Torpedoe Spread Q

[bill clarke]

Guys,

Is it possible to fire say 3 torps at once ? If so how, and if not what part does the spread angle play.

BTW I have manual targeting off

[Hylander_1314]

Only German uboats have the spread firing. US subs fire individually. I don't bother with the spread feature the uboats had, because I waste more torpedoes that way. But that's just a personal preference.

The spread is supposed to help get multiple hits on the same vessel at the same time. I do the exact same thing firing individually. Even on manual firing, I can fire off a salvo of torpedoes that are just as effective as a predetermined spread.

The key, is to get in as close as possible. Firing no greater then 1000 yards, and very low deflection angle. The more the torpedo needs to turn, the greater the error possible, and then there is also the higher possibility that it will become a circle runner.

Had one wreck the tower on the 4th or 5th patrol. Thankfully it was only an inarmed merchant I was dealing with and not an escorted convoy, as we would have been sunk for sure. Luckily just the scopes and tbt were wrecked along with the radar. Still, we got the bejeebers outta there at flank speed and made haste back to base at Perth Fremantle.

[Hinrich Schwab]

The only spread that should be considered is the longitudinal spread, which is consecutive straight shots. The horizontal spread requires manual adjustment of the TDC because, as Hylander pointed out, only the German TDC had the option to set multiple tubes for spread fire.

Your best bet would be to become accustomed to the Dick O'Kane Firing Method. I have used it in SH 1-5 and Aces of the Deep. It works. :yeah:
The horizontal spread is a wasteful compensation for a questionable shooting solution. The logic is that one of the fired torpedoes should hit. If you have automatic targeting on, you solution is always accurate, regardless of possible misses from AOB convergence/divergence errors over time. This is why I recommend the Dick O'Kane method. Even if the torpedo is a frustrating dud, you still hit the target.

[twm47099]

The only problem I've noticed with the vertical spread (using the O'Kane or other constant bearing attack method) is that if the target changes heading towards or away in response, all of the fish can miss since they travel along the same bearing. (In some missions, the target is continuously zig-zaging moving like a snake.) So in that case or if I suspect it may detect the attack, I have been setting spread using the torpedo control panel.

However, you have to be careful not to set the offset angle too high. At a couple of thousand yards, a ship does not cover a very large angle. In the Torpedo mission of the sub school, a right 2 degree setting will put the fish between the fwd turrets on the cruiser (depending on how early or late you fire in the mission) with the target in its initial profile. Further out, 2 degrees will be a miss.

You can measure the angular size of the target (depends on range and AOB) by unlocking the scope and noting the number of degrees difference with the cross hair on the stern and then on the bow. Also realize that often the first hit will cause the ship to slow, causing all subsequent torpedoes fired before the hit to attack more forward than when aimed.

The biggest issue I have with the offset control, is that getting right/left 1 degree or 1/2 degree set quickly when firing a spread is tricky if you have any lag between the mouse and cursor.

With Manual targeting off, the only way I've been able to get a spread is to use the offset control since with the scope locked (to get the solution light lit) the game aims at the target center.

Tom

[Hinrich Schwab]

The only problem I've noticed with the vertical spread (using the O'Kane or other constant bearing attack method) is that if the target changes heading towards or away in response, all of the fish can miss since they travel along the same bearing. (In some missions, the target is continuously zig-zaging moving like a snake.) So in that case or if I suspect it may detect the attack, I have been setting spread using the torpedo control panel.

However, you have to be careful not to set the offset angle too high. At a couple of thousand yards, a ship does not cover a very large angle. In the Torpedo mission of the sub school, a right 2 degree setting will put the fish between the fwd turrets on the cruiser (depending on how early or late you fire in the mission) with the target in its initial profile. Further out, 2 degrees will be a miss.

You can measure the angular size of the target (depends on range and AOB) by unlocking the scope and noting the number of degrees difference with the cross hair on the stern and then on the bow. Also realize that often the first hit will cause the ship to slow, causing all subsequent torpedoes fired before the hit to attack more forward than when aimed.

The biggest issue I have with the offset control, is that getting right/left 1 degree or 1/2 degree set quickly when firing a spread is tricky if you have any lag between the mouse and cursor.

With Manual targeting off, the only way I've been able to get a spread is to use the offset control since with the scope locked (to get the solution light lit) the game aims at the target center.

Tom

Detectability of torpedoes can be mitigated. Torpedo speed is the biggest factor. Slower speed=less wake. Torpedoes running at 44 knots are are almost always spotted. I have also observed that if a torpedo is fired between 1500-3000 yards/meters the chance of detection increases dramatically. Long/extreme range shots usually hit with a good solution and detection doesn't matter with close shots as the target doesn't have enough time to react.

[Bubblehead1980]

Just to add...

Yes, US TDC does not allow for a salvo but a spread is very possible.There are two ways to do it in the traditional sense.One is put your crosshairs on Middle of Target(MOT) and fire.Then use the spread knob on the TDC to send torpedoes left or right, depending of course on direction of travel length, or you can just fire torpedoes 10 seconds apart and they will hit different areas.That is the beauty of the US TDC, it has the Position Keeper, it updates your info even if your scope is down etc.Another method, one pioneered by USS Wahoo, is to fire each torpedo on an individual bearing.For example, a large freighter is coming on from my port side, I'm on the staboard side, he is in in my crosshairs, I aim one at MOT, send bearing, fire 1, I move the scope to the forward mast, send bearing, fire 2, move crosshairs to stern mast, fire 3.The fish are now aimed at three different areas along the ship, I have found this the most accurate.

There are various "fancy" shooting methods that others swear by but I prefer the more historical based method, it's easy and effective.On 100 realism I bagged 11 ships(TMO RSRD, July-August 44) in the Luzon Strairs...target rich area for sure. I like to use the spread knob for long range shots or in early war but the way the Wahoo did it is what I prefer, try that out, good luck.:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

And let me add another thing. German boats kept about the same interval between torpedoes leaving the tubes as we did. There was no salvo fire, as in firing three torpedoes within a second or so. The effect on boat trim would have been deadly, with the boat bobbing to the the surface and screaming like a girl, "Shoot me! Shoot me!" That is just too much weight loss to compensate for instantly.

Also, torpedoes had a nasty habit of exploding, because that was what they were designed to do. Sometimes they exploded before they got to the target. Torpedoes shot together in a simultaneous salvo would set each other off for a great fireworks display that again says, "Here I am! Shoot me! Shoot me!"

And there are no more torpedoes headed toward the target. You are now the target. Enjoy!:D

[bill clarke]

Guys thank you very much for the info.

[Rockin Robbins]

To expand on what Bubblehead said: There are two ways in SH4 to get a good spread. The real subs' TDCs had a way to get the angular size of the target so you could KNOW what spread angles to use. We don't have their tools. That makes the spread angle input less useful for us than it was in real life.

The easiest way to have an intelligent spread is to use a constant bearing attack, where you are aiming for a certain spot and fire as juicy parts of the target cross the wire. Then you can shoot one at the bow, one at middle of target (MOT), and one at the stern. Each torpedo is individually targeted that way.

What's happening here is that all three torpedoes are headed at the same hole in the ocean. But they will arrive at different times, so they will hit different parts of the target as he moves by that impact spot. All three torpedoes are following each other exactly in line one behind the other. This is called a longitudinal spread.

What's not to like? Suppose you're firing from 45º ahead of the target. The target, if he sees the torpedoes, can make a turn into the direction of the torpedoes. When he does so, he avoids all three torpedoes, which will pass harmlessly to the side. Avoiding one is avoiding them all.

In rough water, night, fog and rain or with really short range, none of this matters and a longitudinal spread is the easiest (and so most reliable) method of putting your target on the bottom.

When you are in conditions where your torpedoes might be spotted you want three things.

First you want those torpedoes coming at the target with a TTA (torpedo track angle) of as close to 90º as possible. Why? Because then the target has to turn the largest angle to avoid! A torpedo coming from 45º in front needs a turn of something less than 45º so it will pass alongside. But the same torpedo from 90º requires a much larger turn for the same effect.

Second, you want to reduce range to the smallest possible distance. Less time to turn means that torpedo from 90º will be impossible to avoid even if they do take evasive measures. There just isn't enough time to make the angle necessary to produce a miss.

Third, you can use a divergent spread. That means that the three torpedoes take individual, different courses to the target. When that happens avoiding one torpedo is NOT avoiding them all. In fact avoiding one may guarantee being hit by the others.

It is the most trouble to shoot, but in order to have the best chance to bag a target that can see your torpedoes is to make the maximally divergent torpedo spread. Now we already know that the minimally divergent spread comes from shooting bow, MOT, stern in that order.

So the maximally divergent spread is shooting stern, MOT, bow. This means three times as much work, aiming at the stern of the target, stabbing the send data to TDC button and firing, aiming again at MOT, stab send to TDC, fire, aim at bow, push send to TDC, fire. Also, the time between button stab and firing must be as short as possible. Because of the necessary time delay you will hit the target slightly behind your aim point. Your AoB will also be slightly off because you don't have time to adjust it between shots. That will produce a couple feet of difference in impact point. But that error will be less meaningful than your ability to aim the periscope accurately so don't worry about it.

Now you're the captain of the target. There's three torpedoes coming at you from three angles. Which way do you turn to avoid. That takes time to decide. Then there usually isn't one solution. ALL possibilities mean at least one torpedo will hit, especially if the spread is more than 100% of the target length. You're gonna have a BAD day.:woot:

[bill clarke]

Thanks RR, hey I loved your tutorial on the tools.

I'm having trouble with the setting the fish from slow to fast, the dam switch won't work 90% of the time. The other switch, Imapact/ impact/cant think of the word works fine for me.


It seems that to change the speed you have to click on a certain part of the switch to get it to move, I thought I had it, but it worked once then not again.

[twm47099]

That switch seems very sensitive as to position, but...

In some of the missions the torpedo load-out is a mix of Mk14s and other fish. Some of those other fish only have one speed.

I went nuts in one mission trying to set all my tubes to high speed. Then I went to the torpedo tube display and found that I had a mix of torpedo types.

There is also a mod that I found on this site ("antilag") that cured the worst of my "chase the mouse cursor" problems that I had. It makes it much easier to get the cursor where you want - if you have a problem like I did where the cursor always overshot. I just followed the directions and used the default settings.

Tom