One shot kills

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Hi all.

Reading the SHIV manual, and noticing the estimated number of torps required to sink ships of various categories.

I remember back in SHIII that a well placed impact torp under the first mast of merchants would in the majority of cases sink the ship over a period of time through slow flooding. It may take hours, or even a day.

Will I get the same result in SHIV, or has the damage model changed.

Also, does anyone have any guidelines for sinking more tonnage with less torps?

Thanks,

[doulos05]

Short answer, kind of. if you're using stock, you get big booms and it can be possible. With some of the Natural Sinking Mods and such, that's not as true. You've got to find the sweet spot, but generally right under the stack (not the mast, the stack) tends to sink them fairly effectively.

[Platapus]

It also depends on the game setting. If you have duds historically selected, "one shot- one kill" is a bit risky.

Please remember that the objective is to sink ships, not conserve torpedoes.

I tend to use one torpedo for every 3000-5000 tons with a minimum of 2 (I play with duds on).

However, if it has been an empty patrol, and I come across my first juicy cargo ship, I will gladly launch four torpedoes.

The only time I get stingy with my torps is the few times I am against a convoy. Then I will choose to shoot three ships with two torps each (dud rate). I figure out that time is on my side. If I get a slow-sinker, I still get credit, and if I only wound one, I stand a good chance of catching up with it later.

But if it is only a single ship? 3-4 torps for the kill.

As for where to aim? doulos05 had it right. If you want to shoot only one torp, aim for center of mass. Helps with targeting errors and most ships don't like taking one there.

I usually do quarters, myself - half way between middle and bow (first and second quarter), middle (second and third quarter), and halfway between middle and stern(third and fourth quarter). That seems to work best for me under most circumstances.

Contact pistol at minimum depth.

[Hylander_1314]

As Platapus said, it does depend on torpedo dud settings. Also, it "does" depend on where you hit the ship. I have found, the big 10k tankers, if I aim for the forward mast, and one for the aft mast, the fish that hits the forward area can sometimes cause the boat to break in two.

The large troop ships, I have found over time, if you hit them in the area of the aft engine room / boiler room, will usually end up sinking them with one hit.

Regular freighters, it depends on their cargo. If they carry munitions, they go up in a huge erecption of smoke and flames. If they carry non-volital cargo, it can take 2 to 4 torpedoes to sink them for sure.

The worst one I had, took 6 or 7 fish to finally make it go under. Waited 2 days in the area, but because it was armed both bow and stern, I couldn't surface to use the deckgun on it.

Also, I use mostly the TMO Supermod, and swith to FORTS for a different change of pace. And RFB that I tweak for personal use.

But in the end, yes, you can get a one shot one kill from time to time.

[Armistead]

One is to learn the different cargo types, so you can tell what's loaded on deck. You really have to play with ME and load cargo to learn the different types from munitions to just basic freight. Many ships have internal and external cargo, fuel, oil and ammo will cause a ship to blow. Many ships carry no cargo. It's hard to sink those with one.

One tactic that helps, if you see some ships loaded and some not, shoot those, but if you get one torp in a ship and it doesn't sink, often another ship will come near it that may be loaded, it you time it right you can hit a loaded ship and it's blast explosion will take out nearby ships, but your sub must do damage to the ship before you get credit. If you get in big convoys and attack and they start milling around and many ships are loaded, time it you can hit one ship and the explosions domino as ships blow up each other. I once sunk 8 ships with one torp this way, but you only get credit for the one you did damage too.

If you get ships slow or dead in the water, wait for the escorts to leave and finish them off with the deckgun, just know how your mod works and gun ranges, sometimes best to do it at night.

[Carthaginian]

Something I have noticed is that it is impossible to hit immediately below the stack. The targeting routine contained within the game seems to have all your torps hit abaft the stack- sometimes nearly at the screws. Is there anything that corrects that problem?

[donna52522]

Something I have noticed is that it is impossible to hit immediately below the stack. The targeting routine contained within the game seems to have all your torps hit abaft the stack- sometimes nearly at the screws. Is there anything that corrects that problem?

I've hit ships directly under the funnel many times. Are you playing auto or manual targeting? Back when I played auto targeting I noticed that the torpedoes fall a bit short on moving targets, you can compensate by adjusting the torpedo angle by a degree or so, depending on the range.

[Carthaginian]

I've hit ships directly under the funnel many times. Are you playing auto or manual targeting? Back when I played auto targeting I noticed that the torpedoes fall a bit short on moving targets, you can compensate by adjusting the torpedo angle by a degree or so, depending on the range.

Auto targeting- and that effect is precisely what you are talking about.
I'm wanting to get into manual targeting... but I haven't gotten the time together to teach myself how to do it.

[donna52522]

Auto targeting- and that effect is precisely what you are talking about.
I'm wanting to get into manual targeting... but I haven't gotten the time together to teach myself how to do it.

You can still change the torpedo angle on the dial while using auto targeting. :DL

[RickC Sniper]

Also make sure you open the torpedo doors ahead of time. Not doing that delays the firing procedure and causes your hits to be aft, or miss aft entirely.

[donna52522]

Also make sure you open the torpedo doors ahead of time. Not doing that delays the firing procedure and causes your hits to be aft, or miss aft entirely.

Good point :DL

[Armistead]

The main thing to remember is you're not going to get many one torp kills, unless the ship happens to be loaded with ammo or fuel, depending on stock or mods, I would say only 30% of ships carry such cargo.

The other issue is because of ships being able to go into turbo speed or stops, they often can dodge one torp, spreads are used to fix the ships speed, simply if you aim at the bow, he can slow quickly to make it miss forward, so more torps to cover the length of the ship will get some hits.

Also, even if one torp hits, the ship may not lose speed, you'll be evading why it takes off, escaping or requiring you to end around and attack again, risk getting killed...If you can pull off an attack without the escorts catching you, it's better to finish ships off quickly with one attack.

If you're wanting high tonnage scores, don't waste torps on small merchants, sink only big ones, go after capital ships, BB's, Carriers, etc., Learn to damage ships and make them blow up near each other, to take each other out. Use the DG, 40bofars do great damage.

My highest tonnage on one patrol, no refits using TMO/RSRD in 1944 with a very hard tweak AI was 278K tons...., Maybe one day I'll try and break the 300K ton mark.

[Carthaginian]

You can still change the torpedo angle on the dial while using auto targeting. :DL

Yes Ma'am!
I have already been doing that to a limited extent... generally for a spread effect. I guess I'm going to have to figure out the 'speed error' that my crew is making when launching torpedoes and have a pre-prepared offset to compensate. Gotta hit those boiler/engine rooms- big rooms mean faster flooding and faster sinking!

[Armistead]

Yes Ma'am!
I have already been doing that to a limited extent... generally for a spread effect. I guess I'm going to have to figure out the 'speed error' that my crew is making when launching torpedoes and have a pre-prepared offset to compensate. Gotta hit those boiler/engine rooms- big rooms mean faster flooding and faster sinking!

I shoot spreads by aiming by the wire. I use the stad, etc., just when I get ready to shoot, I unlock target, place the wire where I want to aim, set a new bearing and fire. You need to set a new bearing for each aiming point right before you shoot.....

[doulos05]

Actually, I think the bit about opening doors is likely your problem, particularly if you're hitting as far aft of MoT as the screws. Opening the torpedo doors takes 2-3 seconds. That's definitely enough to make you miss MoT all the way back to the screws. As soon as I ID the target, I decide which fish I'm firing, set them up (speed, pistol, depth), and open their respective doors (press Q while the tube is selected).

Additionally, if the target notices your torpedo, they will take evasive action. This almost certainly includes a radical change in speed (either Ahead Flank or Back Emergency, depending on what the captain thinks will avoid the fish). That also explains misses astern of aiming point.

[Hylander_1314]

Also, firing from too far away. The point is, to get in as close as possible, and let 'em have it. And yes as stated above, have the torpedoes set as per pistol, depth, and if there is an option, speed settings.

Open the outter tube doors, the "Q" key, and even then, I just aim a little ahead of where I want the torpedoes to hit.

Over time, you good a estimating it for different distances. If you like longer range shots, then load up with the Mk 18 electric fish, but they run slower and have a short range. But I add a bit of lead when I aim using them.

[torpedobait]

I'm certainly no expert - I use auto-targeting, but one factor that was mentioned above that might have escaped your notice is the Locked Target. I rarely lock onto a target, which allows me to better place torpedos using the quadrant spacing. If you leave the target locked and it is speeding, espcially if you use "slow" settings on the torpedo, you will hit towards the stern on slow to medium speed ships, and may miss entirely on the faster ones, especially if you are outside 1,000 yards.

Try that too. :salute:

[Carthaginian]

Actually, I think the bit about opening doors is likely your problem

No, my tube doors are always open- all of them.
I open tube doors generally on the surface, or as far out as possible if submerged. This is one of the loudest things that a sub can do... so it is done when it is least likely to give the escorts a 'hot noise' to home in on.:03: Once I line up my shot, I have already done everything necessary to make the attack happen except fire the fish.

I also am sure to lock the target... generally on several occasions, as the strength of my shooting solution depends on observations during this period- and consequently, the more times I observe/lock the target, the better my solution will be. Whether this is entirely true in game mechanics is beside the point- that's the way it is in life... so that's how I play it.

[twm47099]

No, my tube doors are always open- all of them.
I open tube doors generally on the surface, or as far out as possible if submerged. This is one of the loudest things that a sub can do... so it is done when it is least likely to give the escorts a 'hot noise' to home in on.:03: Once I line up my shot, I have already done everything necessary to make the attack happen except fire the fish.

I also am sure to lock the target... generally on several occasions, as the strength of my shooting solution depends on observations during this period- and consequently, the more times I observe/lock the target, the better my solution will be. Whether this is entirely true in game mechanics is beside the point- that's the way it is in life... so that's how I play it.

I found out the hard way that when you go deep all your outer doors close. So if you dive below about 100 ft to avoid an escort you will have to reopen your doors when you are back at shooting depth.

Also make sure that you turn the PK off and back on when changing targets. I haven't quite figured out all of the reasons (and when you can get away w/o the PK being on in auto targeting mode), but if you do it and you see a big change in the target dial, you needed to do it. I have had cases where the PK had to be cycled when the target I was tracking changed course. Not sure what was going there either.

Another thing -- if you are firing multiple shots at one target, auto targeting sets the torpedo depth for the selected tube only when you Lock the target in the scope. So if you preset a certain depth (I like under the keel shots with no duds set in the options) and then lock a target, the sim will set the depth that it feels is optimum, but only for the tube selected when the target is locked.

Tom

[Armistead]

No, my tube doors are always open- all of them.
I open tube doors generally on the surface, or as far out as possible if submerged. This is one of the loudest things that a sub can do... so it is done when it is least likely to give the escorts a 'hot noise' to home in on.:03: Once I line up my shot, I have already done everything necessary to make the attack happen except fire the fish.

I also am sure to lock the target... generally on several occasions, as the strength of my shooting solution depends on observations during this period- and consequently, the more times I observe/lock the target, the better my solution will be. Whether this is entirely true in game mechanics is beside the point- that's the way it is in life... so that's how I play it.

You don't have to worry about things like torp doors causing a noise factor. The game basically has one overall noise generic value, other noises, bells, men, battlestations, torp doors, have no noise value, only silent running will decrease the value, other things have no effect either way. For instance, you can have silent running on and your men still pump water out....enemy can't hear it.

[doulos05]

Also make sure that you turn the PK off and back on when changing targets. I haven't quite figured out all of the reasons (and when you can get away w/o the PK being on in auto targeting mode), but if you do it and you see a big change in the target dial, you needed to do it. I have had cases where the PK had to be cycled when the target I was tracking changed course. Not sure what was going there either.


PK can make you miss astern. It seems to consistently underestimate speed.

[Carthaginian]

Didn't know that there were only two noise values.
I knew a couple of nukes and one diesel boat sailor (D.B.F.) and they taught me all that could cause noise... so I have been playing it safe- you can never be too quiet, after all. I'd have my crew dipping the handles of their wrenches in rubber if that was an option. ;)

[Bubblehead1980]

PK can make you miss astern. It seems to consistently underestimate speed.

The PK does not estimate the speed.YOU enter the speed into the TDC, the PK just does a constant update of range , bearing and AOB once entered, it bases this data on the speed entered.The solution is only as good as the info entered. Enter the data when your target is approaching from the port and has a 20 degree AOB, enter range, bearing, aob, and speed, then click the PK, drop the scope and watch the solution update.Technically speaking, you could never raise the scope again and if the target does not change its speed or course, you could fire and have a high chance of getting hits.I prefer to update range and bearing until the last second before firing and use a new bearing for each torpedo so they hit at different points(can use the spred knob for this but prefer this method) but a few times I have had to go below scope depth to avoid an escort that was close but was not quite ready to fire.Gato's tubes can stay open up to 150 feet or so, so while I dove, the TDC kept updating the data, when the range was down to 1200 on the TDC and the AOB was was shown as 85, I let my torpedoes fly, used the spread knob accordingly, guess what? 3 of 4 hit and sunk a large tanker.The PK was the big advantage US TDC's had over other countries and works fine in the game.Some people expect a modern fire control computer lol, its def not that, the info you enter must be accurate, but it works fine.PK does not cause a miss.Initial speed input may have been off, target may have sped up slightly(they do it and its a risk run if fire without more observations) or changed course slightly, throwing your bearing off.

[Rockin Robbins]

If you're missing astern there's something wrong with your procedure. I propose that it's probably that you are entering the information in the wrong order, since the order of operations is almost never talked about and of course is not in the manual, which seems to be a reprint of the manual for a 1955 Sunbeam Toaster, not a game manual.

When you are entering info to the TDC it is very important that the last piece entered is the range/bearing of the target. And the reason is very apparent if you can visualize how the TDC with position keeper works.

The TDC merely establishes a target position, course and speed. It's a dot with attributes. And that data is good for the instant your button is stabbed. If you were to stab the button, wait ten seconds and then fire a torpedo, guess what?

The target has moved past your aiming point and when the torpedo hits, if it hits, it will be behind the point you aimed at when you stabbed the send range/bearing to TDC button. That's pretty clear, no? So you can miss astern with the PK off. It's easy. Just take too long between your observation and when you fire.

Now lets involve the PK. Instead of a fixed target point, the PK actually takes that target point and moves it along the course you tell it to and at the speed you tell the TDC. Then that target point actually follows the real target over time. In theory you can fire at any time you want and the solution remains good, unlike the old non-PK TDC.

So lets do it wrong. We'll use our periscope and stadimeter to get the bearing and range of the target. As soon as we stab the send to TDC button the TDC plots the position of the target, right on top of the real target. So far, so good.

Now you do your mental gymnastics and get ready to enter the AoB of the target, which tells the TDC the target course. You enter the AoB and stab that send to TDC button. What's happened? Not much. The target position is right where you told it to be and it is moving at zero knots in the direction you just told it. That means it's not moving.

Finally you enter the target speed and press that send to TDC button. NOW the artificial target point begins moving at the course and speed of the real target. But since you just told it to begin moving and it's been fifteen or twenty seconds since you told the TDC where the target is, the artificial target is quite a distance behind the real one! You are going to miss astern aren't you?

How do you prevent this? Just be sure you tell the TDC target AoB and speed first, THEN as a last step pop up the scope and take your range/bearing observation. Since you have already told the PK how to move the target point, you'll hit the send range/bearing to TDC button, the TDC will plot that artificial target right on top of the real one and the PK will immediately begin moving it to follow your input course and speed.

Order of operations is critical. You won't read this anywhere else, no matter how hard you search. I can't tell you why because it is critical information. NOW you will not miss astern.:salute:

[Armistead]

RR makes a good point. Really doesn't matter how or what order you get speed, AOB, etc as your setting up, but your last setup, speed better be set first before your last range. If I'm setting up, my PK is unlocked, I do my stads until I have speed and course, obvious to get speed you have to stad first with ranges. Once I have speed and course, I set those, think most know the enemies course gives you a perfect aob. Before I shoot I will take one last range/bearing, adjust AOB to course, lokc PK,then unlock target and shoot by the wire, sending a new bearing for each shot.,

Course many just get speed course first using 3 minute with contacts on or radar with off.

I made the best night surface long range radar shoot I think I ever have last night with cams and contacts off, shot from almost 11,000 yards with the torp hitting about 8000 yards on a BB, four out of six torps hit. I was lucky to get my torps in between the front and flank escorts without them being seen. I was in 200ft water depth, clear night with 0 winds...I was 7nms away running when the torps hit.

[Carthaginian]

Rockin Robbins...

If DeLand wasn't so far from Mobile that the heat would pop it, there'd be a beer in the mail.:salute:
Best explanation on PK I saw so far- and the first one that broke it down enough I could understand it in seconds.

[Platapus]

That RR is one of them smart guys we have here. :yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

Thank you Carthaginian. Now I really simplified it because the situation can be worse! What if your last target's course and speed is still sitting in the PK and you stab that button. The artificial target is going to tear away from the real one in some random direction you'll never figure out what went wrong!:har:

I'm glad I was able to connect the dots for you. You know I always figure that if people don't understand a complicated concept it isn't because they are dumb, it's because the eggheads in charge of the concept don't think it's necessary to explain to anybody else how it works. Most ideas, looked at from a strange and screwy angle, my specialty :D, become pretty easy to understand. And most of the time you don't understand them because somebody didn't think it was important to communicate clearly.

[doulos05]

The PK does not estimate the speed.YOU enter the speed into the TDC, the PK just does a constant update of range , bearing and AOB once entered, it bases this data on the speed entered.The solution is only as good as the info entered. Enter the data when your target is approaching from the port and has a 20 degree AOB, enter range, bearing, aob, and speed, then click the PK, drop the scope and watch the solution update.Technically speaking, you could never raise the scope again and if the target does not change its speed or course, you could fire and have a high chance of getting hits.I prefer to update range and bearing until the last second before firing and use a new bearing for each torpedo so they hit at different points(can use the spred knob for this but prefer this method) but a few times I have had to go below scope depth to avoid an escort that was close but was not quite ready to fire.Gato's tubes can stay open up to 150 feet or so, so while I dove, the TDC kept updating the data, when the range was down to 1200 on the TDC and the AOB was was shown as 85, I let my torpedoes fly, used the spread knob accordingly, guess what? 3 of 4 hit and sunk a large tanker.The PK was the big advantage US TDC's had over other countries and works fine in the game.Some people expect a modern fire control computer lol, its def not that, the info you enter must be accurate, but it works fine.PK does not cause a miss.Initial speed input may have been off, target may have sped up slightly(they do it and its a risk run if fire without more observations) or changed course slightly, throwing your bearing off.

What I meant when I said that was, every time i use the PK, when I reconfirm the actual position, the PK's position is consistently, observably, behind target's actual position. This occurs whether I'm using auto-targeting or manual targeting and regardless of the order I enter data into the PK.

I have noticed that it seems most evident during high seas. This is the opposite from what I would have expected (I would have expected high seas to lead to the target making inconsistent progress and lagging behind the PK plot, but the opposite seems to be happening, with the PK plot lagging the target), and again, this occurs irregardless of whether I'm using auto- or manual targeting.

[Carthaginian]

Thank you Carthaginian. Now I really simplified it because the situation can be worse! What if your last target's course and speed is still sitting in the PK and you stab that button. The artificial target is going to tear away from the real one in some random direction you'll never figure out what went wrong!:har:


LOL- had that happened to me, I would have probably executed a 'forcible uninstall' of SH4 (a.k.a. ripping out the hard drive with my teeth).

[TorpX]

RR:

Good explanation there. :up:

[merc4ulfate]

I run TMO and RSRD

I have, some, one shot kills :yeah: and boy are they spectacular. I have played with depth settings and I have discovered as I think other have mentioned in separate discussions that getting a pop closer to the keel will greater your chances of getting that one shot kill.

That being said the depth setting is a bit boinked at times :damn: and I completely miss LOL

At the shallowest setting I get a greater hit ratio but use more fish and longer sink times. Closer to the keel I get a much better fish to kill ratio and just love the ones where the keel breaks and watch as two parts of a while sink to the bottom.

I saw one actually flip the forward section in air once and then come back down facing the stern then sink ... looked cool. :sunny:

Mark:arrgh!:

[mobucks]

I used to get near 100% "kill with one torpedo" success when using magnetic detonator set a few feet under the keel. Every ship breaks in two. This was with TMO post 1943 when most of the problems with the MK14 are resolved.

[iambecomelife]

Yes Ma'am!
I have already been doing that to a limited extent... generally for a spread effect. I guess I'm going to have to figure out the 'speed error' that my crew is making when launching torpedoes and have a pre-prepared offset to compensate. Gotta hit those boiler/engine rooms- big rooms mean faster flooding and faster sinking!


I also like hitting engine rooms. Not only lots of flooding space, but you can leave her a cripple and line up a second shot with precision. Once a ship goes dead in the water, I usually choose an unflooded compartment as my target, rather than trying to make the engine room flood faster with my second torpedo. In my most recent career with TMO, I almost never needed more than two fish for merchants up to 4,000 tons.

[Carthaginian]

I used to get near 100% "kill with one torpedo" success when using magnetic detonator set a few feet under the keel. Every ship breaks in two. This was with TMO post 1943 when most of the problems with the MK14 are resolved.

Well, that's what the magnetic exploder was meant to do all along.
When that is available as an option (S-boat in 1942 ATM) I'll be using it.
Right now, I'm just glad that I can avoid using the Mk14 completely!

I also like hitting engine rooms. Not only lots of flooding space, but you can leave her a cripple and line up a second shot with precision. Once a ship goes dead in the water, I usually choose an unflooded compartment as my target, rather than trying to make the engine room flood faster with my second torpedo. In my most recent career with TMO, I almost never needed more than two fish for merchants up to 4,000 tons.

If she's dead in the water, then I'm using my 4" deck gun to open up the hull... unless she is armed and has the Japanese Davy Crockett as a gun captain. Torps are for tankers, liners and warships- deck gun shells are cheaper and more available.
And I don't blame you for looking for a fresh compartment, there are only two ways to ways to sink a ship: 1.) let water in the bottom or 2.) let air out the top. Hitting two compartments lets both happen faster. I like my ship kills like I like my kills in the field- quick and clean.

[Hylander_1314]

Davy Crockett is no joke! While our DG crews are blind as bats in comparison! Even on dead calm seas, and as close as 500 yards, they can't the broad side of a barn, with the broad side of another barn!

[merc4ulfate]

TMO RSRD Tambor Class

He has a DECK GUN?? Gesus crap why won't it give me a deck gun? Its already Dec of 44

GRRRRR

[Hylander_1314]

I also like hitting engine rooms. Not only lots of flooding space, but you can leave her a cripple and line up a second shot with precision. Once a ship goes dead in the water, I usually choose an unflooded compartment as my target, rather than trying to make the engine room flood faster with my second torpedo. In my most recent career with TMO, I almost never needed more than two fish for merchants up to 4,000 tons.

My favorite place to hit ships in general, merchants or warships! Although with the latter, a nicely placed shot in the forward magazine can make for some very cool pyrotechnics!

[doulos05]

My first shot always goes under the stack. But that's efficiency. If I fail to sink her, I'll almost certainly stop her. If I stop her, every follow-on method of sinking her becomes infinitely easier. Even if I just slow her down, I've still made it measurably easier to make her into an artificial reef.