Windows 8: Microsoft spent three years killing the Start menu ?

[Onkel Neal]

Microsoft spent three years killing the Start menu and introducing a new tablet interface,” you say.

Read more: http://www.itproportal.com/2012/10/24/why-you-should-upgrade-your-pc-to-windows-8/#ixzz2AD4k55oK

So, any realistic, compelling reason for me to abandon Windows XP for Windows 8? :smug:

[HunterICX]

No but I can give you plenty to go for Win 7 :D

Windows 8 is...well as a PC user to avoid like the plague.

HunterICX

[the_tyrant]

hmm, lets see:

Ignoring the live tiles,

XP support is ending soon, aka, you will not get any new security patches

Windows 8 performs great, much much better than windows 7

improved touchpad gesture support

improved touchscreen support (duh)

Better file performance

DPI neutral display support (a first for windows)

Improved WiDi support


As for what is said to be a steep learning curve, it takes literally 5 minutes to learn everything in the new interface. I have used it successfully on everything from a 12 inch laptop to a 42 inch TV.

I love the fact that you can "pin" an application on the left or the right

I can be using word in full screen on the left to type up an essay, while I pin an MSN window to the right.


I mean, the only thing I can say is, head down to your local best buy (or better yet, the Microsoft store), and try it. Even if you buy a windows 8 computer, if you don't like it, you can return it. Plus, all windows 8 pro licenses (sold right now for 69.99), allows you to downgrade back to 7. In essence, you are buying a Windows 8/7 mixed license.


Give it a shot, if you don't like it, you can easily go back

[VipertheSniper]

I really like a lot of things about Win8, like the ribbons in the explorer, or the fact that you can pause filetransfers. But what I could do without, is the touchscreen optimized desktop, formerly known as Metro. Gimme that start button back.

Also the handling of the apps without a touchscreen is horrid. Although I suppose even with a touchscreen they wouldn't fare much better. The IE app for example is a POS.

[the_tyrant]

I really like a lot of things about Win8, like the ribbons in the explorer, or the fact that you can pause filetransfers. But what I could do without, is the touchscreen optimized desktop, formerly known as Metro. Gimme that start button back.

Also the handling of the apps without a touchscreen is horrid. Although I suppose even with a touchscreen they wouldn't fare much better. The IE app for example is a POS.


Hmm, why don't you like IE10? I'm typing this comment on IE10, and to be honest, it is absolutely the best version of IE ever (not usually a high bar, but IE9 was pretty good)

[MH]

Read more: http://www.itproportal.com/2012/10/24/why-you-should-upgrade-your-pc-to-windows-8/#ixzz2AD4k55oK

So, any realistic, compelling reason for me to abandon Windows XP for Windows 8? :smug:

As said before go with the 7.
It is absolutely rock solid version of windows with much better performance.

[Dowly]

I see no reason to switch from 7 to 8. Reading the various performance comparisons,
the differences between the two are very minor.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Unless you plan on using a touchscreen then go for 7, but the_tyrant makes a compelling case for buying the 7 'downgrade'/8 combined - just in case. Still another eight years of W7 support, and it dominates over XP.

But there is a Win 8 exclusive version of SHO - :03:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4597/showin8exclusive.jpg

[MH]

I see no reason to switch from 7 to 8. Reading the various performance comparisons,
the differences between the two are very minor.

There is no reason to switch to WIN8 unless you have touch screen or must have the latest software.
Yet win8 has its purpose as OS for touch or gesture devices which seem to be the future as it seems...actually we shell see how it will turn out.

[VipertheSniper]

Hmm, why don't you like IE10? I'm typing this comment on IE10, and to be honest, it is absolutely the best version of IE ever (not usually a high bar, but IE9 was pretty good)

I'm talking the App-version that you open from the tile screen...

the normal desktop variant is fine.

[longam]

One of the most striking things about the new Microsoft operating system – beyond the Metro user interface – is the lack of a traditional Start menu in favour of tiles. However with a desktop view available for running legacy apps, it seems likely that users will appreciate the ability to use a Windows 8 computer in much the same way as they have used each version of Windows since the mid-1990s.


Of course, this means manually switching from the Metro view – or does it? A useful registry hack can be used to disable Metro, restoring the classic Start menu and desktop view as the default user interface. Sadly this fix will only work with the Windows 8 Developer Preview, rather than with the new Windows 8 Consumer Preview, due to tighter integration of the Metro UI with the various Windows screens. However Microsoft has indicated that there will be a method to disable Metro or set the desktop view as the default for corporate users, so those of you looking ahead shouldn’t be too concerned just yet.


http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/quickly-easily-disable-metro-user-interface-windows-8/

[Skybird]

Metro surface is for tablets. For heaven'S sake, let's leave it to tablets, then. Like console menus rarely are comfortable on PC, they were designed for consoles, and on PCs they mostly are a pain. Using metro on a PC, with mouse and keyboard, is a compromise at best, and I read that Microsoft has deliberately deleted in past weeks any chance to have traditional Starting menu/button modded back into it, or having the traditional OS looks booting first. They want to force it onto you, you must learn to accept Metro, they want it so. The question is: why?

First, their new hardware strategy is meant to get some share from the pie that so far Google, Amazon ebooks, Applestore and such installation enjoy for themselves. They want it,l and the customer has to deliver it to them,. so their philosophy. This comes at a cost often ignored:

Second, I have no doubt that the new licensing system sooner or later will see them tightening the screws, and I think this is one of their major motivations for having designed this new system the way it is now. That means your software, love older games and simulation for example, maybe will not run anymore, for they are not bought via Microsoft's own appstore, and are not licensed. That is a perspective that is really worrying, for it also means that the quality of games is to drop.

What Microsoft does is effectively starting to implement the closed-universe business model by Apple'S appstore.

If you do not want that, you must hope that W8 will become a hurting financial disaster for them, because else they will succeed with their plan.

But there could be a benefit which already is to be seen by the fact that Steam - I still hate it :) - has started to develope foir Linux. They want to avoid getting caught and dried out ion the Microsoft trap. The developer of Minecraft has put down a demand by Microsoft that he should subscribe to get his program licensed for W8. Other studios and developers, I read, also have decided to leave W8 alone and not to follow Microsoft'S wish to get theirt products licensed by MS. They all said they want to develope stronger for Linux, and this could maybe - maybe - after all these many years mean a breakthrough fore Linux not just on servers and universities, but in the private PC sector as well, where it still is , let'S face it, an exception from the rule.

For the sake of future gaming and simulations, I hope that W8 blows up and explodes MS right into the face. Neal, go W7 x64. It's good, really. that tablets and gesture screens need a new OS philosophy, in principle is a non-brainer. But leave it to tablerts then, do niot mess up PC handling - it is tested and proven since 20 years. Why are there no cars with stick-control? Because steering wheels were found to work best.

[Skybird]

Of course, this means manually switching from the Metro view – or does it? A useful registry hack can be used to disable Metro, restoring the classic Start menu and desktop view as the default user interface.

Are you sure? Some time ago it was reported that they have deleted the ability to use that hack, or do I mistake some things there? During public beta, that hack was used, but the latest versions delivered were unable to be hacked that way, I read.

[longam]

Are you sure? Some time ago it was reported that they have deleted the ability to use that hack, or do I mistake some things there? During public beta, that hack was used, but the latest versions delivered were unable to be hacked that way, I read.

Looking at the article it seems that corp version will be able to turn it off, guessing this means the bulk license expensive version.

Another major mistake MS?

[SeaWolf U-57]

I have just installed Windows 8 Pro running in 64bit configuration and I must say it is pretty damn good the time taken to install the software is fast but the best it yet to come.
The boot up time is next to instantaneous as I hardly see the windows 8 logo (which is good because its crap)
then it takes on the look of my mobile phone which is running the android operating system.
At first I didn't like this look but I must admit it grows on you as did the next screen that again look like the apps screen on my mobile phone.
But as you use this operating system you find more exciting things you can play around with and change to suit the way you want the operating system to look or run.
You can choose to use the desktop and place items on the taskbar as with the older versions and I am still using the same programs that I use on my Windows 7 Machine so compatibility seems not to be a problem.
Ok you say but what about drivers do they all work with Windows 8 well no is the simple answer there are updated drivers for Window 8 out there for sure and as I used the upgrade assistant to download Window 8 it told me what needed to be done and also where to find the drivers needed.

Ok I am running a i5 processor with 8Gb of ram and with Windows 8 running the system is super fast.
Also the graphics are truly improved and crystal clear and I can say its well worth the effort of buying and installing it I also used the beta copy of Windows 8 but the full version is totally different I will be using the operating system from now on ok before the will it questions start I have not installed any version of Silent Hunter to Try. So I cant yet say if all will work with it or not but I cant see why not. :salute:

[SeaWolf U-57]

Are you sure? Some time ago it was reported that they have deleted the ability to use that hack, or do I mistake some things there? During public beta, that hack was used, but the latest versions delivered were unable to be hacked that way, I read.

All you have to do is select on button on the start menu to go to and use the old desktop view :hmmm:

[Skybird]

I was referring to reports over this year like this:

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-working-to-kill-windows-8-start-button-hacks

or this

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/31/windows-8-start-button-2/

or this

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/08/samsung-start-menu-app-shows-why-microsoft-is-going-its-own-way-with-surface/

that kept to come in since early summer and until August or Septemeber this year.

The last released W8 public Beta I have read indeed lacked the ability to use these hacks.

If MS put back in these functions, than probably because they realised the wind blowing into their face. It also remains to be seen whether it stays this way, or again gets deleted in some subsequent SP. But the basic logic of theirs remains the same of course. If Metro-OS should become successful and with it the new app-licensing scheme being established, they must achieve that developers develope for Metro, not old Windows.

In the other thread on game compatability I have explained why I think that from gamer's perspective a success of W8 will hurt gaming, especially niche games, simulations, and modding in general. That's why I think it is in our best interest to help keeping sales numbers low and hope that it becomes a disastrous fail for MS. It must really hurt them, else they will not give up the idea to turn the PC from a free game-platform into an appstore-universe where MS always holds you at a line and makes money from that.

[the_tyrant]

I was referring to reports over this year like this:

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-working-to-kill-windows-8-start-button-hacks

or this

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/31/windows-8-start-button-2/

or this

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/08/samsung-start-menu-app-shows-why-microsoft-is-going-its-own-way-with-surface/

that kept to come in since early summer and until August or Septemeber this year.

The last released W8 public Beta I have read indeed lacked the ability to use these hacks.

If MS put back in these functions, than probably because they realised the wind blowing into their face. It also remains to be seen whether it stays this way, or again gets deleted in some subsequent SP. But the basic logic of theirs remains the same of course. If Metro-OS should become successful and with it the new app-licensing scheme being established, they must achieve that developers develope for Metro, not old Windows.

In the other thread on game compatability I have explained why I think that from gamer's perspective a success of W8 will hurt gaming, especially niche games, simulations, and modding in general. That's why I think it is in our best interest to help keeping sales numbers low and hope that it becomes a disastrous fail for MS. It must really hurt them, else they will not give up the idea to turn the PC from a free game-platform into an appstore-universe where MS always holds you at a line and makes money from that.


Here is the thing with the start menu: In the developer and consumer preview versions, you can hack back the start menu with one click, since the code for the start menu was never really removed. Windows 8 is built upon windows 7, and in the betas, the code was simply left in there.

However, in the official version, microsoft removed all the useless stuff, and thus, the start menu code was removed (along with a lot more stuff that is never used again).

However, microsoft does not "block" start menus. Many OEMs like Samsung created their own start menu, and bundled it with their new windows 8 PCs.

I doubt that microsoft would give up on the app store, more importantly, I doubt that application developers would give up on the app store. Historically, application developers have always embraced the app store model, and the app store itself is already welcomed by many developers, since it provides many practical advantages.

Also, I find that on windows 8 (not RT), it isn't hard to side load metro applications, it is a hell of a lot easier than symbian homebrew was.

[HunterICX]

However, in the official version, microsoft removed all the useless stuff, and thus, the start menu code was removed (along with a lot more stuff that is never used again).

So start menu was useless? really...it's clearly that Microsoft lost the plot right there. I find myself using it a fair bit.

However, microsoft does not "block" start menus. Many OEMs like Samsung created their own start menu, and bundled it with their new windows 8 PCs.Ow yeah that's what we're waiting for :roll:
A Frankenstein's creation of a start menu preloaded with tons of crap by said brand.

I doubt that microsoft would give up on the app store, more importantly, I doubt that application developers would give up on the app store. Historically, application developers have always embraced the app store model, and the app store itself is already welcomed by many developers, since it provides many practical advantages.Yes all fine and well for the tablet/smartphone crowd that are bored out of their skulls and just fill their gimmick full of junk.

Also, I find that on windows 8 (not RT), it isn't hard to side load metro applications, it is a hell of a lot easier than symbian homebrew was.That junk belongs on Tablets and smartphones not on PC's

and that's the whole problem I have with Win8 it should've been called something different and promoted as purely made for Smart phones, touch screen notebooks & tablets and have the PC Windows branch beeing well left alone to be improved on for PC users. Thus I hope it bombs as hard as Vista and hopefully then Microsoft get their act back together and give us PC users something proper to work it like Win 7

HunterICX

[Herr-Berbunch]

^ That :Kaleun_Applaud:

[SeaWolf U-57]

So start menu was useless? really...it's clearly that Microsoft lost the plot right there. I find myself using it a fair bit.

Ow yeah that's what we're waiting for :roll:
A Frankenstein's creation of a start menu preloaded with tons of crap by said brand.

Yes all fine and well for the tablet/smartphone crowd that are bored out of their skulls and just fill their gimmick full of junk.

That junk belongs on Tablets and smartphones not on PC's

and that's the whole problem I have with Win8 it should've been called something different and promoted as purely made for Smart phones, touch screen notebooks & tablets and have the PC Windows branch beeing well left alone to be improved on for PC users. Thus I hope it bombs as hard as Vista and hopefully then Microsoft get their act back together and give us PC users something proper to work it like Win 7

HunterICX
Ok after all said and done the truth is if you ignore all the flashy looking items and just select the desk top option as soon as the system boots up the it looks, acts and runs like a fast version of Window 7


Ok I'm sorry but I cant understand what all the fuss about the start menu is. After all what function is shown on the start menu that is not in use on ether the start screen or moving the curser to ether the top or bottom or the right hand side of the screen. Its all right there for instance the programs you install are shown on the START SCREEN and any program you want access to on the DESK TOP screen you just right click it and "pin" it to the task bar. although saying that most programs you install place a icon on the DESK TOP anyway. So its only things like media player or Firefox that I move there and the items like control panel, power on/off and also change pc settings handles the things like Windows update, system performance and devices are all found in the right side panel.
So really Widows 8 has all the same features as the old systems just placed differently and to be honest the more I use Windows 8 the more I like it. And not forgetting how fast this operating System works it has to be twice as fast as Windows 7 and that's saying a lot and the programs run super smooth.
Oh and yes it Runs Silent Hunter III (star force free copy I have) and also Silent Hunter V with no problems.

[HunterICX]

And not forgetting how fast this operating System works it has to be twice as fast as Windows 7 and that's saying a lot and the programs run super smooth.
Oh and yes it Runs Silent Hunter III (star force free copy I have) and also Silent Hunter V with no problems.

On it's own Win 8 may be faster then 7 like boot time and dealing with it's own visual in media files.
but when you benchmark it with programs like 3Dmark and games then there's no gain to be found between Win 7 and Win 8.

The Fuzz is that you're forced with the new UI and the clear signs that windows 8 is designed for the Tablet and Smart phone which imo should be kept seperated from the PC market.

HunterICX

[Skybird]

Booting times and such cosmetics I do not even consider. It is too marginal. Who cares hwether the system take 30 seocnds or 50 seconds to boot? Should I swithc of my firewall and antivir becasue the add another 20 seconds or so?

Is that even interesting?

What do you do at the end of the day with those precious seconds you have saved? Brush your teeth twenty seconds longer before going to bed? Collecting it all, and when you have collected 5 minutes after two weeks or so, use those 5 minutes to do - what...?

;)

[Skybird]

the clear signs that windows 8 is designed for the Tablet and Smart phone which imo should be kept seperated from the PC market.

Right that, precisely. It wants to be both - and that is were the basic flaw is. A design that may work good with fingertips, messes up ergonomics where you use mouse and keyboard.

And btw: ever tried to enter precise details into a picture and to detailed precise picture manipulation via photoshop - on a touchscreen, by fingertips? Ever typed long texts on a touchscreen virtual keyboard? ;)

[SeaWolf U-57]

Booting times and such cosmetics I do not even consider. It is too marginal. Who cares hwether the system take 30 seocnds or 50 seconds to boot? Should I swithc of my firewall and antivir becasue the add another 20 seconds or so?

Is that even interesting?

What do you do at the end of the day with those precious seconds you have saved? Brush your teeth twenty seconds longer before going to bed? Collecting it all, and when you have collected 5 minutes after two weeks or so, use those 5 minutes to do - what...?

;)

That was just an example Sh3 Fully modded with LSH3 takes just over 2mins to start the game which is dam fast by any standards just to show how well the operating system is running if all you want to do is look for negatives that thats all you will find I take it by the way you know so much about the new version that you are using it or maybe you are just blowing hot air from other sorces

[SeaWolf U-57]

On it's own Win 8 may be faster then 7 like boot time and dealing with it's own visual in media files.
but when you benchmark it with programs like 3Dmark and games then there's no gain to be found between Win 7 and Win 8.

The Fuzz is that you're forced with the new UI and the clear signs that windows 8 is designed for the Tablet and Smart phone which imo should be kept seperated from the PC market.

HunterICX

Not only boot time but also loading and running programs and games there is a diffrence try to get over the look of windows 8 you see plastered all over the place you dont have to use any of it and the new UI will once use to it its no problem to use once you go passed all the crap parts the system will run much the same as any other

[HunterICX]

Not only boot time but also loading and running programs and games there is a diffrence

loading perhaps but running?
What difference

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Microsoft/Windows_8_Graphics_Performance/images/3dmark11_1680_1050.gif

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Microsoft/Windows_8_Graphics_Performance/images/crysis2_1680_1050.gif

http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Microsoft/Windows_8_Graphics_Performance/images/sniperelitev2_1680_1050.gif

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

Ok I don't know where you got these figures you are showing but these ones are from my new patrol using silent hunter III with LSH3 v4 running and also all of my mods including the Gunsub one.
the heaviest usage is said to be leaving a crowded port with reports of 8fps I had 16fps max using Windows 7 which was good but the game would shudder sometimes and also the spray from the front of the sub would also skip every now and then. well I just started a new patrol within Window 8 using the same settings and well lets see.
leaving dock 41fps sailing through the harbour 42fps no stutter no spray skip the game seem to run faster and smoother and looking at the fps that is possible is it not.
sailing through the outer post of the harbour still in heavy shipping 62fps
and last of all passing the carrier and escort 182fps so I hope this helps these are fps running on my computer not read out of some anti Windows 8 site please keep an open mind but if you still wish to be Anti Windows 8 then hope it works for you

[HunterICX]

That you're having a nice performance in SHIII now is nice, I'm glad for you.
but did you ever tried different drivers for the video card? ever had a format and started of fresh and ran the same mod soup and came up with the same porky FPS?

Because my experiences with games no matter the OS XP or Win 7 varies as well that sometimes after a format for some reason my game that ran crap or poor suddently ran like roadrunner (no hardware changes just a fresh installation and up to date drivers)

not read out of some anti Windows 8 site please keep an open mind but if you still wish to be Anti Windows 8 then hope it works for you

I read tech blogs that benchmark and stress test components and software what's so anti Win8 about those?

and out of all them (zdnet, tomshardware, techspot, techpowerup and more ) they say the same thing there's no difference to be found in Win 7 and Win 8 regarding the performance in games.

to pull more graphs from the other sources:
http://media.bestofmicro.com/7/E/357962/original/MaxPayne3.png

http://media.bestofmicro.com/7/D/357961/original/MaxPayne3%20FOT.png

http://media.bestofmicro.com/7/A/357958/original/Crysis2.png

http://media.bestofmicro.com/7/9/357957/original/Crysis2%20FOT.png

Techspot:
http://static.techspot.com/articles-info/561/bench/Gaming_03.png

http://static.techspot.com/articles-info/561/bench/Gaming_01.png

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

ok so when did they test windows 8 as window 8 was only released on Thursday last week as I have already said the beta version I used cant hold a candle to the full version and also was the rigs they tested it on just bench rigs or full systems and did they optimize the performance of windows 8 to there test rig spec's also was the same rig used to test both version and did they do a totally clean install before each test to remove any crap left. also what chipset was the Motherboards using Z68 or H61 or even a Z77 version because anything older than these you might as well go and make some toast.
also what type and speed of ram was used and to answer your questions yes on both times it was a clean install and on the same machine.
Im telling you whats right in front of me not tested by someone else but I see you just dont want to believe me so enough said

[Sailor Steve]

I know you're excited, but please pause for a breath once in awhile. In other words, use some punctuation.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Sites that benchmark always use a cleanly installed rig, the result wouldn't be worth anything if they didn't.

I don't see what the amount if ram was makes a difference as long as it was the same for both tests.

Finally, from me at the moment, If they can't benchmark a new release within 24 hours of release then that would be a poor do.

[SeaWolf U-57]

Sites that benchmark always use a cleanly installed rig, the result wouldn't be worth anything if they didn't.

AH yes you know this for sure do you


I don't see what the amount if ram was makes a difference as long as it was the same for both tests.

it don't eh


Finally, from me at the moment, If they can't benchmark a new release within 24 hours of release then that would be a poor do.

Ah but did they or was it the beta version

[Arclight]

Right let's back up a wee bit; this for me is the key point why Win8 is not interesting:Ok after all said and done the truth is if you ignore all the flashy looking items and just select the desk top option as soon as the system boots up the it looks, acts and runs like a fast version of Window 7.It was never really going to be faster. It is the same thing with a few tweaks, which according to tests by the people who know how to do these tests do not net any real-world improvement.

Then what's the point of getting windows 8?

If it is Windows 7 with a new flashy GUI and you turn off the new GUI, what is the point of it?


Every time someone mentions the GUI as a negative, the defenders point out you can turn it off. What they fail to realise is that they just said Windows 8 has no point, no place on a desktop where Windows 7 exists.

[the_tyrant]

Windows 8 is the next vista, there is no doubting that.
Even Microsoft themselves understand that.

Now what is the defining trait of vista? Little to no enterprise adoption.

Sure, there are a vocal group that hates it(I never really hated it), but statistically, a tiny number of people actually downgraded their pcs that came with vista back to xp. (enterprises bought volume licenses, and are not counted.)

Now on this front, 8 is at best a vista. My school is just about to roll out 7, just like many other large organizations. No way are we moving to 8, we will probably just move to 9.

Fundamentally, windows 8 has many big advantages over 7. The oems have been screaming for a long time that 7 is no longer competitive against os x mountain lion. Windows 8 strikes back against mountain lion in every way imaginable. OS x has the dashboard, a collection of "light", iPad like apps, windows 8 has metro. Windows 8 has touchpad gesture support that is just as good as OS X if not better.

I think there is a learning curve, it will take maybe a day or two to get used to. But it has made my workflow much, much faster.

In fact, I would actually argue, that windows 8 represents the trend for the future. Every single desktop environment is moving towards the same direction. KDE, OS X, Gnome, Unity, etc.

The big thing about windows 8 is "glanceability", aka imagine this usage scenario:

I'm working on a spread sheet in Excel. And suddenly I get a facebook message.

On windows 8, I would be notified by a notification, and in one glance, I would get a good idea of the message, who its from and the subject. allowing me to make a quick decision within seconds, not even needing to lift fingers off the keyboard.

On windows 7, I would have to periodically login to facebook to check my messages. breaking my workflow, and requiring multiple clicks and possibly a login.

Or, consider that in windows 8, with one hit of the windows button, I would get a quick view of my email, latest news, latest weather, stock quotes, facebook updates, etc. and with another hit of the windows button, I would be back doing exactly what I was doing.

In order to do the same thing on windows 7, it would take me 5 minutes, visiting a dozen sites, and opening a dozen programs, completely breaking my concentration.


The concept of glanceability is one that all modern UIs are working towards. KDE had a pretty good implementation with its widget system, but I have to admit, it is much cruder than the windows implementation.

PS: windows store also sells desktop apps. Plus, it takes a much lower cut than traditional brick and mortar stores, and if your app is a big seller, Microsoft takes a 20% cut instead of 30% that apple takes.

[the_tyrant]

Right let's back up a wee bit; this for me is the key point why Win8 is not interesting:It was never really going to be faster. It is the same thing with a few tweaks, which according to tests by the people who know how to do these tests do not net any real-world improvement.

Then what's the point of getting windows 8?

If it is Windows 7 with a new flashy GUI and you turn off the new GUI, what is the point of it?


Every time someone mentions the GUI as a negative, the defenders point out you can turn it off. What they fail to realise is that they just said Windows 8 has no point, no place on a desktop where Windows 7 exists.

There is actually quite a bit of an improvement with windows 8 for the desktop side.

For example, file system operations have become a LOT better. File transfers are pauseable now. Windows 8 also manages multiple file transfers at once better.

Hyper V is also available for free for windows 8 pro.

Drive extender allows much easier management of volumes spread between multiple hard drives. I personally use this a lot to organize my, um, adult video collection.

The task scheduler is supposed to actually unleash the performance of AMD's FX series now (or so I heard), I don't have one, so I really can't comment on it.

Native multitouch trackpad support, and native NFC.

Finally, the UI thread is optimized to give you less studdering, freezes and lag that you see in older versions of windows.

[HunterICX]

Windows 8 is the next vista, there is no doubting that.
Even Microsoft themselves understand that.

Good so we'll wait for Win 9

Now what is the defining trait of vista? Little to no enterprise adoption.

No it sucked.

The big thing about windows 8 is "glanceability", aka imagine this usage scenario:

I'm working on a spread sheet in Excel. And suddenly I get a facebook message.


On windows 7, I would have to periodically login to facebook to check my messages. breaking my workflow, and requiring multiple clicks and possibly a login.

In order to do the same thing on windows 7, it would take me 5 minutes, visiting a dozen sites, and opening a dozen programs, completely breaking my concentration.

Sorry but you lost me there completly.

First Win 7 doesn't break your workflow nor Concentration because it doesn't notify you when you get a new message it's you who is breaking your workflow and concentration by loggin into facebook.

You're the one distracting yourself by doing other things instead of concentrating on your work not the other way around.

Also Win 8 would then most likely to distract you as it let's you know when someones writing to you or posting something on FB or other social medias by notifications which you'll probally want to respond to thus breaking your workflow and concentration.

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

Right let's back up a wee bit; this for me is the key point why Win8 is not interesting:It was never really going to be faster. It is the same thing with a few tweaks, which according to tests by the people who know how to do these tests do not net any real-world improvement.

Then what's the point of getting windows 8?

If it is Windows 7 with a new flashy GUI and you turn off the new GUI, what is the point of it?


Every time someone mentions the GUI as a negative, the defenders point out you can turn it off. What they fail to realise is that they just said Windows 8 has no point, no place on a desktop where Windows 7 exists.

Excuse me But have I not said that on my rig its IS faster. You have shown my quote then say its not true it is really like talking to a broken record isn't it I have used both versions and for me Windows 8 is better and faster. But hey you can carry on burying your heads in the rubbish you read and quote

[Skybird]

Tyrant,

one really has to differ between the platform type. On touchscreens and tablets and actually even smartphones, Metro actually might be functioning good. That is what this gesture stuff is being developed for, right?

But for the normal home PC, using a normal screen and mouse and keyboard, it is completely pointless, even more, it works ergonomically significantly worse than the pre-W8 design.

There might be internal security features that make W8 taking the lead over W7, I read about some memory safety features, I admit that was a bit too much techy as if I really understood that stuff in depth. But the features you listed as advantages, for me - and I assume for many others as well - are simply uninteresting. I do not care whether I can pause file transfers, or can have two such processes at the same time. That is nice to gain some points in an academical test, but the relevance for the ordinary PC handling of the ordinary home user - not to mention gamer - is close to zero.

Microsoft does not agree that it is customer-orientation when you design and sell products that customers want, but thinks it must force the customer to buy what MS thinks it SHOULD want. That is at the heart of the problem, and Microsoft wants it this way because as I explained earlier it wants to piush customers into stricter dependency from its now rising own appstore, like Apple does with its own customers since years, and Amazon does with its tablet, and Google.

Establishing the Microsoft appstore and training customers to accept being dependent of that like Apple users are only able to buy via appstore - this is the primary and imo even only real intention and mission objective of W8, that is why they ignored criticism of Metro during the Beta phase, and it explains why the Start button has gone, and the start menu, and why Microsoft tries hard to get people away from wanting the traditional, non-app-based Windows design, and go for Metro even on hardware where using metro makes no sense. Ergonomically and technically it makes no sense to install Metro on a non-touch-screen system. But Commercially, and financially, and long-term-strategically, it makes all sense you could desire! - IMO this is all one needs to know about W8. And since a PC software market no longer free for developers and modders and 2nd hand buyers ( mind you, all this campaigning against software pirates and for security is mostly done to dry out the second hand market) might be commercially lucrative for Microsoft, but is at the cost of customer interests, I hope that W8 fails miserably. Microsoft must suffer financially and so dearly that the pain makes it rethinking the plan and split the OS developement again - one in the Metro format for tablets, smartphones and touchscreen, one in the traditional Windows format.


Actually form the little I saw, for tablets Metro might be pretty good. But I do not want a tablet. And I totally hate appstore philosophies and the resulting dependency and the power that just one company has on future software design. The Game market already has suffered from consoles. Tailoring it even more towards a handful of standard schemes, will do even more damage, and things like niche games and simulations you can probably forget completely sooner or later.

[SeaWolf U-57]

Microsoft rethinking the plan and split the OS developement again - one in the Metro format for tablets, smartphones and touchscreen, one in the traditional Windows format.


That would be a good idea if windows 8 had been done this way it would not be causing the comments it is.
But saying that even for a old git like myself the way the apps work has a lot of avantages too if you move them to the desk top they change the way they work. even internet explorer 10 from the desktop is worth using.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9123/newpicturebo.png

[Skybird]

Personally, i have zero use for that. I do not even miss to not have a smartphone. Simply completely unneeded. If I would get one as a present or prize, I would sell it. Same for tablets.

The only gadget I would consider to buy is a big-sized e-reader with good display that allows to read Din-A4 PDFs with small letters and maybe two column print without needing to zoom around. That would be worth to me maybe 150 Euros, if the display is close to Din-A4 size. If the tings has some years of lifespan, at least.

E-books I would not buy for it.

[Arclight]

Excuse me But have I not said that on my rig its IS faster. You have shown my quote then say its not true it is really like talking to a broken record isn't it I have used both versions and for me Windows 8 is better and faster. But hey you can carry on burying your heads in the rubbish you read and quote
Eh? It's my first response, hardly a broken record.

That it runs faster for you doesn't tell me anything. When I reinstall Windows everything runs a lot faster as well, untill a few months down the line. You can't really compare a Win7 install that you used for months to a fresh Win8 one.

As for the rubbish, I think that's a bit of a slight against the experts that go through the trouble of setting up test-beds, doing the legwork and writing several-page articles on the matter. These guys have forgotten more than you and me know combined.


At any rate, Tyrant makes a good point about the file transfer and task manager: much better. But beyond that there really isn't much; yes, virtualization is leaps ahead but hardly anyone uses that outside professional applications. Native trackpad is nice but again hardly anyone uses one of those on a desktop. With multi-core optimizations we're talking 2-10% at most, and only for applications that are actually heavily threaded (video&audio editing, archivers).

I understand Win8 Phone on a smartphone, I get RT on a tablet, Win8 makes sense on a laptop with a build-in touchscreen and multi-touch trackpad, but on a desktop?

That's my point; why do we need to drag all that over to desktops? For example, what's the point of an "app" if you have proper applications and a browser?

[SeaWolf U-57]

I had two new build machines that are virgins i.e no previous install installed 7 on one and 8 on the other tested them formatted the hard drives swapped them and then tested again hardly rigs that have run for months.
the window 8 one i am using myself now

[Skybird]

what's the point of an "app" if you have proper applications and a browser?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[SeaWolf U-57]

the picture above is IE10 running on the desktop not an app

[HunterICX]

But hey you can carry on burying your heads in the rubbish you read and quote

Rubbish eh...

I just ran Silent Hunter III + LSH v5 with the extra mods enabled
Load time 1 min +- 30 seconds
FPS in harbour with lots of shipping a solid 60 - 80 FPS
FPS open ocean 250 FPS

My Rig:
i5-2500K
8Gb ram
GTX560Ti 1 GB
Asus P8H77-V
Win 7 Ultimate 64bit

High Res mod enabled
AA 8x CSAA
AF 16x

So again Win 7 - Win 8 gaming performance
it ain't faster then 7.

whatever bothered your previous SH3 performance...is not due Win 7.

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

You really are being silly now aren't how can you possibly compare what you are running to what I am running when I said other mod then how do you know what other mods you would need to have the totally same set up as mine would you not. I even have a high resolution skin on my sub that eats fps.
I ran the two test with completely the same setup yours and mine cannot be as I have written most of the mods I am running and its all in High resolution. :nope:

Edit .. also I am not running the lighter version LSH3.5 I am running an earlier version which by the way I have also modded

Edit 2 also the chipsets of our machines are not the same you have a more graphics friendly machine

Edit3 ... Oh wow you have a full ATX form factor machine sorry did I not mention I am using a M-ATX well its one I just built you know keep the price down times are hard for some and this one they had to back out on so I am using it.

So really wasn't that a.. Rubbish comparison ??

[Herr-Berbunch]

And that's not how the benchmarking people do it.

I still want to know what the amount of ram used by the benchmarking people has to do with it. At a guess, I'd say it would be 8 or 16 Gig - but that would be 8 or 16 Gig for win 7 and 8. The same amount. For both OSs.

I've just checked a couple of the sites, one did use 16 Gig, the other - 8.

[SeaWolf U-57]

ok well as you may already know 32bit machines always look to use up to 4Gbs spread out to certain areas of usage of ram unless told different.
Were as a 64bit machine will spread out the usage of ram up to a certain point.
So it maybe possible that windows 8 may or may not when optimizing the system usage assign more ram to certain areas of usage but as you say they were using more than 4Gbs then this should not come into it.
unless of coarse they didn't optimize the system to run ether 7 or 8 then the results would be dam near the same and totally useless.

[Onkel Neal]

All you have to do is select on button on the start menu to go to and use the old desktop view :hmmm:

I hope you're right, (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/10/26/where-do-click-again-windows-8-guide-for-perplexed/) because I like my PC to feature a nice, crisp image without shortcuts. I use the Start button, I like it clean.

This, is seriously ugly. Looks like a throwback to Win3.1
http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/Microsoft%20Windows%20final%20start%20screen.jpg

[SeaWolf U-57]

Hi Neal ok then turn on your computer click the fancy lock screen which takes you to the password screen then up comes this screen.


http://imageshack.us/a/img84/6550/newpicture1zu.png

Simply click the active desktop button will take you to this ..

http://imageshack.us/a/img840/2215/newpicture2ey.png

And that is the screen I use you can toggle if you want to but I don't :up:

Reading that report they say it is hard starting a program from the desktop ?? how hard is it to click a icon

[HunterICX]

I hope you're right, (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/10/26/where-do-click-again-windows-8-guide-for-perplexed/) because I like my PC to feature a nice, crisp image without shortcuts. I use the Start button, I like it clean.

If you're a PC user that likes a clean desktop and a start button that isn't made out of Win 3.1 tiles there's Win7 for you.
http://www.techlivez.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/windows-7-start-menu.jpg

because under the hood they're the same, Win 8 just has a GUI optimization for Touchscreen notebooks, Tablets and Smartphones and has ofcouse their needed features.

HunterICX

[CCIP]

As far as performance in games...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,3331.html

The verdict is that there is no noticeable performance difference whatsoever between Win 7 and Win 8.

Which to me reads: right now if you're looking to improve your gaming rig, you'd be wasting your time by switching to Win 8 just for that.

[antikristuseke]

Oh gods Win 3.1 is back...

[Onkel Neal]

Hi Neal ok then turn on your computer click the fancy lock screen which takes you to the password screen then up comes this screen.



Simply click the active desktop button will take you to this ..



And that is the screen I use you can toggle if you want to but I don't :up:

Reading that report they say it is hard starting a program from the desktop ?? how hard is it to click a icon

Cool, SW, thanks. So, a user can set Win8 to show the desktop like that with one time change, or do I have to do this each time I use the PC?

Guess I need to go down to good ol' Best Buy and gets some hands on.

[SeaWolf U-57]

Ah yes that start menu that's written in stone well no Windows 8 is how you want it ..

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1360/newpicture3m.png

so do I need the icons on the desk top well no but I like them there

Edit sorry Neal didn't see you question ... well yes you do but as you see you can do things a little different if you want

Edit .. I left the power option in large version by mistake

Edit .... also you can access the start menu at any time by moving the Cursor down to the bottom left hand side of the Screen to toggle between them

Wow yes before anyone says it you can also place the view folders icon here as well

Just thinking I wonder if old Tom or Don who did the bench mark testing remembered to disable the default active apps on the start screen before running the test or else I see a unfair advantage looming its head.

[sidslotm]

Here's me trying to get Windows98 working again so I can run some old apps. I used to be uncertain, now I'm no longer sure.

I never even got the hang of life, never mind Windows 8 or 98 . Tomorrow starts a new, I will do my best to get through that first before anything else. :rotfl2:

[SeaWolf U-57]

After all said and done it will boil down to this. if you want to try something new and different from what you are use to then try Windows 8 with the apps.
but if you have a android smart phone and the newness of it has worn off then you will like Widows 8 something like what I am using no apps and back to the desktop.
This operating System allows you to swap back and forth if you wish or even return to Windows 7 although my opinion is to be true that most people will not even notice any difference between the two so returning to Windows 7 would be a waste of time.
And others will say the whole thing is a waist of space but haven't we heard this all before you know Vista, 7 and now 8. XP was also my favourite of all of them but I had to move with the new releases to try and help other people with there computer problems and now I supply systems to them.
So complaining about something you are not even going to use well what's the point but using something new and learning about it and passing that knowledge on well. :salute:

And I cant wait to see just what is produced to add to this version

[SeaWolf U-57]

Rubbish eh...

I just ran Silent Hunter III + LSH v5 with the extra mods enabled
Load time 1 min +- 30 seconds
FPS in harbour with lots of shipping a solid 60 - 80 FPS
FPS open ocean 250 FPS

My Rig:
i5-2500K
8Gb ram
GTX560Ti 1 GB
Asus P8H77-V
Win 7 Ultimate 64bit

High Res mod enabled
AA 8x CSAA
AF 16x

So again Win 7 - Win 8 gaming performance
it ain't faster then 7.

whatever bothered your previous SH3 performance...is not due Win 7.

HunterICX

Those are dam good speeds by any standard with the set-up running that's not all that surprising although saying that the start of game loading time should not have been a full 30secs different.
Unless one rigs is using a standard harddrive to run the game from (mine) and the other a 6Gbs direct SSD drive.
lets replace my Drive with a 6Gbs SSD drive and install the game Ok note these times here are from the point where you press start mission First test Standard/Stock SH III .... 17seconds.
Ok now with SH III + LSH3 5.1 also running ..... 1min 20 seconds.
So there you are a SSD drive is quite a bit faster loading and starting SH3.

[HunterICX]

You'll be suprised.

Western Digital 1TB Caviar Green Hard Drive.

Model: WD10EZRX-00A8LB0

64MB Cache. SATA

the greens from WD are the Cool, quiet, eco-friendly ones.

on Stock SH3 launches within 20 Seconds from Career menu into the Game.

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

Wow 64Mb Cache that's great I'm Green with envy.
with that chipset board and items you have any chance you want to swap :hmmm:

[HunterICX]

Wow 64Mb Cache that's great I'm Green with envy.
with that chipset board and items you have any chance you want to swap :hmmm:

:O:

I think not it's still too precious to me as I just have it a couple of months.
but yeah it's pretty fancy setup total damage was 1100 Euros. (those components, case, PSU and custom cooler for CPU)

HunterICX

[SeaWolf U-57]

I dont blame you ... Now how long till Santa comes calling :haha:

[CaptainHaplo]

Hunter - what kind of results do you get from a windows performance index? I am curious - mind sharing them?

[HunterICX]

Processor: 7.5
Memory (RAM): 7.6
Graphics: 7.8
Gaming Graphics: 7.8
Primary Hard Disk: 5.9

HunterICX

[Herr-Berbunch]

Processor: 7.5
Memory (RAM): 7.6
Graphics: 7.8
Gaming Graphics: 7.8
Primary Hard Disk: 5.9


Like most systems, the thing holding it back is the hard drive, either an SSD or a 10k rpm HD required. :yeah:

[HunterICX]

Like most systems, the thing holding it back is the hard drive, either an SSD or a 10k rpm HD required. :yeah:

220 - 250 Euros for a 10k RPM I think I'll pass :O:
and SSD's of 60 GB or 80gb that fall under a decent price range on which I can just store a few games.

All just for faster loading times....no thanks.

HunterICX

[CaptainHaplo]

Sweet numbers - your in my area with those. Actually you have me on graphics by a tenth. NICE!

[thewarrior008]

Oh well , that's Microsoft. Fortunately, there are ways to get back the Start Menu. There's a nice review I stumbled upon a few days back.

http://darktips.com/start-menu-in-windows-8/

[antikristuseke]

Some major issues with Win 8 that have yet to be mentioned here and which if left unchanged should drive every gamer away from this particular OS.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33268524&postcount=16

[the_tyrant]

Some major issues with Win 8 that have yet to be mentioned here and which if left unchanged should drive every gamer away from this particular OS.
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33268524&postcount=16

I have to say it is incorrect at multiple points.

First of all, regarding mature games, it is only limited in the EU, and even with that, only pornographic games (Microsoft fine tuned its criteria, to limit ONLY pornographic titles).

I don't really see where the uproar is from, in all its previous stores(Windows Phone, Xbox Live, Zune, Games For Windows Live), Microsoft never allowed pornographic material.


In fact, it is fully understandable that Microsoft would want to certify the content in the windows store. There has to be a level of quality control, and security checks. I have published in the Windows Phone store, it is pretty easy to go through, and they are pretty transparent.

The policies are clear:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh184843(v=VS.92).aspx

and Microsoft provides pretty good tools to help you:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh394032(v=vs.92)

And if this is not your thing, you can easily enable homebrew on your Windows 8 device. Sure, its a bit more than just downloading an exe and running it, but it is not nearly as convoluted as Symbian homebrew.

As for open source, Microsoft's policy is EXTREMELY clear. They DO allow open source stuff (hell, I might finally finish up my encryption system and release it).


I understand why Valve and its fans are angry. Its simple, Windows Store is assaulting the Steam business model. Usually, physical stores take 50% of the sale, Valve takes 30-40%, Microsoft starts by taking 30%, if your app does well, it is reduced to 20%. Plus, Microsoft finally rolled xbox live and windows live together, so you will get a single system on 3 platforms (Windows, Xbox, Windows Phone).

Microsoft reduces their take from 30% to 20% if you make more revenue than $25000. This is a major thing with game developers. For an industry used to being gouged 50% by Gamestop, Microsoft seems a LOT better. Since after all, at 40-60$ a copy, it is extremely easy for a game developer to make $25000. After that, Microsoft takes the lowest cut in the industry.

Sony's current crossbuy model is pretty good, buy once, play on 2 platforms, with saves synced between both. Microsoft is currently looking into it, really stupid if they don't do it if you ask me.

I would say that Valve is worried, and they should, since so far, most developers I have talked to do enjoy the Windows Store process. I attribute it to Microsoft's developer focus.

Remember Ballmer's "developers" chant. In the Microsoft world, the first class customers are the developers. I have spoken to many developers, and not a single one was afraid of Microsoft treating them unfairly. (or at least not any more than Apple, Google, Sony, Nokia, etc)

So yeah, I game on windows 8, and I develop on windows 8. I believe that the OS has lots of potential for gaming, and I will assure you, the development community WILL support it.

[antikristuseke]

My main problem is with it becoming a closed off system as opposed to an open system that it has been so far, not that it isn't open source. I have the same issue with Apple, among others.
Another thins is the massive inconvenience between hopping from metro apps to desktop ones and so on.
On censorship, I am against it in pretty much all forms, it should be left up to the consumer what he/she gets on their computer, the more control the end user has over content they get, the better.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh well , that's Microsoft. Fortunately, there are ways to get back the Start Menu. There's a nice review I stumbled upon a few days back.

http://darktips.com/start-menu-in-windows-8/

Nice, thanks for that!:shucks:

[AVGWarhawk]

Purchasing Windows 8 is inexpensive if you are overwriting a current XP, 7 or Vista install. I have a XP computer that sits dormant. My kids run laptops now. For $39.99 I think I will will download 8 on the XP machine and see how it goes! :D

[DragonRider]

After installing Window8 and using it for a couple of weeks I decided to re-install it
this was done in two ways through an internal program found in the Change computer
settings screen which although cleaned or re-formatted my hard drive returned windows8 to
the settings that was set before the re-install.
So I did a re-install from boot and this re-set Window8 to default but after entering my
email and password all my browsing shortcuts re-appeared to the history folder in IE10
and also my desktop rotation screens also appeared.
So its worrying to me that all this information is stored somewhere by windows and also what else is stored ??? . :nope:
And no all my files were deleted in the re-install so no way was it re-set from a folder. :timeout:

[DragonRider]

just been reading up on why my internet connection started going bonkers
yes you guessed windows 8 Vs Belkin router or so it seems any router strange. :doh:

[kiwi_2005]

Dont be hating on me guys but im about to install Windows 8 pro tonight. Yea i know what was it i said. Windows 7 will do me for another 5yrs or something :roll:. But i did my research all day today - tech reviews, blogs & gaming blogs. Aparently Valve are upset but that's another story.

I just wanna see if i dont go psycho like some of the reviewers when getting use to metro. Remembering key commands is the way to go with 8. Gaming wise windows 8 is suppose to be fine.

[DragonRider]

just been reading up on why my internet connection started going bonkers
yes you guessed windows 8 Vs Belkin router or so it seems any router strange. :doh:

Was not the Belkin Router it was messing with it was my realtek interface it screwed up. and another thing once you re-install the windows 8 program 3 times or more you are done no more activation and no way of
doing it ether :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Dont be hating on me guys but im about to install Windows 8 pro tonight. Yea i know what was it i said. Windows 7 will do me for another 5yrs or something :roll:. But i did my research all day today - tech reviews, blogs & gaming blogs. Aparently Valve are upset but that's another story.

I just wanna see if i dont go psycho like some of the reviewers when getting use to metro. Remembering key commands is the way to go with 8. Gaming wise windows 8 is suppose to be fine.

Great. I'm extremely interested in what you find. :up: