Satire verboten: Pope vs German magazine

[Penguin]

[....]
On Tuesday, a state court in Hamburg issued a temporary injunction against the magazine, a court spokesperson said. Under threat of a fine, Titanic is no longer allowed to distribute the issue and the picture is not allowed to be published on the Internet. Issues already in circulation, however, don't have to be recalled, the court ruled.
In the current cover, Pope Benedict appears in a religious cassock that is soiled yellow below the waist. Above the picture appears the headline "Hallelujah in the Vatican: The leak has been found!" On the back cover of the issue, the pope appears from behind and the stains are brown rather than yellow.
[...]

Read the full story here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/pope-benedict-xvi-sues-german-satire-magazine-titanic-a-843690.html)

The answer from Titanic's editor-in-.chief is hilarious: "Benedict must have misunderstood," says Fischer. The title, he says, merely shows a pope that had spilled his drink when celebrating with a glass of soda after the Vatileaks scandal was solved, he says. "Everyone knows that the Pope is a big fan of Fanta," says Fischer.

:rotfl2:

I have no idea of the subsim policy regarding images of stained popes, so here's a link to the front and back cover: cover (http://taz.de/uploads/images/684x342/papst_titanic_1007.jpg)

edit: added poll

[Tribesman]

Did the vatican deliberately try to get the pictures the maximum amount of publicity?
Pity the vatican isnt so keen to go to the courts over their real stains

[Betonov]

Toilet humour :down:

But the punchline is a winner :D Leak found

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

:rotfl2:

[Buddahaid]

Well no fatwa issued. Oops, wrong fantasy league.

[Dowly]

Pity the vatican isnt so keen to go to the courts over their real stains

Exactly! :up:

[nikimcbee]

Do Germans have the right to free speech? What is the law regarding this kinda stuff? (in Germany)

[Tribesman]

Do Germans have the right to free speech? What is the law regarding this kinda stuff? (in Germany)
It isn't a freedom of speech issue, its infringement of the vaticans marketing rights as their commercial image.

[Skybird]

Do Germans have the right to free speech? What is the law regarding this kinda stuff? (in Germany)


Free speech is guaranteed by the Basic Law, also free press. But both get underhandedly eroded by the poltical establishement, by bringing their personnel into key positions of according organsiations, and gremia. Most obviously this is the case with the first and second channels of the state TV that gets fiannced by mandatory fees that even mjst be payed if you have not TV or TV receiver device like internet or handy (it is a 1-per-household tax, period).

However, there also is §166 of the penalty code which is called the blasphemy-paragraph over here, making it punishable to insult and berate religious confessions when the way in which it is done is disturbing public peace. - The most famous case I am aware of when this paragraph was used, dates back to the mid-80s, when a young man called the Catholic church "a criminal organisation" in a discussion. He was brought to court. However, his defence was top class and put together a written analysis of the church's historic record of conduct that made such a convincing aergument of that it was criminal and is criminal indeed, that the young man was set free and the analysis today can be bought in book form in German bookshops. It became a beststeller back then.

Also there is the EU and it's Charta of Human Rights that are legally bindingly linked and installked by the Eurpean treaty, making it mandatory for all member state to install according legislation. That charta rates any criticism of religion as a punishable offence the monent somebody complains about his relgion criticised and claiming he is insulted, because that now officially rates as "discrimination" - and that is what the charge is about then. - This European law now has been the basis for several cases in several European countries over the past couple of years, most famously the Geert Wilders casse, but there were also such courts held in several other countries, mostly against political prominents or prominent critics. It always was about Islam.

Ironically, the church is too late. Some weeks ago I found a cartoon somewhere on the German web, that in principle is a variation of the theme used for that magazine's frontpage now. If they really have such a good direct wire to God, I wonder why He has not made them aware while there was time, or why He did not take care of the offenders himself. :D

[Penguin]

Do Germans have the right to free speech? What is the law regarding this kinda stuff? (in Germany)

It's complicated. Generally speaking, freedom of speech has a much higher value in regards to what's allowed in the US than here.
Here is the relevant section. It's among the first 20 sections of the German constitution which describe the basic and unalterable rights.


Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

(3) Art and scholarship, research, and teaching shall be free. The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution.


You see that the conflict is between subsection 2 (personal honor of the pope) and subsection 1 (freedom of press) and 3 (freedom of art)

I haven't read the decision yet, should be available tomorrow, then I can tell more on which sections the decision is based.

So talking out of my unstained arse, I'd say the general laws, mentioned in (2) which can be used to limit free speech in this case could be in this example §103 Defamation of organs and representatives of foreign states (if the pope is considered the head of the state of Vatican) or even the blasphemy law(!), section 166. A private citizen could base his claims on section 185 or 186 - Insult/defamation.
You can find the criminal code here: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/index.html

[Catfish]

Hilarious :rotfl2:

(And if one would not know the pope is the pope, he would be in an asylum.)

[Penguin]

It isn't a freedom of speech issue, its infringement of the vaticans marketing rights as their commercial image.

Given the number of law suits the Titanic already had, it would be foolish if they used an image of which they didn't acquire the publishing rights before.

In general, German citizens have a "right of possession" of their own picture, meaning that no pics shall be published without the person's consent. This however goes not for persons of "contemporary history", which the pope definitely is. (§22/23 KunstUrhG - sorry, no English version available online)

Altering a work from someone else to create a new (art)work, is also allowed - if there is enough "threshold of originality" - a definition that often leads to law suits. For example you are free to cover a music title without permission from the artist. In the example of the pope pic, the question is if 2 photoshop stains are enough to create a new piece of art.

[Tribesman]

Given the number of law suits the Titanic already had, it would be foolish if they used an image of which they didn't acquire the publishing rights before.

But the pope is a marketing brand for the catholic church which is itself a marketing brand.
Its the same as an image from any other business or in this case the "celebrity" is a brand just like a "celebrity" such as Paris Hilton.
Edit to add, I can't figure out if I am insulting the pope or hilton more thereor insulting them both the same or is it just insulting other celebrities

[Penguin]

But the pope is a marketing brand for the catholic church which is itself a marketing brand.
Its the same as an image from any other business or in this case the "celebrity" is a brand just like a "celebrity" such as Paris Hilton.
Edit to add, I can't figure out if I am insulting the pope or hilton more thereor insulting them both the same or is it just insulting other celebrities

Well, celebs are first regarded as persons here - if they did not register their name as a brand which many do. If an entity does this, a brand is protected for 10 years, which can be extended if the owner wants to do so, again for 10 years.
However if you would impose as Paris Hilton or the catholic church, you would violate section 12 (http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/englisch_bgb.html#p0041)of the German Civil Code (the right to a name). Not even regarding the laws of good taste you'd violate if you'd do so! :O:
Still if you take a picture of Paris Hilton in public, she can't do crap to stop you from publishing it, no permission is needed, no royalties have to be paid. The permission to use the Titanic photo was probably bought from a picture agency to which the photographer sold the publishing rights.

[MH]

It is offencive to pope i guess ...and funny.
Pope is public figure just like any politician so should be prepared to have some of it.

[Skybird]

The magazine's staff said that it is all a misunderstanding. Indeed they meant to show how the Pope was enjoying and celebrated something (forgot what they said it was), and that he only spilled some orange lemonade during that, which can be seen on the picture. They plan to form a delegation that will go to Rome and they look forward to discuss the matter in the spirit of friendship with a highranking Vatican delegation and the pope himself. Somebody also said they would welcome Italian and German politicians to join the Vatican-Titanic-summit.

:har:

[Skybird]

Imagine they did this with some Imam who called for the assassination of infidels. People in 40 or 50 states would be in the streets now, yelling hysterically and showing red faces, probably trampling some smaller guys in their crowds to death again. Wetsern politiicans would warn of not absuing free speech, and to practice self-constraint. Everybody would warn his neighbour to be sensible for Muslim feelings and how precious and holy it all is.

Seen that way, they really picked the wrong target. :smug:

[Tribesman]

Imagine they did this with some Imam who called for the assassination of infidels. People in 40 or 50 states would be in the streets now, yelling hysterically and showing red faces
Yes dear:doh:
Political satire of crazy fundy imans is widespread, so far I cannot recall crowds on the streets over it. Dr Hook even got his own puppet who was featured doing his crazy fundy death to the unbeliever rants.
No protests, they threw the dickhead in jail and made even more hours of jokes about it, still no protests.
Khomeni was a regular target of ridicule, any protests ovetr it? Nope.

[Penguin]

Titanic magazine reacted to the censorship with a new starting image on their webpage:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5691/titanicjpg.jpg

The pope in exhilaration!
:DL

Meanwhile some politicians show their understanding of freedom: Thomas Goppel, a christdemocrat from Bavaria, MoP and an ex-minister, in short a guy who should know some basics of our law, said: "If it was up to me, I would revoke his writing license." :nope:
Dear Herr Goppel, neither in Germany nor in Bavaria there is something like a license to write required, even christian fundamentalists like you can put down their mental bs into writing without asking for permission. If you don't like it, move to Iran! :shifty:


Imagine they did this with some Imam who called for the assassination of infidels. People in 40 or 50 states would be in the streets now, yelling hysterically and showing red faces, probably trampling some smaller guys in their crowds to death again. Wetsern politiicans would warn of not absuing free speech, and to practice self-constraint. Everybody would warn his neighbour to be sensible for Muslim feelings and how precious and holy it all is.

Seen that way, they really picked the wrong target. :smug:

Eeehm, Titanic has a long and proud history of peeing off anyone. A few buzzwords: "Schröder setzt sich durch", "Shalom Ziegen....." or the "Mohammed-lookalike-contest" :know:

They even provide a service for muslims :

http://www.titanic-magazin.de/typo3temp/pics/a959126eb2.jpg

Here do our cartoonists live!

[Catfish]

... and "Bring the boys back home", the bones thing :88)

[JU_88]

Not offensive to me, I cant speak for Catholics though. :O:

[Skybird]

Eeehm, Titanic has a long and proud history ...


Öh - I was sarcastic. ;) I meant they could have caused more action in the world if they would have picked the other target (Muhammad again or so).

I would like to see MAD taking on Muhammad. :lol:

[Platapus]

Read the full story here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/pope-benedict-xvi-sues-german-satire-magazine-titanic-a-843690.html)




All I gotta say is that is one creepy looking pope you got there. :huh: