View Full Version : Japanese Embassy under attack by the Chinese
Looks like attacking embassies is the newest fad! At least it isn't an American one this time!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49044938/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/
Jimbuna
09-15-12, 01:48 PM
This has the potential of escalating into something really serious, the Chinese will know Japan are no match for them but that in turn could bring the US in on the Japanese side....most worrying :nope:
soopaman2
09-15-12, 02:07 PM
Japan has only a defense force (Because of us) so it is our obligation to defend them in the case this escalates. I would rather fight for a Japanese citizen who thinks we are OK, and leave us alone, than some Afghani or Iraqi weasel who smiles in our face by day, and plants IEDs by night.
China would have never have done this if we (allies) have not completely neutered them post WW2.
I am no warhawk, but there is such a thing as a just cause. (first Gulf war for instance.)
Takeda Shingen
09-15-12, 02:28 PM
How much you wanna bet that protest was government-sponsored. Oh, and have we located the president-elect yet? Because, you know, that's not at all disconcerting.
Jimbuna
09-15-12, 02:40 PM
Japan has only a defense force (Because of us) so it is our obligation to defend them in the case this escalates. I would rather fight for a Japanese citizen who thinks we are OK, and leave us alone, than some Afghani or Iraqi weasel who smiles in our face by day, and plants IEDs by night.
China would have never have done this if we (allies) have not completely neutered them post WW2.
I am no warhawk, but there is such a thing as a just cause. (first Gulf war for instance.)
Well any escalation to combat would be in the Chinese backyard and I hope I'm wrong but that may well give them the upperhand.
This is all hypothetical rhetoric of course (at least from me anyhow).
This has been going on for about two months now, if not longer, and it boils down primarily to the Senkaku islands. Now, anyone who thinks only the Muslims get nutjobs in power should take a look at Tokyos current mayor, Ishihara, who has had such memorable quotes as:
"old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin"
"Roppongi is now virtually a foreign neighborhood. Africans — I don't mean African-Americans — who don't speak English are there doing who knows what. This is leading to new forms of crime such as car theft. We should be letting in people who are intelligent."
(In regards to Korean comfort women) "Where is the proof that Japanese forced them to do this? It was an era of poverty, these women grudgingly turned to the only trade they could make money in, prostitution.”
He also announced plans whilst in the US to buy the Senkaku islands for Tokyo (thankfully it seems that fell through), and then, perhaps inspired by Ishihara, a group of 'Taiwanese' raised the PRC flag whilst near the islands and escorted by Taiwanese coast guard vessels which then had a few close quarter maneuvers with Japanese coast guard vessels as the latter tried to board the protestors boat and failed.
The next month another group of Chinese from Hong Kong landed on the island, threw bricks as Japanese coast guard vessels that came near them and raised the flags of both the PRC and ROC. They were arrested by Japan, but deported without charge back to Hong Kong where they received a heroes welcome.
Angered by the Japanese governments refusal to charge the Chinese protesters, a group of Japanese organised a small flotilla which sailed near the islands to commemorate the Japanese dead from WWII, whilst they were there a group of Japanese swum ashore and hoisted the Japanese flag there. That promptly set off anti-Japanese protests in about twenty-five Chinese cities that have been going on since August and are, if not encouraged by, certainly not prevented by the Chinese government.
There have been similar protests but in a smaller scale in Japan, but it's not likely to come to an armed conflict any time soon, just the continuation of the status quo, protests, stunts and fishing vessel rammings.
I would rather fight for a Japanese citizen who thinks we are OK, and leave us alone
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bvVA7loSD-s/TVZpFX8T8vI/AAAAAAAAB7I/yKMbPaKKq2g/s1600/helos3.jpg
http://anpomovie.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/OkinawaProtest_II_sm.jpg
http://www.japanfocus.org/data/protest%20at%20Marinehq,%20Kita%20Nakagusuku%20vil lage.jpg
Admittedly, it's nowhere near the scale of Afghanistan and Iraq, but certainly the US isn't quite as welcomed as they used to be. The same thing is happening in Korea, as more of the older generation pass on, they forget the war, and things like the old 'stabbed in the back myth' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth) become popular amongst the youth, and the nationalist feelings reawaken.
I am wary of Japan, there is a lot about WWII that they still deny or try to cover up, the school book scandal of a few years ago shows that, and let's not get started on Nanking. I think the whole issue over the Yasukuni Shrine is a bit daft, but there's still a LOT of hatred in the local area and while I don't think it'll boil over into war in this decade, it does mean that another conflict in the Pacific could occur within the century.
Skybird
09-15-12, 04:02 PM
The Chinese are on a shopping tour in that region since some time, it seems. wanting to mark claims by shifting international sea borders, or claiming islands theirs by claims whose legal status at best is questionable.
If Japan folds here, it signals that in case of confrontation it will fall back. So the Chrinese will become encouraged to raise additonal demands later on, even more since the whole region is looking at how Japan reacts.
Australia will be a very interestzed observer, Im sure, having a weak defence capacity but still sitting on the outer fence to the neighbourhood of this big and bullying neighbvour in the other contient. And it has both some tasty trade contrracts with other nations in the region, and some own ressources as well, that both make some seductive prey.
Japan must hold out in this confrontation - and the other nations in the region should support it, no matter what - in their very own interest. Else anybody can become the next mobbing victim.
TLAM Strike
09-15-12, 07:04 PM
This has the potential of escalating into something really serious, the Chinese will know Japan are no match for them but that in turn could bring the US in on the Japanese side....most worrying :nope:
I don't think the Chinese are crazy enough to risk this going too far and provoking a nation as technologically advanced as Japan (a producer of nuclear energy). There is always the risk of Japan having a secret "ace in the hole".
I don't think the Chinese are crazy enough to risk this going too far and provoking a nation as technologically advanced as Japan (a producer of nuclear energy). There is always the risk of Japan having a secret "ace in the hole".
More incline to this that Japan not being a match for the chinese. It may not be in numbers, but the technology and fighting spirit of the japonese is something to be consider.
Japan has already folded a couple of times, China is probably looking to squeeze every bit of political leverage out of this that they can. It's also useful for them to have a common foe to rally the people against as the economic crisis begins to bite the Chinese economy.
In terms of actual warfare...not likely, Japan is a big trading partner with China IIRC and the PRC wouldn't want to risk their trade, nor would they want to push the delicate Asian markets into freefall whilst their economy is in the transition stage from a pure export into a balanced export/import economy.
Tak also has a good point, has anyone seen Xi Jinping? He seems to have vanished which is not good news, last thing we need is an internal power struggle in the PRC.
Cybermat47
09-15-12, 09:03 PM
Frederick Uncle Charles Kate!
Jimbuna
09-16-12, 06:17 AM
I don't think the Chinese are crazy enough to risk this going too far and provoking a nation as technologically advanced as Japan (a producer of nuclear energy). There is always the risk of Japan having a secret "ace in the hole".
If you mean Japan may have nuclear weapons not only do I doubt it but that would be suicide for them given the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal.
TLAM Strike
09-16-12, 08:38 AM
If you mean Japan may have nuclear weapons not only do I doubt it but that would be suicide for them given the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal.
The size of China's nuclear arsenal? The one of only about 150-200 warheads? Considering that China's boomers have never even been to sea a 1st strike taking out their offensive missiles is still a possibility. Japan is also very interested in ABM, operating both the PAC-3 and SM-3. JAXA also has some very nice space launch vehicles that not only can be derived in to ICBMs but could put munitions in to orbit.
Skybird
09-16-12, 09:07 AM
Japan was assessed eartlier this year to have the capability to build a usable nuclear warhead within 3-4 months, if needed. Whioch is no surprise, since it is a hightech nation, has all the knowledge and computers, and nuclear powerplants en masse.
I would not be surprised to learnt that in the past ten yeras or so, due to the rise of China, they already have secretly build some nuclear warheads, like I think the Brasilians also have done.
The Japanese forces may be small, but they surely have some hightech in their inventory - anything else would be a surprise for such a tech-junky nation like Japan. Training standard of their personell I never have read about, but I hope it is better than the security trainings they have in their zoos. A special characteristic of the Japanese forces is that legally it is a civilian body, and thus members can resign just at any time they want, and the industry seriously causes personell drian on the arme dfofrces by offering capable young men better payed jobs and careers. I thus do not take a high performance level in the Japanese forces as granted. And I do not compare it to the codes and self-understanding of the Imperial Japanese army of WWII.
The status of the military is under heavy dispute in Japan, a majority of the population seems to be strictly against a "regular status" army. Already renaming the defence ministry in 2007 caused some very heavy public disputes.
So, the critical factor in Japan'S military engagement (or lack of), probably is public opinion, to a more serious degree than in any Western country. There seems to be a rift between conservative military circles, and the civil society.
The conflict between US bases and Japanese residents, especially on Okinawa, was in the main about noise (flight operations), and misbehavior and crime committed by US troops: rape and bar fights in the main, also the existence of brothels in the vicinity of US bases.
Herr-Berbunch
09-16-12, 09:20 AM
The 'Dont fly over our city' reminded me of the guy who painted on his roof something about telling the RAF where to go as his house was on a regular low-flying route.
Every possible flight that could do then went over his house in the months following. :D
I'd paint it on mine if I thought I'd get an increase in low flying.
The size of China's nuclear arsenal? The one of only about 150-200 warheads? Considering that China's boomers have never even been to sea a 1st strike taking out their offensive missiles is still a possibility. Japan is also very interested in ABM, operating both the PAC-3 and SM-3. JAXA also has some very nice space launch vehicles that not only can be derived in to ICBMs but could put munitions in to orbit.
Yes, but any Japanese nuclear strike would have to be done with the support of the US, because a handful of warheads vs 200 warheads isn't going to work. Furthermore, all either side really needs to do to cripple the other, but in particular Japan, is HANE.
To be honest, even the possibility of war would cripple both sides economy, and both Japan and China have economies that are teetering on the edge anyway, Japans is circling around the toilet rim after the Tsunami, which is probably why both sides are making an issue of this island, to try and keep the populace distracted.
Every possible flight that could do then went over his house in the months following. :D
:har::har: I love RAF humour. :yeah:
Well this posturing is schocking and unnecessary. On both sides, as Oberon pointed out there is still a worrying section fo the nationalist right wing in Japan that deny Japan's imperial wringdoing (found a fascinating clip on youtube that i hope to find again justifying the occupation of Korea)
As for China lovely of the government to keep stirring up this nationlist crud to divert people's attention from their own problems and the apparent government power sturggle going on. From enviromental issues to settling the Taiwan thing and some serious concerns with their economy.
Skybird
09-16-12, 11:56 AM
All sides - Taiwan, China, Japan - are driven by nationalist forces over this. All sides have risen maximum demands that practically exclude any compromise. No side can now move back even just one small step without losing face, and without pissing its nationalists as well as major parts of its "normal" population.
I currently do not see this standoff ending quickly or easily. Since also fishing grounds and resources play a role, and a chance for a tri-national cooperation in exploiting these is practically ruled out, and since further the US cannot play the honest broker since it is closely tied with Japan and Taiwan, we probably must get used to the idea that the sabre rattling in this part of the world will be daily routine from now on. And could turn into a hot incident as well.
Red October1984
09-16-12, 01:35 PM
What is the deal here?
No embassy is safe anymore. :timeout:
TLAM Strike
09-16-12, 04:04 PM
The 'Dont fly over our city' reminded me of the guy who painted on his roof something about telling the RAF where to go as his house was on a regular low-flying route.
Every possible flight that could do then went over his house in the months following. :D
I'd paint it on mine if I thought I'd get an increase in low flying.
You can always try what this guy did... (http://www.airwarriors.com/community/index.php?threads/low-level-flyby-complaint.38059/)
soopaman2
09-16-12, 04:28 PM
This kid takes the cake.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2009/mar/24/penis-drawing-roof-google
If I was his dad I would make him clean it for turning my roof into a truck stop mens room.
(But laugh in private)
On a side note, the Brit article used the alternate word for a rooster in the article, you guys don't censor language like we do... I'm bitter.
mookiemookie
09-16-12, 04:58 PM
Gallery of photos from the protests: http://imgur.com/a/Y7oIp
the_tyrant
09-16-12, 08:22 PM
Not a really good deveopment:down:
Mind you, the government is trying its best in supressing this kind of sentiment, but the stuff you read on the internet does not paint a rosy picture.
Just a few casual observations on the equavent of Subsim in Chinese (a military enthusiest forum, with a strong gaming componant focused on simulations)
First of all, the racism would be shocking to many of us here. You see lots of racist rants and whatnot against Japanese and Chinese minorities.
Than, the "collectivist" Chinese mentality starts to show. In western societies like the US, "national prestige" is not really highly valued, individual liberties are valued more highly. However, in times like these, you see how the majority would gladly sacrifice their own liberties for "national strength" (something you never hear in the west), sure, they might just be paying lip service, talking about it, but the fact that they are even willing to say it demonstrates a unique characteristic of the chinese mentality. (before someone says that they are paid government adgents, I know many of these guys personally, we game together)
Than, you see many opinions that have been long forgotten in the west start to surface in China. Hitler is interpreted to be a hero to the german people, and how the chinese government should go fascist (particularly shocking, as many of the guys I went to school with have become Hitler lovers). they even managed to go back more, people start digging around, and the ideologies of Cecil Rhodes, Otto Von Bismark, Robert Clive, and other 19th century colonial era politicians start coming back.
Some highlights include (roughly translated):
"Through starving Paris, Otto Von Bismark managed to secure Alsace-Lorraine. Starving Tokyo is the one and only effective technique for us to secure a victory against Japan"
"The conquest of Africa allowed the Europeans to secure global dominance, and the loss of Africa proved to be their downfall. Instead of caving into the demands of African revolutionaries, an iron fist in the colonies would have proved to be an effective method for insuring european dominance"
"At the battle of Plassy, the East Indian Company guranteed themselves sustainable and continueous growth through the taxation of the Indian people. Why can't the the central government establish the 'East Japan Company' to insure economic growth through the exploitation of Japan?"
"The decline of the west started when westerners started believing in 'democracy' and 'equality'. National power is the no. 1 priority for any nation, only than can we insure our dominance over Japan."
"Alexander burned down Persepolis to avenge the invasion of Greece by the Persians, we should burn down Kyoto to avenge the second world war"
Can you even find pro imperialist people in Europe? I'm pretty sure Clive and Hastings are no longer British national heros. I also find it ironic that the "Hun Speech" is now commonly quoted in China.
finally, anything can be faked in china, not just watches and TVs, but even speeches now.
First and foremost, I would like to directly speak of matters of importance. I would like to cut out all the frivolities and instead focus on content of utter importance. Manners and ceremony cannot be upheld in this moment of national importance, and I must proceed to explain recent controversies.
I must apologize for lying towards her majesty and the parliament. The rumours regarding Cape Colony and the South African Company that have been circulating for some time are true, to different extents. The economic viability of her majesty***8217;s African holdings is not nearly as high as I have claimed them to be. And although I must disappoint those who have trusted and defended me, I shall confirm that I did willingly falsify content in a series of reports regarding the viability of certain African regions. For those who intend to attack me, I shall willingly bear the blunt of those attacks. However, in the future, when the benefits have become common knowledge, and my true motive understood; my name and honor shall be restored.
It is not for fame, fortune, or position that I have falsified or manipulated findings presented in the reports. It is for the prestige and national standing of Britannia. Nowhere have I ever attempted to gain any personal profit from the government actions that were a result of the reports. Nor did I ever intend so.
Britain***8217;s colonies are the main cause for her prestigious standing in the global community of nations. It is the colonies that fills the Frenchman with jealousy, and forces the Spaniard to hang his head in shame. Britain***8217;s overseas territories allows the royal navy to roam the seas with impunity, knowing that safe harbour is only a few days sail away.
Ever since the renaissance, the value of overseas holdings has never been significantly doubted; colonial holdings were always cherished and valued. However, there is a recent troubling sign. Supporters of the liberal party have openly attacked colonialism itself, not the workings of the colonial office, but the very concept of colonialism.
Yet, resources cannot be diverted from colonial pursuits. Many of Britain***8217;s holdings are in a perilous state, with insurgencies that threaten the control of her majesty***8217;s government. We must not forget the disaster of 1783, and how the ever scheming French attempted to humiliate Britannia in its aftermath.
Liberal MPs that campaign for the abandonment of colonial pursuits have ulterior motives. They have no regard about the disgrace and humiliation such an action would bring to the empire; only popular support can pique their interest, and they wish to cut colonial spending in order to create employment, or so they claim. This is unacceptable. Employment is of little concern for the empire. The colonial service is always in need of good men, and it has the potential to provide employment for millions of Englishmen in a genteel career.
In one hundred years, the British legacy shall be fully felt throughout the world. Railroad shall span from the Cape to Cairo, India shall produce more steel than the United States, and our fleet shall roam the seas, from harbours around the world. America shall come to us on their knees, begging to return to the empire.
The accusations of treason no longer matter for me; I am but a man of little importance in the grand scheme of things. But if the poisoned tongues of the liberals take hold, we might as well just hand our empire to the Germans. The fate of Britannia is closely linked with that of its colonies. The loss of her colonies shall mark her decline.
Not gonna lie, this fake speech by supposedly by "Cecil Rhodes" was pretty well done, a major cut above the "Engrish" we have come to expect. The original post have unfortunately been deleted, but there were lots of people agreeing with it before someone pointed out that it was a fake.
TwoGamers
09-16-12, 11:47 PM
Problem with china is army size and the fact they are communist. I personally think America should not get involved, especially in the current economic situation.
China as it stands at the moment is a porcelain (or perhaps terracotta? :03:) state, it looks beautiful and it looks impressive, but if you kick it hard enough it will fall apart (yes, I know Hitler said the same about the Soviet Union). The Chinese economy is linked massively to trade, it's thrived on being the cheapest producer of...well...just about anything. However, global trade has slowed since the economic crisis, and whilst China was originally sheltered from it, they are now feeling the bite. Massive housing projects lie empty, growth is down and political corruption and turmoil is a constant problem.
The aim of the new five year plan is, I do believe, to try to balance out the Chinese economy, by investing internally so that the Chinese people buy the goods that China currently exports, so that the PRC is not so dependent on exporting goods to other countries to survive. However, whether or not the PRC has done this in time is debatable.
The PRC also has a huge social problem, there is a massive divide between the societies in the coastal cities and the societies in the rural villages. In the cities you have TV, internet, shops and clean (ish) water. In the rural villages, you have the village pump, the village cow and if you're lucky, a radio. Naturally this means that most young Chinese head for the cities at the first opportunity, which means eventually there's going to be a rural crisis of food, and a urban crisis of living space.
There are lots of problems facing the PRC in the next few decades, and an armed conflict is only going to make them worse, which is why I think the PRC will continue to use soft power to maneuver itself into a favourable position in Asia. It already has the edge over many of its neighbours, Japan included, so why would it need to resort to armed conflict?
No, this whole island debacle is merely to keep the peoples minds off the economy and the political problems that have beset the PRC, after all, the Chinese version of twitter has censored searches for 'Xi Jinping' at the moment, but you can bet they haven't censored searches for 'Diaoyu' :03:
It's a bit like Argentina at the moment with the Falklands, a lot of hot air and noise. Perhaps there might be a small clash between coast guard vessels in the near future, I can see the PRC letting it escalate that far, but in terms of an actual full on armed conflict with Japan...nah, ain't going to happen, not in this decade anyway.
In other news, the American Chinese in San Francisco have apparently got into the swing of things with their own protests in support of the PRC, a 21 year old man has been killed by surging mobs in China, and another man faces a lifetime of paralysis after he was dragged from his Japanese made car and beaten by an angry mob. However, the mood online in China is beginning to turn slightly as some Chinese question the wisdom of destroying their own cities in protest over some rocks...although they do not question the rocks true Chinese heritage.
Than, you see many opinions that have been long forgotten in the west start to surface in China. Hitler is interpreted to be a hero to the german people, and how the chinese government should go fascist (particularly shocking, as many of the guys I went to school with have become Hitler lovers). they even managed to go back more, people start digging around, and the ideologies of Cecil Rhodes, Otto Von Bismark, Robert Clive, and other 19th century colonial era politicians start coming back.
This is shocking and very sad. :nope:
Especially since I met a few Chinese people who are decent - one roomate in student res in particular who came here to study international law at my institute in Geneva. Great fellow, proud to be Chinese and a friend. However, even he got angry when the subject of the atomic bombs was brought up-he felt Japan deserved it after what was done to his country, and he had family involved, his grandfather was almost shot for example as he worked as an engineer at a Shanghai factory and forgot he had a spare part in his pocket that was found by a Japanese soldier.
I can sort of understand his frustration in that quite a few people outside of East Asia are very ignorant of what the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, and others went through and how their deaths far exceeded those of Japan even taking into account radiation sickness (at least the stats I've seen). I can even sort of understand his thinking Japan deserved the nukes (more than say an American saying Japan deserved the nukes for Pearl Harbor).
However given that, I must wonder about this admiration for Hitler, to his credit my roomate did not admire Hitler and knew very well about the holocaust and how the Allies helped-but they are not going to get much sympathy from the west if they go this far-it looks like they are becoming the new bully and doing what they claim others did to them in the past.
The funny thing is I never hear of any such resentment by say Russians against modern Germans (more against Americans), perhaps because they (well the Soviets) raised the flag on the Reichstag while end of the Pacific war was on the USS Missouri. :hmm2:
An interesting contrast with a Filipino friend and former colleague whose father had a long and distinguished career in the foreign service in the governemnt of the Phillipines when they gained their independence. I understand he had been a person of note before the war (I think serving in the administration preparing for planned independence in 1945) when the Japanese invaded. He joined the US-backed guerrila forces fighting against Japan. His wife (who had 10 kids) had to face death when Japanese troops showed up at the door when this fellow had first left demanding information as to his wherabouts, she refused and a servant was grabbed, had gasoline poured over her and set on fire. Then the family was rounded up and shipped off to a camp-but they survived. The father was taken prisioner in any case and treated much worse but also survived.
After the war guess what one of his first postings was? Ambassador to Japan. :yep: My friend's mother did not want to go but they did and they ended up loving the place, he even went back to teach English before he followed his folks to Geneva and got into business.
They don't forget but they have forgiven. :up:
the_tyrant
09-17-12, 07:36 AM
WA really bad development
Japanese firms have suspended operations
http://www.zdnet.com/cn/japanese-firms-suspend-operations-in-china-7000004343/
Jimbuna
09-17-12, 07:46 AM
Like some other wars in the past...it starts with trade disputes :hmm2:
Not being overly serious here before anyone takes a hissy fit.
The funny thing is I never hear of any such resentment by say Russians against modern Germans (more against Americans), perhaps because they (well the Soviets) raised the flag on the Reichstag while end of the Pacific war was on the USS Missouri. :hmm2:
I think what hasn't helped with China and Japan is that some parts of Japan are still in denial about events of the war. For example, a hundred members of the LDP party (one of the longest running ruling parties of Japan) denounced Nanking as Chinese propaganda in 2007 whilst their party was in power. There are many others in positions of power in Japan who hold similar viewpoints, the Governor of Tokyo (who I have already drawn attention to) is one of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Controversy
Then there's been the continual controversies in Japanese school textbooks which have been altered by the Japanese government over the years in order to downplay Japans role in the Pacific war, in particular its actions in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies
There's also the Yasukuni shrine, which is another sensitive issue between Japan and China which flares up a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine
Compare this to Germany where even displaying a Swastika is forbidden, and any hint of historical revisionism brings down hordes of 'Nazi' comments and criticism.
That is not to say there are not those who have forgiven what Japan did, but Japan itself hasn't done itself any favours with its bullish treatment of its own history.
Skybird
09-17-12, 09:30 AM
Next escalation stage.
Over a thousand Chinese trawlers have set sail and plan to set sail for the disputed islands, accompanied by Chinese coastguard and patrol units.
Source: Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/politik/article109276236/China-riskiert-den-Showdown-mit-Japan.html)
This makes it even harder for the Chinese to now back down without loosing not just their face, but what it hangs on as well.
Bejing also announced to present "geologic evidence" to the UN that would allow it claim sovereignity over naval areas up to several hundred miles into international waters and up to immediately offshore of Okinawa. It also openly threatens with sanctions.
Tokyo's posiiton is not any more comfortable. No idea on what they will do now, whether backing down or moving on with the deal to buy the islands from the current private (Japanese) owners.
I think that all countries bordering the conflict zone do themselves no favour to stay out of this and not lining up with the Japanese, no matter WWII memories. This display of collective weakness will only encourage the Chinese to bully even more aggressively in the future - and then maybe at their cost instead of just Japan's.
Jimbuna
09-17-12, 09:58 AM
If the article is true Sky the Chinese are certainly upping the stakes and looking 'deadly' serious.
Yeah, I think we can expect either a rerun of the 2010 rammings and arrests or a peaceful boat cruise around the island with a Japanese escort. More likely to be rammings though.
On a positive note, at least this is bringing the PRC and ROC together... :haha:
Jimbuna
09-17-12, 11:11 AM
Could be a practice drill for Taiwan as well :huh:
Skybird
09-17-12, 11:15 AM
Could be a practice drill for Taiwan as well :huh:
Could become a drill for HMS Ambush! :sunny:
soopaman2
09-17-12, 11:22 AM
So wheres all the political rhetoric from our politicians, where is Mitt and Obama?
What is their take on this?
Is it as venomous as Iran?
Will we let a country we neutered fall?
I already know the answer, corporate America loves China, and will never let anything happen to the readily available slave wages, and poor environmental practices China provides. Being that our government is in bed with the so called job creators, I see us kowtowing to China no matter what.
I don't care what the Japanese did. Name me one country in history who has not skewed facts to suit them? Name me the perfect noble country who always told it like it was in textbooks, my textbooks in grade school history attempted to justify the internment camps we threw Japanese-Americans in. Then in the same breath stated how rascist and evil the Germans were.
We were taught how many died in the Rape of Nanking, but Stalin and his genocides were glossed over.
Spare me, it is our obligation, since we made them the way they are.
I bet the UN will do something!:haha:
Skybird
09-17-12, 11:40 AM
We interrupt the running program for a personal newsflash. Oberon, since you are stuck in this thread, this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2X3j3WxMk&feature
ETA: just a couple of days. They had some minor last minute issues.
And now back to the main program.
:D
Could be a practice drill for Taiwan as well :huh:
Diplomatically perhaps, certainly this is a test for the PRC to see how far it can exert its soft pressure before the US starts moving CVBGs about.
We interrupt the running program for a personal newsflash. Oberon, since you are stuck in this thread, this is for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2X3j3WxMk&feature
ETA: just a couple of days. They had some minor last minute issues.
And now back to the main program.
:D
ooooooh :rock: Danke!
EDIT: Returning to normal schedule, I just spotted this in the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19620355
soopaman2
09-17-12, 12:11 PM
EDIT: Returning to normal schedule, I just spotted this in the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19620355
Excellent diplomatic move.
It shows we are watching them, and aware of the threat, without outright offending or threatening China.
Maybe it is time for us to stage Naval exercises in the disputed areas of the South China sea again.:)
America has perfected being a bully, yeah poke at Japan, the scrawny kid who is good at math, but they are friends with the big bully, not smart...Unless they are trying to poke at the bully.
But Iran is more important!
TLAM Strike
09-17-12, 01:20 PM
Name me one country in history who has not skewed facts to suit them? Name me the perfect noble country who always told it like it was in textbooks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andorra
:O:
soopaman2
09-17-12, 01:23 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andorra
:O:
Smart arse!:D
Jimbuna
09-17-12, 03:01 PM
I was going to suggest 'Utopia' :03:
I don't care what the Japanese did. Name me one country in history who has not skewed facts to suit them? Name me the perfect noble country who always told it like it was in textbooks, my textbooks in grade school history attempted to justify the internment camps we threw Japanese-Americans in. Then in the same breath stated how rascist and evil the Germans were.
IMHO we should care what the Japanese and everyone else did. Also I cannot agree with the comparison of the internment of Japanese Americans - wrong and awful it was - is in any way comparable to mass extermination. Strange thing though, my textbooks (in Canada) did say the internment was awful and wrong.
I would suggest though that history is being used by the various governments as a tool for the masses, they have their own agendas grounded in the present.
Oh I disagree the US will not back Japan in a crunch-after all if you're talking just jobs haven't Japanese corporations invested in factories in the US?
I think I understand where you're going with Iran and agree - this is more worrying.
Hottentot
09-19-12, 05:54 AM
I would suggest though that history is being used by the various governments as a tool for the masses, they have their own agendas grounded in the present.
The very nature of history is that it has been filtered by someone and thus separated from the past. And school history...well, I'm interested in fighter planes too, but I'm not silly enough to assume that I could actually have an equal conversation with a real fighter pilot.
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