Germany and France vow to strengthen ties [Archive]

Gerald

09-22-12, 05:23 PM

French and German leaders have stressed they will remain committed in tackling European issues on the 50th anniversary of a post-WWII reconciliation speech.

Chancellor Angela Merkel and President Francois Hollande made the pledge in the German city of Ludwigsburg.

Speaking in German there in 1962, French President Charles de Gaulle said they were "children of a great nation which had made great errors".

The two allies are working closely to address the current euro debt crisis.

"Less than 20 years after the most horrible global conflict, it took boldness to call for the union of our two countries which had fought against each other with such savagery," Mr Hollande said.

"It took boldness to believe in Europe, this continent which had just torn itself apart. It took boldness to turn resentment into hope."

France and Germany have "a very special responsibility, we form the heart of Europe", he said.

Mr Hollande spoke of the need to "create instruments that make us stronger: a fiscal union, a banking union, a social union, a political union".

At the end of his speech, President Hollande spoke in German addressing young people in both countries: "It is now your role to make the European dream a reality and give it a future."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19684532

Note: 22 September 2012 Last updated at 15:26 GMT

Gargamel

09-22-12, 06:53 PM

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/FrenchArmyKnife.jpg

Skybird

09-22-12, 07:36 PM

Germany and France vow to strengthen ties

:haha: Good one!

soopaman2

09-22-12, 08:04 PM

Herr-Berbunch

09-23-12, 03:38 AM

More 'living room', again. :03:

Don't blame me, Soopaman2 started it.

Schroeder

09-23-12, 03:47 AM

I always thought since the euro currency came about, they wanted to do to Europe, what Panzers didn't accomplish.Too much power, for a nation who in less than 20 years apart...Nevermind

You are aware that a lot of Eurpoean countries which are struck by the self created crisis are trying to bleed us white? They are demanding money, money money and more money and who would be a better candidate for paying than those guys who lost the war?
Actually our chancellor has caved in to most of their demands. We are killing our own budget to try to help others (and I say to try because I don't think that Greece can actually be saved...). So where is that panzer like power you are speaking of?:hmm2:

Hottentot

09-23-12, 04:26 AM

who would be a better candidate for paying than those guys who lost the war?

The smaller guys who also lost the war.

Skybird

09-23-12, 05:08 AM

I thought the Maginot line was for strengthening ties.

It just caused the low countries to be invaded first.

Kidding really (sorta), I deserve whatever I get for that.

I have a nasty critisizm of Germanys banker loving government. (Not the people)

I always thought since the euro currency came about, they wanted to do to Europe, what Panzers didn't accomplish.Too much power, for a nation who in less than 20 years apart...Nevermind

Blunt, perhaps a bit caustic. I swear I am not trolling. Just being honest. :salute:
Feel free to kill me.
You are aware that the French threatened to not accept the Germn reunification and not signing the according treaties "2+4" if Westgermany does not will to replace the D-Mark with an Euro whose introduction thus should be accelerated dispite all warning sand against all economic and political reason!? Mitterand openly compared the D-Mark to a "German atom bomb". The French have a serious problem with their past, they just cannot get over that their imperial glory is over and that by their own means they are too weak to appear and be that strong as they want to be, economically. And this although they practically have invented the Airbus industry.

And so the disaster unfolded.

The world laughed about the Germans who know nothing about quick profit and short-termed gains, these funny Germans buying so many life insurances instead and privately saving more than any other people for bad times. Even worse - now the German private savings should be stolen by the ECB and get used to save foreign nations and their banks who behave like playing in a Casino. The people who accumulated these savings over their working lives are expected to accept poverty in their high age and be turned into social wellfare cases, although they tried to prepare against poverty for over 30, 40 years of their working life.

WWII has cut deep wounds into German soul, if you think you can walk here in Germany and propagate German ruling and expansion again in Europe, than you think wrong. Our politicians spend half of the day giving warnings to each other that German should not lead and should not dare to do anything to give the impression again that German expansionism is back, and so on and on, just yesterday it was done again by Helmut Schmidt who got some award (I really hope that he finally would shut up now, he's 94 but talks as if still living in the 1950s or 1960s).

And even when the Euro was prepared for, and installed, many of the criminal debtors of today already knew they would end like they did today, which shows they had the intention to live by the German blood drip from all beginning on: of Greece we know that they successfully protested and threatened boycott to prevent that Euro banknotes get national marking (like coins can be individually identified for each country). Because then there would have been Greek Euros and Spanish Euros and so on, and in the situation today it wouldn'T be possible for them to do what actually they do right now, without the ECB: they prnt their own Euros and throw them onto the market, because you cannot identify them and get them out of the market and ban these banknotes from circulating. Go figure what that means for all these pathetic claims about how to manage the crisis and that they have to fulfill obligations and so on. It is no secret anymore that these countries do not fulfill even half of their negotiated obligations. Instead they pump their home-made money into the European bankote market.

It'S all a mess that equals a perfect storm for Germany. It will crush my country in the long run, I am certain. And when there is nothing to be sucked out of Germany by the others anymore, than this monetarian union and this wonderful EU will have achieved right the opposite of what they - anti-intellectually - claim what it is about. They claim without the Euro and the EU their would be war and bloodshed , and peace would break apart. They ignore NATO and the USSR threat and claim that it were the EU that brought and secured peace to Europe. But when Germany has been sucked empty and drowns in its debts like America today, then their will be much more hostility in Europe again, not less. Their will be more mutual animosities between the various people, not less (we already see it today: how often do Germans get accused to be Nazis if they do not will to pay unconditionally for the others?) There can be riots that surpass those seen in Greece. Their can come civil wars and uprises. And after that, even national wars cannot be ruled out anymore. Though I doubt it will be hightech armies fighting them.

Skybird

09-23-12, 05:14 AM

The smaller guys who also lost the war.Yep. Occasionally we hear in our media here that in Finland their is growing demand to quit over the Euro, or at least not paying for the Southern countries anymore. If you Fins are clever, you really do that. In Germany, such a proposal would be a hopeless cause. We will accept to burn and fall with it all until the bitter end. But you Fins must not follow our obsession for self-destruction! ;)

Holland would be well-advised to quit, to, also Austria. Leave the French alone with the Frankenstein monster they have created, shall the French pay themselves to death for the Southern countries they love so much.

Oh wait. They hang on the German drip already, too, just deceive it cleverly via the ECB and Euro policies. - As a German, when you are screwed, then you are really screwed totally. :-?

joea

09-23-12, 05:20 AM

You are aware that a lot of Eurpoean countries which are struck by the self created crisis are trying to bleed us white? They are demanding money, money money and more money and who would be a better candidate for paying than those guys who lost the war?
Actually our chancellor has caved in to most of their demands. We are killing our own budget to try to help others (and I say to try because I don't think that Greece can actually be saved...). So where is that panzer like power you are speaking of?:hmm2:
I think you mean the banks that loaned money to governments incapable of repaying, aided and abetted by the German government (and other countries) and most of all the EU itself got in "trouble" and now want help. Everyone seems blind to the real causes and accept the clichés fed to us-lazy PIGS and "panzer are back"-rather than those that screwed everyone over.

joea

09-23-12, 05:26 AM

Yep. Occasionally we hear in our media here that in Finland their is growing demand to quit over the Euro, or at least not paying for the Southern countries anymore. If you Fins are clever, you really do that. In Germany, such a proposal would be a hopeless cause. We will accept to burn and fall with it all until the bitter end. But you Fins must not follow our obsession for self-destruction! ;)

Holland would be well-advised to quit, to, also Austria. Leave the French alone with the Frankenstein monster they have created, shall the French pay themselves to death for the Southern countries they love so much.

Oh wait. They hang on the German drip already, too, just deceive it cleverly via the ECB and Euro policies. - As a German, when you are screwed, then you are really screwed totally. :-?
Still stuck on this northern industrious folk paying for the lazy southerners eh? One who is so critical of the falsehoods we are all fed.

joea

09-23-12, 05:29 AM

The smaller guys who also lost the war.
Codswallop, Holland won, anyway that is all garbage. I've alread posted articles a long time ago so either search yourself or try to look beyond the crap the EU is feeding everyone as to the root causes of the crisis.

Hottentot

09-23-12, 06:00 AM

Codswallop, Holland won, anyway that is all garbage. I've alread posted articles a long time ago so either search yourself or try to look beyond the crap the EU is feeding everyone as to the root causes of the crisis.

How about taking a chill-pill and trying again?

Yep. Occasionally we hear in our media here that in Finland their is growing demand to quit over the Euro, or at least not paying for the Southern countries anymore. If you Fins are clever, you really do that. In Germany, such a proposal would be a hopeless cause. We will accept to burn and fall with it all until the bitter end. But you Fins must not follow our obsession for self-destruction! ;)

I'm not sure if I would talk about any demand yet. The ones who do demand it tend to be loud, but I don't know if it's the popular opinion yet (any Finn with statistics, feel free to correct me.) And it's the payment packages that get most of the criticism, though people seem to be becoming more sceptical towards the Union itself too. Really, hard to say based on just personal observations.

And with the current administration it's just not going to happen. I'm also very sceptical of the True Finns' potential as well, and they are just about the only party that could try achieving something as radical as that.

Jimbuna

09-23-12, 06:13 AM

Regardless of whatever side or viewpoint you take I think everyone can agree on one thing...the EU is in financial crisis.

What bothers me most is I don't see anyone learning any lessons from the situation but rather a collection of individual countries going their own way toward whatever they believe to be the best way for a solution to them as individual nations.

I fear it will all go belly up in the end and hope Britain withdraws before that day is upon us.

Oberon

09-23-12, 07:12 AM

What bothers me most is I don't see anyone learning any lessons from the situation but rather a collection of individual countries going their own way toward whatever they believe to be the best way for a solution to them as individual nations.

Was it ever going to end any other way?
As I said to the chaps on TS last night, you can't get a group of countries that have spent pretty much their entire histories beating each other senseless and suddenly expect them to put their differences aside and not put their own nation first. The Euro was doomed to fail from the start, not because of finances, or not just because of it, but because of human nature. We're just not ready for that level of co-ordination yet, heck I mean look at the UN and the tangled inoperative mess that that has become from the good intentions of post-World War II. National pride and motives will seep into any political agenda.

Kloef

09-23-12, 07:32 AM

France and Germany have "a very special responsibility, we form the heart of Europe", he said.

Translation: 'we are living the dream that we think we own Europe' :har:

Maybe they should think about working together to dismantle all those rusty nuclear plants on the French border, the Germans allrady shut theirs, what about France? I mean they allready know eachothers borders like no other country ánd it would be really nice to aviod this nuclear disaster then wait for it to happen, right France?

And don't worry, the rich countries will pay as they allways have, n'est pas?

STEED

09-23-12, 07:37 AM

So France gets to keep twisting German balls...that's to say what's left of them.

Germany I do hope you know if Italy goes to financial hell this will have a major impact on Frances second largest bank who has a lot of banking with Italy and the result could bring France down which it turn will hit the next domino that being Germany.

Jim, no such chance of the UK leaving the EU what so ever...unless there is a revolution and I can not see that coming in my life time.

Kloef

09-23-12, 07:42 AM

2 rats working together how to abandon ship when the time comes, they talk about strengthening eachother while the rest of Europe is falling apart..well it's not that we saw it coming is it?:hmmm:

Skybird

09-23-12, 07:52 AM

Still stuck on this northern industrious folk paying for the lazy southerners eh? One who is so critical of the falsehoods we are all fed.

I see it is still popular to simply accuse us evil Germans and expect us to pay for you eternally, while denying the responsibility of your own people for your own state and your own corrupted system.

Well, already the ancient Egypts called the Greek "their spoilt little children".

If you want to accuse anyone, then accuse your own citizens who by overwhelming majority willed to be accomplice in a corrupt and rotten system as long as they benefitted from it, and accuse your own elites and politicians who are at war with your people since I do not long how long. Not before thiese ways did not function anymore you started to revolt a bit. Instead of accusing others for running their states better than you run yours, you should see them as an example by which you could learn how to run your own state. Because at the heart of the Greek problem lies that the Greek people never have learned how to run a state, and replaced it with corruption, bribery and nepotism. That worked because as long as your country had a geostrategic importance and thus was important for superior countries, they willed to pay for your deficits that you created by your ways. First they external thrad was the Osdman em,pire, later it was the USSR. But you do not have that important geostrategic meaning to offer anymore, your geostrategic position is not that important anymore after the cold war ended. Your favorite trading item - geostrategic position - does not sell anymore. You now face the consequences of your rotten system in full, without others automatically jumping to your side to compensate your deficits. So now you better change your ways, and learn how to run your banana-republic, - or you will forever stay in the swamp you are in now.

Not before you accept responsibility for your own fate, will your situation ever improve. Look at Finland, they had very serious financial and economic troubles, and if they would have done like Greece does today, they still would have them, and would be dependent, and would have no reason to be proud. But they did not do like that, but spit in their hands, tightened their belts, and got to work on their economy and state. today, they are well off, and I have a damn amount of respect for what the current generation of Fins has achieved. And I have strong sympathy for any Fin now complaining why Greece expects to be given a free ride at the expense of Finland and other billions-net-payers - when Finland achieved what it did by its own work and responsibility and sacrifice.

BTW, if others pay billions and billions for you and ruins his own future, while you still tell them forged statistics and lies, the last thing you may want to do is to even accuse them and attacking them over and over again. Responsible for your misery in the first is - not us, but you. And we accept high damages to ourselves just to keep you floating. And for that we get attacks in return. It is this attitude that has many Germans showing Greece the middlefinger only anymore.

No, Joea, I completely leave you in the rain over this.

Kloef

09-23-12, 08:06 AM

Europe should kick Greece out so we can look at the concequences for the others that need to be kicked out..good riddance.

And as far as Greece goes, what Skybird says..because i will have to pay contribution for the rest of my life while they sit back and hold their hand up:nope:

Jimbuna

09-23-12, 08:30 AM

Was it ever going to end any other way?
As I said to the chaps on TS last night, you can't get a group of countries that have spent pretty much their entire histories beating each other senseless and suddenly expect them to put their differences aside and not put their own nation first. The Euro was doomed to fail from the start, not because of finances, or not just because of it, but because of human nature. We're just not ready for that level of co-ordination yet, heck I mean look at the UN and the tangled inoperative mess that that has become from the good intentions of post-World War II. National pride and motives will seep into any political agenda.

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

Skybird

09-23-12, 08:48 AM

while they sit back and hold their hand up:nope:
Maybe not that simplistic in the individual family and household. But the Greek state is a total and complete mess. I would even ask whether it really is a functional state in modern understanding. However, as long as the Greek population does not raise against the criminal and corrupted elites and make short process with them, I do not see any reason why they should deserve any form of solidarity. Instead. since years always the same liars and cheaters and gangster get elected and send to Brussel to get more money.

But the fight of the elites against the people seems to be a red trail throughout Greek history. And I doubt I live long enough to finally see them coming to terms with the modern present, sorting their state and send their corrupt elite as well as their own corrupt mentality to hell where both belong. The overblown Greek bureaucracy already was famous in the Roman empire, because it helps to deceive over the real dimension of the nepotism and bribery haunting the place.

Young Greeks with good education who are well-trained craftsmen and academics, I would like to see being welcomed in Germany. We could really use them, and we should help to make them feel home here so that they stay for life. Demographics and aging of society force us into the defensive, we need qualified migrants willing to integrate. Same is true for the Spaniards. I do not know to what degree bureaucratic realities in Germany really are that inviting to foreigners, but these two groups belong to those that really should be welcomed by us. Criterion must be qualification, willingness to fully integrate (which imo is an obligation to provide by any migrant in any country he moves to) and the realistic perspective of turning into net tax payers instead of remaining to be net wellfare receivers (means the qualification of the migrants must be in need in the hosting country).

Kloef

09-23-12, 09:13 AM

Oberon

09-23-12, 09:34 AM

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

Ideally, so would I, but if we left tomorrow our economy would just implode, we're too interlinked with it. What should be happening now, if we wanted to pull out of the EU in the future is a reinvestment in our primary and secondary industries, things like Farms, factories, mines, enough to make us as near as self-sufficient as possible so that the high tariffs don't wreck us...and even then it might not be enough since the City of London has played itself into a strong position within the EU markets and might not survive being extracted from them.
This may come about without our control, I expect, personally, that if the EU does fall, then France and Germany will set up a new EU with tighter controls. Whether we'll join that, or indeed even be invited to join that, is another matter entirely, and given the mistrust we've shown France and Germany, our reluctance to put forward into the Euro, the "We're in, we're out" attitude our government has had depending on what government is in power, means I don't think that they would invite us, just as they were reluctant to with the EU, which could freeze us out of European markets which will stifle our trade opportunities.
Then there's Eastern Europe which is a whole difference kettle of fish and may even set up its own version of the EU which works differently, and Russia will have its own version with some of the former Pact states which are still on good terms with it, Belarus for example.
It's all going to be a bit of a mess, so in one respect I can understand why so many governments are so desperate to keep the Euro afloat because if it collapses, then it's going to be a very turbulent ride for the whole world (including America), however continually propping the whole thing up may just be a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic... :dead:

Jimbuna

09-23-12, 10:02 AM

Skybird

09-23-12, 10:05 AM

But Skybird, it has been common practise for alot of European youngsters with a high education level to seek out their oppertunities all over Europe, that's nothing new..

It's just a matter of being 'attractive' enough to get those people to live in your country, and stay.
That simple it is not. Germany in the past feared to be linked to the racial issues of the Third Reich and the "Selektion" of Jews at the gates to KZs if it would dare to be discriminating "good" from "not so mush wanted" migrants. Other nations like the US have much lesser self-restrictions to discriminate according to their own interest, and so a good amount of brainy imigrants and qualified people ended up not in Germany, but in other places - leaving many social wellfare receivers coming to us instead, people who could not make it to the preferred nations due to their low social status or lacking education. Additionally in the past Germ,an bureaucracy was such that foreign qualified migrants faced more problems than necessary. Some years ago we changed laws, and a wave of top-computer experts form India swapped in. But many of them have left again, not feeling well over here, and the request by such highly qualified employees has faded again.

After the war, there came a wave of guest workers from Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia anbd Turkey to Germany. Many Spaniards and Italians meanwhile have moved back, because they did not want to stay forever anyway, and those who stick with us in germany fit in nicely and integrated, and are indeed now part of German life over here. Many Yugos move dback after the wars fade don the balkans, some stayed, also fitting in. Only the Turks came from beginning on to stay forever, and never planned to move back, the first generation was sent by Ankara and came from Anatolia, the most poor areas in Turkey, and one can understand that they do not wish to ever move back to a life so poor and miserable that it reminds of that of slave farmers in the 18th or even 17th century.

Last decade, the trend of the 50s and 60s reversed, Germans found no jobs over here, and first dsicovered the possibility to work in other countries , but close to the border, whcih is a common model still in the Danish-German border area, the border to Holland, France, and some time later Poland as well. Some Germans moved over to stay in the other nation and build their existence there. But more guest workers - this time German guest workers moved to Italy and especially Spain, these often were craftsmen who were liked due to their "German quality work" and German "punctuality: Also, especially in Spain, they were liked because they were stupid enough to even work in the heat hours of Siesta around midday. :) This was before the financial crisis broke out.

In the past two or three years we noticed an increasing stream of young migrants from Greece and Spain now moving at our direction again. Since decreasing population numbers and falling numbers of young Germans make themselves felt on the German labor market, we indeed could need them well if they are qualified. Language schools report that the demand for courses has exploded in the past 24 months, and again they say the major share of their new students are Spaniards and Greeks, mainly academics, if I recall it correctly. I think Portuguese also form a bigger group than other nationalities, and Poles.

Skybird

09-23-12, 10:33 AM

Oh look, newsflash just in: the Greek government has lied to Europe once again, the deficits in its budget calculations have been found by the Troika to be twice as big as Samaras has claimed. Here is little doubt that in Greece the furor against the Troika will reach new heights. Not Samaras is guilty - no, the Troika is guilty: for having made known the cheat.

Meanwhile Portugal has announced to abandon its strict economical consolidation policy due to pressure from the street. Bill goes to Germany, Finland, Austria, Holland once again.

And the ECB wants to lever the bailout guarantee by a factor of four, then reaching beyond 2 trillion. Who is to guarantee for the risks and will need to pay (because the guarantee case will become true sooner or later)?= Well, you can figure.

The thimbleriggers march in the streets again, and madness dances inside the houses.

Kloef

09-23-12, 10:48 AM

I agree, Germany is still considered less favourable for immigrant because of the past.

Although many Europeans have left the past to rest there are still some pretty strong feelings, especially in countries like Greece and Poland.

But i think the role and importance of that is overestimated. Germany also has alot to offer for alot of people and they would willingly put their difference aside if they can trade it with a decent future, that's just human nature.

Kloef

09-23-12, 10:50 AM

soopaman2

09-23-12, 11:33 AM

You are aware that a lot of Eurpoean countries which are struck by the self created crisis are trying to bleed us white? They are demanding money, money money and more money and who would be a better candidate for paying than those guys who lost the war?
Actually our chancellor has caved in to most of their demands. We are killing our own budget to try to help others (and I say to try because I don't think that Greece can actually be saved...). So where is that panzer like power you are speaking of?:hmm2:

I also know a few nations "cooked the books" to seem favorable for membership.

I am not holding Germany 100% responsible for it, they are trying to fix it.

Not nice being the big kid on the block? You get blamed for doing, and get blamed for doing nothing.

Welcome to what America go through.:D

STEED

09-23-12, 11:43 AM

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

40% and falling going to Europe.

70% and rising Europe to the UK.

The big lie Europe needs us! Tosh, we need Europe as we don't make stuff any more. Most of our Heavy to Medium Industry was smashed by you know who, and as this is not that thread I shall stop there. :03:

Oberon

09-23-12, 11:53 AM

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

It could be done, but at the moment with the global economic outlook so low it could be hard to find the right trading partners. Plus you've got the fact that we are right next door to Europe so transportation costs are relatively low, particularly if you use things like the Tunnel, which as fuel costs rise it is an important thing to consider.
However, at the same time you have to factor in trade tariffs, I'd wager that a few nations will be putting them up in an effort to stimulate internal growth to try and get companies selling country x goods to country x rather than country y.
Could the EU write off so much trade? In the short term perhaps not, in the long term though I'm sure they would adapt, they did fine before we joined them after all...but I'm not so sure we could afford to shun our closest trading partners in an era when money is tight.

I feel sorry for Greece, it's in a no-win situation. Samaras wants, no, needs the Greek bailout, however he also needs to try and keep himself in office and not have the Greek government overthrown in a 'Greek spring' or a military coup. So he's keeping all the plates spinning by a mixture of promises, lies and prayers, just like any other politician in the world, however the problems is that he's spinning lead plates on a molecule thin stick of rice paper, and that's not going to last forever.
If you think there's a bad immigration problem now in Europe, just wait until Greece gets kicked out of the Euro, can you say Exodus? Sure, there'll be tighter border controls, but that's not going to stop the illegals, and you know that once they're in the system, they don't come out of the system again.

It's easy to paint the Greeks, the Spanish, the Italians, the Portuguese, and anyone else who is getting into economic difficulties in Europe as lazy and incompetent, and deserving of their own fate. I'm sure that will be of great comfort to those without medicine and those who are struggling to exist. If that helps you get by, then by all means, get your brush out and paint those stereotypes, and they'll be sure to paint the Nazi stereotype in return and we can all butt heads and shout at each other as the boat sinks underneath us.

The fact is, even if half of the EU leaves it, the other half are still going to be stuck in a holed boat without a paddle, trying to keep a doomed idea afloat. It's easy to point fingers, it's harder to find a solution that will not result in chaos. I don't envy any EU politician right now, it must be a bit like trying to organise something politically or religiously motivated on GT... :O:

Oberon

09-23-12, 11:55 AM

Most of our Heavy to Medium Industry was smashed by you know who, and as this is not that thread I shall stop there. :03:

Bingo, and then she had the nerve to go gunboat in hand to the EU and demand more concessions. Still, she had gall, that much I shall say, and again, I shall leave that there because this is the wrong thread for that.

Certainly though, we need to reinvest in our industry, both Heavy, Medium and Farming, to create jobs, to create food, to create materials to build growth. However, so long as it is cheaper to just buy stuff in from abroad, that is exactly what will keep happening, because like electricity, companies will always travel the path of least resistance/expenses.

STEED

09-23-12, 12:06 PM

we need to reinvest in our industry, both Heavy, Medium and Farming, to create jobs, to create food, to create materials to build growth.

Agreed but it will never happen. Capitalism is now dying and corporatism wants to turn back the clock by bringing back slavery and this ties in nicely with the fact the world's oil has almost peaked. I hate to live on this planet in 50 years time, if that.

mapuc

09-23-12, 01:17 PM

Can tell you that it's not only the german that's angry about throwing their money into a bottomless greece.

Even the danes and we the swedes are angry.

Markus

Skybird

09-23-12, 01:23 PM

Global economics is a total mess.

First, we need to go back to local supply. Farms shall not farm what the global market needs, and certainly they shall not prei8uce plants to make fuel of themn. They must go back to serving local demand of tghe near region: producing the kind of goods that the locals buy. Noit shuffling them around countries, nations, continents.

Industry: small is beautiful. Not selling TVs from Phillips in America, American VBs in Asia, and Asian TVs in Europe. But Asian TVs in Asia, European TVs ins Europe, and American TVs in America.

We need to cut - massively - the number of salesmen in the middle.

International trade should be limited to trading goods and resources that the other indeed does not have and cannot produce. I give you what you do not have, and you give me what I cannot produce myself.

Back to the regions. Local autarcy as far as possible.

Big business and stockmarkets certainly wants to see me dead for saying this. Probably as much as I want to see them dead.

Stockmarkets should be prohibited. Banks should be limiteds to not exceed certain sizes. They must be monitored by local communities within whose borders they should be limited to operate. Betting on food and resources should be put under draconic penalty. Trading debts and trading currencies should be prohibited.

Away from supra-national industry, back to regional production for local demand.

Saves also all energy and emissions for headlessly shuttling biblical amounts of goods around the globe.

Just for a start. For capitalist trade empires, this is a nightmare, of course, and for followers of the unlimited growth doctrine and the gospel of predatory capitalism, it is a nightmare as well. Politicians founding their careers on solving problems that without them would not even exist, it is no welcomed vision of the world as well.

Skybird

09-23-12, 01:40 PM

It's easy to paint the Greeks, the Spanish, the Italians, the Portuguese, and anyone else who is getting into economic difficulties in Europe as lazy and incompetent, and deserving of their own fate. I'm sure that will be of great comfort to those without medicine and those who are struggling to exist. If that helps you get by, then by all means, get your brush out and paint those stereotypes, and they'll be sure to paint the Nazi stereotype in return and we can all butt heads and shout at each other as the boat sinks underneath us.

Just for the record, while I have voiced heavy criticism repeatedly for sure - that simplistic I never have painted it, in fact have tried to see it more differentiated.

Just when my country, which I criticise myself on many opportunities, time and again gets attacked while loosing dozens and hundreds of billions at the cost of the younger Germans' future and their pensions when being old, while other nations try to establish a status of unlimited spending frenzies, betray treaties they swore to, and cheat on the eU and on othe rnations, and Germany always expected to pay for it, and we then get called Nazis and conquerors if some of us with silent voice dare to object to this madness - then I am after this long time a little bit pissed to much as if I let the one doing like this off the hook so easily.

Those benefitting from our payments are very quick in demanding more solidarity, and more solidarity, and then even more solidarity. But what is with the solidarity of those running mismanagement, cheating on the community, and getting fed like parasites at the cost of others who risk their own future over that - where is the solidarity with Europe in their behavior???

Have you ever noticed that the more risks Germany takes, the more payments it agrees to, and the more it gives to others (and betrays its own youth by doing so), the more Germany gets attacked, gets offended and is confronted by demands by doing even more, and more, and then more?

I'm sick of it, from head to toes. The only thing that sickens me even more is that Germans let the German mafia in the Bundestag do like this, instead of crowding the streets, storming the parliament and lining these liars and traitors up the wall for the treachery they commit.

Oberon

09-23-12, 02:21 PM

For what it's worth Sky, I completely agree with you in the need to go back to back to basics, although perhaps not quite as far as local markets selling only to local towns, but certainly trade within nations needs to be strengthened at the cost of trade between nations. Not just because of financial reasons but because of security reasons, if anything were to affect our ability to import items, just how many countries have a back-up supply of food? Since the end of the Cold War, how many stockpiles of food are kept?
Nothing, nada, zilch, everything is ordered Just In Time, food, clothing, materials, even electricity in some cases. There are no fail-safes and no back ups. It would be a disaster.

Your frustration is understandable, as is that of many Germans, to see their government poring billions of dollars into a seemingly bottomless pit, and to have no gratitude for that. Unfortunately it's a situation which has embittered both sides and has made people in both nations very angry with each other, but equally there are many in both nations which are doing their best to help.
There was a good bit on Panorama by Jon Humphries on the situation in Greece which aired a few months back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glOePgjJSI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MhJGeRCwBg

You can see both sides of the story there, those who want to get Greece back on track, who recognise what went wrong, and those who just don't want to face the facts.

What worries me, is the rise of extremism under such circumstances, not just because of race, but also because of situations, the rich creating gated communities for the poor. You can already see things like this happening with the poorer people no longer able to live in the cities where the jobs are, being pushed out by the rich into the far suburbs and slummy-like estates were crime and antisocial behaviour is rife. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen and there is an inbuilt anger against...everything...in young people which was shown last year in the UK riots, so much hatred, and so much anger...it has to vent somewhere, in fear against race, anger against the economic divide, and the politicians will struggle to control it, and will have to ride with it, or...more likely...exploit it for their own benefit.

Dan D

09-27-12, 05:01 AM

@Chaps

The Polish foreign minister Sikorski has "blasted British Euroscepticism" in an interesting speech he held to an English audience lately: http://www.londyn.polemb.net/files/pdf/The%20Blenheim%20Palace%20Speech-ENG.pdf

Summed up here, http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/09/poland-and-britain:
"Poland wants Britain in Europe as a counterweight to the EU's dirigiste, heavy-regulating countries and to balance German weight and Russian proximity. Despite the betrayals of the past (Yalta, Katyn) it cherishes Britain's support for Poland's freedom in recent years. But if Britain marginalises itself, Poland will have to make the best of Europe as it is, and as it is shaping up to be. I was once at dinner with Mr Sikorski and a leading British Tory who chided him over Poland's impending membership of the EU (it was 2001). "Why is Poland of all countries selling out to Brussels?" said the Tory. "Do you think we should rely on Britain, like we did in 1939?" came the crisp response.":o

Quote from speech with regard to Germany:
"More importantly, we believe the Eurozone will survive, because it is its members interest for it to survive. The leaders of Europe will step up operational integration at the European level. The new institutional arrangements within the EU will be different. But eventually they’ll be strong. They'll work because Europe’s leaders want them to work. And be careful what you read in your tabloids: No country has benefitted more from the single currency than Germany."

joea

09-29-12, 04:05 AM

No, Joea, I completely leave you in the rain over this.

I thought you'd answer something like this. You understand nothing. Goodbye.

joea

09-29-12, 04:06 AM

Catfish

09-29-12, 05:55 AM

Germany and France vow to strengthen lies

Sorry, i seem to have read that wrong .. but then, have i ?

Skybird

09-29-12, 06:08 AM

France vows to strengthen German transfers. :03:

France is a patient itself already.

Ah, and British budget deficits exceed 7% of national GDP. A new record over there. It seems switching on the money printers so far did not work, eh? But there is a globalized effect nevertheless. Flooding the market always has a devaluation effect. Thing sin strong supply and low demand are cheap, things in low supply and high demand are precious. British bonds currently are not one of the latter.

Maybe the Fed has more success with trying more of what it already has tried since years: printing money. :up:

It's astounding - time is fleeting,
madness takes it's toll!

Jimbuna

09-29-12, 11:31 AM

Just print more money (Euros) and hang the consequences.....France and Germany will pick up the slack eventually...they're good at that :)

Gerald

09-29-12, 03:04 PM

I am glad not to have €.

Jimbuna

09-29-12, 03:49 PM

Well not being a British national the chances are you probably would.

Good luck when it becomes worthless.

Gerald

09-29-12, 03:55 PM

We have the Swedish krona, and it is strong presently, but to visit EU countries that have the coin's is pretty cheap.

Jimbuna

09-29-12, 05:45 PM

Krona?

Isn't that like Anchor a New Zealand butter/margarine :)

Gerald

09-29-12, 06:51 PM

Krona?

Isn't that like Anchor a New Zealand butter/margarine :) Ha,ha

http://imageshack.us/a/img198/363/ny1kronaframhigh.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/ny1kronaframhigh.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img94/3954/krona.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/krona.jpg/)

Skybird

09-29-12, 07:14 PM

Just print more money (Euros) and hang the consequences.....France and Germany will pick up the slack eventually...they're good at that :)
Recently looked at France's budget numbers, debt and state of economy industry? Cars? They are more dead than alive themselves.

Debts are 90% of GDP. The state's spendings are the second-highest in the Eurozone. Car industry is in serious trouble, hidden bailout programs payed to them did not ignite. Economy is in a recession. Since years it has been policy of French governments to demand more German "solidarity" - meaning that Germany should pay more money for them. I tell you, with a friend like this, you do not need enemies anymore. I used to believe in this thing called German-French friendship until some time ago. But since years I realised that it is just an act, a fake, a strawman'S argument. It may be true on private contact levels between people, yes. But on the economic and financial and political levels - a lie.

Germany has no friends in Europe,m tnhat simple it is. For Germans that is a hard thing to swallow, since they were used to pay for friendship after WWII and in return being liked and loved by everybody. What the others loved and liked, was not the Germaness in Germany, but the money. And that is the tough pill to swallow - Our politicians completely fail in realising this. But we can see it since years: where we oppose paying even more for others, the others turn hostile, mock us, attack us, offend us.

Germany is an infinite money cheat, many think. A card blanche for spending. A mailbox where to store bills.

Jimbuna

09-30-12, 05:58 AM

Recently looked at France's budget numbers, debt and state of economy industry? Cars? They are more dead than alive themselves.

Debts are 90% of GDP. The state's spendings are the second-highest in the Eurozone. Car industry is in serious trouble, hidden bailout programs payed to them did not ignite. Economy is in a recession. Since years it has been policy of French governments to demand more German "solidarity" - meaning that Germany should pay more money for them. I tell you, with a friend like this, you do not need enemies anymore. I used to believe in this thing called German-French friendship until some time ago. But since years I realised that it is just an act, a fake, a strawman'S argument. It may be true on private contact levels between people, yes. But on the economic and financial and political levels - a lie.

Germany has no friends in Europe,m tnhat simple it is. For Germans that is a hard thing to swallow, since they were used to pay for friendship after WWII and in return being liked and loved by everybody. What the others loved and liked, was not the Germaness in Germany, but the money. And that is the tough pill to swallow - Our politicians completely fail in realising this. But we can see it since years: where we oppose paying even more for others, the others turn hostile, mock us, attack us, offend us.

Germany is an infinite money cheat, many think. A card blanche for spending. A mailbox where to store bills.

I certainly agree with you where France is concerned...all the warning signs are there and when they go 'pop' everyone will act as if it's a big suprise.

They will eventually pay a high price for trying to be one of the big players in Europe.