Unit 731 and 24 hours after Hiroshima

[Ducimus]

I'm posting these two documentaries into one thread because their both controversial subjects. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a moral debate, if it does, its confined into one thread. That said, we've all heard the same arguments for and against, so show some maturity please.


Unit 731 Japanese Human Medical Experiments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hOIpDSWySw&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8E7C3D79D65BDDBE)

24 hours after Hiroshima (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNZudkWcjg8)

[Hylander_1314]

Yep, sucks that it happened or had to happen, but that is war in the modern sense. The gloves are off, and the attitude is that everything that moves is a target.

[stanger]

Looking from those injured point of view: those who perished instantly, were the luckiest.
Just realized that we were lucky cold war stayed just a cold war.

[boonie]

I'm posting these two documentaries into one thread because their both controversial subjects. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a moral debate, if it does, its confined into one thread. That said, we've all heard the same arguments for and against, so show some maturity please.


Unit 731 Japanese Human Medical Experiments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hOIpDSWySw&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL8E7C3D79D65BDDBE)

24 hours after Hiroshima (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNZudkWcjg8)


regarding the unit 731, i remember a long time ago when i was in college, i went to a public library to study with friends for an important exam (highly rare occasion). Ended up didnt study alot for the exams as i went to dig up alot of books regarding ww2 as that was my interest.

Anyway i found this hardcover book titled 'Unit 731' and i am immediately interested, i am a chinese and for us, this topic regarding unit 731 and the massacre of Nanking was to us very similar to what the concentration camp in germany was to the Jews. Most adults Chinese are aware of such attrocities inflicted on our fore fathers or our kind.

I remember this book about this high ranking brass working under General McArthur. He claimed and provided some vague evidence (cant recall clearly) that he was there when General McArthur himself signed the secret agreement btwn the US Government and the Japanese Government agreeing to let free the unit 731 biological weapon research team in return of Japanese Government sharing the results of their research. He was then discredited and given dishonorable discharge after they found out that he was not going to keep his mouth shut re: this matter as i recall.

I was at my teen at that time and was pretty naive on alot of things and this book in quite alot of ways opened up my view on the cold and dark reality of this world. That there really is no justice, and I am very disappointed.

What would have happened if those Nazi that are responsible for the concentration camp had knowledge of rocket science in their hands and happened to have covered their track well and blew up all the evidence like the Japanese did? will the US say "lets trade dude.". I dunno, its just so ugly and unacceptable.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I was at my teen at that time and was pretty naive on alot of things and this book in quite alot of ways opened up my view on the cold and dark reality of this world. That there really is no justice, and I am very disappointed.

What would have happened if those Nazi that are responsible for the concentration camp had knowledge of rocket science in their hands and happened to have covered their track well and blew up all the evidence like the Japanese did? will the US say "lets trade dude.". I dunno, its just so ugly and unacceptable.Speaking strictly about the Nuremberg trials involving Nazi Germany (since many have and/or are still being sought or brought to trial), if you think there is or has been "no justice" against Japanese war criminals, you might find it interesting to learn that the number of Japanese imprisoned or executed for atrocities (immediately after the war), far exceeded those from the Nuremberg trials.

I've have seen different references with slight variations in the numbers but,
"some 5,600 Japanese had been prosecuted in more than 2,200 trials.
Of these men-and a few women-more than 4,400 were convicted, and
about 1,000 were executed. Testifying to the Allies' determination to deal fairly
with the enemy, there had also been about the same number of acquittals."

[bill clarke]

However there were no more war crimes trials of Japanese war criminals agter 1948, and you can point the finger of blame at Mcarthur and Truman for that.

Apparantly it was in order to make sure that they kept Japan in one piece and the Soviets out. I believe one war criminal whose name I do not know even made PM in 1955.

From my point of view this meant many war criminals got off scott free for political expediency.

[donna52522]

What's the point of this thread ?

We all know the Bombs were dropped, We all know nasty things were done with prisoners.

What happened, happened..........nothing said today will change it.

this is such a bull**** thread.

[Dorjun Driver]

What ever Paul Fussell or John Dower said. Other than that, I must agree with Donna52522.

[Ducimus]

What's the point of this thread ?

We all know the Bombs were dropped, We all know nasty things were done with prisoners.

What happened, happened..........nothing said today will change it.

this is such a bull**** thread.

I listen to documentaries while I work. I can do this because I work from home. Whenever i find something ww2 and pacific related, i tend to post them here in case others are interested in watching them.

If you have 4 hours to kill, try this.

Iwo Jima: 36 Days of Hell {1 of 2} (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXN8nRm7_nc)

Iwo Jima: 36 Days of Hell {2 of 2} (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv4VgeoeprI)

Of course if your not interested in learning anything, then yeah i suppose this thread and others like it (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=195997) are utterly pointless. :haha:

[donna52522]

I am always open to learning, I work for my brother in law (hence for for myself). However somethings are overkilled when it comes to learning.

Many of our youths don't want to hear about it, because it's drummed into their heads.

I for one think we didn't drop enough bombs...as Gen Patton said, "let's do it while we have the army's over here to do it with".

But would that end war, I doubt it. People have always killed other people and nothing will stop that.....and how people kill other people, or treat others subjugated to them (prisoners or so-called citizens), will always be under the whim of those who have the least morals.

That's all I'll say....I have neither the time nor do I care to argue with an old stubborn guy who thinks he's correct about everything.

[WernherVonTrapp]

However there were no more war crimes trials of Japanese war criminals agter 1948, and you can point the finger of blame at Mcarthur and Truman for that.

Apparantly it was in order to make sure that they kept Japan in one piece and the Soviets out. I believe one war criminal whose name I do not know even made PM in 1955.

From my point of view this meant many war criminals got off scott free for political expediency.The numbers I posted for those tried and executed for war crimes do not reflect any of the numbers tried and convicted by the Soviet Union, who also held their own trials. The Japanese Prime Minister in 1955 was Ichiro Hatoyama (not to be confused with Iichiro Hatoyama).

"He was about to become prime minister in 1946, but was barred from politics for five years by Supreme Commander Allied Powers because they thought he had co-operated with the authoritarian government in the 1930s and 1940s." As far as I know, he was never accused or named as a war criminal.

I prefer to believe that the Japanese population was not executed indiscriminately during the war crimes trials because we (the Allies) were not the same as them (the Axis powers). Suspicion is not the same as proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't believe you, or anyone else, would want to be convicted and executed on mere suspicion.
Many people, including many Japanese citizens, believed that Hirohito should've been tried for his part in the war and his Army's atrocities.

I'll be the first to admit that I think MacArthur committed some very questionable acts (or failures to act) during the war, but to suggest that he and Truman are complicit, or to blame for not administering proper justice and turning a blind-eye, without considering all the ramifications of the difficult decisions they were faced with, is to suggest that we should have acted in the same manner as the Japanese and Germans did in their execution of power over their subjugates.

"To err is human; to forgive, divine."
-Alexander Pope

[Krauter]

I find that I enjoy these theads just for something to watch as well. However, I am also finding that even after I watch a documentary, or read an article about an even I've read about a million times, I always learn something new. I think that with events like these, because they are so controversial, you will almost always learn something new about it. It's just sometimes difficult to pick through the BS to get to it.

Edit: I also think we need to relax. Duci is just posting a link. There were no statements trying to say who'se right or wrong. If you don't want to read/watch/debate about it. Don't watch it and don't post.

[Ducimus]

That's all I'll say....I have neither the time nor do I care to argue with an old stubborn guy who thinks he's correct about everything.

Nobody is forcing you to read any of the threads or posts I make. If you find me and what I post so disagreeable, i suggest you use the ignore function and move on. Because, as "a stubborn old guy who thinks he's correct about everything", i'm certainly not going to change anything i do on the likes of you.

[AVGWarhawk]

You whippersnapper :O:

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, I was having a good day until I watched those two videos. It is as if these were Martians or something certainly not human. The atomic bomb I can understand. It was a calculation of the numbers who would die in an invasion of Japan, both American and Japanese, against the numbers to be killed in the atomic attacks. There is no doubt that the bombs were more merciful. And there is no doubt that they were terrible as well.

But Unit 731. How can human beings conceive of such a thing? And how can they actually put it into action? And then, how can their conquerers blithely overlook the horror that was done and just make a deal to absolve some of the most monstrous people of all history. War must destroy the morals of all participants equally.

I'm personally even more angry about my government's granting of immunity than I am of the Japanese government's bankrolling of the whole thing. That made up participants, equally as guilty as they. Then why fight the war? If you are willing to fight and die for right, why not be willing to live in the right afterwards?

[WernherVonTrapp]

I think I saw "24 Hours..." recently on either Discovery, or maybe National Geographic channel. I couldn't watch "Unit 731" because I was prompted to log-in at YouTube. I tried three times but it wouldn't accept my username/password.:hmmm:

[WernherVonTrapp]

Ahh, finally I was able to watch it in it's entirety. I found that part 3 was the only section that required a log-on. I watched all the other sections on YouTube and found part 3 on another website. What a process.:huh: Still, with some variations, the series seemed commensurate with what I've read about Nazis medical experiments in Europe. I wonder what would've happened if the Americans (in Europe), had not found the evidence of medical experiments before the Nazis were able to destroy it, or even conceal it for future bargaining. The only difference, aside from mass exterminations using various inhumane methods in Europe, was the scale with which the Japanese deployed their biological experiments. The Japanese seemed more indifferent to life in general, but then again, they used to kill themselves en masse with ritual seppuku or in pointless Banzai charges against vastly superior firepower. In that respect, their inhumanity is no surprise. I've read some equally horrific stories about Nazi medical experiments, some of which seemed to have no medical purpose whatsoever.

[Rockin Robbins]

I have always heard from people who have lived in the Orient that life has a completely different value to them than it does for us, that it is much more expendable. This is said to be true, whether it be Japanese, Chinese, Korean or others.

Their societies are highly stratified and it is as if members of "lower" strata are not even humans with the right to live, except at the pleasure of their "betters." I'm sure they're fully polluted by western thought today and what emerges will be a stronger, more resilient and resourceful Oriental than what was before. But I hope they have also learned some "humanity."

I don't think we would have taught them "humanity" by treating them with the same inhumanity that they doled out to their victims. I believe it was with good purpose that MacArthur called an end to the witch hunts in 1948 and said that's it. The crimes are paid for and now we move forward.

After all, the goal was not punishment, but the emergence of Japan as a new creature, strong, independent, capable and responsible in its citizenship in the world. So let's judge MacArthur's actions by the results. Is Japan a first-rate nation today, prosperous, indpendent, moral, non-aggressive and a good citizen of the world? If you agree that it is, and I can't imagine how you can think Japan is not, then you have to admit that forgiveness works better than punishment as a motivator of future behavior. First you establish the bedrock of what is right and what is wrong. Then you draw a line in the sand, cross it together and proceed side by side as friends.

Otherwise any peace that resulted from WWII would only have been a short preparation for the next war, as the 1920s and 1930s were for WWII after WWI, which ended with pettiness and revenge. Victory cannot be obtained by revenge.

[u crank]

After all, the goal was not punishment, but the emergence of Japan as a new creature, strong, independent, capable and responsible in its citizenship in the world. So let's judge MacArthur's actions by the results. Is Japan a first-rate nation today, prosperous, indpendent, moral, non-aggressive and a good citizen of the world? If you agree that it is, and I can't imagine how you can think Japan is not, then you have to admit that forgiveness works better than punishment as a motivator of future behavior. First you establish the bedrock of what is right and what is wrong. Then you draw a line in the sand, cross it together and proceed side by side as friends.

Agreed. Only way it can be. Well said.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I have always heard from people who have lived in the Orient that life has a completely different value to them than it does for us, that it is much more expendable. This is said to be true, whether it be Japanese, Chinese, Korean or others.

Their societies are highly stratified and it is as if members of "lower" strata are not even humans with the right to live, except at the pleasure of their "betters." I'm sure they're fully polluted by western thought today and what emerges will be a stronger, more resilient and resourceful Oriental than what was before. But I hope they have also learned some "humanity."

I don't think we would have taught them "humanity" by treating them with the same inhumanity that they doled out to their victims. I believe it was with good purpose that MacArthur called an end to the witch hunts in 1948 and said that's it. The crimes are paid for and now we move forward.

After all, the goal was not punishment, but the emergence of Japan as a new creature, strong, independent, capable and responsible in its citizenship in the world. So let's judge MacArthur's actions by the results. Is Japan a first-rate nation today, prosperous, indpendent, moral, non-aggressive and a good citizen of the world? If you agree that it is, and I can't imagine how you can think Japan is not, then you have to admit that forgiveness works better than punishment as a motivator of future behavior. First you establish the bedrock of what is right and what is wrong. Then you draw a line in the sand, cross it together and proceed side by side as friends.

Otherwise any peace that resulted from WWII would only have been a short preparation for the next war, as the 1920s and 1930s were for WWII after WWI, which ended with pettiness and revenge. Victory cannot be obtained by revenge.Very well put, and I agree wholeheartedly.:up: