Romney: Palestinians do not want peace

[Gerald]

A video clip emerges showing the Republican US presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, saying that Palestinians have no interest in peace with Israel.


A secret recording of US Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney has been released in which he appears to condemn millions of Americans who cannot provide for themselves.

The recording, made in May at a Florida fund raising dinner, was released on the internet by the Mother Jones website which has a liberal perspective on US politics.

After it became public Mr Romney organised a press briefing in which he described his remarks as "inelegant" but he did not retract the points he had made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19634262

http://youtu.be/ukhFBJgrZxM

Note: 18 September 2012 Last updated at 14:08 GMT

[Takeda Shingen]

Uh, where's the part about the Palestinians? He never mentions them.

[Gerald]

:hmmm: bad link?

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, it's not in the video, the article, or the expanded article that it links to.

[mookiemookie]

According to the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, about 46% of Americans paid no income tax in 2011. However, nearly two-thirds of households that don't pay income tax pay payroll taxes. Of the people who don't pay income or payroll taxes, more than half are elderly. (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2012/09/18/romney-47-percent-fallout/70000561/1#.UFiRTLKPUud)

Mr. Romney would do better than to disparage one of his larger voting blocs if he wants to have a chance in this race.

[Gerald]

The lack of relevant things and it is not true in the context,

http://youtu.be/ukhFBJgrZxM

[Takeda Shingen]

There you go. Without that, your headline and your article don't match.

[Gerald]

There you go. Without that, your headline and your article don't match. :salute:

[Madox58]

Are there any instructions as to how to get into the 47% that don't pay taxes?
:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Are there any instructions as to how to get into the 47% that don't pay taxes?
:hmmm:

Retire and move to Mexico :)

[Armistead]

Instead of giving the Jews Palestine, we should've split a piece of Germany. The Christian concept that the Jews are some special people of God, that if you go against them, God will curse your nation, causes a bias in the West towards the situation.

[Madox58]

Retire and move to Mexico :)
May as well.
All the poeple down there are moving up here so it should be pretty empty by now.
:hmmm:

[Penguin]

Ahhh, good ole dualistic worldview. Gotta love Romney! That's exactly what the US and everyone needs: easy answers to complex questions. :yeah:

Are there any instructions as to how to get into the 47% that don't pay taxes?
:hmmm:

Just ask Mitt - he knows some pretty good loopholes to avoid being taxed...

I believe you will find not more than a handfull Americans who don't pay taxes: you gotta be self-sufficient, but own no property, no car. You have to buy everything from the black market or acquire anything through bartering. Not even sure about the latter: in Germany "non-cash benefits" also get taxed - the friendly IRS probably has a similar law in their drawer.

[Jimbuna]

May as well.
All the poeple down there are moving up here so it should be pretty empty by now.
:hmmm:


Just been wondering, are lottery wins taxable over in the US?

[Armistead]

I have a friend that moved to Mexico in 07. He was a commerical realtor and web designer. When the economy went, so did his business, etc. His model wife left, lost everything. I think the IRS may have been after him as well. He lives very well in Mexico off $1,200 a month. He finally started a website for Americans listing all the Brothels in Mexico, names of good call girls, etc...I think now he is a pimp so to speak....and getting rich.

[August]

Just ask Mitt - he knows some pretty good loopholes to avoid being taxed...

I believe you will find not more than a handfull Americans who don't pay taxes: you gotta be self-sufficient, but own no property, no car. You have to buy everything from the black market or acquire anything through bartering. Not even sure about the latter: in Germany "non-cash benefits" also get taxed - the friendly IRS probably has a similar law in their drawer.

I believe he was talking about income taxes.

[Skybird]

Instead of giving the Jews Palestine, we should've split a piece of Germany. The Christian concept that the Jews are some special people of God, that if you go against them, God will curse your nation, causes a bias in the West towards the situation.
Öh - pardon...? The Christian concept of Jews was for centuries that the Jews are traitors to God, and scum of the Earth for having betrayed and murdered Jesus. Belittling them and cursing them was papal policy and found entrance into Catholic lithurgy and rite. There were prayers held to ask God to lead them back onto the path of true belief.

The belief that God will curse those opposing the Jews, is a Jewish belief, based on the imagined power of their Thora which they used to carry around when going to another war. And they went into many wars in the past 3000 years.

That the Jews see themselves as the special people being closest to their god, is not surprising. Every theistic religion makes the same claim about itself.

[Madox58]

I believe he was talking about income taxes.
I believe he was distracted by a string hanging from a rear view mirror.
:o
:har:

[Armistead]

Öh - pardon...? The Christian concept of Jews was for centuries that the Jews are traitors to God, and scum of the Earth for having betrayed and murdered Jesus. Belittling them and cursing them was papal policy and found entrance into Catholic lithurgy and rite. There were prayers held to ask God to lead them back onto the path of true belief.

The belief that God will curse those opposing the Jews, is a Jewish belief, based on the imagined power of their Thora which they used to carry around when going to another war. And they went into many wars in the past 3000 years.

That the Jews see themselves as the special people being closest to their god, is not surprising. Every theistic religion makes the same claim about itself.

Yes, The Catholic movement for centuries hated the Jews. I'm referring to the Protestant movement the last 50 years or so. Surely you know the majority of the Christian right feel America should give the Jews special favor as the children of God.

[Penguin]

I believe he was talking about income taxes.

Romeney did, but not Privateer. :03:

What I find the most offensive about Romney's way of thought, is that there is an agreement among the US society to give prisoners shelter, food and medical attention. However if they are a law-abiding, they are suddenly not entitled to this anymore? :88) A very strange way of thinking.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just been wondering, are lottery wins taxable over in the US?

Yes, the lottery winning is considered a capital gain and taxed. Some casinos take the tax out of the winnings when you cash out and leave.

[Madox58]

Romeney did, but not Privateer. :03:




I just want to know who and where are the 47% who don't pay taxes???
:hmmm:

Now I'm not a smart politician and don't travel that circle.........
But I ain't met no one what don't pay taxes to Uncle Sam!
That's what us 'low life' talk about most.
Payin' taxes and gettin our butts handed to us.
:nope:

So Mitt? Who's the 47% bitch?

[Tribesman]

Retire and move to Mexico
Leaving the country doesn't really work for most Americans when it comes to tax
.
It is clear who Romney is talking about, those couple of hundred on over $77 million a year who didn't actually have any income to tax, those 20,000 on over $200k who somehow failed to get any income, oh and some pensioners to make up the bulk of the rest...bloody leaches the lot of them you can be sure they are gonna be voting team D which is why Romney doesn't care about those people.

It amazes me how such a plank can manage to get through the primaries.
Then again there was a lot of crazy people both standing and voting.

[Madox58]

Couple hundred and 20,000 don't equal 47%
so the pensioners make up the bulk of the 47%?

What kind of math or what kind of madness figured this out?
:hmmm:

Oh, wait........... Some idiot running for office had one of his flunkies come up with numbers that scare people.

MITT!! Watch the string closely!! See how it sways in the window?
Dumb arse!
:nope:

[August]

Romeney did, but not Privateer. :03:

What I find the most offensive about Romney's way of thought, is that there is an agreement among the US society to give prisoners shelter, food and medical attention. However if they are a law-abiding, they are suddenly not entitled to this anymore? :88) A very strange way of thinking.

No stranger than your idea that our nation could somehow pay for over 300 million peoples food, shelter and medical attention.

I mean if we can i'm wasting my time going to work every day...

[Skybird]

Yes, The Catholic movement for centuries hated the Jews. I'm referring to the Protestant movement the last 50 years or so. Surely you know the majority of the Christian right feel America should give the Jews special favor as the children of God.
Well,the sentiment over here is pretty much anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian and pro-Islam/Arabia, so no, I do not really know what you mean. Or do you mean the American Christian right? I then would say I also am not really in knowledge about their real attitude towards Israel - as a religiously motivated factor - as well. In general, the Western attitude in my view is pretty much turning against Israel, since many years, and deep-rooting antisemitism never has gone away in all of Europe anyway. It was well hidden only.

[Jimbuna]

Yes, the lottery winning is considered a capital gain and taxed. Some casinos take the tax out of the winnings when you cash out and leave.

That's a bit tough...here in the UK the winnings are tax free but once you take them out of a current account and make investments you pay tax on the interest.

Although I don't suppose that would be a major concern to someone who has just come into a mega sum of money.

[AVGWarhawk]

That's a bit tough...here in the UK the winnings are tax free but once you take them out of a current account and make investments you pay tax on the interest.

Although I don't suppose that would be a major concern to someone who has just come into a mega sum of money.

I had a friend that won quite a bit. When he cashed in the state tax was figured on the spot and taken. Federal tax depends on the person making the claim at tax time. April 16th each year. You can imagine that does not happen for the small time winner. The mega-million winners are obviously scrutinized.

[Jimbuna]

I had a friend that won quite a bit. When he cashed in the state tax was figured on the spot and taken. Federal tax depends on the person making the claim at tax time. April 16th each year. You can imagine that does not happen for the small time winner. The mega-million winners are obviously scrutinized.

I doubt that'll ever happen to me then :)

[vienna]

That's a bit tough...here in the UK the winnings are tax free but once you take them out of a current account and make investments you pay tax on the interest.

Although I don't suppose that would be a major concern to someone who has just come into a mega sum of money.

Actually, I believe there is a misunderstanding about lottery winnings. The OP about lotteries was responded to by a situation regarding a "casino". If the original question was about the various US single state and/or multi-state lotteries (MegaMilions, PowerBall, etc.), the winnings are usually untaxed by the states sponsoring the respective lotteries, e.g., if you win a main prize in the MegaMillions lottery, the particpating states do not assess tax on the winnings. This is done to encourage participation in the lottery. However, if you win a main prize, the payout is over a period spanning several years (varying from 25-30 years, depending on the states), as sort of an annuity. If a winner opts for a total cash payout, the winings are decreased by approximately a quarter to a third of the total. The reasoning for this is that the lottery would be out the potential interset to be earned on the principal amount if you had elected to have the winnings paid out over many years...

In all cases, however, the US federal taxes apply, so even if the states don't dun you, the IRS will...

...

[MH]

Instead of giving the Jews Palestine, we should've split a piece of Germany. The Christian concept that the Jews are some special people of God, that if you go against them, God will curse your nation, causes a bias in the West towards the situation.

Great thanx....and lolz

[Stealhead]

Are there any instructions as to how to get into the 47% that don't pay taxes?
:hmmm:

It is so easy it is sad these are the ones that get all the cheese.Simply get yourself a lawyer who will have a doctor either completely create or greatly exaggerate an illness to a level that makes you eligible for the type of benefits that you seek.Most of the time the lawyer wins the case because it is their bread and butter they know what to say how to game so that you win.There are law firms all over the US that specialize in this.

I have also heard (this may not be true) that if you have things like ADD ADHD you can claim that this keeps you from working making you disabled.This is funny to me because I have ADD and take no drugs I just deal with it I honestly think that it makes me a better worker because I am focused on getting the job done and keeping myself busy yet some people use it as an excuse not to work.

It must be a mentality that is common because when I was separating from the military a VA rep told me that I simply had to list three or four times that I ever went to a clinic for a non scheduled reason(so not for the annual) and they could possibly give me 10% disability I said that I do not need 10% disability for things that have no long term effect on my health.

The others that is probably lack of education lack of any learned work ethic so they have no desire to improve themselves.

Or the smallest number become ultra wealthy.

[mookiemookie]

It is so easy it is sad these are the ones that get all the cheese.Simply get yourself a lawyer who will have a doctor either completely create or greatly exaggerate an illness to a level that makes you eligible for the type of benefits that you seek.Most of the time the lawyer wins the case because it is their bread and butter they know what to say how to game so that you win.There are law firms all over the US that specialize in this.

I have also heard (this may not be true) that if you have things like ADD ADHD you can claim that this keeps you from working making you disabled.This is funny to me because I have ADD and take no drugs I just deal with it I honestly think that it makes me a better worker because I am focused on getting the job done and keeping myself busy yet some people use it as an excuse not to work.

It must be a mentality that is common because when I was separating from the military a VA rep told me that I simply had to list three or four times that I ever went to a clinic for a non scheduled reason(so not for the annual) and they could possibly give me 10% disability I said that I do not need 10% disability for things that have no long term effect on my health.

The others that is probably lack of education lack of any learned work ethic so they have no desire to improve themselves.

Or the smallest number become ultra wealthy.

Not so fast. Before we start making assumptions, lets look at demographics.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/the-47-who-they-are-where-they-live-how-they-vote-and-why-they-matter/262506/

In 2011, 47% of Americans paid no federal income taxes. Within that group, two-thirds still pay payroll taxes. The rest are almost all either (a) old and retired folks collecting Social Security or (b) households earning less than $20,000. Overall, four out of five households not owing federal income tax earn less than $30,000, according to the Tax Policy Center.


Here's another, slightly wonkier, way to think about the 47%. Divide the group into two halves. The first half is made tax-free by credits and exemptions, the vast majority of which go to senior citizens and children of the working poor. The half that you're left with is so poor, they wouldn't owe federal income taxes even if there were zero tax expenditures.

So if you want to pin this on non-elderly people able to work but laying around with no job at all and soaking up the government benefits, you're really looking at around 8% of the population.

[AVGWarhawk]

This 47%, are these the folks that cling to guns and religion? :hmmm:

[Penguin]

No stranger than your idea that our nation could somehow pay for over 300 million peoples food, shelter and medical attention.

It's not strange to someone who lives in a union, consisting of 500 million people, which does this.
and: you guys over there do it, too - see my next reply:

I mean if we can i'm wasting my time going to work every day...

My guess is that you want a better life quality than buying your meals from food stamps, living in a project or being forced to go to the ER for medical care.
All these are things that are paid/subsided by tax money. I am not talking about quality or quantity, that's a whole other topic worth discussing.

I'm talking about that basic human needs that should be covered. To me, education is also one of those. Covering the basic needs, that would really mean to level the playing field. If people want better food than ramen, then they should get their asses up and do something about.

I also think that a social net that's worthy of its name, would significantly reduce petty crime and all the costs that are associated with it.

[August]

It's not strange to someone who lives in a union, consisting of 500 million people, which does this.
and: you guys over there do it, too - see my next reply:

You said everyone should have a right to those things. I'm saying that no nation or union could ever afford to give those things to everyone. As for education that is already paid for. I know because I have to pay for it through my property taxes. I suppose you want me to pay for college too?

[Platapus]

I wonder what percentage of companies don't pay taxes?

[CaptainHaplo]

So Mitt? Who's the 47% *****?

Language, mate. You can disagree, but watch the language.

Couple hundred and 20,000 don't equal 47%
so the pensioners make up the bulk of the 47%?

What kind of math or what kind of madness figured this out?
:hmmm:

Oh, wait........... Some idiot running for office had one of his flunkies come up with numbers that scare people.

MITT!! Watch the string closely!! See how it sways in the window?
Dumb arse!
:nope:

People pay all different kinds of taxes.... But specifically regarding income taxes - you have people who have deductions or credits that are larger than their tax liability. Childcare credit, Earned Income Credit, etc - can add up to a few thousand dollars at least. Now, if a couple make 30k a year and has 3 kids and spends $1500 in child care a year, guess what - they not only don't owe taxes - they get money BACK over and above what they put in. In fact - they could do the W2's so that there is NO deduction for income taxes and they STILL would get a "refund" at the end of the year.

Roughly 42% of taxfilers in 2011 fell into the above type situation - where their deductions and credits were equal to, or higher than - their tax liability. Thus, they (net) paid nothing or got a refund, thus making money off the tax system. This doesn't count the additiona' "freeloaders" that make up a much smaller segment - but are somewhere between 5%-8% as addressed above.

So the 47% is not just some "made up" number. Check the IRS data....

There is no reason to get defensive.

[Tribesman]

Oh, wait........... Some idiot running for office had one of his flunkies come up with numbers that scare people.

The numbers are real, or close enough its 46.4%.
The story about them is rubbish though, its not new rubbish as several people on here have trotted out the same meaningless line during the past year, often again and again even though it is meaningless.
I suppose its the same as with any scare story, you get a "oh my gosh" which if followed by thought turns into "oh so thats it" which then goes to "ain't he a prat for trotting out that rubbish".
Though of course unless the process goes into the "thought" stage it can get stuck in the "OMG" phase which is why politicians love to try the rubbish because they know a lot of people don't bother to think.

[AVGWarhawk]

I wonder what percentage of companies don't pay taxes?

None. Non-profit organizations do not pay taxes.

[soopaman2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvLeQbwuKys&feature=player_embedded
Hmm, lol.

Yes it barely set off my satire radar.

[mookiemookie]

I wonder what percentage of companies don't pay taxes?

You have to be careful with statistics about this. If you look at something that says "X number of corporations didn't pay income tax" be careful that it doesn't include S corps, as they never pay income tax, by definition. The tax liability for the profits made by S corps flow through to and are divided amongst the shareholders to be reported on their individual tax returns.

This is a sampling, but 26 profitable Fortune 500 companies paid no taxes or actually got a rebate every year since 2008:
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/notax2012.pdf

And of course any company that loses money can carry those losses forward to be deducted from profits made in any of the next seven years. And those losses are transferable/saleable to another company in the case of bankruptcy, too.

I know more about this stuff than I care to, lol.

[Skybird]

I wonder what percentage of companies don't pay taxes?
We have had a thread on that some years ago, a US senator I think illustrating how many of the big players do not pay at all any net taxes - but even have net beenmfits from the state/tax payers.

Last year, there was this news:

http://thenewpolitical.com/2011/04/04/corporate-tax-evasion/

This is not by rando m chan ce. Loopholes are wanted, like backdoors in Microisoft software. They are made sure for by lobbyism the industry invests into, and due to the interest of the vultures forming this political system, which is rotten from skin to bones. It's all plutocracy. Plus that big business is globalised, and international palyers now. It doe snot know national loyalties anymore. It's playground is the world, not just one country. The money evades in a 24 hours-cycle, revolving around the Earth in its race to escape being taxed.

And banks - play roulette already again as if never anything has happened, while having been bailed out just short time ago with billions. Nobody has learned anything. Political gangster nevertheless have the nerve to call that "economical recovering".

Like in Berlin, you have wonderful wide and long straight alleys in Washington. Like for Berlin I strongly recommend to prettify the lamppost alongside them by hanging politicians and lobbyists and their clever smart lawyers onto them. That would be a sight of great hope and renewal. When we run out of decoration, we can ask Wall Street and Frankfurt and Brussel for more any time. It seems it is in very rich supply.

:down:

[August]

I strongly recommend to prettify the lamppost alongside them by hanging politicians and lobbyists and their clever smart lawyers onto them. That would be a sight of great hope and renewal. When we run out of decoration, we can ask Wall Street and Frankfurt and Brussel for more any time. It seems it is in very rich supply.

:down:

Talking about killing people again Sky? Why would we ever want to do that? So people like you can replace them as our new leaders?

[AVGWarhawk]

You have to be careful with statistics about this. If you look at something that says "X number of corporations didn't pay income tax" be careful that it doesn't include S corps, as they never pay income tax, by definition. The tax liability for the profits made by S corps flow through to and are divided amongst the shareholders to be reported on their individual tax returns.

This is a sampling, but 26 profitable Fortune 500 companies paid no taxes or actually got a rebate every year since 2008:
http://www.ctj.org/pdf/notax2012.pdf

And of course any company that loses money can carry those losses forward to be deducted from profits made in any of the next seven years. And those losses are transferable/saleable to another company in the case of bankruptcy, too.

I know more about this stuff than I care to, lol.

Deferred taxes.

[soopaman2]

Talking about killing people again Sky? Why would we ever want to do that? So people like you can replace them as our new leaders?

I can kinda get skybirds animosity, after all it is not like I lack any extreme moments on here. Sometimes you can just get so angry about some of the stuff that goes on.

Though I will commend you on your level headedness, and logical common sense.

We may not have it the best, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

For instance, quite a few times I critisized our policies, and our Congress, and our president, even suggested only a revolution could fix it.

Say We were in China, and I said the same thing. Where would I be?

Not here, in my home, talking to you guys on this forum.

Sure I trash Mitt, but if he were to win, I would respect him as my president. We may be flawed, and have our problems, but nobody (IMHO) has it better than us.

Mitt should have also stated the Israelis are not interested in peace either, but catering to the Jewish voter is important.

[nikimcbee]

Sure I trash Mitt, but if he were to win, I would respect him as my president. We may be flawed, and have our problems, but nobody (IMHO) has it better than us.

Mitt should have also stated the Israelis are not interested in peace either, but catering to the Jewish voter is important.

Part of me says, this is just election year saber-rattling.:dead: I'm just waiting for North Korea to show up and threaten something.

[soopaman2]

Part of me says, this is just election year saber-rattling.:dead: I'm just waiting for North Korea to show up and threaten something.

Yeah they will show up soon, then we send them food, and they shut up, just like all the other times.:03:

Edit: It would be an interesting way for them to undermine Pres. Obama, but seeing how big a warhawk Romney is, even fatboy Kim wouldn't do that. He likes Mr. Passive and predictable more.

[Takeda Shingen]

It would be an interesting way for them to undermine Obama

It's not an interesting way, it is the way that they are doing it. Netanyahu's game has long been to try and get the US to preempt Iran. Obama has been unwilling to do this, so the Israeli government is now not so subtle about Romney support in hopes that they will find him more willing in that respect. This isn't the first time that Israel has tried to manipulate the US into action either, which is exactly why I hold a particularly unfavorable view of that nation.

[August]

I can kinda get skybirds animosity, after all it is not like I lack any extreme moments on here. Sometimes you can just get so angry about some of the stuff that goes on.

I see what you're saying but a lot of folks jumped all over 1480 for making statements that were a heckuva lot more vague whereas Skybird seems to make a habit of demanding bloodshed.

Though I will commend you on your level headedness, and logical common sense.

Flattery will get you everywhere... :)

We may not have it the best, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

For instance, quite a few times I critisized our policies, and our Congress, and our president, even suggested only a revolution could fix it.

Say We were in China, and I said the same thing. Where would I be?

Not here, in my home, talking to you guys on this forum.

Sure I trash Mitt, but if he were to win, I would respect him as my president. We may be flawed, and have our problems, but nobody (IMHO) has it better than us.

That was well said.

I think what foreigners like Sky have a hard time understanding is that it's always been this way in America and whatever our flaws we've made it work for a couple of centuries now. It's a track record that few can compete with.

[soopaman2]

It's not an interesting way, it is the way that they are doing it. Netanyahu's game has long been to try and get the US to preempt Iran. Obama has been unwilling to do this, so the Israeli government is now not so subtle about Romney support in hopes that they will find him more willing in that respect. This isn't the first time that Israel has tried to manipulate the US into action either, which is exactly why I hold a particularly unfavorable view of that nation.


I feel so unintentionally like a bigot when I trash Israel. (But do so anyways, I never really valued my reputation:O:)

I am glad I am not the only one to see these things. :salute:

[mookiemookie]

I feel so unintentionally like a bigot when I trash Israel. (But do so anyways, I never really valued my reputation:O:)

There are people who willfully conflate the ideas of criticizing Israel's actions and anti-semitism. It's important to realize that no country is above criticism.

[Tribesman]

Isn't it funny that Romney got everything so backwards with those two attempts.
The American Jewish vote is pretty solidly team D and the standing of the current Israeli regime is on the slide with that demographic, and the leading States with people who don't pay federal income tax are pretty solidly team R.
So he "appealed" to people who don't support him by advertising something they don't like and slagged people who do support him by caling them leeches.
Is it a cunning plan to avoid getting elected?

None. Non-profit organizations do not pay taxes.
Some non profits do not pay some taxes.
Some none profits do not pay income tax.
Some non proits have to pay federal income tax(UB).
Its taxes isn't it, terms and conditions always apply

Like for Berlin I strongly recommend to prettify the lamppost alongside them by hanging politicians and lobbyists and their clever smart lawyers onto them.
Sound like Skybird has shifted from being Taliban to being even crazier:doh:

[Skybird]

Talking about killing people again Sky? Why would we ever want to do that? So people like you can replace them as our new leaders?

Why was the French revolution so bloody?

Because peacefully they would not have gotten rid of the aristocratic rotten elite tyranning them.

You cannot vote today's plutocracy out of office. Globalised big business also has left democratric checks&balances behind, and must no longer plays by the rules of laws undersotod and designed by the people. The justice system got hijacked. We live in post-democratic times already. Only few have noticed so far. And most of who did, shy away from what that means.

You are paying tribute and respect to principles that played a role in the past. You have fallen out of the present. By what the US were founded on, as a "philosophical fundament" and principles, I agree with that very much and like it. But I cannot bring the modern present, the relaity of the US today, into congruency with tese ideals. The state as is, and how it was meant a long time ago, are lightyears apart.

The fundament of your nation got hijacked by corrupt, small elites. You deny it. To me you are standing attention to a dead monument only.

This hijacking has taken place with practically all nations in the Westm, it seems to me. I do not accept a single nation in the West being called "democratic" anymore.

Read my sig, and take note of the author. Eisenhower was not the first issuing a warning.

[Tribesman]

Why was the French revolution so bloody?

Because peacefully they would not have gotten rid of the aristocratic rotten elite tyranning them.

Most people would say the revolution was only so bloody after they had already got rid of the rotten elite from power and the revolutionaries started slaughtering the revolutionaries in a long running frenzy of infighting and paranoia.

[Gerald]

US President Barack Obama has rebuked Republican rival Mitt Romney, saying that anyone seeking to be president needs to work for all Americans.

Mr Obama told chat show host David Letterman said Mr Romney was wrong to describe 47% of Americans as "victims".

Earlier, Mr Romney defended his remarks after secretly filmed video of a speech to donors became public.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19644498



Note: Update record.

[mookiemookie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19644498


http://media.funlol.com/pictures/2975.gif

[August]

I guess the truth hurts don't it?

Democrats will never be able to stop deficit spending as long as their base expects their bread and circuses. I fear that an Obama 2nd term will leave us with just bigger and bigger deficits.

Just wait until the country finds out what the Dems really mean by "raise taxes on the rich". It's going to include the so called middle class they claim to champion.

[mookiemookie]

Politicians will never be able to stop deficit spending as long as their base expects their bread and circuses. I fear that a 2nd term for any president will leave us with just bigger and bigger deficits.

Just wait until the country finds out what the politicians really mean by "lowering taxes". It's going to screw the so called middle class they claim to champion.

Went ahead and fixed that for you.

[August]

Went ahead and fixed that for you.

I think it's a more polarized than that Mookie. The GoP actually cut taxes whereas the Dems, if they talk about taxes at all, talk about raising them.

[Tribesman]

I guess the truth hurts don't it?
You appear so polarised I don't think you can even point in the general direction of truth most of the time when it comes to politics.

[August]

http://i.usatoday.net/news/opinion/_photos/2012/09/19/e120919_Gamblepg-vertical.jpg

[Tribesman]

August delivers.:yeah:
Now all thats need is the republican candidate for those particular small town voters saying its true to really demonstrate how you are unable to locate the truth.
After all the republcans are lining up to say their candidate screwed up by spewing that 47% nonsense. While the Republcasn candidate said Obama was right about the god and guns.

[soopaman2]

The tax level is not as much a problem as the government spending.

People love to attack SS and medicare, but ignore the 700 billion dollar elephant in the room.

The military industrial complex.

That is what I would like to see adressed, and not halfhearted stuff either, like a minimum 30% reduction over 5 years.

Stop using 1000$ an hour plus mercenaries to do what soldiers are trained to do.

When you are done feeding the rich, maybe then you can go back to starving the poor.

[Tribesman]

Stop using 1000$ an hour plus mercenaries to do what soldiers are trained to do.

But then you got to give them welfare, those damn leeches wanting healthcare and pensions and money for housing and food allowances, hell they even want you to pay for their education too, I bet they all vote team D as they are clearly dependant on the government .:03:

[Stealhead]

The tax level is not as much a problem as the government spending.

People love to attack SS and medicare, but ignore the 700 billion dollar elephant in the room.

The military industrial complex.

That is what I would like to see adressed, and not halfhearted stuff either, like a minimum 30% reduction over 5 years.

Stop using 1000$ an hour plus mercenaries to do what soldiers are trained to do.

When you are done feeding the rich, maybe then you can go back to starving the poor.


Please introduce me to the mercenary that makes $1,920,000 a year(do the math at your rate that is $160,000 in a month 40 hours per week I am being very conservative as well with hours) because there is no such thing.Those guys are usually earning from $80,000 to $120,000 a year depending on there experience and what they are doing.PMCs are much cheaper than you realize because they provide their own logistics meaning guns, ammo, food, insurance, and administration.They are either providing it themselves or paying for services rendered to them the insurance would of course their own.Sometimes they are also employed to train our own troops as well.

I know guys that work in the industry trust me they do not make $1,000.00 an hour most mercs are former US or British military anyway so you are not really using an outsider and they are certainly not wealthy either. Wealthy people do not risk their lives for starers generally speaking there are some exceptions like Lawrence of Arabia and I am sure that there are some millionaires in the US that would risk their life to help someone.Not every wealthy person is Satan believe it or not.

Employing PMCs actually is a way to cut costs not raise them.

You must be weary with military cuts because too much reduction will be seen as a sign of weakness and can actually make you weak.. during conflicts armed forces are always expensive
no one profits from a protracted war so says Sun Tzu therefore one should only get involved in wars that can be won and quickly wars that prove unsuccessful should be ended.You should have a military force that match the demands that you put upon it though.If they are smart in 2014 they will reduce the military size once the need is no longer required in Afghanistan.the less troops you have in a region the more vulnerable they become so cutting too much too fast would put the American troops in Afghanistan that you hold so dearly(I am not mocking you here) in greater danger.Just look at the Australians and what has been happening to them and the Kiwis as well weakness was seen by the enemy and taken advantage of.

[MH]

I feel so unintentionally like a bigot when I trash Israel. (But do so anyways, I never really valued my reputation:O:)
:salute:

Well...its ok..
I would not call you bigot...or critic yet most importantly you are having fun and that's what counts. :03:

[eddie]

Well August, the Dems wouldn't have to even think about raising taxes, if Congress would close these loop holes that corporations use, along with the those that are making way more then a million dollars a year.

When Mitt was asked what his plan was on taxes, he replied, "When it comes to taxes, I'm a fair minded person!" Man, you can't get more definitive then that,lol

[August]

Well August, the Dems wouldn't have to even think about raising taxes, if Congress would close these loop holes that corporations use, along with the those that are making way more then a million dollars a year.

When Mitt was asked what his plan was on taxes, he replied, "When it comes to taxes, I'm a fair minded person!" Man, you can't get more definitive then that,lol

Gotcha politics at it's best. Wait for a setting where a long answer is inconvenient and then lambaste him for not giving enough details.

As for loopholes the Dems had two years where they controlled both Congress and the White house. If they intended to close corporate loopholes then they had all the opportunity that they needed. Instead they increased the tax burden for all Americans with that White Elephant health care bill.

[August]

Please introduce me to the mercenary

Using mercenaries ought to be against US law. I can think of no greater threat to our nation than to allow private military's to exist and grow. If it were up to me i'd ban them all.

[eddie]

Can say the same thing when the Republicans controlled Congress for 4 years during Bush's first term. They could have done something, but didn't. I don't know what the answer is when it comes to Healthcare. One thing is, letting the insurance industry dictate it is nothing but pure bull****! Remember the HMO crap they tried, what a piece of work that was!

One thing I don't understand, if we have a President (no matter what party he belongs to) and the country doesn't like the job he is doing, he doesn't get re-elected. But right now, we have a Congress that the American people rank as the worst we have ever had. If their numbers were any lower, they would be negative,lol So instead of electing new congressman, we keep sending back the same ones. And we wonder why Washington is so screwed up! Whose fault is that?

Just recently, instead of coming up with a budget, Congress raised the debt limit again. They are worried they might lose their jobs next election, which is coming up quick for a lot of them. So instead of doing something to help the whole country, they are worried about themselves. And we will re-elect the same asshats like we always do.:88)

[August]

Don't blame me. I haven't voted for an incumbent in almost 8 years. I'm only voting for one this time and that's because he's one of the few bipartisan pols i've ever met.

[Stealhead]

Using mercenaries ought to be against US law. I can think of no greater threat to our nation than to allow private military's to exist and grow. If it were up to me i'd ban them all.


Actually the US uses them primarily for training purposes either our own troops or troops in a nation that we are aiding this actually frees up our troops to perform other missions.So long as they are controlled I see no problem with them.

Every hear of Executive Outcomes? You should look them up some time it was a South African PMC that was with a few hundred men able to protect Sierra Leone from the RUF a Liberian backed force of particularly brutal nature they enjoyed killing young boys parents and taking the boys and forcing them to be soldiers in the RUF the Executive Outcomes employees hired by the government of Sierra Leone solved the problem fairly quickly first by training and increasing the discipline of the Sierra Leone troops the other effective method was going on long range patrols finding the RUF squads that went around killing parents and kidnapping sons and simply ambushing the scumbags and killing every last one this made the villagers much safer.But the UN did not like that Sierra Leone had hired a PMC and got Sierra Leone to fire Executive Outcomes and hire the UN.:haha:

The UN failed to do with many more troops what Executive Outcomes had done with ease.

[August]

The UN failed to do with many more troops what Executive Outcomes had done with ease.

Sorry but I don't care how good they are. Instead of being driven by ideology and love of country their honor and their loyalty is bought by money. I see little difference between them and Somali pirates or mafia hit men.

[Platapus]

There are no laws specifically prohibiting the US Government from using mercenaries. There have been SCotUS interpretations that have led decisions to indicate that it is against the law, but there are no laws prohibiting it.

The use of mercenaries may lead to difficulties when the Geneva Convention is involved however and depending on the circumstances mercenaries may lose some or all of their convention rights if they are judged to be an Unlawful Combatant, but the sponsoring country is not penalized.

The Neutrality Act of 1939 and the Anti-Pinkerton Act of 1893 have both been cited by the SCotUS as indicating that the US should not use mercs, but the particulars of the case did not apply to the Federal Government.

In 1989 the UN passed the The International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries but the US refuses to sign it.

So while mercenaries should be against the law is a valid position, the reality is that they are not against the law.

[Stealhead]

We could be like France and have a Foreign Legion which gives the French government the benefit of having an armed force that can be used where the general population might object if the troops where French citizens even though there are Frenchmen in the FL they are there because they want to be they where not conscripted.

We have made extensive use of mercenaries throughout our history some fighters and some leaders Von Steuben comes to mind say what you will that man was a mercenary but had a very important effect on our fighting ability during the Revolutionary War.We had plenty of Native American mercs as well.
And in Vietnam we employed many Chinese Mungs and also Cambodians worked with SOG Green Berets and Seals they where either the best or worst fighters depending on their mood and the entire pro American force in Laos where Lao true but also mostly paid fighters as in they did not fight without payment.

They have their down sides but they also provide many benefits also they are the oldest type of professional warrior I dont think they will be going away any time soon.

And the way the majority are employed in the west they are usually hired to to train others on top of that the ones employed by the US and UK are almost entirely former members of
the military many of them are retired SF troops there are guys that fought for the Green Berets and Seals in Vietnam working as mercs today a guy like that has a alot of very valuable experience and is pretty reliable.It is all in how you use them with proper restraint there is no real problem and if you are the type that needs something off the books and every world power needs to do tings off the books sometimes they are useful.

[August]

We have made extensive use of mercenaries throughout our history some fighters and some leaders Von Steuben comes to mind say what you will that man was a mercenary


Actually von Stuben volunteered to fight without pay and became a citizen of the country he fought for. That's kind of like the opposite of a mercenary.

[Skybird]

We could be like France and have a Foreign Legion which gives the French government the benefit of having an armed force that can be used where the general population might object if the troops where French citizens even though there are Frenchmen in the FL they are there because they want to be they where not conscripted.

We have made extensive use of mercenaries throughout our history some fighters and some leaders Von Steuben comes to mind say what you will that man was a mercenary but had a very important effect on our fighting ability during the Revolutionary War.We had plenty of Native American mercs as well.
And in Vietnam we employed many Chinese Mungs and also Cambodians worked with SOG Green Berets and Seals they where either the best or worst fighters depending on their mood and the entire pro American force in Laos where Lao true but also mostly paid fighters as in they did not fight without payment.

They have their down sides but they also provide many benefits also they are the oldest type of professional warrior I dont think they will be going away any time soon.

And the way the majority are employed in the west they are usually hired to to train others on top of that the ones employed by the US and UK are almost entirely former members of
the military many of them are retired SF troops there are guys that fought for the Green Berets and Seals in Vietnam working as mercs today a guy like that has a alot of very valuable experience and is pretty reliable.It is all in how you use them with proper restraint there is no real problem and if you are the type that needs something off the books and every world power needs to do tings off the books sometimes they are useful.

It was a great achievement when armies turned from being private business to consisting of soldiers wearing the king's colors. Mercenaries have no interest in peace, because then they make no income. Such an attitude easily interferes with policies of the state favoring peace of wars. Which makes it tempting to infiltrate the government with pro-war lobbyists. As a matter of fact, we already have immense, damaging lobbying in favor of the defense industry - in the US more than anywhere else. And that costs the US probably billions more than if the defense needs would be serve don the basis of real needs only, instead of edlection-oriented opportunism and lobbyism by profit-greedy corporations.

I also remind of the infamous role of Blackwater in Iraq. Their record is anything but a recommendation.

No, we better do not wish the condottieri back. There is this story about John Hawkwood, who was an English mercenary leader and condottieri:

One day, two Franciscan monks met him on the road, who gave Hawkwood the greeting of "Peace" on which he replied: "May the Lord take away your alms." The alarmed monks excused themselves, by saying they " meant only to be kind," and he explained: " Do you not know that I live by war, and that peace would be my undoing?"; and the story-teller adds: "It certainly is true that Hawkwood fought in Italy longer than any other man ever fought, and nearly every part of it became tributary to him : so well did be manage his affairs that there was little peace in Italy in his days."


Mercenary companies, corporations maintaining their own privatised armies? Not with me.

[Gerald]

Note: Update record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/politics/romneys-anxiety-over-takers-conflicts-with-longtime-gop-stand.html?ref=politics

[August]

Note: Update record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/politics/romneys-anxiety-over-takers-conflicts-with-longtime-gop-stand.htm

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[Gerald]

Page Not Found

We’re sorry, we seem to have lost this page, but we don’t want to lose you.


Check the Archives. Most articles remain online for seven days after publication. All partisan anti-Republican articles back to 1851 are available through The New York Times Article Archive (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?srchst=nyt&&srcht=a&srchr=n). 1851 – present. If you can't find what you're looking for we'd be happy to invent something.
Report the broken link. If you clicked on a headline or other link on NYTimes.com, you can report the missing page (http://www.nytimes.com/membercenter/formblink.html).
Strange it was there when I went into the link, thanks anyway, I should fix it,:hmmm:

[Skybird]

It'S still there:

With Tax Comments, Romney Wades Into a Conservative Rift
By ANNIE LOWREY and MICHAEL COOPER
Published: September 18, 2012

WASHINGTON — Mitt Romney decided to fully join the battle on social programs, warning in an interview Tuesda... ... ...

[Gerald]

It'S still there:

With Tax Comments, Romney Wades Into a Conservative Rift
By ANNIE LOWREY and MICHAEL COOPER
Published: September 18, 2012

WASHINGTON — Mitt Romney decided to fully join the battle on social programs, warning in an interview Tuesda... ... ... :up:

[Skybird]

It is possible that his remarks by content touch some truths, but are made at the wrong time (from a campaign manager's point of view), and express something many people do not want to hear. The same could be said about his Palestine-comments: he certainly is true when saying that they have no real interest in peace at all - but it is the wrong time and is an unwanted truth.

I also am in doubt that he came to these conclusions by the right thoughts. Two people can come to the same conclusions, but in very different ways or saying them for different motives.

Anyway, I think the election is done. And the Republicans are not the winners. Obama did not defeat them. They kicked themselves out.

[Tribesman]

Strange it was there when I went into the link, thanks anyway, I should fix it
Its just August wearing his "neutral" team R cheerleader shirt again.
Look.....All partisan anti-Republican articles back to 1851 are available through The New York Times Article Archive (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?srchst=nyt&&srcht=a&srchr=n). 1851 – present. If you can't find what you're looking for we'd be happy to invent something.

He doesn't like the story so attacks the source.
Unfortunately for him all those angles touched in the article have been going through the team R publications and think tanks for over a year already.
Which of course raises a question.
If so many of his backers and staff have been saying "lay off the tax line as its crap" for the past year how dumb was Romney to still try it?
Just for convenience the article contains links to the Republican leaning publications.
Though of course as they are publications that means they are media which means they are all part of a liberal plot:O:

[Oberon]

I really hope that if Romney is defeated in November that this will cause the Republican party to re-evaluate its candidates and its positioning. I am by no means a Republican, but I'm not a fan of Obama either who I see as being as strong a president as Jimmy Carter, although that might actually be a tad unfair to Carter...
However the Republicans just haven't fielded a decent candidate in Romney, just like they didn't field one in McCain, just like the Democrats didn't field one in Kerry. The Dems learnt...the Republicans haven't...yet.

[Takeda Shingen]

I really hope that if Romney is defeated in November that this will cause the Republican party to re-evaluate its candidates and its positioning.

If being essentially ousted from government in 2008 didn't do it, I seriously doubt the loss of the 2012 general election will. However, I think your point is a solid one. Obama should be losing, and badly, but he seems to be pulling further ahead. Gaffes from Romney not withstanding, a lot of this is that Americans are still angry with the Republican party for betraying it's own self-stated prinicples of 'responsible government'. They spent like crazy (mostly on defense) and completely mismanaged US foreign policy, leaving us stranded in a no-win situation in the Middle East. And now their own platform says that they want more defense spending and a hard-line in the Middle East. I say no thank you; I've seen this show before and it ended with the US bankrupt and our enemies in the very positions that we were trying to prevent them from attaining.

[Tchocky]

If being essentially ousted from government in 2008 didn't do it, I seriously doubt the loss of the 2012 general election will.

Especially when it will be easy to point at an incredibly flawed* candidate and blame him instead of the tax-cuts-for-all-y'all message.

There won't be a rethink after November, I think.

* = I mean, in 2008 they nominated the guy who lost the last primary season, and in 2012 they nominate the guy who lost to him

[Skybird]

Hm. I used to think Romney has killed himself, and in Europe there also is a lot of hope that Romney will not win. I wonder if maybe we are not too early with such calls. Checking some Us poll numbers yesterday to my surprise revealed that Romney's reputation seemed to have suffered much less than I would have estimated, and that the race, in points, is closer than what we in Europe usually expect and many here seem to wish.

I think it is possible that here in Europe we are messing up wishful thinking with reality.

Not that I hope for the one candidate defeating the other. I find both absolutely disgusting and untrustworthy, and absolutely unelectable. I can only recommend not to share the guilt of having voted for any of the two, but to march in the streets and storm the capital and the hijacked parliament.