View Full Version : The Renewable Energy Neither Candidate is Talking About
Betonov
10-20-12, 01:24 PM
There's a major renewable energy technology that neither presidential candidate is talking about, and it happens to be the one most popular with voters: The wood-burning stove. And though I believe the future of this country lies in aggressively producing more renewable energy, any strategy here should include modern wood stoves, not exclude them.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/biofuel/the-renewable-energy-neither-candidate-is-talking-about-13887701?click=pm_latest&src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=2718
We have a wood powered central heating system at home and I found this article interesting for the entire world, not just the US.
At least for wooded countries.
Our yearly heating bill (~€500) is less than half that of the neighbour, that uses heating oil and solar heating panels.
Takeda Shingen
10-20-12, 01:27 PM
How much wood does your household go through in a winter? Multiply that by every household in the nation. On top of that, how long does it take a sappling to grow into a harvestable tree?
It's not all that renewable.
Betonov
10-20-12, 01:43 PM
A birch tree can be ripe for chopping in 20-30 years.
But you wont believe how much firewood you get from one tree.
I own 5 hectares of forrest. It has enough birch trees ripe for chopping to heat my home for 5 winters. In that time enough birches will grow to the desirable size to cut them for another 5 winters and so on and so on...
Slovenia has 1.816.000 hectares of forests, about 58% of the entire country. Enough firewood to heat 1.000.000 homes (counting out the industry aplicable wood) per winter. In a country of 2.000.000 people we have enough to export.
Of course, lets be real. Wood burning only really works in rural areas and sub-urbs. One fammily houses. But its enough to shift oil and gas consumption from half the population.
And Texas or Spain would also be an exception here.
Takeda Shingen
10-20-12, 01:54 PM
A birch tree can be ripe for chopping in 20-30 years.
But you wont believe how much firewood you get from one tree.
I own 5 hectares of forrest. It has enough birch trees ripe for chopping to heat my home for 5 winters. In that time enough birches will grow to the desirable size to cut them for another 5 winters and so on and so on...
Slovenia has 1.816.000 hectares of forests, about 58% of the entire country. Enough firewood to heat 1.000.000 homes (counting out the industry aplicable wood) per winter. In a country of 2.000.000 people we have enough to export.
Of course, lets be real. Wood burning only really works in rural areas and sub-urbs. One fammily houses. But its enough to shift oil and gas consumption from half the population.
And Texas or Spain would also be an exception here.
I know how much firewood you can get from one tree. It all depends on the size of said tree. Here's a good estimate from the University of New Hampshire:
http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource001044_Rep1200.pdf
The age of the tree can be estimated using diameter as noted by the Missouri Department of Conservation:
http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/homeowners/how-old-tree
I buy one cord of wood for the fireplace in my home, and we go through that entire cord by spring only burning recreationally. My bet is that if I heated my home with a wood stove, I'd need at least 4 cords, and probably more like 6-8. For the sake of argument, let's pick a very small number; say two cords per household seasonally.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
Census data puts the number of households in the US at 114,235,996. We'll round down for expediency's sake and say 114 million. If 1/4th of all US households switched to wood heat that would be 28.5 million households. At two cords per household that is 57 million cords of wood, requiring approximately 2.85 billion 5" diameter trees seasonally. Each 5" diameter tree requires 25 years to mature.
No, it's not at all sustainable in large scale. That's why no one is talking about it.
Platapus
10-20-12, 02:20 PM
Can Bamboo be made in to a product that can be used in such stoves?
Another thing you should also have in mind is the woods heat coefficient
or heat capacity
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-solids-d_154.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity
Markus
Betonov
10-20-12, 04:12 PM
My bet is that if I heated my home with a wood stove, I'd need at least 4 cords, and probably more like 6-8.1 cord is 3,62 m3. we use 2-3 cords of wood per winter to heat our home. I don't understand where you burn 8 cords of wood unles you live in a warehouse.
Depends on the stove actually. I'm talking about a modern wood burner you light up and stock like a old school stove, but has much better insulation and heats the house by heating water for the radiators, not by radiating it into the room. Even when the fire dies down, the amber heats the water and even when amber turns to ash there's enough hot water in the system to heat the house for another couple of hours.
OK, if were talking about the USA, we can leave out California, Texas, Florida and all other warmer states. You can half the amount of homes that will go for wood heating.
So now we need 1.43 billion trees per year. Average density of forrests in Slovenia is somewhere between 500 and 600 trees per hectare* and roughly guessing one fifth of them is over 5'' diameter in a area of 1.816.000ha, so that is 200 million or more trees. A country smaller than New Jersey would provide one seventh of your needs and still wouldn't resort to clear cutting. One tenth for argument sake, there's to much variables.
And you don't have only 5'' and saplings in one hectare, you have mixed sizes. Trees that are too small this year will be good next year and so on.
It's not a solution, but can ease the problems. A tree grows 25 years, oil or coal needs millions.
*page 33
http://www.digitalna-knjiznica.bf.uni-lj.si/vs_robic_uros&ines.pdf
em2nought
10-20-12, 05:11 PM
Paulownia is a hardwood that can be harvested in about eight years, or so they say. We'll see, the tallest one for me in one season was about twelve feet so far.
Sounds better as something to put money into than this BS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmPhLYpnMo
Takeda Shingen
10-20-12, 05:12 PM
And you don't have only 5'' and saplings in one hectare, you have mixed sizes. Trees that are too small this year will be good next year and so on.
I used the 5 inch diameter due to the fact that it only takes 25 years. Those 22 inchers take a century to grow, which only excacerbates the supply problem if you are going to wait to harvest them.
Assuming what you said is correct about 200 million trees, that does not even come close to compensating for the necessary consumption of 2.85 billion required to supply one quarter of American families with 2 cords per season. North America would be completely deforested within a decade.
I burn between 3-4 cords a year and it keeps my oil consumption down to 1 tank (200 gallons) per year, mostly for hot water. Seasoned cord wood around here goes for anywhere between $200 and $250 each. I could probably save a cord if I were to replace my 1970's vintage stove with something more modern.
Betonov
10-21-12, 04:08 AM
You're right Takeda, It would be too much deforestation to heat 1/4 of US homes. But you don't need to heat 1/4 of US homes with wood.
The mistakes everyone makes with renewable enrgy is the belief that there's one universal solution. You won't get anywhere with just one type. You put more solutions into the problem.
You heat 500 000 homes with wood, you get 500 000 homes away from oil/gas consumption. New England, Maine, Montana, Canada would benefit due to large wood stocks and low sunlight/wind.
Texas doesn't need wood stoves, that wouldn't be smart. Texas, Nevada, sunny states would get 1.000.000 homes into solar power, 1M homes away from oil/gas and not one tree needs to be chopped to heat them.
Tecnology in wood burning has improved since the homestead stoves. A hectare can heat a small town or village. Funrniture industry waste can be turned into pellets or briquetes and one factory can heat the homes of their employes with that leftovers.
Renewable energy is taking gradual steps. One home with solar power, another with wind power, a third with wood and you've already cut fossil fuel dependence to 3 fammilies.
You're right Takeda, It would be too much deforestation to heat 1/4 of US homes. But you don't need to heat 1/4 of US homes with wood.
The mistakes everyone makes with renewable enrgy is the belief that there's one universal solution. You won't get anywhere with just one type. You put more solutions into the problem.
You heat 500 000 homes with wood, you get 500 000 homes away from oil/gas consumption. New England, Maine, Montana, Canada would benefit due to large wood stocks and low sunlight/wind.
Texas doesn't need wood stoves, that wouldn't be smart. Texas, Nevada, sunny states would get 1.000.000 homes into solar power, 1M homes away from oil/gas and not one tree needs to be chopped to heat them.
Tecnology in wood burning has improved since the homestead stoves. A hectare can heat a small town or village. Funrniture industry waste can be turned into pellets or briquetes and one factory can heat the homes of their employes with that leftovers.
Renewable energy is taking gradual steps. One home with solar power, another with wind power, a third with wood and you've already cut fossil fuel dependence to 3 fammilies.
Well said.
Besides wood is the only heating fuel that warms you twice. When you burn it and before when you cut, split and stack it. :)
nikimcbee
10-21-12, 10:40 AM
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/biofuel/the-renewable-energy-neither-candidate-is-talking-about-13887701?click=pm_latest&src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=2718
We have a wood powered central heating system at home and I found this article interesting for the entire world, not just the US.
At least for wooded countries.
Our yearly heating bill (~€500) is less than half that of the neighbour, that uses heating oil and solar heating panels.
They've got that here (kinda), it's called bio-mass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass
I guess what they do here is clean out the forest floor of the debris and convert it to bio mass. The debris they remove helps prevent forest fires, or something like that. It seems like a good idea, because they are not cutting down new trees. I'm not sure how large of a population this will support though.
nikimcbee
10-21-12, 10:42 AM
Well said.
Besides wood is the only heating fuel that warms you twice. When you burn it and before when you cut, split and stack it. :)
It's a great fitness program. :haha:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cq63ak0Fmw,,, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cq63ak0Fmw,,,seen) seen this a while back thought I wouldn't find it,,a novel idea...
em2nought
10-21-12, 01:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cq63ak0Fmw,,, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cq63ak0Fmw,,,seen) seen this a while back thought I wouldn't find it,,a novel idea...
Mount that on a highway mower and you've got something.
Renewable energy becomes more renewable the less you consume it so I think energy efficiency is the key. Insulation and more efficient stoves.
I have a 2x3 top loading stove of 1970's vintage. I'm thinking an upgrade might make a fairly big difference.
em2nought
10-21-12, 02:43 PM
Renewable energy becomes more renewable the less you consume it so I think energy efficiency is the key. Insulation and more efficient stoves.
I have a 2x3 top loading stove of 1970's vintage. I'm thinking an upgrade might make a fairly big difference.
How about a Tulikivi http://www.mainemasonrystove.com/about_tulikivi/index.html
How about a Tulikivi http://www.mainemasonrystove.com/about_tulikivi/index.html
That was very interesting, thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHvEsUv0wg so tell me again why do we need to go to the moon to look for water to make fuel when we got a couple of glass fulls here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xHvEsUv0wg so tell me again why do we need to go to the moon to look for water to make fuel when we got a couple of glass fulls here.
So tell me again why this hasnt spread to the metal or the automobile industry? He started making these claims back in 2006 already. Surely,
if this was as big of a thing as he makes it to be, everyone would be using it, right? :O:
em2nought
10-21-12, 06:58 PM
So tell me again why this hasnt spread to the metal or the automobile industry? He started making these claims back in 2006 already. Surely,
if this was as big of a thing as he makes it to be, everyone would be using it, right? :O:
$7000 for a welder :dead:
So tell me again why this hasnt spread to the metal or the automobile industry? He started making these claims back in 2006 already. Surely,
if this was as big of a thing as he makes it to be, everyone would be using it, right? :O:
You really think our wacked out governments want us sheepeople to find out,'that it is this easy to break done water to be used as fuel even though we are sitting on more oil here in the states than most of the world and Odumber won't go after it,, what would the muslim brotherhood think,..??? even japan is making a car that runs on water,, you guys really need to get out more...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydEkV-E0mP8&feature=related
You really think our wacked out governments want us sheepeople to find out,'that it is this easy to break done water to be used as fuel even though we are sitting on more oil here in the states than most of the world and Odumber won't go after it,, what would the muslim brotherhood think,..??? even japan is making a car that runs on water,, you guys really need to get out more...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydEkV-E0mP8&feature=related
If I recall correctly, the problem isnt that it doesnt work. The problem is that
it is inefficient. More energy is used in the process of making it than it actually produces.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/biofuel/the-renewable-energy-neither-candidate-is-talking-about-13887701?click=pm_latest&src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=2718
We have a wood powered central heating system at home and I found this article interesting for the entire world, not just the US.
At least for wooded countries.
Our yearly heating bill (~***8364;500) is less than half that of the neighbour, that uses heating oil and solar heating panels.
Its nice for you in rural Slovenia with your 5 hectares of forrest mate. Now then, would you like to come in live in a 1,570 Km city like London when 8 million wood stoves are burning all at once? oh and where fire wood would have to be purchased from a profiteering retail outlet like Tesco for about 10% of the average wage?... No, I didnt think so. :O: london used to be like that back when we had a life expentancy of 30 years, (but with coal) and from what I hear, it made from some pretty discusting living conditions.
Also in the UK we are so health and safty concious that is it is illegal to smoke a ciggarette in a public building, so you can forget about a wood stove.
Its nice for you in rural Slovenia with your 5 hectares of forrest mate. Now then, would you like to come in live in a 1,570 Km city like London when 8 million wood stoves are burning all at once? oh and where fire wood would have to be purchased from a profiteering retail outlet like Tesco for about 10% of the average wage?... No, I didnt think so. :O: london used to be like that back when we had a life expentancy of 30 years, (but with coal) and from what I hear, it made from some pretty discusting living conditions.
Also in the UK we are so health and safty concious that is it is illegal to smoke a ciggarette in a public building, so you can forget about a wood stove.
"8 million"? A wood stove for every man women and child in London. Exaggerate much? :O:
No seriously he said this was a rural solution.
Jimbuna
10-22-12, 08:08 AM
A smallish island like the UK should be investing more into harnessing the wind and tides IMHO.
If I recall correctly, the problem isnt that it doesnt work. The problem is that
it is inefficient. More energy is used in the process of making it than it actually produces.
Certainly you can spare 12 volts I made a hho generator out of an old mayo jar 2 stainless steel bolts, filled the jar with water with a tea spoon of baking soda and hooked a little solar panel to it and got a nice little reaction out of it, I should finish the bigger one I'm working on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZ65U5Jn-s&feature=related
AVGWarhawk
10-22-12, 09:44 AM
Why worry about heating homes at all? The globe is warming. In a few years we will all be french fried potatoes. :O:
Why worry about heating homes at all? The globe is warming. In a few years we will all be french fried potatoes. :O: thanks now I'm hungry
AVGWarhawk
10-22-12, 09:51 AM
thanks now I'm hungry
Starch keeps one fat, happy and warm. :D
AVGWarhawk
10-22-12, 10:05 AM
Look into N-butanol. Wave of the future. :03:
Betonov
10-22-12, 12:05 PM
Yubba the scientist, this is new :hmmm:
You should realy stick to posting about home experiments and model railroading
I'm a bit sceptical about these home made reactor youtube videos.
I'll check them out later and try to replicate them if I find one convincing enough.
Speaking of wood. We were stockpiling waste from wood all year and this weekend I'll be in charge of grinding all that wood and throwing it in the briquette machine :D
There will be enough of those briquettes for 20 cubic meters of firewood and the sales profits should fund all the company picnics for 2013. :D
Yubba the scientist, this is new :hmmm:
You should realy stick to posting about home experiments and model railroading
:D Where's the fun in only doing that ??? I'm just a man of many hats, and interests, ran across something else pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb2df72N3FU&feature=related the leaf log was a pretty good idea pressed leaves glued together with flour and water
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