Which Supermod?

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Hi all. Apologies, probably been discussed before.

After my installation of SHIII with GWX and assorted other mods crashed on me last week, I decided to install a recently purchased copy of SHIV + U boat addon.

Are there any supermods out there for SHIV equivalent to SHIII GWX (updating or improving Traffic, skins, sinking times, gameplay, accuracy, environments etc), or should I be looking at installing smaller individual mods to update each aspect.

I'm aware of RFB, TMO and OM mods, but I'm having difficulty understanding what changes they make to the game or gameplay.

Can anyone advise of the major differences between RFB and TMO?

Does OM only affect the Uboat missions, or the US campaign as well?

Does anyone have any recommendations or advice? :D

Thanks,

[Sailor Steve]

RFB: Aims at making everything as historically accurate as possible.
The good: Sometimes being more accurate actually means being easier. Also it's the only mod that makes Midway look like it really does.
The bad: If you know the parameters it becomes predictable.

TMO: Aims at making things a little harder than they really were and thus a little less accurate.
The good: This is intentional. Real life was never predictable. TMO keeps you on your toes and encourages more realistic efforts from the player.
The Bad: Not much really.

OM is indeed just for u-boats. I recommend that you get MultiSH4, which makes it easy to manage multiple installations and run all three, plus keeping a stock version in reserve in case you need the files.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Do any of them change the GUI?

I was a little shocked when I fired up SHIV. It looks a little cartoony.

[Sailor Steve]

Really? I don't see it as being any worse than SH3, just different. In SH3 I use a mod that has no GUI at all. Everything is a slide-out. I wish there was such a mod for SH4.

[germannoob]

RFB: Aims at making everything as historically accurate as possible.
The good: Sometimes being more accurate actually means being easier. Also it's the only mod that makes Midway look like it really does.
The bad: If you know the parameters it becomes predictable.

TMO: Aims at making things a little harder than they really were and thus a little less accurate.
The good: This is intentional. Real life was never predictable. TMO keeps you on your toes and encourages more realistic efforts from the player.
The Bad: Not much really.

Can you please explain which things of the game are more easy with rfb, and which ones are harder with tmo? I'm also searching the optimal mod for me.

Currently I'm using TMO because I thought the mod intend was to make the game much more playable. Seems I was wrong.

[Sailor Steve]

RFB makes it so you can take a depth-charge pounding for hours and still survive. TMO may do the same, I don't play it. There are others I've forgotten over the years.

TMO has very tough destroyers, especially Bungo Pete. TMO airplanes are also very nasty, and can see you well below the surface.

Other than that I only know what I've heard, which is the general description I gave you. Ducimus has pointed out that even with TMO you can figure out the patterns and sink a lot more tonnage than any real-life skipper ever did.

[Hylander_1314]

From TMO 2.2 on, Ducimus adjusted the planes, so that in the early part of the war, they can't spot you too well if you take the boat deep.

Later in the war, ........................ well, lets just say, they will harass the snot outta you if they know your general location. Especially in 1945. I shoot down as many planes per patrol as ships I sink, just because of their incessant doggedness of keeping you bottled up. And they are just as obnoxious at night as they are in the day. In fact, I have had more aircraft problems in the later war years from night air attacks, than daylight attacks. So I tend to change my strategy to more daylight ops than night ops.

One thing that I have heard, but can't confirm it, is that RFB keeps to the stock thing of your boat getting destroyed if you go passed test depth redlines. Not sure if that was ever dealt with, but TMO, you can really take the Gato and Balao boats down deep. Will they crush? Sure. At what depth? Well, just like the real boats, if you find out your crush depth, you won't be going back to base to brag how deep you were able to take the boat.

As far as I know, TMO is the only mod that incorporates this. If I am mistaken, my apologies to the modders for a misconception, in advance.

And yes, the DDs are a bit tougher in TMO than other mods, and one well placed DC, will really ruin your day! So be ready to run really deep! And really silent! But knowing how the escorts operate, is a big plus. Are they listening, or actively pinging? They can only do one or the other. Not both. So get to knowing how to counter both, and you can lots of fun! Spent 4 hours last night getting DCed. Lots of fun that was!

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

So both RFB and TMO change aspects of the gameplay, destroyers and crush debt etc, and realism in SHIV. Do either of them include graphical improvements like skins, environments etc?

I know it's probably unfair to compare anything to GWX, but I guess I'm looking for the best bang for my buck, so to speak.

On second thought, can anyone provide the details of exactly what RFB and TMO change to the stock SHIV game? Are there changelogs or a manual anywhere?

[USS Drum]

So both RFB and TMO change aspects of the gameplay, destroyers and crush debt etc, and realism in SHIV. Do either of them include graphical improvements like skins, environments etc?

I know it's probably unfair to compare anything to GWX, but I guess I'm looking for the best bang for my buck, so to speak.

On second thought, can anyone provide the details of exactly what RFB and TMO change to the stock SHIV game? Are there changelogs or a manual anywhere?

TMO has many graphical improvements.

[Hylander_1314]

So both RFB and TMO change aspects of the gameplay, destroyers and crush debt etc, and realism in SHIV. Do either of them include graphical improvements like skins, environments etc?

I know it's probably unfair to compare anything to GWX, but I guess I'm looking for the best bang for my buck, so to speak.

On second thought, can anyone provide the details of exactly what RFB and TMO change to the stock SHIV game? Are there changelogs or a manual anywhere?

Yes, TMO has a manual, and yes it jas a nice changelog collection. Download it if you wish to read it all.

And no, it's not fair to compare it to GWX. It is comparing the efforts of a team, vs a one man show. Yes TMO does have graphical improvements. But you can add graphic mods of your own liking for improvements.

Foobar's subskins are a definite plus, and the Japanese Navy and Merchant Navy have a mix of skins so you don't always see the same boat(s) over and over again, even if the ship types may be the same over time.

Another good one aside from TMO and RFB, is FOTRS (Fall OF The Rising Sun). It has new shiptyoes, and planes added by the team woring on it. The team leader says they are hoping to have the lastest version out by summer.

[germannoob]

[...]But knowing how the escorts operate, is a big plus. Are they listening, or actively pinging? They can only do one or the other. Not both. So get to knowing how to counter both, and you can lots of fun! Spent 4 hours last night getting DCed. Lots of fun that was!

Wow! So it sounds, TMO has adressed some more parts of the gameplay?

Just some questions:
1. I read some old books (anno 1951-1956) from my grandpa. There is a story, where english DD's got a really good strategy to sink boats: 1 was listening and directing another one to above the submarine. So there was no asdic blackout for the dd which throwed the dc's. Was this also a tactic japanese did? If so, is this simulated within a supermod?

2. Can you explain or giving some links on how to counter the both operations? How do I escape if they listening? How to escape while pinging? Are they switching between these 2 modes? Leave charges bubbles in the water? (I know, that after an attack you can not hear anymore the submarine for about up to 30 seconds even if it was running full flank)

And does anyone has a plain explanation for FOTRS which aspects are adressed and maybe are better in this mod?

Thanks in advanced. Learned much here.:yeah:

[Hylander_1314]

Wow! So it sounds, TMO has adressed some more parts of the gameplay?

Just some questions:
1. I read some old books (anno 1951-1956) from my grandpa. There is a story, where english DD's got a really good strategy to sink boats: 1 was listening and directing another one to above the submarine. So there was no asdic blackout for the dd which throwed the dc's. Was this also a tactic japanese did? If so, is this simulated within a supermod?

2. Can you explain or giving some links on how to counter the both operations? How do I escape if they listening? How to escape while pinging? Are they switching between these 2 modes? Leave charges bubbles in the water? (I know, that after an attack you can not hear anymore the submarine for about up to 30 seconds even if it was running full flank)

And does anyone has a plain explanation for FOTRS which aspects are adressed and maybe are better in this mod?

Thanks in advanced. Learned much here.:yeah:

The thing to remember, is that the Japanese Navy didn't approach their ASW like Britain and America did.

In the early part of the war, they thought US submarines couldn't dive any deeper than 150ft so they dropped their DCs to shallow most of the time out in deep open waters. That is until an American politician opened his fat mouth to the papers and of course, guess who picked up on the statement?

As the war progresses however, the escorts get better, as experience is the greatest teacher. The Japanese get better at finding you, and when they do work together they will employ similar tactics that the Royal Navy employed in the Atlantic.

What TMO has though working for you, is that you can take your boat way passed "test depth", the red line on the diving dial, as many did just that to avoid the DCs the escorts dropped.

One thing though, and I'm not positive on this, but SH4 never employed the water disturbance the DCs caused from exploding, so for a long time, it was rather frustrating. If you want it, I would recommend 2 mods,

DC_Water_Disturbance, and Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage.

The first one is obvious as it does just that. It disrupts the Japanese sonar and listening devices for a short time. The second one, makes it so that if you damage a plane or ship, and the fires continue to burn, they will cause a structural failure.

As for evading the DC attacks, do what you did in SH3. The deeper you can go, the better. Even if they have one boat listening while another makes an attack, you can still go to flank speed and make a turn to avoid the DCs. And if you're in Balao boat, I have taken them down passed 600ft and even at Ahead Standard, can outrun the depth charges, and save battery power.

But Ducimus shows in the TMO Manual how the ASW works with the IJN DDs, and how you can counter it. And it all boils down to making your signature as small as possible.

Also, in the Pacific, the thermal layers if present would throw off the enemy as the thermal layer would bend the sound wave and give a false location to the receiver. Not that it throws it off that much, but the deeper you are under it, the more deviation it gives your sound or pinged signature. And depending on how much of a change there is, in water temperature under the thermal layer, I have watched destroyers drop their DCs far enough away from the boat, that it didn't even require a need to change speed.

But that all depends on the skill level of the DD(s) that are looking for you. If there is only one, it is easy enough to lose them. If there are 2, it's a bit tougher, but you can still lose them if you employ the right tactics. 3+ DDs, now you will have some fun. For even with the knowledge of how to combat the IJN ASW efforts, the AI has been tweaked in TMO to be a bit more tenacious at looking for you. And once they do find you, they don't give up or lose you that quickly.

The worst one I have had so far, was after attacking a IJN TF in late 1944, that had 11 or more DD escorts, and even though I damaged and slowed a couple capital ships, I had 6 or 7 of the escorts on me for 9 hours of game time. They didn't get me, but once they did let up, I tried to follow them back to the TF, but they were making 30+ knots so I couldn't keep up. So even though I damaged a couple big ships, the escorts did their job. They kept me penned up long enough to let the TF escape further destruction.

As for FOTRS, check out their page for info.

This is their forum link, and it's a German location, so you should be able to get all the info there on the mod.

http://www.aotd-flottille.de/wbb2/board.php?boardid=149&sid=470d18070c0bc3905b34c4c87091d1ac

I do like it, as it is based on TMO, but they've added more ship types, and planes.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

So in other words the trick is to find the supermod that changes the gameplay in the way you'd like, and then install the various skin, graphics mods etc over the top?

[Sailor Steve]

Wow! So it sounds, TMO has adressed some more parts of the gameplay?
Yes. That said, even Ducimus admits that there are many things that seem to be unfixable.

Just some questions:
1. I read some old books (anno 1951-1956) from my grandpa. There is a story, where english DD's got a really good strategy to sink boats: 1 was listening and directing another one to above the submarine. So there was no asdic blackout for the dd which throwed the dc's. Was this also a tactic japanese did? If so, is this simulated within a supermod?
They called it a 'Hunter-Killer group' and it was invented by British Captain Johnny Walker. When the u-boat was found one destroyer (usually the one that actually found it) was assigned to be the 'Hunter' and he would direct the 'Killers' in. The Americans augmented this with the 'Escort Carrier', adding planes to the mix, which prevented the u-boat from fighting back. As Highlander_1314 pointed out, the Japanese never had anything like this that we know of. They did, however, manage to sink a lot of US subs, so they might have had something similar that was never official doctrine.

2. Can you explain or giving some links on how to counter the both operations? How do I escape if they listening? How to escape while pinging? Are they switching between these 2 modes? Leave charges bubbles in the water? (I know, that after an attack you can not hear anymore the submarine for about up to 30 seconds even if it was running full flank)
I've heard everything from thirty seconds to two minutes. First, the sonar of the period could not aim downward very far, so it's a good tactic to go to flank speed when you can hear the enemy propellors from inside the submarine. At that point they think they know where you are so it's advisable to change depth, going down at least 50 feet and turning hard one way or the other (if you know the direction he's coming from, toward him is better). After the depth charges stop exploding go back to slow speed and silent running. If there is only one escort these tactics should serve you well. If there is one listening while another makes his attack run you have bigger problems and I wish you luck.

[ColonelSandersLite]

So in other words the trick is to find the supermod that changes the gameplay in the way you'd like, and then install the various skin, graphics mods etc over the top?


Yeah, do that. Though FYI, last I checked, the megamods (except operation monsoon) really screw up the u-boat campaigns and are not made to work with that aspect of the game. If you're dead set on u-boats, keep that in mind.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Yeah, do that. Though FYI, last I checked, the megamods (except operation monsoon) really screw up the u-boat campaigns and are not made to work with that aspect of the game. If you're dead set on u-boats, keep that in mind.

Apologies if I'm wrong, but I thought that the latest versions of the megamods were updates specifically for the latest version of SHIV that comes with the Uboat missions. How do the mods mess with the Uboats?

Can Operation Monsoon be loaded over the top of TMO or RFB?

Thanks,

[SuperEtendard]

I have one question, terrabyte. I have SHIII, but stock. I want to install GWX but i dont know what it is nor what it does... Its for gameplay or graphics?.

Also, there is a mod for the SHIII that the water come out of the ballast tanks just like in SH IV? when i first saw it, i loved it (i know its just a detail, but its great, really visual reallistic, i think). In SHIII there isnt this feature. I dont know if in U-Boats Missions there is, but i just want to know if there is for III

[Sailor Steve]

Yes there is, and has been for years. I'll be glad to tell you all about it if you ask in the SH3 forum, here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=182

[ColonelSandersLite]

Apologies if I'm wrong, but I thought that the latest versions of the megamods were updates specifically for the latest version of SHIV that comes with the Uboat missions. How do the mods mess with the Uboats?

Can Operation Monsoon be loaded over the top of TMO or RFB?

Thanks,

The bulk of the sh4 community tends to view the uboat expansion as more of a bugfix pack/the latest platform to mod off of. If you really want u-boats, unless you're desperate for operation monsoon, look to sh3/5. Those sims where built around uboats and that's what they do best. In sh4, they're just kinda tacked in there to give the u-boat fanboys a reason to buy the game. This is just my opinion of course, but while u-boats are great, one shouldn't ignore a subsim just because it isn't das boot.

[Rockin Robbins]

one shouldn't ignore a subsim just because it isn't das boot.

Why should fidelity to some overwritten and preposterous movie be our yardstick for measuring the quality of a submarine simulation? It boggles my mind that an anti-war propoganda movie with little regard for the professionalism and quality of the German sailor or U-boat would command such worship, especially on the left side of the pond.

Das Boot depicts German submariners as sniveling cowardly and very sloppy seamen who didn't even bother to conduct a sonar sweep before they surfaced and were nearly run down by a very loud and obvious charging destroyer.

I certainly PRAY that a submarine simulation is better than that. Even the justifiably despised SH5 exceeds that poor standard.

It would be more appropriate to measure a sub sim by comparison to the Beatles' Yellow Submarine. At least Admiral Halsey is in that one!
lol!

As far as the mods go, just about all of them require and were written for U-boat Missions, patch 1.5. There is much more to v1.5 than just the addition of the German craft. Memory is handled much better, the game loads faster, is more stable and that's just what I remember right now. Playing with 1.4 is playing an obsolete version. With the give-away price of 1.5 Gold, there's no excuse not to have the latest.