the first major error. Imposing a linear path RPG elements in a supposedly dynamic game the second. Then either the project ran out of time to develop the full war timescale or they planned an addon which never materialised. The final nail in the coffin was of course the horrible always on DRM system which should never have been imposed on what is essentially a single player offline experience.

SHO also seems ill conceived but at least it is an evolution and it certainly is something that has not been done before, in gameplay terms it reminds me more of the ancient Novalogic "Wolfpack" title than any SH game. I am prepared to give it a chance. For a supposedly dead niche genre Ubi seem intent on making another attempt when most of us had completely given up hope of seeing anything from them again. I just wish they would ask what their community want before starting work rather than when the project is virtually complete.

Gotta disagree partially that it's all about the bottom line, sure Ubi is a business and they have to make money but why in the name of hell would they sink their money into something as niche and risky as a subsim supposedly is? It's not that they hate their customers it's that they think they know best and do not listen enough to their own communities. What they need is a brand manager/consultant from the community (someone like Neal) who can play an important part in each stage of the development process, shaping their products based upon the majority of community's wishes.

[dau]

I just wish they would ask what their community want

Frankly, we heard phrases like "hardcore players would notice that!" or "doing X that way, would upset the community" quite often during the development of SHO. I guess it's safe to say that people here are very much aware about what is wanted by whom.

However, pleasing everybody is hard. Especially people who face a browser game for the first time after having played "ordinary" SH titles for years and having according expectations. Why don't you give it a try, accept it as it is and try it out unbiased? Nobody claims that it's a full-scale successor of an existing title - being a browser game, it certainly has limitations but also offers a whole lot of fancy new stuff that's worth checking out!

Yesterday I saw a beta tester stating that he "played it again for five hours in a row" and that it's "potentially addictive".
Apparently we did _something_ right then ;)

[Sonarman]

Hi Dau & Welcome aboard!

I am ready to give the game a try as I indicated above. To me the new direction is interesting and somewhat unique, I think the main problem the game currently faces here is that most players expect a Silent Hunter title to be a first person "you are there" kind of experience whereas SHO is really functioning at a more detached higher level of command, not necessarily a bad thing, just a different experience, a "bit of a shock to the system". But to quote Captain Ramius from the Hunt for Red October "A little revolution once in a while is a good thing... don't you think?"

Bluebyte has a great track record as far as strategy titles go and I certainly hope that the game will be a success for you and in turn encourage Ubi to develop SHO further, hopefully adding playable surface units from the allied side at some point along perhaps with a more traditional first person simulation Silent Hunter Experience as a parallel development.

[AOTD_MadMax]

It's not only Ubi, it's all over the place (I mean in the gaming market).
The producers want to earn more and more money and in the same time, invest less and less.

Why bother producing games that would please a little comunity of hardcore players when we can achieve bigger sales with the casual gamers ?

Gaming is dying.

Thats called "TurboCapitalism"

Regards

Maddy

[TwoGamers]

Much to casual :wah:

[Nordmann]

Much to casual :wah:

You don't have to play it.

[Takeda Shingen]

It's not only Ubi, it's all over the place (I mean in the gaming market).
The producers want to earn more and more money and in the same time, invest less and less.

Why bother producing games that would please a little comunity of hardcore players when we can achieve bigger sales with the casual gamers ?

Gaming is dying.

No, gaming is a more lucrative industry than ever. It's simulations that appear to be on life support. And the problem that UBI ran into with SH5 was that the product didn't appeal to either the hardcore fan nor the casual gamer that generally does not have an interest in naval warfare. Slap on that the ridiculous DRM and there is hardly a reason to wonder why it was a failure.

It was true what was said about the Silent Hunter series in that the end began with SH4. Once the business end started getting heavy handed with the devolpment end, the vision that the dev team had for their series stood no chance. SHO is simply the end product.

[nikimcbee]

SHV I think was a victim of poor project planning, the decision to completely overhaul the interface was the first major error. Imposing a linear path RPG elements in a supposedly dynamic game the second. Then either the project ran out of time to develop the full war timescale or they planned an addon which never materialised. The final nail in the coffin was of course the horrible always on DRM system which should never have been imposed on what is essentially a single player offline experience.

SHO also seems ill conceived but at least it is an evolution and it certainly is something that has not been done before, in gameplay terms it reminds me more of the ancient Novalogic "Wolfpack" title than any SH game. I am prepared to give it a chance. For a supposedly dead niche genre Ubi seem intent on making another attempt when most of us had completely given up hope of seeing anything from them again. I just wish they would ask what their community want before starting work rather than when the project is virtually complete.

Gotta disagree partially that it's all about the bottom line, sure Ubi is a business and they have to make money but why in the name of hell would they sink their money into something as niche and risky as a subsim supposedly is? It's not that they hate their customers it's that they think they know best and do not listen enough to their own communities. What they need is a brand manager/consultant from the community (someone like Neal) who can play an important part in each stage of the development process, shaping their products based upon the majority of community's wishes.

:salute: I need to buy you a beer. Great points.

SHV I think was a victim of poor project planning, the decision to completely overhaul the interface was the first major error. Imposing a linear path RPG elements in a supposedly dynamic game the second.

Redefining the interface was a really stupid move I think. If you have never played a subsim, it's not that big of a deal, but if you've ever played a subsim, those changes are big because you can't seemlessly change between games.

SH5 reminds me more of the sims at sea. I gon't over the eye candy really fast.

SHO also seems ill conceived but at least it is an evolution and it certainly is something that has not been done before, in gameplay terms it reminds me more of the ancient Novalogic "Wolfpack" title than any SH game.

That was the first thing I thought when I saw it.:haha:



In regards to the business side, I blame the bean counters higher up in the food chain. I don't think they have any interest in naval wargames. You really need to have people that have an interest in the product to promote it. That's the exact problem E:RT had with Dreamcatcher. E:RT was selling well, but Dreamcatcher spent all their money and time promoting some other shooter game:shifty:.

It would be like subsim promoting fantasy games. It would get a thread and nothing else.

[Red October1984]

Maybe ubi will cut this project down and end SH before they ruin it too much. I secretly hope that they do a Silent Hunter 6: Cold War type of game. I have this hope that they end the series on a high note. Since SH5 released, Cancer has spread throughout the Naval Simulation Community. It's dead. Done deal. Sim Gaming is done for. If you select the "simulation" genre on any gaming website, The Sims 3 and MLB 2K13 comes up.

We're a dying breed.

THE END IS NEAR CHILDREN! :ping:

[Cybermat47]

THE END IS NEAR CHILDREN! :ping:

Unless we, the players, make ourselves an epic sub sim, and all the money from it goes to Neal.

It's time to think BIG

:hmm2:

[HundertzehnGustav]

SHIII for life.

[Sailor Steve]

AOD for life! :O:

[Red October1984]

What if...


There was the gameplay of AOD and the Graphics of SH3 put together in one game....

Somebody should do an AOD mod for SH3. :hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

What if...


There was the gameplay of AOD and the Graphics of SH3 put together in one game....
Better the graphics of SH5.

Somebody should do an AOD mod for SH3. :hmmm:
RUB, NYGM, and GWX were all attempts to do just that. AOD had great gameplay, but was a very simple program. There is no way that AOD could be adapted. What is needed is a new game, completely new, combining the best routines with the latest graphics. Even then I can think of some ideas even AOD didn't have.

What I can't do is come up with several million dollars to produce and market what would be needed.

[Takeda Shingen]

RUB, NYGM, and GWX were all attempts to do just that. AOD had great gameplay, but was a very simple program. There is no way that AOD could be adapted. What is needed is a new game, completely new, combining the best routines with the latest graphics. Even then I can think of some ideas even AOD didn't have.

What I can't do is come up with several million dollars to produce and market what would be needed.

Ultimately, yes, we'd need a new engine to get everything we want. And outside of an indie developer, I don't see that happening.

[Red October1984]

Ultimately, yes, we'd need a new engine to get everything we want. And outside of an indie developer, I don't see that happening.

All Indie Developers UNITE!

[Cybermat47]

Perhaps we could give SHIII the graphics of SHV? Hopefully 3 has the right sort of engine, and it's been done before. Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary is a game from 2001 that was given all new graphics in 2011, without changing gameplay at all. Perhaps we could try something like that? :hmm2:

[Sailor Steve]

Perhaps we could give SHIII the graphics of SHV?
Been discussed several times before, and it's not possible. Much easier to give SH3's gameplay to SH4. Actually, SH4's is better, except for a couple of parts they broke. If modders had paid more attention to SH4 it would be much better than SH3. But that didn't happen, and likely never will.

Now if someone could just figure out how to get the good parts of SH3 into SH5, that might make a difference. There are still a few things AOD and SH1 did that none of the newer versions seem to be able to replicate. We'll see what the future holds.

[reignofdeath]

Been discussed several times before, and it's not possible. Much easier to give SH3's gameplay to SH4. Actually, SH4's is better, except for a couple of parts they broke. If modders had paid more attention to SH4 it would be much better than SH3. But that didn't happen, and likely never will.

Now if someone could just figure out how to get the good parts of SH3 into SH5, that might make a difference. There are still a few things AOD and SH1 did that none of the newer versions seem to be able to replicate. We'll see what the future holds.

Its definately possible, it just takes time like any good thing. Couple that with the fact that SH5 is probably the last Sub Simulation that UBI will put out or that will be out for a while, and I feel that eventually, as each modder tinkers away more and more, SH5 will get better and better.

[Sailor Steve]

Its definately possible, it just takes time like any good thing.
First, it's "definitely" (sorry, that's one of those little things that make my teeth hurt).

Second, it would require rewriting the code to take the new graphics, which would land the programmer in jail, or at least get him a heavy fine. So no, putting SH5's graphics into SH3 isn't going to happen.

As for rewriting the code, that's exactly what the SH5 team did, and they made it modable on top of it. Current mods have already come far toward getting similar gameplay, and the campaign and ships are hopefully just a matter of time.

Couple that with the fact that SH5 is probably the last Sub Simulation that UBI will put out or that will be out for a while, and I feel that eventually, as each modder tinkers away more and more, SH5 will get better and better.
Put SH5 graphics into SH3? No. Give SH5 decent gameplay and a real campaign? Probably. Add ships to SH5? I hope so. It sure seems to be taking a long time though.

And no, I'm not knocking the modders over that. I'm just wondering how possible/feasible some things really are.

[Madox58]

Add ships to SH5? I hope so. It sure seems to be taking a long time though.

And no, I'm not knocking the modders over that. I'm just wondering how possible/feasible some things really are.

If anyone did a search to find out just how many people are seriously picking apart the GR2 format?
They would find that SubSim modders are the closest thing to experts outside of RAD Games Tools that you can find that tell you anything.

TDW is working on a great program for SH5 and I had a big hand in whacking the SWTOR style GR2 file format.
:D

But there's only two of us and we both have heavy work schedules in real life.

It will happen. Just not tomorrow.

[Sailor Steve]

Cool. I'm looking forward to it, but with appropriate patience. I only wish I had the skills to contribute to something like this.

[Red October1984]

Cool. I'm looking forward to it, but with appropriate patience. I only wish I had the skills to contribute to something like this.

Don't I know that feeling...I wish I could help out the modders....But sadly...I do not know how.

[Hawk66]

I'm not a WWII-sub fan or player (although I've enjoyed the Silent Service games from Microprose a lot in my childhood) - but it's interesting that the WWII sub genre seems to face a similar problem like the modern sub genre (a la Dangerous Waters) in terms of discontinuity a couple of years ago - although the size of the community for WWII sub sims is much larger.

[Bilge_Rat]

I dont see the use of rehashing the history of the SH series or engaging into yet another UBI-bash thread. Of course the SH series is dead, but you can't say it's all UBI's fault, the consumer has to bear part of the blame.

We have always known Ubisoft is in the market to make money, well guess what?, that's how the free market system works, you make a profit or you go bankrupt.

Wargames are a niche market and subsims are in an even smaller niche. According to UBI's own figures, the entire SH series from SH1 to SH5 sold 1,500,000 units which sounds like a lot until you find out that Assassin's Creed 3 alone sold 7,000,000 units in just the FIRST MONTH.

Major publishers are becoming like major film studios, just looking for the next blockbuster. At least we should give UBI credit for sticking with the SH series instead of just bailing out of the sim market like every other major publisher back in 1999-2000.

Yes, the SH series was never hard core enough for some, but UBI never hid the fact that they were aiming for a subsim-lite that was fun to play. It is easy to blame UBI for not putting out a ultra realistic sub simulation, but they never said that was their goal.

A lot of people say the SH series started to go downhill with SH4. Well guess what, SH4 fully patched worked great and fully modded is now one of the finest subsims around. I still play it regularly.

A lot of people tore apart SH5 and refused to buy it. I bought it, played it, looked under the hood and with all the mods that have come out, it could soon rival SH3/4. There were a lot of realism improvements/features that were packed into SH5.

Were SH4 and 5 perfect? Of course not, but when you refuse to buy a subsim, the message you are sending is not: "we want a ultra-realistic subsim", it is rather "there is no market for this subsim crap, make another Assassin's Creed instead".

A lot of people were secretly hoping that UBI would drop the SH series so that another developper would rush in to fill the void. Well, UBI stopped all work on SH5 almost 3 years ago, but I don't see a rush of new ultra-realistic subsims being developped. As the old saying goes: "be careful what you wish for, it may come true." :ping:

[Sandman_28054]

I'll say this: I'm glad my son bought me this for Christmas this year. If I would have bought it like I originally intended to, I'd be extremely disappointed.

[Nexus7]

Assassins Creed? Sure.

And about MMO games ?

About WoT (march 2012): World of Tanks has 20 million registered users, making double-digit million profits monthly

Why should a tank simulator be extremely more appetible than a sub simulator ?

[elanaiba]

I really don't want to get into this but have you played World of Tanks - since you're calling it a simulator?

[Bilge_Rat]

I really don't want to get into this .....

You know you want to though. NDAs are such a pain...:D

[Red October1984]

You know you want to though. NDAs are such a pain...:D

Everybody loves a good "This game is/isn't a simulation" argument!

LET'S DO IT!!!! :arrgh!:

[PL_Andrev]

Assassins Creed? Sure.

And about MMO games ?

About WoT (march 2012): World of Tanks has 20 million registered users, making double-digit million profits monthly

Why should a tank simulator be extremely more appetible than a sub simulator ?

People love:
- free games, (SH series is not for free)
- simple games, (ok, simple mode available here)
- many units playable game, (just German or US units, right?)
- multiplayer games, (no counterfight with humans)
Just a fresh look is needed. Since SH3 UBI has no idea to develop Destroyer Command 2 although community sign it many times. Now we will have free available navy games: World of Warships (in development) and WarThunder (in development, only planes available to play).

[BigBANGtheory]

What people want is quality and variety at an affordable level.

Ubisofts business model is to find and recycle a winning formula with minimal investment/risk.

...and so the deadlock between publisher and consumer continues.

So what you need is a developer prepared to demonstrate quality and thus generate a market prepared to pay for continued development. This model has proven to work with DCS which btw isn't without its faults, but they are tolerated due to the immense quality in other areas.

I personally think SH5 had (still has) the potential for this had development continued for another 2yrs, which obviously required consumer backing. The key to getting that backing is communication and trust, again a succesful trait of the DCS series.

que elanaiba's kickstarter campaign.... :rock:

[Madox58]

Maybe Ubi is out of the WWII SubSim market. Maybe not.

So SHO might be a way to increase interest in and draw more people to a future project?
:hmmm:

No source nor SDK has ever been released.
No objections to what Modders do with files but alot of inclusions based on past mods and modders work and suggestions.
No major objections from modders about those inclusions or suggestions.

There is a base for co-operation between Ubi and Modders.
There's even been rumors/past examples of such a co-op.

Now, since Ubi wants/needs to make money?
And We want more Units that look as good as the base Units. (as a start)
The 3d modelers build them, send them to Ubi for conversion to GR2 format, then have the modders do the sim and other work.
The modders send them back and Ubi can make a few bucks selling an expansion pack.

Say this works out and We all stand behind it and fork out a few bucks to buy this expansion. (I know I would)

A trust may be built that could lead to some access to source that would allow the Modder programers to correct problems that Ubi is not going to correct otherwise.

Again, Ubi needs a way to make money so We buy the fixes from them.

I see it like this.......
It's that way or no way.

As someone that owns his own business?
If I don't make money? I don't do any work for you.

My Modding work is my hobby and I never make money off of it.
I'd gladly do free work for Ubi on an SH5 expansion/bug fix given a chance.

It's time to quit complaining and start makeing offers to get what We want.

All I want is a chance to help Ubi make money while I get the results that so many here want.

[Sailor Steve]

That is a brilliant plan. If it can be made to work, I'll buy it.

Promise. :sunny:

[BigBANGtheory]

It would be interesting if Blue Byte ran this as a project for Ubisoft, then they would have 2 revenue streams from the franchise with minimal effort on their part.

They would also split the risk between a browser based game and a proper PC sim.

Then if the market grows to a sufficient size you have a business case for developing a more modern subsim.

I suspect though Ubisoft HQ is wrapped up in assessing purchasing assets and IP from the demise of THQ atm.

...but yes in principle sim players should accept the true cost of continued development, and sim developers need to accept community participation if they want success.

[Madox58]

That is a brilliant plan. If it can be made to work, I'll buy it.

Promise. :sunny:

It was only me thinking out loud. So it's more like a gropeing for anything.
It would be 'a brilliant plan' IF someone from Ubi responded.
(Which I will not be holding my breath on)

This Community has all the skills, talent, knowledge, and will power any Game Company should be fighting to embrace.
I won't even mention how professional everyone here is.
(Oh Crap! I did anyway :D)

[Sailor Steve]

How very unprofessional of you. :O:

[Madox58]

How very unprofessional of you. :O:
Yea. That will cost me in the long run.
:haha:
(I'm only useing the laffy face cause that's what people @ Ubi are probably doing in the short run)

Say TDW gets his program working perfectly?
Ubi woud not make a dime and a whole mass of Cool stuff is free for the downloading.

Sure it may help sales of the base product but the real money woud be in the Modder created stuff.
That's free stuff.
Unless Ubi gets smart right now.

Set something up with Modders that don't cost Ubi any big amount of cash out?
But they get a bigger income from the final results?
Call me stupid! But I always take free labor when I can get it!

SH5 would probably not even be around if not for past work by Modders?
I'm pretty sure somethings wouldn't be what they are if not for them.

[AOTD_MadMax]

Yea. That will cost me in the long run.
:haha:
(I'm only useing the laffy face cause that's what people @ Ubi are probably doing in the short run)

Say TDW gets his program working perfectly?
Ubi woud not make a dime and a whole mass of Cool stuff is free for the downloading.

Sure it may help sales of the base product but the real money woud be in the Modder created stuff.
That's free stuff.
Unless Ubi gets smart right now.

Set something up with Modders that don't cost Ubi any big amount of cash out?
But they get a bigger income from the final results?
Call me stupid! But I always take free labor when I can get it!

SH5 would probably not even be around if not for past work by Modders?
I'm pretty sure somethings wouldn't be what they are if not for them.



100% Agreement to yours !

Regards

Maddy

[elanaiba]

So what you need is a developer prepared to demonstrate quality and thus generate a market prepared to pay for continued development. This model has proven to work with DCS which btw isn't without its faults, but they are tolerated due to the immense quality in other areas.

I personally think SH5 had (still has) the potential for this had development continued for another 2yrs, which obviously required consumer backing. The key to getting that backing is communication and trust, again a succesful trait of the DCS series.


I'm a big fan of what DCS / ROF are doing in general. But I think you're proposing something like episodic gameplay or at least limited releases such as DCS - buy A10 separately, for example.

While I'm with you, perhaps you weren't around for the wall of anger raised when it was announced that SH5 would only have the type VII in and just the '39 - 43 part of the campaign?

The plan was to have the rest added in addons, of course... but people didn't like that. If SH3 came with everything (well, SH5 added some stuff like the VIIA), the other games had to have it, no matter if there was any extra detail level involved!

[Julhelm]

That probably had a lot to do with sub sims traditionally being of the survey variety. Flightsimmers have been used to single-platform sims since the 80's.

[TorpX]

The plan was to have the rest added in addons, of course... but people didn't like that.
This would be a perfectly acceptable solution to me. I do want a well modeled and highly detailed subsim, and I understand that takes more time and will cost more. I would much rather pay more and get something good, than have a bargain basement game riddled with flaws.

The problem I see here, is that Ubi does not stick with anything very long. (Other businesses seem to have the same attitude.) If it's not an instant hit, they move on to something else. Did they really consider this?

[elanaiba]

Yeah, but the plans were not very definite and waited for the success of SH5, of course, to see if its worth doing it.

[AOTD_MadMax]

The problem for me is very simple.

Ubisoft simply misjudged the strength of the modders.
How Privateer wrote before, it would have been very useful to leave the 3D modell-work in the hands of the modders.
This would mean that the programmers got more time for the code.

A good boss has to coordinate the task workflows reasonable.
Using the example of SH5 you can see that this principle was not observed at all.

In this case, only the refuse of the head of the hydra provide change.

Regards

Maddy

[elanaiba]

I'm not sure I follow you Maddy, our programmers work wasn't really impacted by the volume of 3D work - which is done by other guys?!

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend or portray SH5 as the greatest perfect planned project, it's bollocks. I'm just trying to be factual and share a few points about SH series evolution vs players expectations.

Now of course we have to realize that if SH5 would have been the perfect game / sim and word of mouth of the early adopters / reviews would have been great, even those not buying because of the "only type VII" issue may have been convinced. Add the DRM debacle on top of that, and you have more reasons than not to keep on the fence :(

[HundertzehnGustav]

have to agree there for a moment.



no type 9, but a darn near perfect type 7 = sit on the fence, interested, and nervous.



Good hope that a Type 9 and all the extras of a Type 9 can be added (mod or buy) later = SH V bought without hesitation.


DRM = turn around and go back to SHIII, no matter what SH V is or could be.

[Julhelm]

Yeah, the DRM scheme really hurt the game. I can understand putting it on something like Asscreed 2 which pirates will pirate but not a niche game like SH5.

[Bilge_Rat]

That probably had a lot to do with sub sims traditionally being of the survey variety. Flightsimmers have been used to single-platform sims since the 80's.


yes, but those days are over. The economic model where you would pay $50-70 upfront and get a complete game no longer makes business sense. Costs have gone up and the number of potential customers are limited.

All the succesful recent sims, ROF, DCS, Third Wire, Combat Mission have moved to a building block approach. Even IL-2 would force you to rebuy the game every few years if you wanted to get the latest updates/new content.

I had suspected UBI had similar plans with SH5, since it contains code for Type II and IX U-boats. I would say one of the biggest obstacle was the lack of communication from UBI to explain their goals.

If you look at Combat Mission, their first generation games were all survey types. For their second generation games, they moved to a building block approach, but the Devs went to great length to explain the business reality and how a more focused approach would actualy produce better content for the consumer.

If UBI had a dedicated spokesman to explain their approach and that they actually care about sub simulations as more than just numbers on a balance sheet, they would get a lot more slack and support from the sim community. ROF, DCS and Combat Mission had all their share of misteps, bugs, missing features, but we forgive those because we know the Devs are committed to producing a quality sim.

[dcb]

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Deh, stii vorba aia... Iadul e pavat cu bune intentii. (Romanian proverb)

In terms of moddability, the series went downhill since SH3.

SH3 had a very active modding community because it could be easily modded by the guy with average computer skills. It still has the highest number of mods and supermods of the franchise, and this has nothing to do with it being the oldest. SH4 was a setback with this regard, with fewer modders involved and fewer supermods.

As for SH5, yes, it may be more moddable than the previous games, as you say, but modding its core (I don't mean sounds and visuals) is only accessible to the most technically competent people, skilled with Python and machine code. And this special breed of modders is not very common to any gaming community. The moment you decided to get into scripts, you turned away most of the modders that worked miracles with the previous installments.

For the latest game in the series, it was a lifesaver having TDW and Trevally obstinately committed to SH5, else the game would have been unplayable, the way Ubi pushed it on the market. Just remember the half-baked campaign it came with, and the fact that you hadn't even programmed a rudder control in the initial interface.

You say: Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell...

True! Any technology change should have in mind the skills of the public it addresses. It is my personal opinion that, had you decided to stick with the technology of SH3&4, improve it and incorporate the features demanded by the community in the already tested (and tweaked) engine, the end result would have been the masterpiece we all awaited. And the modding community would have thrived as well.

Best regards,

dcb

[elanaiba]

I had suspected UBI had similar plans with SH5, since it contains code for Type II and IX U-boats.

In general I agree with everything you say in this post but the plans to go "VII only" came mid-way project when we discovered how hard it was to get even the VII done with all that it involved regarding full 3D interior and stuff that was planned -crew running around, crash dive etc - so it was a question of "wait to get everything done and fail by lack of money, or delay a part for the add-on". Then of course we planned for add-ons, expansions, etc.

In fact we even had the type II modeled to great extent, had the chief modeler go to Finland to visit and document the Vesikko, and so on.

On another note we also had the "Gorch F ock" modeled to great extent as a visitable unit, but that's another plan we didn't manage to put on screen.

[elanaiba]

Deh, stii vorba aia... Iadul e pavat cu bune intentii. (Romanian proverb)

In terms of moddability, the series went downhill since SH3.

SH3 had a very active modding community because it could be easily modded by the guy with average computer skills. It still has the highest number of mods and supermods of the franchise, and this has nothing to do with it being the oldest. SH4 was a setback with this regard, with fewer modders involved and fewer supermods.

As for SH5, yes, it may be more moddable than the previous games, as you say, but modding its core (I don't mean sounds and visuals) is only accessible to the most technically competent people, skilled with Python and machine code. And this special breed of modders is not very common to any gaming community. The moment you decided to get into scripts, you turned away most of the modders that worked miracles with the previous installments.

For the latest game in the series, it was a lifesaver having TDW and Trevally obstinately committed to SH5, else the game would have been unplayable, the way Ubi pushed it on the market. Just remember the half-baked campaign it came with, and the fact that you hadn't even programmed a rudder control in the initial interface.

You say: Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell...

True! Any technology change should have in mind the skills of the public it addresses. It is my personal opinion that, had you decided to stick with the technology of SH3&4, improve it and incorporate the features demanded by the community in the already tested (and tweaked) engine, the end result would have been the masterpiece we all awaited. And the modding community would have thrived as well.

Best regards,

dcb

Dan, I can't agree here.

I think you're confusing modability (the technical part of the game that allows mods) with modding - the extent to which a game is modded or popular with modders.

Modability went downhill from SH3 to 4 probably because:
-in general less players were interested in SH4 (US boats) than in SH3
-many people were spent after modding the hell out of 3
-modding SH4 (or 5) meant starting much from scratch, which is hard to justify to yourself after spending months, years of your life on the previous game

There are still a bunch of great mods available for SH4 and have always been, but many people have no interest in them. And there's also a bunch of people that will say that "with SH3 + mods they have no need for SH4/5". Of course, part of the failure in the communication plan of Ubisoft is that we didn't convince these people otherwise. Now SH4 was a project that was also buggy, but so was 3! People just forgive a lot when thinking of SH3, as it came after the long hiatus from SH2 - which was generally considered not so good - and brought a great technology step forward!

Now, we can discuss technology a lot but anyone would be hard pressed to prove how using hex editing and 3rd party built programs (that you have to wait for to be developed) is somehow more accessible than simple scripting? Show me what mods were done for SH3 that can't be done for 5 ... except ships hacking, I can't think of any.

Hell, I know at least one person that got the SH3 internal tools from me and worked with them ... most had to rely on excellent tools that were built by other people. With SH5 - you got them in the release version!

There are some technology issues with SH5 mods, but in general, it was the same for 3! It's just that with a less successful product and the huge base that SH3 already offers, there's less drive to work on it.

However, I see a very active forum of SH5 modders, some great work already done and some very happy players. I'd just say people THINK its not as modable ?!

Now, the technology changed was needed as the old one was buggy, original code writers were gone, code was not extensible. Sure it could have been done much better, and in general its hard to defend SH5 technology as being awesome and well done ... but some if it truly is!

Also, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is not strictly Romanian :)

Hope you don't get me wrong and I might sound a little aggressive, that's not the intention, I'm just going after some facts and misconceptions. We can always have a beer and chat. Remember I'm no longer in the Ubi office / email, though.

Dan

[dcb]

Hope you don't get me wrong and I might sound a little aggressive, that's not the intention, I'm just going after some facts and misconceptions. We can have always a beer and chat. Remember I'm no longer in the Ubi office / email, though.

No offense taken, indeed, especially not from a friend. I think we both understand each other's point of view, and this is the best about it. I'm all for the beer and chat:03:.

And BTW, I'm no longer a journalist either:)

Restul, in PM.


Edited because of PM box full

Voiam sa-ti trimit PM cu datele mele de contact, ca sa ne mai auzim/vedem si noi, dar ai casuta plina. In acest caz, nu prea stiu cum sa dau de tine. Oricum, mobilul si emailul meu personal au ramas aceleasi. Dc vrei, da-mi tu in PM noile coordonate (un email, eventual), ca altfel nu stiu cum sa dau de tine.
Spor in toate!

[HundertzehnGustav]

so what we dont need is SHO

we need a long hiatus from SHIII because SHIII still undermines more modern subsims.

see my sig.
XD:haha::rock:

don't hold your breath for that to happen.
dude i got SHIII in '06. left the game in 09. started again in late 12, and it still rocks my boat.
that is how BIG SHIII is. Or has become.
*very very very large grin*

[Sonarman]

Not sure if any of you saw this post on the Unity forums (http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/127901-U-boat-simulation) a while back but subsim super modder Hans Witteman (http://www.u-boot-hahd.com/) had a very interesting response to his team's mooted subsim project...

"Hi Hans,

My main question for you is there a business plan and any available funding for this project?

I know the original lead programmer and designer, Bill Becker, of the very first Silent Hunter and he is available (around 25 years of experience and about your age). The lead artist is also a good friend of ours but he's mostly tied up with a 9 to 5 job but certainly available for your reference. I am also an expert in Unity, with 20 years professional game experience (primarily programming) and I'm currently working on an underwater game and I could answer most technical questions you have. We both come from a heavy simulations background, myself having worked on Gunship 2000 and F-15 Strike Eagle III back in the day, and Bill has worked on a ridiculous number of simulation titles as that is his specialty.

I went through most of your site and can tell that you are extremely passionate and serious about this project. If you can let us know more about your background (commercial projects are of greatest interest) and your team members we could probably put together quite a powerful team. We have access to many of the developers from the old MicroProse Software days, including business development. For a AAA game you need serious resources in business, marketing and distribution so we want to make sure you have the whole picture covered and how we might best work together."

Don Goddard


Presumably the artist of which they speak is the legendary Kim Biscoe who worked on Pirates! Gold, Silent Service II, Great Naval Battles 1,2,3 &4, Silent Hunter, Silent Hunter II and on the radar & sonar screens of Destroyer Command as well as many other sims.The word "Kickstarter" springs to mind... time to put our money where our mouth is?

And if not for a subsim project I wish these guys would at least tie up with Ed Fletcher for his (programming almost complete) reboot of TF1942+1942PAW.

[elanaiba]

Nice!

I grew up with Microprose sims as a kid ... F-19 Stealth Fighter anyone? Made general in F-15 Strike Eagle II, played the hell out of F-117 and then I discovered Falcon 3 and the rest is history.

The demise of the western simulation developers was a great blow to this industry and to us players. One can argue that the East Europe developers have brought great advances in simulation, technology ... but to me nothing can touch the immersion, fun and overall experience of the old breed.

Any serious sim from the "old" guys would instantly have my "buy" button clicked.

[Nexus7]

Nice reading Sonarman.

Now find some programmer with such potential :hmmm:

[Sonarman]

@Elanaiba
Yes the old Microprose sims were great. I vividly remember racing home from school in the 80's to play those old favourites, I'd sit down at seven pm and after what seemed like five minutes suddenly realise it was after midnight, the true hallmark of any great game. Even today the likes of Red Storm Rising & Task Force 1942 are quite playable and unequalled in gameplay terms in their respective sub-genres.

Good luck with your current project Dan, can't wait to see what you guys come up with now you are free from the body corporate!

[Sonarman]

Nice reading Sonarman.

Now find some programmer with such potential :hmmm:

Bill Becker was the main programmer for the original Silent Hunter game
Don Goddard worked as a programmer on F15-Strike Eagle III & Gunship 2000
...sounds pretty potential rich to me.

If Ed Fletcher (Task Force 1942/ 1942 Pacific Air War/F117A) or Dan (SH3,4,5)or EAST(Enigma Rising Tide) jumped in too that would also be great though!

[Madox58]

Well. I can look back and see this.
Many took a stand against Ubi over SH5 and the DRM issue mostly.
As a Group it was repeated over and over "I'm not buying".

They called the bluff people!
We now have exactly what most probably feared would happen.
I admit I've posted bad stuff about SH5.
But I did buy a copy. I'm buying another copy as a download cause I don't have my DVD with me and someone needs some help with a Mod.

We can HOPE some outside group does something someday.
But you all know what is said about that.
Hope in one hand and crap in the other.
See what hand gets full first!

Or make an offer that Ubi can't refuse.
(Well they can but it's worth a try!)

[AOTD_MadMax]

I'm not sure I follow you Maddy, our programmers work wasn't really impacted by the volume of 3D work - which is done by other guys?!

On the other hand, our programmers had a lot more work to do to make sure SHV is more moddable than previous games. Not everything turned out ok, esp. with technology change things go to hell, but we had the best intentions to do so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend or portray SH5 as the greatest perfect planned project, it's bollocks. I'm just trying to be factual and share a few points about SH series evolution vs players expectations.

Now of course we have to realize that if SH5 would have been the perfect game / sim and word of mouth of the early adopters / reviews would have been great, even those not buying because of the "only type VII" issue may have been convinced. Add the DRM debacle on top of that, and you have more reasons than not to keep on the fence :(

Hi Dan,

I'm a businessman and I work in a marketing department, and I know exactly how things are going.

There is a budget for a project and if the budget is used up, it will either be published by measures quickly, or it is set.

The decision was made ​​in favor of a publication of SH5.
The result of this decision is an unfinished SH5 as we all know.

Now, where is the cause?

Clearly in the distribution of resources.
I remember exactly how Ubisoft pushed the GWXTeam to quit GWX 4.0 because GWX4.0 already had contents which should come in SH5.

Instead of using the skills of modders so as to keep the budget lean, even modding was suppressed.

Tomi99 had already much better prepared detailed diesel interiors than they are in SH5.
The modders were already so at another stage of evolution and Ubi ran after.
Rather than take advantage of the use of the well-built models of the modder, Ubi built his own far worse models.
The budget shrank and for the things you can not see, there was no more money.
This includes the Ki, nonfunctional Magnetpistol and many other things which do not work in SH5.

Much money was spent for the optics in order for great video clips to attract more customers but the game play was all into the back.

The entire budget for the models you could have saved because they were present almost all in a better shape.
Then SH5 would also have been a success.
Today, outsourcing is in any industry the key for success and the solution for projects with a slim budget.

Regards

Maddy

[elanaiba]

I remember exactly how Ubisoft pushed the GWXTeam to quit GWX 4.0 because GWX4.0 already had contents which should come in SH5.


?!?!?!?!?! When did they do that? How did they do that?!

[SNAKE1937]

I remember when the GW team posted that they would not be fixing SH4.

A sad day, as I loved what they did with SH3 ( still my favorate SH game).

What ever happen to all of that talent?

[Sailor Steve]

What ever happen to all of that talent?
Some of it has moved on to other things. Some of it is still around, but working individually. Some of it is even working with former "opponents" to improve the gaming experience for all of it. There are new and extremely talented teams working on various games, including SH3. I only hope someday they'll apply that same energy to SH4 and SH5. What work is being done on those games is laudable, but not enough. This is not due to lack of talent in the people working on them, but in the lack of people working on them. :sunny:

[HertogJan]

And if not for a subsim project I wish these guys would at least tie up with Ed Fletcher for his (programming almost complete) reboot of TF1942+1942PAW.


Oooh boy,

Those where the day's, I remember having to make a boot disk just to be able to get 1942PAW to run with mouse and joystick.

Man I loved that game and tried to play it over on freegamesempire.
IF they are giving new life to that game I'll most definitely buy it :rock:

[Nexus7]

While those where pioneering days, I don't see why they dont take a REAL NEW BIG challenge?
SHO is in a way pioneering again... but

why dont go for multiplayer :O:
or MMO :O: :O:
maybe with driveable destroyers :O::03:

AH WAIT! - maybe thats a future development of SHO :D

[BigBANGtheory]

We just need to sell Chris Roberts on the concept of Sea Citizen :D he seems to understand what PC games are about.