Schools out in Chicago [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Ducimus

09-11-12, 08:39 AM

I understand that the teachers are paid $75,000.00/year. That looks great on paper but what is the standard of living in the Chicago area? $75,000 in NY City gets you a parking spot for the year at your condo. Benefits are probably very good I would imagine.

Yeah, that is what's called, "Cost of Living". Something Yubba probably doesn't know about being from what I imagine is bumblehick "Floriduh."

It is a good question as to what the cost of living is in Chicago. Actually, cost of living is EVERYTHING. My wife for instance would get paid a lot more if she were to work in California, as opposed to what her employer offers working in Utah. However, the cost of living in California is so high, monetarily she'd be breaking even, and most likely would have a lower standard of living then she has in Utah. As for myself, my pay in California is peanuts. It's just enough to get by. Here in Utah, it's not bad pay at all, because the cost of living here is lower, so my standard of living is higher. The evidence is in the numbers. Our house here in Utah, at time of mortgage closing was just under 180. In california I'm guessing the same house would be valued at 300 or more.

So unlilke our the close minded crackpot that lives his life through a set of horse blinders that started this thread, id keep an open mind and ask, "well, just how expensive is it there in chicago?" before casting judgement on the people involved.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 10:10 AM

I trust Emanuel about as far as I can throw him. I don't think for a second he is concerned with the teachers well being financially or otherwise. As for the OP, some unions in the past have been known to strong arm for more than what is commensurate with the work involved. I have seen unions close factory over demands resulting in no jobs for anyone. It is a mixed bag in some cases.

Somehow I see this as a ploy for BO to save the day and make this a campaign talking point. Another Beer Gate as it were.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 10:55 AM

I trust Emanuel about as far as I can throw him. I don't think for a second he is concerned with the teachers well being financially or otherwise.

I honestly don't know who Emanuel is, nor do I really care about that talking head, or the teacher strike in Chicago. Why would i care? It's not in my area, and it isn't my problem. People only care about this stuff if they have something to prove. Smacking Yubba's constant moronic idiocy with common sense and clear thinking is the only reason why I responded to this thread at all.

As for the OP, some unions in the past have been known to strong arm for more than what is commensurate with the work involved. I have seen unions close factory over demands resulting in no jobs for anyone. It is a mixed bag in some cases.

Yeah, unions are a mixed bag. They do some good, they do some bad. These days i think the probably do more harm then good, though historically, if it wasn't for unions, many of the things we have like a 30 min lunch and two 15 min breaks for an 8 hour shift wouldn't exist at all. So i'll give them that much, but nowadays, I wouldn't openly support unions unless employers were trying to bring us back to sweatshop conditions.

Somehow I see this as a ploy for BO to save the day and make this a campaign talking point. Another Beer Gate as it were.

Go go gadget conspiracy theory. :haha: I wonder if whatever intellectual disease yubba has is contagious. :har:

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 11:06 AM

Go go gadget conspiracy theory. I wonder if whatever intellectual disease yubba has is contagious.

Rahm Emanual, BO right hand man for quite sometime. WH Chief of Staff. Oddly enough, the mayor of Chicago. :hmmm:

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 11:19 AM

sign, You're thinking of a blue collar union. This is the white collar public union. They are just a paracite as far as I'm concerned.
The teacher's union IS the problem. They need to reign these guys in.

Here's what will happen (I'll bet you a Dr. Pepper):

1. Union (teacher's) goes on strike
2. Public caves in, gives them what they want. (It's for the children)
3. Budget time rolls around. Guess what, we don't have enough money for anything (cuz it got sucked into the PERS pension-benefits blackhole)
4. repeat cycle as necessary.

We go throw this same smurfing cycle here. There's never enough money for the schools, because the PERS pensions suck up all of the money, so the actual school doesn't get any money. They raise taxes, then turn around and say they don't have enough money. Go to the admin offices and you'll see where your tax dollars are going.:/\\!!:dead:

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 11:21 AM

Go go gadget conspiracy theory. :haha: I wonder if whatever intellectual disease yubba has is contagious. :har:

You can laugh all you want, it's Chicago; they're known for their corruption.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 11:32 AM

Rahm Emanual, BO right hand man for quite sometime. WH Chief of Staff. Oddly enough, the mayor of Chicago. :hmmm:

And Chicago was the place of birth and formal education for Shel Sliverstien, who wrote 25 Minutes to Go for Johnny Cash and who, in turn, was first asked to perform in the White House in 1970 by none other than one Richard Milhouse Nixon, who ordered the coverup of the Watergate break-in. Therefore, the striking teachers are linked with the Watergate Scandal.

The entire demonization of teachers was among the primary reasons that I, a one-time right wing idealogue, began to feel alienation from the Republican Party.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/200632_193084080726508_7402361_n.jpg

While the image is made to be humorous, it is also the truth. The GOP feels that teachers are overpaid. They hate their union membership. And the anti-intellectualism of the Republican Party is staunchly critical of anyone that has too much "learnin'", which is exactly why their disdain does not stop with K-12 education.

CCIP

09-11-12, 11:35 AM

Thanks Tak, I was going to post something along these lines.

It's kind of funny, but both this and the CEO thread (which should be ideologically opposite) have really irked me because people throw politicized stereotypes back and forth instead of looking at the issues. It sickens me just how divisive rhetoric on these things has gotten :-?

Hottentot

09-11-12, 11:40 AM

[Poster]

That's the first time I have ever seen anywhere someone saying the teachers are over paid. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so seriously absurd. :o

I mean, the old silly lines like "too long holidays", "short days [because obviously the teachers just teach in the class room and then leave home without ever doing anything else]" and "anyone could do that anyway" I can somehow understand but...

over...
paid...

:har:

Penguin

09-11-12, 11:52 AM

That's the first time I have ever seen anywhere someone saying the teachers are over paid. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so seriously absurd. :o

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=teachers+overpaid&word2=teachers+underpaid :hmmm:

That's probably because those overpaid teachers have too much time to google during their 13 months vacation per year.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 11:53 AM

And Chicago was the place of birth and formal education for Shel Sliverstien, who wrote 25 Minutes to Go for Johnny Cash and who, in turn, was first asked to perform in the White House in 1970 by none other than one Richard Milhouse Nixon, who ordered the coverup of the Watergate break-in. Therefore, the striking teachers are linked with the Watergate Scandal.

The entire demonization of teachers was among the primary reasons that I, a one-time right wing idealogue, began to feel alienation from the Republican Party.

While the image is made to be humorous, it is also the truth. The GOP feels that teachers are overpaid. They hate their union membership. And the anti-intellectualism of the Republican Party is staunchly critical of anyone that has too much "learnin'", which is exactly why their disdain does not stop with K-12 education.

Overgeneralizing that the GOP believes teachers are overpaid. This issue with unions and added bonus of this teachers union needs to be put to bed quickly for the Dems campaign. Does Emanuel really want to offer a talking point, in bad light, to the GOP?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2012/09/10/why-the-chicago-teachers-strike-is-bad-news-for-president-obama/

* It's Chicago: Yes, we know that President Obama has no role ; either way in the strike. But, that the strike is happening in Chicago, the town where President Obama made his political name doesn;t help him. And that the current Chicago mayor, Rahm Emanuel, was Obamas first presidential chief of staff isn;t much help either. Remember that Republicans are doing everything they can to link Obama to Chicago and Chicago-style politics ***8212; thinking that it will turn off independents in the middle of the country. That the teachers strike will be at (or close to) the top of every evening news show until it ends allows Republicans a daily news peg to remind people that Obama is from the Windy City.
* Labor, distracted: Organized labor has experienced a series of major setbacks over the past few years ; from losing a Democratic primary challenge to Sen. Blanche Lincoln (Ark.) in 2010 to coming up well short against Gov. Scott Walker in the 2012 recall race. Those losses make it very difficult for labor;s credibility to weather ANOTHER high profile defeat in Chicago. If labor loses this fight it may be a sort of death blow to its longstanding image as the big bully (in a good way) in politics. With stakes that high, the showdown in Chicago is going to be a top-of-the-mind issue for labor strategists and allies until it;s resolved. And that means that labor;s attention is divided, which isn;t a good thing for the Obama campaign who need unions; full attention this fall.
Rahm, distracted: Less than a week ago, my colleague Peter Wallsten reported that Rahm was taking over the fundraising effort for Priorities USA Action, the leading Democratic super PAC that has struggled so far to come close to matching the financial might of its conservative rivals. While we know Rahm is a gifted multi-tasker, it;s hard to imagine that with the biggest and most consequential fight of his mayorship now joined that he is going to find much time to court the massive donors the party needs to write massive checks as soon as possible. If the strike gets itself resolved in short order, this likely won;t be a major issue but if it drags on, the political calendar starts to become Democrats enemy. In order to make a difference, you need the money in the bank sooner rather than later so it can be effectively spent.

Blood_splat

09-11-12, 11:59 AM

Republicans would want to privatize all public schools and make students spend 300 dollars a month on lunches.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 12:03 PM

Republicans would want to privatize all public schools and make students spend 300 dollars a month on lunches.

We can find this in writing? :hmmm:

Ducimus

09-11-12, 12:04 PM

sign, You're thinking of a blue collar union. This is the white collar public union.

Yeah your right, I was thinking blue collar. Honestly I feel my roots are in the blue collar world. While growing up, my Dad was in the United Steel Workers Union for as long as i could remember. (that membership stopped when he became a Foreman, now he's a "company man". :haha: ). I was in a couple of unions myself. The Teamsters when i was a loader working on a loading dock and Retail Clerks as a box boy, and stocker.

All three of those jobs sucked by the way. They worked your ass off. Always moving, always on your feet. Even though i disliked paying union dues out of my already small paycheck, I walked away from it feeling if it wasn't for the unions, i would have had what piddly time for breaks and lunch i did have. One 10 min break and a 20 min lunch or something like that.

You can laugh all you want, it's Chicago; they're known for their corruption.
Yeah, you have a point there. I forgot about that.
http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/G/O/G/1/capone2.jpg
Chicago's Posterboy.

The entire demonization of teachers was among the primary reasons that I, a one-time right wing idealogue, began to feel alienation from the Republican Party.
... (poster)
And the anti-intellectualism of the Republican Party is staunchly critical of anyone that has too much "learnin'", which is exactly why their disdain does not stop with K-12 education.

The sterotype seems to be that all teachers are liberal hippies. Particuarly college professors.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 12:07 PM

The sterotype seems to be that all teachers are liberal hippies. Particuarly college professors.

Tell me about it. Oh the names I have been called, and always by people that I don't know or have any connection to.

Hottentot

09-11-12, 12:12 PM

I'm a socialist. It says so in my "location", so it must be true.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 12:17 PM

I'm a socialist. It says so in my "location", so it must be true.

Yeah, well you socialists also have the best performing schools in the world.

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

Hottentot

09-11-12, 12:23 PM

Yeah, well you socialists also have the best performing schools in the world.

It's not like they'd let us ever forget it. :roll:

But sure, being a product of that system, I don't have many complaints. Some things could be improved, but having discussed the school systems of various countries with many exchange students, I see many things could be worse too. And I have yet to meet an exchange student who wouldn't praise our school (even if they hate absolutely everything else in Finland, the school is something they always like.)

Edit: Oh, and for the record, that article has quite a list of BS claims too.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 12:26 PM

Tell me about it. Oh the names I have been called, and always by people that I don't know or have any connection to.

If I was to make a guess, I'd say that Stereotype has it's roots in the 60's and the Vietnam war, and has persisted to this day.

August

09-11-12, 12:39 PM

Republicans would want to privatize all public schools and make students spend 300 dollars a month on lunches.

We can find this in writing? :hmmm:

Democratic National Committee Secret Handbook. Right above the section that details the ebil GoP's plans for flipping over innocent peoples garbage cans on nights with a full moon.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 12:45 PM

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 12:52 PM

Yeah your right, I was thinking blue collar. Honestly I feel my roots are in the blue collar world. While growing up, my Dad was in the United Steel Workers Union for as long as i could remember. (that membership stopped when he became a Foreman, now he's a "company man". :haha: ). I was in a couple of unions myself. The Teamsters when i was a loader working on a loading dock and Retail Clerks as a box boy, and stocker.

All three of those jobs sucked by the way. They worked your ass off. Always moving, always on your feet. Even though i disliked paying union dues out of my already small paycheck, I walked away from it feeling if it wasn't for the unions, i would have had what piddly time for breaks and lunch i did have. One 10 min break and a 20 min lunch or something like that.

Yeah, you have a point there. I forgot about that.
http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/G/O/G/1/capone2.jpg
Chicago's Posterboy.

The sterotype seems to be that all teachers are liberal hippies. Particuarly college professors.

You're okay Duci, I knew we were on the same page. People here don't seperate the gov't (white collar) unions Vs the the blue collar ones.

bah, too busy to post more.:timeout:

Ducimus

09-11-12, 01:09 PM

I notice a preponderance of the word "stereotype" thrown around a lot in this thread and others. Sometimes it is not written directly but inferred. Broad statements are mainstay in some cases. There is a general theme and it usually involves Yubba.

It's my personal opinion that while we all paint with a wide brush from time to time, Yubba's brush is the widest, and most consistently used.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 01:12 PM

It's my personal opinion that while we all paint with a wide brush from time to time, Yubba's brush is the widest, and most consistently used.

Consistency is admirable. His broad sweeps attract much attention. Generate much discussion.

Sailor Steve

09-11-12, 01:19 PM

Of course teachers are overpaid. They make more than I do, don't they?

...Shel Sliverstien, who wrote 25 Minutes to Go for Johnny Cash...
Not to mention A Boy Named Sue. :D

Ducimus

09-11-12, 01:33 PM

Consistency is admirable.
Not necessarily. One can be consistently: off, wrong, or incorrect; depending on the context.

His broad sweeps attract much attention.
Only because they are so outlandish and defy belief.

Generate much discussion.
Should they? Im a bit torn on this. On one hand, he's our village idiot, and livens the place up. On the other hand, the attention his threads generate only encourages the posting of more facepalm inducing idiocy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEjVpgLkeFg)

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 01:39 PM

Not necessarily. One can be consistently: off, wrong, or incorrect; depending on the context.

Right, wrong, consistency is still a admirable quality.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 01:51 PM

Right, wrong, consistency is still a admirable quality.

I'm gonna have to disagree. Ironically your painting a wide brush, saying consistancy is an admirable trait. Period. All encompassing. In this situation, my brush isn't so wide, because I'm saying consistency is not neccessarily an admirable trait. Not all encompassing, but implied that it is conditional depending on context. Say for example, your target shooting. If your shooting at a silhouette target, and your consistently off, and not hitting what you were aiming at, i fail to see how that would be admirable. :O:

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 02:01 PM

Not necessarily. One can be consistently: off, wrong, or incorrect; depending on the context.

Only because they are so outlandish and defy belief.

Should they? Im a bit torn on this. On one hand, he's our village idiot, and livens the place up. On the other hand, the attention his threads generate only encourages the posting of more facepalm inducing idiocy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEjVpgLkeFg)

I'm gonna have to disagree. Ironically your painting a wide brush, saying consistancy is an admirable trait. Period. All encompassing. In this situation, my brush isn't so wide, because I'm saying consistency is not neccessarily an admirable trait. Not all encompassing, but implied that it is conditional depending on context. Say for example, your target shooting. If your shooting at a silhouette target, and your consistently off, and not hitting what you were aiming at, i fail to see how that would be admirable. :O:

If you consistently miss the target you would be considered a poor shot. Not the village idiot.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 02:16 PM

I will not be dissuaded at your attempt to side step the box you've painted yourself into because you weren't watching your choice of words ! :O:

You said, "Consistency is admirable."

I said, "Not necessarily. One can be consistently: off, wrong, or incorrect; depending on the context."

You said, "Right, wrong, consistency is still a admirable quality. "
What you said here, has implications, because It implies a binary choice. Right or wrong, left or right, hit or miss.

Then, i said, "I'm gonna have to disagree. Ironically your painting a wide brush, saying consistancy is an admirable trait. Period. All encompassing. In this situation, my brush isn't so wide, because I'm saying consistency is not neccessarily an admirable trait. Not all encompassing, but implied that it is conditional depending on context. Say for example, your target shooting. If your shooting at a silhouette target, and your consistently off, and not hitting what you were aiming at, i fail to see how that would be admirable"

Then you sidestepped the literary trap i laid before you by changing the topic of our conversation from consistency as an admirable trait, and the implied binary condition you unwittingly laid upon it, to..... Yubba. :O:

August

09-11-12, 02:25 PM

So unlilke our the close minded crackpot that lives his life through a set of horse blinders that started this thread, id keep an open mind and ask, "well, just how expensive is it there in chicago?" before casting judgement on the people involved.

Good question.

According to figures from the U.S. Census, the average resident makes about $47,000 a year, while the average teacher gets paid $76,000 a year. (Union sources place the figure at around $71,000, which is still the second highest in the country.)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/11/opinion/stanley-chicago-teachers-strike/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 02:32 PM

I will not be dissuaded at your attempt to side step the box you've painted yourself into because you weren't watching your choice of words !

No box. No side stepping. No painted into a corner. Just one guy.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 02:39 PM

No box. No side stepping. No painted into a corner. Just one guy.

That in itself is a side step, (or rather, a dodge) because your not addressing the topic of consistency that we were discussing.
( Can you tell I'm having fun with this out of boredom? :O: )

@August, well if their making that much, and are being overcompensated for the cost of living, then If i was to give a crap, they'd get the thumbs down from me.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 03:12 PM

I had my moment of zen an hour ago. I realized where the problem is. I've had this discussion before.:hmmm:

It's the hourly vs salary debate. Teachers are salary, they get paid the same if they are working 10 hours a week or a 100 hours a week. Maybe they need to switch them over to hourly.

I guess the down side would be, that would really mess with the budget. Oh wait, the budget is already messed up.:dead:

We've had that debate before here at work. All of the engineers/managers are salary. They get worked like dogs and are on call 24/7 if there is a problem.

Everybody else is hourly, which can be very lucrative if you're willing to work.:rock:

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 03:23 PM

keeping the powder dry post.

AVGWarhawk

09-11-12, 03:26 PM

That in itself is a side step, (or rather, a dodge) because your not addressing the topic of consistency that we were discussing.
( Can you tell I'm having fun with this out of boredom? :O: )

Yup. Many missing the forest for the trees.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 03:34 PM

Say for example, your target shooting. If your shooting at a silhouette target, and your consistently off, and not hitting what you were aiming at, i fail to see how that would be admirable"

The the teacher's union fix is to spend more money on ammunition. If you can't hit the target, maybe you should get someone who can shoot, instead of giving them more money for ammo?

So let's say you have 2 sniper schools. Sniper school A can produce snipers for say $500, and the student can hit the target 9 outta 10 times.

Sniper school B can produce snipers forsay $5000, and their students can hit the target 3 outta 10 times.

Which school is better?

And since I gotta put Yubba in this, will Yubba eat the rounds?

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 03:35 PM

( Can you tell I'm having fun with this out of boredom? :O: )

You could help with the PT-boat mod? You love to mod, right?

right?

Love to mod, right?

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 03:54 PM

Ducimus

09-11-12, 03:56 PM

I had my moment of zen an hour ago. I realized where the problem is. I've had this discussion before.:hmmm:

It's the hourly vs salary debate. :

Well, the thing is, nobody goes on salary unless its to the advantage of company. More work out of you, for less money. It's their way of getting out of paying you overtime. Salary = BOHICA

On the other side of the coin, I wish i was on salary. I'm responsible for certain tasks. If could knock out my daily tasks, i could take off for the rest of the day for the same pay. That would be freaking awesome. And of course, that will never happen. An hourly jobber like me on salary = Less work out of me for more money.

Yup. Many missing the forest for the trees.

Well, i thought it was fun having a debate about nothing. :haha: All in good fun of course. :O:

You could help with the PT-boat mod? You love to mod, right?

right?

Love to mod, right?

ummmm... How about.....

NO!

EDIT:
The Bush administration tried to fix education through standardized testing. No Child Left Behind was a disaster, as it increased teacher workload with no appreciable gain in results.

I thought the No child act was a bunch of BS to begin with. Mainly because I personally don't think everyone is smart or intelligent. Not everyone is going to get a Bachlor's, Masters, or a Doctorate. Something people.. no not just people, parent's, can't come to terms with, is sometimes, some people are just going to grow up to have a job with their name on a shirt. Not all people are gifted equally. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try your hardest in academia, but come on now. Not everyone is going to go to college. Sometimes a vocational school, is the better route for an individual. In fact, i can think of a few trades that probably pay better then some 4 year degree's some folks have. If i could have a "do over" in life, id have tried harder in Algebra, and gotten into HVAC. Unfortunately for me, english and creative writing was what I was best at and not mathmatics.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:17 PM

Taquita, quit whining about Bush. Just quit whining please.

Moving on.

Well, the thing is, nobody goes on salary unless its to the advantage of company. More work out of you, for less money. It's their way of getting out of paying you overtime. Salary = BOHICA

On the other side of the coin, I wish i was on salary. I'm responsible for certain tasks. If could knock out my daily tasks, i could take off for the rest of the day for the same pay. That would be freaking awesome. And of course, that will never happen. An hourly jobber like me on salary = Less work out of me for more money.

Granted the engineers/managers are making A LOT of money, the stress load isn't worth it (IMO).:dead: My dad is hourly (same company I'm at) and he made bank with all of his overtime. I believe for a few years, he was earning double what his base pay is.:rock:

oops, scrolled too fast and didn't see this:
ummmm... How about.....

NO!

C'mon, I'll buy you lunch.

You don't want to do a monster mod just for pt-boats?

Okay, I buy 2 lunches and a case of beer.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 04:20 PM

Taquita, quit whining about Bush. Just quit whining please.

Who is whining? I am stating the fact of life in education. No Child Left Behind didn't work .It's policies are still in effect today. And the name calling? Do we have to go back to this? Are we not adults? Address my point if I am wrong. However, I know for a fact that I am right. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Edited for syntax. Nice butcher work, Tak.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:22 PM

Who is whining? I am stating the fact of life in education. No Child Left Behind didn't work .It's policies are still in effect today. And the name calling? Do we have to go back to this? Are we not adults? Address my point if I am wrong. However, I know for a fact that I am right. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Edited for syntax. Nice butcher work, Tak.

Who controls education? Left or right?

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:25 PM

How much money will it take to have good schools?

Sadly the teachers unions will always want more.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 04:26 PM

I thought the No child act was a bunch of BS to begin with. Mainly because I personally don't think everyone is smart or intelligent. Not everyone is going to get a Bachlor's, Masters, or a Doctorate. Something people.. no not just people, parent's, can't come to terms with, is sometimes, some people are just going to grow up to have a job with their name on a shirt. Not all people are gifted equally. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try your hardest in academia, but come on now. Not everyone is going to go to college. Sometimes a vocational school, is the better route for an individual. In fact, i can think of a few trades that probably pay better then some 4 year degree's some folks have. If i could have a "do over" in life, id have tried harder in Algebra, and gotten into HVAC. Unfortunately for me, english and creative writing was what I was best at and not mathmatics.

Regarding No Child Left Behind, the intentions are there, but it doesn't work. Standardized testing is a poor representation of academic achievement for the very reasons that you stated above. Yet, that is the standard to which schools are held. It makes no sense and never made sense, but it allows politicians to point and say that they did something about education. Like it or not, the development of the youth has become a political matter. And we wonder why it is failing, just like everyting else that politics becomes involved in.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 04:27 PM

Who controls education? Left or right?

Public education is controlled by the local school board. Oversight is controlled by the state and federal governments. Both left and right hold blame in this matter.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:28 PM

And the name calling?

:haha: Cry me a river fluffy. You treat other people like dirt that don't agree with you, so stuff it, hypocrite.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 04:29 PM

:haha: Cry me a river fluffy. You treat other people like dirt that don't agree with you, so stuff it, hypocrite.

If you want to turn this into a boxing match, we can do that. But, you are going to lose, and I think you know that. Best push from the table now.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 04:29 PM

C'mon, I'll buy you lunch.

You don't want to do a monster mod just for pt-boats?

Okay, I buy 2 lunches and a case of beer.

If you gave me a six pack of miller lite for every evening (or early morning) i worked on it, I *might* consider it.

That's 24 beers a week bucko'. A single case of beer? Yeah right. :haha:

edit: I don't normally drink that much, but that's how much it would take to get me modding again. Getting buzzed would be the only way I could tolerate it.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:32 PM

If you gave me a six pack of miller lite for every evening (or early morning) i worked on it, I *might* consider it.

That's 24 beers a week bucko'. A single case of beer? Yeah right. :haha:

24 beers a week, eh? Miller lite?

What's your address, so I can ship it to you? Can I just open an account for you at Costco?

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 04:33 PM

*AA treatment not included.:dead:

Ducimus

09-11-12, 04:36 PM

*AA treatment not included.:dead:

See edit of my last post. :O:

yubba

09-11-12, 04:37 PM

How much money will it take to have good schools?

Sadly the teachers unions will always want more.
It will never be enough, I think $70,000 a year is a enough, alot folks don't even come close to making that, you want to make more money get another job. nikimcbee alittle less chit chat an more modding..,, the hours of down loading on sh3 sboot mod and it still doesn't work,.. got sboot lite to work any words of wisdom on the sboote mod would be welcomed thank you.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:02 PM

If you want to turn this into a boxing match, we can do that. But, you are going to lose, and I think you know that. Best push from the table now.

Are you going to hide behind your "moderator":haha: badge? So push your own table.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:03 PM

job. nikimcbee alittle less chit chat an more modding..,,

Hey, that's my line.:har:

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:05 PM

See edit of my last post. :O:

That's why didn't make the offer to Jim.:har:

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 05:07 PM

Are you going to hide behind your "moderator":haha: badge? So push your own table.

Address my point. Can you?

Ducimus

09-11-12, 05:26 PM

That's why didn't make the offer to Jim.:har:

Honestly PT boats don't interest me much anyway. If i was to step back into modding, id go off the deepend and make a fantasy submarine super mod. Just not neccessarily call it that in the title. Or maybe i would. I've always been curious as to what deviltry can be conjured with the fantasy walter boat in SH4:UBM, superimposed on a fictional campaign.

Cause then you'd have free license to make convoys however large you want, the missions whatever you want, or the ASW however you like. You could make a lot of toys in the way of upgrades, and make alot of dangers. Super sub, in a super hard envioronment, without the constraints of being historically correct or accurate. But hey, I have alot of ideas. Trouble is, most of em suck.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 05:30 PM

Honestly PT boats don't interest me much anyway. If i was to step back into modding, id go off the deepend and make a fantasy submarine super mod. Just not neccessarily call it that in the title. Or maybe i would. I've always been curious as to what deviltry can be conjured with the fantasy walter boat in SH4:UBM, superimposed on a fictional campaign.

Cause then you'd have free license to make convoys however large you want, the missions whatever you want, or the ASW however you like. You could make a lot of toys in the way of upgrades, and make alot of dangers. Super sub, in a super hard envioronment, without the constraints of being historically correct or accurate. But hey, I have alot of ideas. Trouble is, most of em suck.

My $.02 US about modders, for what it's worth. There are two types. The first does tons of work, knows that it means the world to the community and expects to be treated like a god. This person craves the spotlight. The second does tons of work, knows that it means the world to the community and does not care if he is treated like a god. He wants no spotlight. The second type is you, Ducimus.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:33 PM

Wow, you're a stubborn dude fluffy, I'll give you that.

Here's an idea.
I say you should resign as a moderator and become a regular member if you're going to be a partisan hack. You pretend to be "professional", until somebody pushes back, then you play the moderator card.

See I expect more out a moderator. Neon (THE moderator for this forum) dosn't treat other people the way you do. He is very professional and non-partisan.

The most respectful moderator at subsim (IMO) is CCIP. I think he is the best (model) moderator here and you should look to his example on how a moderator should behave towards the average members. He is not insulting,the way you are, he dosen't resort to name calling, like you do. There has been subjects that we (CCIP) haven't agreed on, but he is still respectful to the other opinion.

It's one thing if lay-members treat each ither poorly, but a moderator should not behave like that.

So, I'm done with this discussion with you.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 05:35 PM

Ducimus

09-11-12, 05:38 PM

Flattery will get you no where taks. :haha:

As an aside, as modders go, I consider myself mediocre, (a master of nothing) even though some people (mistakenly) put me on a freaking pedistal. Despite the line in my sig, i STILL get PM's asking for this or that. Leave me alone. I have a list of games i bought on steam I still need to play! :D

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:39 PM

If i was to step back into modding, id go off the deepend and make a fantasy submarine super mod.

:hmmm:

SH5 is calling you.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcwNESp0a7igDXDj8o6t81IF7v902Jb w1DpSrGlVrqm0-250mkaceDsmoJSg

What's a SHV anyway?

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 05:40 PM

Flattery will get you no where taks. :haha:

As an aside, as modders go, I consider myself mediocre, even though some people (mistakenly) put me on a freaking pedistal. Despite the line in my sig, i STILL get PM's asking for this or that. Leave me alone. I have a list of games i bought on steam I still need to play! :D

Wasn't meant as flattery. It was the truth. Many, many members have tried to entice you to return to modding. You didn't. Others would have returned because of ego. You keep your's in check, and that is something that I wish was more common.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 05:48 PM

back on topic, @1480, so are you in the middle of this mess?

Oberon

09-11-12, 05:54 PM

I don't know what the situation in the States is like, but over here, well, qualifications might as well be printed on toilet paper for all they are worth.
I didn't do too badly at school, but I couldn't afford to University fees. I have decent GCSEs and A levels, and I'm doing part time work as a night porter. Ok, there's a lot more behind the reason that I'm doing this than just a lack of jobs, transportation for one thing.
If the employment market isn't there, then all you are doing is shoving more people into the dole queue, and creating a generation of NEETs (or NINJAs as I prefer to call them).
Now, I'm fairly centralised, I have some left leaning beliefs, and some slightly right leaning ones, but I think that nations need to start thinking about just how much in the long term intergrating themselves so completely into a globalised trading system is working out for them. For example, in the UK a large proportion of our food comes from abroad (insert stereotypical comment on British food here), and so you have to add transportation costs on that and if something ever happened to interrupt that food shipment routine, then the country would run out of food fairly swiftly.
We have invested so much into teritery industry, that the primary and secondary industries have withered and died. Sheffield used to be based around a massive steel industry until the 1980s, and when that collapsed, well...see 'The Full Monty' for some examples of life in the old steel city in the early 1990s. We're going full circle now as some steel industries are being reopened, some old coal mines are being reopened, because with the rising costs of fuel, it's not as economical to transport from abroad as it once was.
Now, in the US you have a better chance of doing this than we do, since you are not linked into the EU, but there is always the risk that focusing on internal industry will lead to a massive rise in nationalism and xenophobia, which we can see already in some nations. It's a delicate balancing act, and there are no easy answers.

Ducimus

09-11-12, 05:54 PM

I wouldn't call it ego (humility), so much as painful memories of how much time i sunk into that "hobby". Try sitting in a computer chair for 4 hours before work, going to work and sitting another 8, then go home and sit behind a computer some more until maybe you have 5 hours or so (sometimes less) of sleep before you get up in the morning to do your 4 hours before work shift of modding.

Do that for two or three weeks straight because your driven by a self imposed deadline and community expectations. Painful leg cramps? Check. Sleep deprivation? Check. Increased stress in my life? Check. Second unpaid job? Check. Believe me, it is VERY easy for me to stay out of modding. Ego (or lack thereof ) has little to do with it. Besides that, People can make their own mods, if they want to. But why should they when some schumck will do it for them?

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 06:03 PM

I don't know what the situation in the States is like, but over here, well, qualifications might as well be printed on toilet paper for all they are worth.

It differes from state to state. In Pennsylvania, once degreed and certified, the teachers has to comply with Act 48.

http://www.education.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/act_48_-_continuing_professional_education/8622/continuing_professional_education/507094

Essentially, Act 48 requires that teachers continue with course work at a set amount for the duration of their professional career. In reality, it has done little more than ensure work for the post-graduate educators, as teachers are required to pursue course work that amounts to an endless succession of masters degrees. Like NCLB, it is something that pleases the politicians but does little to further the quality of education.

I wouldn't call it ego (humility), so much as painful memories of how much time i sunk into that "hobby". Try sitting in a computer chair for 4 hours before work, going to work and sitting another 8, then go home and sit behind a computer some more until maybe you have 5 hours or so (sometimes less) of sleep before you get up in the morning to do your 4 hours before work shift of modding.

Do that for two or three weeks straight because your driven by a self imposed deadline and community expectations. Painful leg cramps? Check. Sleep deprivation? Check. Increased stress in my life? Check. Second unpaid job? Check. Believe me, it is VERY easy for me to stay out of modding. Ego (or lack thereof ) has little to do with it. Besides that, People can make their own mods, if they want to. But why should they when some schumck will do it for them?

I ran down the list of games that I love and came to the conclusion that I would not be willing to do any of that for a single one. You are a more dedicated man than I. :up:

Oberon

09-11-12, 09:11 PM

We've had a situation crop up over here over the past few months which has caused the potential for students in one part of the country to have their work marked at a different level to students in another part (Wales and England respectively) because of a difference of opinion between Edexcel, an exam issuing and marking company, and Ofqual, the government regulator of examinations and assessments. The problem lies in that the exams in January were too leniently marked, thus in order that quotas for the year were not exceeded, the exams for June have to be marked more harshly.
The Welsh government has decided that the exams in question should be regraded so that their results would be higher than those in England.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19556777

I feel sorry for the poor kids stuck in the middle of all this mess.

1480

09-11-12, 10:08 PM

Lewis is a real piece of work from the looks of it. I understand that the teachers are paid $75,000.00/year. That looks great on paper but what is the standard of living in the Chicago area? $75,000 in NY City gets you a parking spot for the year at your condo. Benefits are probably very good I would imagine.

I started with the Chicago police department in 92 at 30,300. Because of my years of service and sergeant rank, my base pay now is 89,000. With buy backs and being able to sell back up to 200 hours of comp time, I take home a little bit over 100k. Average family take home in Chicago is 44,000-47,000 a year. COLI is lower then both NY and LA. But we do have the 2nd highest sales tax and gas prices as of today from a gas station no where near the loop or the expressway was, 4.45 regular unleaded. :rock:

1480

09-11-12, 10:20 PM

The Bush administration tried to fix education through standardized testing. No Child Left Behind was a disaster, as it increased teacher workload with no appreciable gain in results. And the business model of productivity (best results for as little money) doesn't fly either. It is built on the principle that one can motivate those making the product through incentive. However, the product is the test score itself, and the test is taken by the student, whom you cannot fire. Anyone that has spent longer than 30 seconds in a classroom can tell you that there are just some students that don't want to do the work. In urban areas, where family support is less, the percentage of students with this mindset jumps exponentially. The teacher is then faced with an impossible task, regardless of ability.

Well I agree with your premise, but no one wants to face the 800lb gorilla in the room. If you give me a day or two I can probably get you the numbers, racial make up and area of the city. Because of political correctness no one wants to point the finger at the real problem. You dance around by alluding to problem. Call a spade a spade. You will be known for your courage.

1480

09-11-12, 10:34 PM

16% for 4 years. A modest increase in their medical contribution and I believe they are being asked to kick in an extra .05% for their pension. The beef as the teachers union is calling for is evaluations and hiring, firing. They do not want to be evaluated.... boo f#ckin hoo. City ordinance states all municipal employees to be evaluated by their immediate supervisors....not the teachers. I have spent up to 15 working hours in a month doing that. Do I want to do it, along with my daily work responsibilities, admin investigations, immediate corrective punishments, responding to citizens who have no idea what the Constitution says.....court, I could go on. I am not complaining, but do you know how many family holidays I missed? School functions? Kids being asleep when I got home from work....missing a part of their childhood.... and the teachers are being disrespected.... my ass.

August

09-11-12, 10:41 PM

This is all the result of federal government meddling in education. You can't apply one standard to every region and every type of education.

At my school we have academics from the DoE mandating that we assign our students hours of homework because that is the standard for what they think an adult ed course should include. They totally ignore the fact that most of our students have jobs and families to deal with after class is dismissed.

Some of my students hold full time jobs as well as go to class all day. Some are single parents. Some juggle all three and God bless them for their effort. Giving them homework just to satisfy some ones idea of propriety is stupid and wrong.

These are the same academics that don't see the need for hands on training. We're constantly being told that our teaching time would be better spent in the classroom than in the shop and we're forced to detail hours we spend in each for every unit.

Anyone who has ever worked in the trades knows that is a recipe for failure. Our students tend to hate boring classroom lectures. They learn by doing and our school has always been successful because we provide that environment for them. I just hate the idea that educational quality must be sacrificed because unique things are difficult to manage from afar.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 10:44 PM

City ordinance states all municipal employees to be evaluated by their immediate supervisors....not the teachers.

I am not familiar with the requirements of the Illinois Department of Education, so I will ask you: Are you saying that teachers within the Chicago Public Schools are not being evaluated? I would find that hard to believe. In Pa, I was formally evaluated by a building administrator about once every two weeks. The evaluations were followed by a meeting where long term development goals and classroom techniques were reviewed, upon which I would sign the evaluation form that would be added to my permanent record. In addition, I would be evaluated once per marking period by my department supervisor, who would then follow suit as with the building administrator. This was standard for every level I taught at. And yes, that was a lot of paperwork.

So, is it test-based evaluation, or any evaluation at all? I would find objection to having any type of evaluation to be completely unreasonable.

1480

09-11-12, 10:49 PM

I am not familiar with the requirements of the Illinois Department of Education, so I will ask you: Are you saying that teachers within the Chicago Public Schools are not being evaluated? I would find that hard to believe. In Pa, I was formally evaluated by a building administrator about once every two weeks. The evaluations were followed by a meeting where long term development goals and classroom techniques were reviewed, upon which I would sign the evaluation form that would be added to my permanent record. In addition, I would be evaluated once per marking period by my department supervisor, who would then follow suit as with the building administrator. This was standard for every level I taught at. And yes, that was a lot of paperwork.

So, is it test-based evaluation, or any evaluation at all? I would find objection to having any type of evaluation to be completely unreasonable.

They are rejecting being evaluated. Its a formula that involves test scores, quality of work, direct observations and a couple of other variables. Karen Lewis is the devil. As I said on page one, its not the teachers.

Takeda Shingen

09-11-12, 10:53 PM

They are rejecting being evaluated. Its a formula that involves test scores, quality of work, direct observations and a couple of other variables. Karen Lewis is the devil. As I said on page one, its not the teachers.

Okay, I see. Then that is unreasonable to expect not to have evaulation. Done correctly, evaluation is the tool that keeps the teacher honest and keeps the classroom student-focused. If am not familiar with Karen Lewis, but I would defriend her if I had a Facebook page.

EDIT: Here's some Karen Lewis stuff:

http://nation.time.com/2012/09/11/meet-karen-lewis-the-union-leader-at-the-center-of-the-chicago-teachers-strike/

And here's a quote from her in the article. Hopefully the quotation marks don't go all wonky.

"Let me tell you, I spent those [college] years, smoking lots of weed, self-medicating."
"I***8217;m sorry, there are kids here," she added as some audience members chuckled, "I wasn***8217;t supposed to say that, right? Too late."

Not the sort of person I want speaking for me.

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 11:00 PM

Education needs real reform. The teacher's union isn't going to allow that to happen, because it cuts into their money and power pool.:down:

I don't know how to reform it. Here are the issues that I can think of (atm).

1. Teachers need to be held accountable for their output. If they are bad teachers (for whatever reason), they need to be fired so a good teacher takes their spot.

- Get rid of tenure, make it merit based, I say.

So the million dollar question is, how do you evaluate the teacher?

2. Not, sure how this will happen, but the money needs to go straight to the school, so they can manage their needs directly and not to the state to be redestributed back as needed.

3. Too many mid level beauracrats that siphon off the money to their pet projects or programs.

One thing I have learned from being in the system is that more money does not fix the problem. That is why I reject any calls for more money.

Case in point, Utah spends the least on education in the nation (they are near the bottom anyway), but they have some of the highest ACT schools (on average) in the nation. Go figure. So compare it to the Minneapolis School district. They spend on average ~$10,000 dollars per student and have a horrible graduation rate.

Now, a big part of that is parental involvement, but these urban schools are a train wreck and they spend A LOT per student. Who controls the urban schools?

I'd rather spend the money on everystudent that cares, buy them a laptop and their internet connection and let them choose their own school. Atleast they could choose a better school to participate in. It doesn't work for everyone, but it's thinking outside of the box. If a child is able to escape a horrible school and go to a better one, then I'm all for that.

I wonder if online school is the future and brick and mortar schools are going to go the way off the dodo.

1480

09-11-12, 11:03 PM

Okay, I see. Then that is unreasonable to expect not to have evaulation. Done correctly, evaluation is the tool that keeps the teacher honest and keeps the classroom student-focused. If am not familiar with Karen Lewis, but I would defriend her if I had a Facebook page.

I have had words with you and ccip before and that was just difference of opinions. If everyone agreed we would all be fubared.

I want my daughters teachers to be the best and to care about what they do. I have a vested interest, somewhat selfish. So I want those teachers to be happy. Karen Lewis has started to bring up the 1%ers. WTF. Those 1%ers do not have their children in public school so the argument is there to incite the class divide. Now BREAKING NEWS....would you believe SEIU is going to recognize the picket line on Friday and it will be "up to the individual member" whether they want to cross the picket line. I bring this up for a reason. 144 schools have been opened from 0700-1230hrs to provide a "safe haven" (their words not mine) most in certain "urban areas that are economically challenged and have more than average violent crime rates" GHETTO that is where the building engineers WHO agreed to a contract. Please I beg of you all to google Leo Gerard. Karen Lewis is evil but Leo is the Devil.

1480

09-11-12, 11:06 PM

nikimcbee

09-11-12, 11:27 PM

They are rejecting being evaluated. Its a formula that involves test scores, quality of work, direct observations and a couple of other variables. Karen Lewis is the devil. As I said on page one, its not the teachers.

I think you are spot on. The teachers (most of them) aren't the problem, it's their leadership.

The thing that upsets me the most is this: Every year the local school districts have a tax levy for "more money" and it passes most of the time. Two years later, here they come again, wanting more money. Where did all of the previous money go? Go to the district office and you'll see where it goes, to the fatcat admins.:down: They have their admin "training sessions" in Hawaii or Vegas and then have the nerve to cry "Yo quero mas denero." The big school district here had a BIG tax levy back around 2000. They cried how they would strike and everything would close, blah, blah, blah. [you know the song and dance] So the voters passed it and guess what happened? It was revealed that they had a huge slush fund they were sitting on and didn't want to spend it.:down: (they had money, they just wanted more)

1480

09-11-12, 11:40 PM

Even better, do you know that cps budget next year has a billion dollar deficit. 3/4's of that is pensions......

OH I FORGOT THE BEST PART!!!!!!

The teachers worked the first week of school..... because their insurance would be valid for the month of Sept.

:haha: Karen Lewis, devil with any dress on....

nikimcbee

09-12-12, 12:03 AM

Even better, do you know that cps budget next year has a billion dollar deficit. 3/4's of that is pensions......
...

We have a winner!!! You sir, get a cigar!:salute: IL is in the same boat that OR is, most of the money gets sucked up by PERS. The old PERS package (they did reform this:up:), you could retire at a young age and you would be earning MORE that when you worked. That's just flat out BS. A lot of the old guard were double dipping too (retire:haha:, but stay on as a paid consultant) example: a teacher retires after their time (say 15 years) so they start collecting a FULL pension, then the principal hires them on (full time) as a consultant.:down::down::down:

So what happens when everybody is doing this? See California. They just don't have the tax revenue to support this anymore.

**AFAIK, PERS gets the first run and the tax trough before anybody else does, so there's no money for schools, po-lice, roads.

Side note part II, OR used to fund it's schools with timber revenue. What has happen to the timber industry in Ore-gone? The greenies have all but wiped it out. 3 cheers for the greenies! So now Ore-gone is the largest consumer of timber welfare money in the US. So, money that could go another state, gets sucked up by ore-gone.

1480

09-12-12, 10:39 AM

At least they have the trail.

AVGWarhawk

09-12-12, 03:18 PM

I can't make this up:

The Chicago teachers' strike has become a family feud for the Democratic party that is politically dangerous for President Obama's re-election campaign, Democratic strategists say.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/Ken-Walshs-Washington/2012/09/12/chicago-teachers-strike-puts-obama-in-tough-political-spot-

1480

09-12-12, 11:42 PM

The most ironic part of this: they are wearing red tee-shirts :salute: :har::rotfl2:

1480

09-12-12, 11:45 PM

I can't make this up:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/Ken-Walshs-Washington/2012/09/12/chicago-teachers-strike-puts-obama-in-tough-political-spot-

Well Paul Ryan came out in support for Rahm, got the famiies, bipartisanship and education reform. The best part, the fact checkers cannot go there, they will stick it in the Dems and the empty chair's rectal ducts....lmfao.

gimpy117

09-12-12, 11:46 PM

CaptainMattJ.

09-13-12, 12:07 AM

Its kind of jaw dropping how teachers want more benefits than they already have. You get MONTHS of paid vacation, total job security, health benefits, some get retirement and plenty of other benefits that the private sector would kill for. You dont see anyone else asking for "more more more, even though we have less less less". Teachers on average get more pay than people think, a pretty good wages far as im concerned. Their job security is ridiculous too, cant fire teachers for being bad teachers, unlike the rest of the job market.

This is not for the children. Them striking isnt going to help anything, the budget isnt going to spontaneously get better because they decided to strike, taking money away from that school that it gets through attendance, suspending kids education, and all "for the children". And i bet theyre getting paid for this too.

nikimcbee

09-13-12, 12:10 AM

In the 1950's Unions were never more powerful

also, in the 1950's our economy was booming

sure, we were in position to do so...but if unions were so bad it would have negated that advantage

this is why i firmly beleive that the current war on unions by the GOP is nothing more than an attempt to do away with them...at bequest of the super rich. It's not about our economy but about lining the pockets of the few who already have so much

Hey Gimpy,
So we've had this convertation before:D, so I'll just point a few things out.

You need to seperate the blue collar unions (working, the trades unions) which I can sympathize with btw vs the white collar (government/ teacher's [NOT including the po-lice/fireman]) unions.

This fight is with the whitecollar unions,imo. That's all I'm saying. We're not going to agree on anything, so there's no point in spinning each other's wheels.:D

Moving on,
A serious question for you, so how's school going for you? Jar my memory, what you are majoring in again?

nikimcbee

09-13-12, 12:14 AM

Takeda Shingen

09-13-12, 04:18 PM

Pay will differ from district to district. The average of those salaries will be different state to state, but the state does not manage contracts or salaries. That is left to the individual school district.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/chicago-public-school-teachers-highlight-perennial-debate-teacher/story?id=17202417

Example:

Chicago SD Teachers average: $71,236
Average for state of Illinois: $64,978

The teachers do, however, make slighly less than those doing comparable averaging 91 cents to the dollar.

soopaman2

09-13-12, 04:58 PM

I see unions brought up.

Typically by people not in one, or who do not know how they work, or believe what is force fed to them by corporate shilling conservatives.

I will not speak on taxpayer paid unions like teachers and police, they are out of control, the only ones getting raises these days.

My private union, has given back, due to this economy. We forgone raises for 2 years. Lost a week vacation, and had our sick days and personals halved. But we voted on that. We saw the need to work with our employers, and to compromise.

But when the money is drawn from the taxpayer teat it is endless to these people. They feel as government paid employees, they are a notch above us Proletariat scum.

I understand the rhetoric, but I ask you not to lump private unions into this. I lost 10k in wages/benefits a year due to what we gave back.

Unions is why you have your nice houses...

We would be like Bangladesh or China if it wasn't for unions.

Too bad most of them are as corrupt as our politicians, and in bed with those who want to kill an honest wage.

Critisize private unions, the builders of this country. I bet you drove along our smooth road we paved, or one of the bridges we built. Or charged your cell phone with the electric lines we put up and maintain.

We do it with pride!

But unions catch more ire than banks, or the Federal reserve here in the goooooood ol US of A, then the same folks decline they are engaging in class warfare.

the_tyrant

09-13-12, 09:44 PM

gimpy117

09-13-12, 10:15 PM

well, it's a bummer these union workers are getting raises, but have the super rich stopped getting them? I doubt it. If they can live high on the hog, and then complain about taxes and get lobbies to help eliminate them...then why can't union employees get the raises maybe everyone should be getting rather than voting for less and less in a form of solidarity; when I have a sneaking suspicion CEO's aren't doing nearly the same

Penguin

09-14-12, 12:36 PM

Ok, I am a current student, so I am biased.

I do volunteer teaching at the computer science club at school. And truthfully, I genuinely think I am better than a few of my teachers at this:shifty:

There is no quality control in the education system. Especially in courses like computers or cooking and things like that.

I got 96 in a course where I learned nothing, and I didn't even think I did anything. I mean, I'm not complaining, but the school is not getting any sympathies from me.

Also, from a different angle, school was supposed to reduce juvenile delinquency, through getting us off the streets, and through keeping us occupied. However, discipline at school is getting horribly out of control.

Last year, a kid got stabbed at my school. This other guy pulled a toy gun on a freshman, and almost scared him to death. People smoke under the no smoking sign, and the dress code might as well not exist (guys, I don't want to see your pink underwear). If the cops come to out school and do a drug bust, they might end up arresting a quarter of all the students.

So yeah, the education system is not getting any sympathies from me:hmph:

*sigh*:roll: I'll take the time:

The logical flaw in your argument is that you take anecdotal evidence from your micro view to make a statement from the macro view

Though you must be in the most horrible school in your state, where:
- teachers need no certification, as no standards whatsoever exist
- students with preknowledge write good tests
- a school is not supposed a learning facility but some sort of labor camp, keeping people away from society and occupied

Hearing that a "guy pulled a toy gun" is the most horrendous, shocking school story I have ever heard. :o This really sounds like 1980s Beirut.

Penguin

09-14-12, 12:51 PM

Back on topic:

When you regard salary as a motivational factor, a good wage indirectly increases the work standard. We all know how horrible demotivated teachers are. Though the formula more money = better education is wrong.

People complain about high wages for teachers in public school, but have no problem to send their kids to a private school, where the teacher's wages are even higher, not even talking about the costs of higher education in the US.

Divide and conquer works: People are jealous of the teacher' s benefits. Instead of demanding those benefits for their own jobs, they want the ones other person receives cut. Often the same folks who say that the Occupy movement promotes jealousy.

Still the main questions continue: How to effectively raise the education level? How can we measure "success" in education, how can we evaluate the work quality of teachers?

CCIP

09-15-12, 01:31 PM

http://i.imgur.com/9g3pT.jpg

I thought I'd just leave this here :D

Onkel Neal

10-21-12, 07:36 AM

Ok, I am a current student, so I am biased.

Also, from a different angle, school was supposed to reduce juvenile delinquency, through getting us off the streets, and through keeping us occupied. However, discipline at school is getting horribly out of control.

Back on topic:

When you regard salary as a motivational factor, a good wage indirectly increases the work standard. We all know how horrible demotivated teachers are. Though the formula more money = better education is wrong.

People complain about high wages for teachers in public school, but have no problem to send their kids to a private school, where the teacher's wages are even higher, not even talking about the costs of higher education in the US.

Divide and conquer works: People are jealous of the teacher' s benefits. Instead of demanding those benefits for their own jobs, they want the ones other person receives cut. Often the same folks who say that the Occupy movement promotes jealousy.

Welcome to the world of socialism :)

Dredging up the last "school/teaching" topic I can find. I have been teaching for 2 months now, and it has been a real interesting experience. Some observations:

I've heard for years how the solution to the education problem in America is the quality of teachers. At this juncture, I have to point out that you get what you pay for, and most of the teachers I have met and worked with are smart, motivated, patient, and by all means, capable. For $45,000 a year (yes, with 2 months off in the summer, that's the only reason anyone would do this job :haha:), it's not bad pay, but it's still pretty limited.

The real issue is the quality of students--you cannot teach very much if the kids will not stop talking and sit in their seats. It's a constant battle to keep them on task, hit the sweet spot of holding their severely limited attention span and interest, and get them to do their work. Yes, I know kids have always resisted school and education, long since before I was a kid, and that it's our job to drag them into the light. But in the past -- correct me if I am wrong -- the parents actually did their job and raised a kid who would respect their elders enough to shut up and sit down...and allow some teaching to take place.

And the school system is at fault, probably because society/voters/legislators are outlining what they must/can and cannot do with regards to classroom management, by enabling kids to get away with bad behavior, and by forcing teachers to deal with disruptive kids mixed in with kids who will actually do their part and receive instruction. Honestly, I feel horrible for the 40% of the class who are quiet and trying, while I spend most of my time trying to keep the other 60% in line. And the teacher has few real options to make a disruptive kid feel real consequences.

I think private schools do work, like you said, for several reasons--higher teacher pay, definitely attracts better teachers, but also the people who value education and send their kids to private schools probably have their stuff together more and their kids are less disruptive. And, if Johnny is in trouble for his behavior, mom and dad will address that with real concern because they are paying directly for his education. Sort of like college.

My respect for teachers, which was considerable before this (based on the quality, caring work they did with my children), has increased.

nikimcbee

10-21-12, 09:27 AM

I have been teaching for 2 months now

So how do you like it?
Have you done parent-teacher conferences yet?

the parents actually did their job and raised a kid who would respect their elders enough to shut up and sit down...and allow some teaching to take place.

:up:

Jar my memory, what grade are you doing again?

And the teacher has few real options to make a disruptive kid feel real consequences.

So how do you handle these kids?

Takeda Shingen

10-21-12, 09:42 AM

I think private schools do work, like you said, for several reasons--higher teacher pay, definitely attracts better teachers, but also the people who value education and send their kids to private schools probably have their stuff together more and their kids are less disruptive. And, if Johnny is in trouble for his behavior, mom and dad will address that with real concern because they are paying directly for his education. Sort of like college.

Well, yes and no. Having worked in both private and public schools, I can certainly attest to the fact that the students were better behaved in the private school. This was not simply due to the fact that parents were more involved, as parents were still problematic (they just don't seem to be any different, regardless of environment), but largely because the school had the option of dismissal. The administration could expel the student from the school. Public schools largely do not have that option. While it is true that most districts include at least one alternative school to be used for disruptive students, they are not used as frequently due to the limited resources and staffing available.

In terms of pay, my experience is that there was no comparison. I came out of grad school to my first teaching job in a private school. I was making $25k per year and the benefits were terrible. That was masters scale too. And that was the tradeoff for the better teaching environment. The teachers were not union, and the board paid them whatever they wanted. There was a lot of teacher turnover due to the fact that you just can't raise a family on that salary.

Onkel Neal

10-22-12, 09:15 AM

So how do you like it?
Have you done parent-teacher conferences yet?
:up:

Jar my memory, what grade are you doing again?

So how do you handle these kids?

I am teaching 5-8, different subjects. How do I handle these kids? Constant warnings, assign them paragraphs to write out, additional homework (with doesn't get done), make them stand in the hall, send them to the office (when they really go off the deep end). I try to explain why they need to stay on task, it goes right over their heads. It's such a hassle, when all I want to do is teach, help them learn, and help them grow. Each student is important to me, even the difficult ones, but the system really handicaps the teacher by mixing them all in one class.

Well, yes and no. Having worked in both private and public schools, I can certainly attest to the fact that the students were better behaved in the private school. This was not simply due to the fact that parents were more involved, as parents were still problematic (they just don't seem to be any different, regardless of environment), but largely because the school had the option of dismissal. The administration could expel the student from the school. Public schools largely do not have that option. While it is true that most districts include at least one alternative school to be used for disruptive students, they are not used as frequently due to the limited resources and staffing available.

In terms of pay, my experience is that there was no comparison. I came out of grad school to my first teaching job in a private school. I was making $25k per year and the benefits were terrible. That was masters scale too. And that was the tradeoff for the better teaching environment. The teachers were not union, and the board paid them whatever they wanted. There was a lot of teacher turnover due to the fact that you just can't raise a family on that salary.

Ok, thanks, I really was off the mark on that. I did not know the pay/benefits gap was that great between private and public schools. Yeah, $25K is not a livable wage, I guess they mostly employ new teachers and spousal incomes.

nikimcbee

10-22-12, 09:23 AM

Well, you must be doing okay.:salute: I'll have to call you up sometime and tell you my parent-teacher conference stories.:haha: (if I didn't already:doh:)

Penguin

10-23-12, 07:48 AM

Welcome to the world of socialism :)

Dredging up the last "school/teaching" topic I can find. I have been teaching for 2 months now, and it has been a real interesting experience. Some observations:

I've heard for years how the solution to the education problem in America is the quality of teachers. At this juncture, I have to point out that you get what you pay for, and most of the teachers I have met and worked with are smart, motivated, patient, and by all means, capable. For $45,000 a year (yes, with 2 months off in the summer, that's the only reason anyone would do this job :haha:), it's not bad pay, but it's still pretty limited.

The real issue is the quality of students--you cannot teach very much if the kids will not stop talking and sit in their seats. It's a constant battle to keep them on task, hit the sweet spot of holding their severely limited attention span and interest, and get them to do their work. Yes, I know kids have always resisted school and education, long since before I was a kid, and that it's our job to drag them into the light. But in the past -- correct me if I am wrong -- the parents actually did their job and raised a kid who would respect their elders enough to shut up and sit down...and allow some teaching to take place.

And the school system is at fault, probably because society/voters/legislators are outlining what they must/can and cannot do with regards to classroom management, by enabling kids to get away with bad behavior, and by forcing teachers to deal with disruptive kids mixed in with kids who will actually do their part and receive instruction. Honestly, I feel horrible for the 40% of the class who are quiet and trying, while I spend most of my time trying to keep the other 60% in line. And the teacher has few real options to make a disruptive kid feel real consequences.

I think private schools do work, like you said, for several reasons--higher teacher pay, definitely attracts better teachers, but also the people who value education and send their kids to private schools probably have their stuff together more and their kids are less disruptive. And, if Johnny is in trouble for his behavior, mom and dad will address that with real concern because they are paying directly for his education. Sort of like college.

My respect for teachers, which was considerable before this (based on the quality, caring work they did with my children), has increased.

Well, there are certain teaching techniques to keep the class quiet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA :D

What would interest me, how the other teachers in your age are, some could be there for 25 years and already burned out. This is what kids notice too. Having been one of the disruptive kids, I can tell you that motivation is the key factor and this is a two-way-street. Though I must say that a quota of 60% disruptive kids sounds awfully high - we were maybe 10% during my school days.

Motivating is easy said, especially with so many you have to motivate, where individual promotion is neccessary, but undeemable in big classes. Motivation through fear for repercussion does not work, hell we collected letter to the parents and reprimands (word?) as a sport. The fact that you might cut your later career chances is also not really a menace, as the age of 16 is lightyears away when you're in middle school.

I wish that we would get one value back, that we used to have, even among the evil, noisy kids like me: being educated is cool, staying dumb not. This is the mindset that is worth achieving. In contrast to limiting your words to an amount of maybe a dozen words, cause da cool gangstas talk like dis. Or the google mindset: "why should I learn something, when I can get all the infos within a few clicks?" :dead:

This is what makes it harder being a teacher today - also the limited attention span that you mentioned. This really has changed in the information age, you directly compete against all the big, colorful world of social media, iphones, etc, etc.

If I had a creative idea how to fix this, I would be a rich man.
You have the advantage that you're fresh on the job, so you are not as much in patterns as a person might be who is there since 1872. This is an advantage: breaking teaching patterns could work, use the new media, use the things you find out that keep the students occupied in their spare time. For a limited attention span the cure might be to drop an attention bomb every several minutes - as I don't know if you teach chemistry, please don't take the last tip literally :03:.

I was making $25k per year and the benefits were terrible. That was masters scale too. And that was the tradeoff for the better teaching environment.

Ay caramba, I stand corrected about my crazy assumption that some of the money parents pay for private education would go to the ones who actuallywork there...:-?