Citing U.S. Fears, Arab Allies Limit Syrian Rebel Aid

[Gerald]

http://imageshack.us/a/img854/6993/gulfarticlelarge.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/gulfarticlelarge.jpg/)
Denied more weapons like shoulder-fired missiles, Syrian rebels rely on rifles like this Kalashnikov, or AK. “You can’t stop the Syrian regime’s military with AKs,” a state official in Qatar said.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — For months, Saudi Arabia and Qatar have been funneling money and small arms to Syria’s rebels but have refused to provide heavier weapons, like shoulder-fired missiles, that could allow opposition fighters to bring down government aircraft, take out armored vehicles and turn the war’s tide. While they have publicly called for arming the rebels, they have held back, officials in both countries said, in part because they have been discouraged by the United States, which fears the heavier weapons could end up in the hands of terrorists.

As a result, the rebels have just enough weapons to maintain a stalemate, the war grinds on and more jihadist militants join the fray every month.

“You can give the rebels AKs, but you can’t stop the Syrian regime’s military with AKs,” said Khalid al-Attiyah, a state minister for foreign affairs in Qatar. Providing the rebels with heavier weapons “has to happen,” he added. “But first we need the backing of the United States, and preferably the U.N.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/world/middleeast/citing-us-fears-arab-allies-limit-aid-to-syrian-rebels.html?hp


Note: October 6, 2012

[Stealhead]

They dont seem to specify what they mean by "shoulder fired missile" to me they are talking about a MANPADs which might be in low supply but they must surely have plenty of RPGs which can take out a tank even a T-72.

Even if they get a supply of better anti tank weapons it might not make much of a difference if they fail to use them effectively just having a better weapon is not enough.

I think what the rebels lack is solid organization and discipline. In this video you can see that they do have RPGs and even a home made mortar tube it also shows that at least this group are bunch clowns more or less.They need discipline badly and anyone that shows up to provide it will have power.Just look at the derp with the 12 gauge in the second video.

http://news.linktv.org/videos/life-with-syrias-rebels-in-a-cold-and-cunning-war

http://news.linktv.org/videos/aleppo-rebels-fueled-by-bravery-hindered-by-indiscipline

[Gerald]

Something like this that you describe,or similar equipment.

http://imageshack.us/a/img842/6251/iglamissile5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/iglamissile5.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/1830/shoulderfiredmissile.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/shoulderfiredmissile.jpg/)

[TLAM Strike]

Weapons alone are not going to help these guys...
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/9171/jb4udmgfzkchvp0zrlcyrg2.jpg

[Gerald]

^I saw the links .. and "light" weapons.

[MH]

Sorry for not being original.....


http://s1.wallls.com/preview/0/nuke-funny-2749.jpg

[Stealhead]

Something like this that you describe,or similar equipment.

http://imageshack.us/a/img842/6251/iglamissile5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/iglamissile5.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img197/1830/shoulderfiredmissile.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/shoulderfiredmissile.jpg/)


Weapons that they lack the discipline to use properly and the AT-4 they already have the Russian counterpart to that the RPG-7 which for their needs is a better weapon as the AT-4 is a one time use weapon fire the rocket throw away the tube you need to carry several AT-4s compared to one RPG tube and several rockets of varying type.They like to use the RPG as an indirect fire weapon against troops which can actually be effective if you know what you are doing if not it is little more than an irritation.

They have no real discipline or organization to allow them to effectively combat the Syrian armed forces in that one video they had the POW drive the bomb laden truck and it of course did not explode so they wasted resources and allowed an enemy combatant to fight another day it seems that the idea of integrating the guy for information did not even cross their minds.One kid says that he has 4 magazines for his AK-47 that is only 120 rounds which judging by their fire discipline would last perhaps 2 or 3 minutes at best in a real firefight.My guess is that only a handful are really truly fighting and even those types lack any discipline to really have a effect lasting.

They need an air force to gain air superiority and to destroy the Syrian artillery that deals them so much damage.

[Skybird]

The Libyan war showed that weapons alone did not help the rebels, but the training they got and their growing experience in how to coordinate groups of fighters on the ground and actually act in battle like a coordinated force, instead of many single small teams doing what they want and ignoring the others, and lacking the discipline to coordinate with others. When they had learned that, they suddenly became much more potent as a fighting force, even with those improvised weapons of theirs.

Modern Western or Russian weapons, no matter whether simple assault rifles or missiles of any type, should be taboo. Iran and Islamic terror groups will make sure they get their share of such deliveries. Guess whom they will point them at next.

What they could get, if one really thinks it is no idiotic idea at all to get involved in Syria, is old Russian weapons from the black market.

If one thinks that is no idiotic idea. I personally think we should not get involved, and should enforce an embargo that hinders Russia, China and Iran to send in military supplies, as far as that is possible without starting to blow up Russian freighters or transports, which maybe would be no good idea. And to stumble into world war iii over a dark place like Syria is not worth it, I think. It's enough to occasionally blow up their latest nuclear weapon program component, like the Israelis did. Which leaves one wondering why one has not started to do that 15 years ago with regard to Iran. Would have saved us from many troubles we have today with Iran - and more to come.

What's more, the Turkish messiah-emperor Erdoghan I. uses the conflict to boost Turkish dominance and profile in the region. I see no need to assist him in that. Or give him the opportunity to hijack and abuse NATO for his intentions.

[soopaman2]

Do these guys got reactive armor on the tanks?

Or slat armor.

RPG 7s are crap on that, unless you manage to land multiple shots, which is always a bit of luck considering it is unguided.

Russians just sell them crap don't they?

Not taking sides, I am just happy to see them killing each other, rather than Americans.

[TLAM Strike]

Do these guys got reactive armor on the tanks?

Or slat armor.

RPG 7s are crap on that, unless you manage to land multiple shots, which is always a bit of luck considering it is unguided.

Russians just sell them crap don't they?

Not taking sides, I am just happy to see them killing each other, rather than Americans.

They have ERA, I'm not sure about Slat Armor.
http://imageshack.us/a/img824/3858/syriatanks.jpg
^Syrian MBT in Homs.

[Oberon]

They're doing the best they can but they are, at best, an unorganised rabble, although Assads military (although better armed) isn't much better. There's a video as part of a fail compilation which I can't link here, which I'm pretty sure is from Syria, of a BMP trying to crush a car in a narrow street, and then failing miserably and tipping over on its side.

[soopaman2]

I am conflicted in "rooting" for anyone.

I just know somehow it will become "Americas fault", no matter what happens.

Like Libya, and Egypt...

They deserve freedom, but what band of jihadists will replace Assad?

[Oberon]

I am conflicted in "rooting" for anyone.

I just know somehow it will become Americas fault, no matter what happens.

It most likely will, that's the cost of being the pre-eminent global superpower, and having a number of key strategic partners and assets in the region.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Honestly what we're seeing here is the beginning of the 'Great Game Part Three', in the fact that Syria lies between two superpowers, the US (in Israel) and Russia, both have vested interests in the area, and both want a different side to win. A lot of it is down to resource gain as opposed to geographical gain as it was during the last Great Games, and some of it is down to maintaining the sway of a nation within a region in order to keep the current resources flowing.
Once again, the Great Game focuses on Eurasia which is, some claim, a geopolitical pivot point...certainly if one were to focus on how many wars have been fought in the area, one can see its importance.
Unfortunately for America, what this means is that it cannot cut itself out of this game and expect to maintain its position as a top superpower, you cannot back out of the Great Game and still expect victory, but at the same time...the Great Game doesn't usually end well.

It's telling, that the last Soviet-backed president of Afghanistan spent his final days translating Peter Hopkirks book 'The Great Game' into Pashto, hoping that: "They [Afghans] can see how our history has repeated itself...Only if we understand our history can we take steps to break the cycle" alas he was executed by the Taliban and the translation of the book has disappeared into the sands of time.

History repeats itself...oh so many times it repeats itself. There are so many similarities you can draw between now and the state of Eurasia in the 1800s...alas the tangled web of alliances made in the emergence of Germany as a major industrial power paved the way for the massacre that was the First World War. I just hope that we don't stroll down that road again.

[Skybird]

Do these guys got reactive armor on the tanks?

Or slat armor.

RPG 7s are crap on that, unless you manage to land multiple shots, which is always a bit of luck considering it is unguided.

Russians just sell them crap don't they?


RPG-7 is not like RPG-7. They come in a wide variety of models, from "old" to "recent". The most recent ones you do not want to get hit by.

Then: urban warfare, infantry firing at tanks from elevated positions. Russian tanks find it difficult to elevate their guns that much so that they can aim fighters on roofs and close by, they learned that the hard way both in Chechnya and again in Georgia. But fighters have fun firing RPGs onto tanks' roofs.

And in infantry fights I assume even an old RPG-7 is bad news for the receiver.

And Russians selling crap, well, their AAMs and ATGMs I do respect. Some of them are really extremely lethal.

[Stealhead]

RPG-7 is not like RPG-7. They come in a wide variety of models, from "old" to "recent". The most recent ones you do not want to get hit by.

Then: urban warfare, infantry firing at tanks from elevated positions. Russian tanks find it difficult to elevate their guns that much so that they can aim fighters on roofs and close by, they learned that the hard way both in Chechnya and again in Georgia. But fighters have fun firing RPGs onto tanks' roofs.

And in infantry fights I assume even an old RPG-7 is bad news for the receiver.

And Russians selling crap, well, their AAMs and ATGMs I do respect. Some of them are really extremely lethal.


You are correct in this assumption though the term old a new is not really accurate.

The RPG is a family like any other modern weapon it improves over time like the M-16 for example since 1965 there has been M-16E1,M-16A1,M-16A2,M-16A4 (the A3 is a low production fully auto A2).The same goes for the RPG-7 which actually began life as the RPG-3.

The RPG-7 remains effective on a modern battlefield because the warheads desgined for use with it are always being developed and improved.

So a skilled RPG gunner and more so a skilled unit that has RPG men it its ranks can be very dangerous indeed to infantry.The Taliban become big fans of using RPG-7s with anti personnel warheads and PKMs against ISAF forces.They used these two weapons because they allowed for attack outside of the effective range of 5.56mm ammo but still allowed the Taliban to cause serious damage.They would have several men volley fire RPGs as an indirect fire weapon and then further try to pin down troops with the PKM LMG fire as soon as the enemy force began to counter attack they would disengage before air assets could arrive.

A few US military officers have actually written papers about the threat that RPGs generate and the fact that the US military does not have truly a direct counter to the RPG.Read a little about the AT-4 and related rockets they are much less reliable than RPGs not to mention their one time use weakness the RRPG also is much more deadly than an M203 or the M383, M384(used by the Mk.19 which of course is not deployable by one man) .

Even the Rand corporation did studies of NVA and VC POWs and found that they considered the RPG/B-40 to be there most effective weapon against US troops.

Here is an article about the Advantages of the RPG and areas of weakness in our doctrine.

http://www.combatreform.org/ttprpg.htm

[Jimbuna]

As more military defect the FSA will slowly but surely become more proficient in the use of the weapons they have...organising them into a cohesive force would surely take many months of training, even presuming the defectors are of sufficient experience.

[Stealhead]

It all depends on who defects really it might be the most poorly disciplined solider who dislikes taking orders and wants to get back at his commanders until the danger arrives and he splits or hides.:yep:

They will just keep slogging it out but the Syrian government has an air force and tanks which the rebels lack and they also have much better access to weapons and ammo as supplies dwindle the rebels will become less willing to fight.

[Jimbuna]

There is also the possibility that weapons support will increase as anti Assad countries increase their support for the FSA.

I'm wondering just how high morale is amongst his front line units after being ordered to fight and kill their own countrymen for so long.

[Stealhead]

Well one can always try to hire as many sociopaths as possible some enjoy the power that a certain type of government might give them I am sure that many Gestapo men where not really Nazis but they enjoyed the powers that the Nazi party gave them.

Also in Syria you have many different factions that do not see eye to eye I think that more might choose Assad or the FSA if one side or the other showed favor or threat to their interests.

Hard to say really I think that many of these countries (ME ones) aren't really getting that heavily involved because they may actually prefer Assad to whom ever might take over from him if the FSA where to win so they sit and wait to see what comes along.

They may not always like Assad but they also fear a replacement that might challenge status quo so unless they can be sure that their man gets in they might stay mostly on the sidelines.

[TLAM Strike]

Also in Syria you have many different factions that do not see eye to eye I think that more might choose Assad or the FSA if one side or the other showed favor or threat to their interests. Exactly, Syria can be seen demographically as a mirror image of Iraq.