U.S. Military Taught Officers: Use ‘Hiroshima’ Tactics for ‘Total War’ on Islam

[Catfish]

A small cabal of self-anointed "counterterrorism experts", or just some xenophobic haters with a religious agenda ?
Not that Al-quaeda ever existed in the way it is still perpetrated to the masses by Fox News or The Sun.

"The harm perpetuated on student officers “who accepted the implied authority of the instructor,” Ollivant added, “is obvious"

As if one had not known it before :nope:


" ... For the better part of the last decade, a small cabal of self-anointed counterterrorism experts (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09/fbi-islam-domination/) has been working its way through the U.S. military, intelligence and law enforcement communities, trying to convince whoever it could that America’s real terrorist enemy wasn’t al-Qaida (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09/fbi-islam-qaida-irrelevant/) — but the Islamic faith itself. In his course, Dooley brought in these anti-Muslim demagogues as guest lecturers. And he took their argument to its final, ugly conclusion. ..."

Source: Wired Dangerroom:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/total-war-islam/


What some officer really thinks of this approach -
Top U.S. Officer: Stop This ‘Total War’ on Islam Talk:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/dempsey-islam-irresponsible/


It is however good to see not all swallow that xenophobic hate without answering.
:up:

[the_tyrant]

This kind of ruins the credibility of the military, especially when what they need is more Muslims to enlist. As it takes someone familiar with the faith to combat extremists of the faith.

although to be fair, this is exactly what they teach over there, just flip over the ideologies

[Morts]

So, your source is a blog that links to itself and other dubious material for sources.

[Catfish]

No, those are two different articles, but from one website, and also not a "blog". There are also links to other sites quoting, in this article.

And some others not from this site:

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_20597978/military-class-suspended-after-instructor-taught-that-islam

http://www.montereyherald.com/national/ci_20594597/military-class-suspended-its-view-islam

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2142634/Join-Forces-Staff-College-taught-officers-wage-Hiroshima-style-war-Muslims.html

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/10/4481225/cair-asks-pentagon-to-dismiss.html

[Skybird]

So, your source is a blog that links to itself and other dubious material for sources.

Had it thismorning myself, but passed on openiong a thread on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105

I cannot comment by thta piec eon whether the course was going too far or not, but it certainly is true that the ideology of Islam itself is the problem. It is violent, it is totalitarian, it makes supremacist claims and raises the demand that there can be no peace as long as Islam does not rule all world, it is demanding slavery of females, it is demanding discrimination and subjugation of infidels, it is racist to the very bone. One needs to poke one'S eyes out with a pencil not to see that if one spends some time on investigating Quran and the history of Sharia, Sira and Hadith.

So, the basic premise of that course, that the war must be understood to be directed against a deeply hostile and inhumane ideology motivating barbarism since over a thousand years, is correct. On the conclusions they went to in that course, I will not comment without knowing more, and in context.

That now people criticising Islam for the above qualities get bashed again by calling them phobics and insanes, just shows me how insane the place of the world is I happen to live in. It's a madhouse that denies realities that does not fit it's wishful thinking. And I have tremendously lost inteerest and motivation in the past two or three years to defend in word or even in deed this sphere of walking idiots. The current Zeitgeist gives me the strong impression that Wetserners maybe deserve to live under EU tyranny and Sharia law. They deserve it becasue they have given up to want something better, fighting to gain it, and defending the cultural heritage of the past, namely freedom, the tradition of humanism and rationality, and secularism.

If you do not appreciate freedom, you do not deserve it. That's how I see it. It's like that with most iof not all precious things and qualities, isn't it. If you cannot appreciate something, then it is wasted on you.

If my conclusion on Islam - and fundamentalist religion in general - offends anyone, as far as I am concerned he can be offended and even can drop dead, if that is what he wants. There is no right not to be offended. And notoriously offended Mulims are a plague these days. These years. These centuries . Ehm - has it ever been different? The offence lies in something existing that is still not Islamic, maybe even decides to resists to it (not the West, certainly). That is evil at its best!

[August]

No, those are two different articles, but from one website, and also not a "blog". There are also links to other sites quoting, in this article.

And some others not from this site:

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_20597978/military-class-suspended-after-instructor-taught-that-islam

http://www.montereyherald.com/national/ci_20594597/military-class-suspended-its-view-islam

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2142634/Join-Forces-Staff-College-taught-officers-wage-Hiroshima-style-war-Muslims.html

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/10/4481225/cair-asks-pentagon-to-dismiss.html

Just because a few other newspapers pick up the story doesn't mean it's any more true than the Polish dentist who took out all her ex-boyfriends teeth. At most it's probably a mole hill being made into a mountain for the consumption of those who are looking for reasons to dislike the US.

[Oberon]

So, your source is a blog that links to itself and other dubious material for sources.

It was also mentioned on the BBC World Service this morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18032968

It's not going to do much for the popularity of the US in the Middle East...but then again there's not much the US could do to actually change that opinion and if you're going to wage war against a religion then you have to go all out.
No-one in the western world would accept a total war though, so the whole thing is meaningless.

[Tribesman]

So, your source is a blog that links to itself and other dubious material for sources.
But it has been confirmed by the US military

Just because a few other newspapers pick up the story doesn't mean it's any more true than the Polish dentist who took out all her ex-boyfriends teeth.
Since those ones came out after the military had confirmed it why do you still have a problem accepting it?

[Osmium Steele]

It is however good to see not all swallow that xenophobic hate without answering.
:up:

Those who remain ignorant of their history are doomed to repeat it.

From the moment Muhammad's followers kicked the pagans out of Mecca, and an argument can be made it started earlier in Medina, Islam has been at war with anyone and anything NOT of Allah.

That some recognize this fact does not make them xenophobic, and there is nothing righteous about ridiculing those who have a clear understanding of world history.

The only respite the western world has had in the interim, was the 60 years or so after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WWI. We became complacent, and thought a war which had waged for over a millenia had somehow ended.

If you want to see true xenophobia, study the Quran and the Haditha. Even scarier than the old testament.

One of my favorites. Sahih muslim book 41 iirc:

Allah's Apostle said, "You will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

[TLAM Strike]

About time someone from the DoD started talking about using good old General Order 24.

Of course they are going to call him an insane bigot right up until they do it to us.

[Skybird]

It is a non-starter. I want to point out the link in Oberon's article. The original material can be found here:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/05/dooley_counter_jihad_op_design_v11.pdf

I have just finished flying over it. And I wonder what the outcry is about. The parts not specifically illustrating internal doctrinal structures of the US' OOB, could have been done by me the way they are printed there.

There is nothing, it seems, that I have not said myself many times in this forum.

The author at the beginning - to my surprise - mentions the impoortance of the abrogation principle. That got me by surprise becasue in most books I have read about Islam, it gets ignored, overlooked, and not mentioned at all, although it is of so very serious consequences. I remiond on that the major law schools of Islam agreed on the validity of the abrogation principle from I think 9th century on.

The Hiroshima part is on page 8 where the author says his model pressumes that Geneva Convention standards due to the practices of Islamic terrorists can no longer globally respected everywhere, in principle leaving open an argument for the option that historic precedences like Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki serve as an example on how to bring war again to civilian populations as in Mekka and Medina as targets for such a strike - possibly - as part of a multi-layered stratgey of how to tackle Islam(-"ism") in the global war thgat said Islam has already declared against all the world, and is practicing already since years (with tens of thousands getting killed).

On page three the author asks a question that is of utmost importance.

HOW CAN WE PROPERLY IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, ANALYZE HIS WEAKNESSES, AND DEFEAT HIM, IF WE ARE NEVER PERMITTED TO EXAMINE HIM FROM THE MOST BASIC DOCTRINAL LEVEL?

That could have been from Pat Condell. :)

At the end the authgor points out another fact that I have tried to hammer home time and again. "Moderate Islam" is not "Mainstream Islam", but is a minor faction only. I argzue on basis that this moderateness is no due to Quranic teaching, but despite Quranic teaching, already representing an act of apostacy. That is why it is legitimate from a truely Islamic POV that Muslims kill such moderate Muslims, true Muslims are obliged to do so. That is no radical Islam, and no Islmaism or terrorism - that IS mainstream Islam.

[Tribesman]

One of my favorites
For balance can you show the version from the bible dealing with the same events?

Even scarier than the old testament.

its a new testament reworking of an old testament theme if you don't mind comparing honestly.

[Skybird]

Since we're at it, Pat Condell. Look what book somebody got for himself on Monday! :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Godless-Free-Pat-Condell/dp/1445223155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336743522&sr=8-1

Now, there it is, my weekly dose of Satanic action. Hm, tastes great!

On the German and American Amazon site, the English book is available, too, and there can be checked for content list and the complete preface on the Why and How of the book. I gave the British link due to the many more reviews. Of course, there are only 1 or 5 stars :lol: (3 1-stars, 11 5-stars). Any other result than such polarising would have been a disappointment.

[Catfish]

Well to be true there are equally 'strange' texts in the old testament, the difference certainly being that even the most conservative christians would probably not do today, what has been written down there. Or would they?

The bible and the christians have laid those special passages ad acta, and more or less adapted to the modern world (with a few queerheads here and there), as have the Jews.

My question is, would the christian parts of religion have adapted and reduced their power voluntarily ?

However - has the Q'ran experienced this kind of interpretation at some point, and by whom ? - Really do not know it.
And between the 7th and 8th century the islamic world was the most advanced, technically and scientifically - what happened then ?

Anyway a well-educated muslim in the US studying informatics and then maybe starting an enterprise in or around silicon valley will probably still have his faith, without being attracted by what Al Quaeda does ?

So what would they want to do - kill all muslims ? A worlwide crusade ?

[Skybird]

The freedom and humane graceness we have in the West (at least Non-Wetsern people move to our places to live here, not us moving to theirs to live in theirs) is not due to the church, but have been efnorced against bitter resietnce from the church. The OT and the NT are two different things, and the god Jesus mentioned is a different cinstruction in essence then the old, psychopathic, hate-filled, cruel revenge-driven sadistic basterd the OT speaks about. Christianity's god was kind of a reformed, "tamed" version of the not any less unfriendly Jewish god. See the Christian fundamentalists, see the Jewish orthodox - they are behaving much the same dark ways. Muhammad also quick-copied the Jewish faith, and then altered it to meet his specific political needs. It always has been more politcal ideology and sociological control, then a religion.

However, all that is history and not really important. What makes the important difference is that we have moved beyond that level of mediaval barbarism and cruelty and taking the dogma'S faith literally. Islam has not.

We have understood that the later crusades, that went beyond the intention to defend against the Islamic aggression and to gain back what had been lost to Muslim armies (mind you, we are talking about a Muslim attack on the ME, Byzantine, Europe, North africa and to the NE towards Persia and India, not the other way around!), were not posiotive to be judged, and we do not celebrate them anymore. Islam is on its own "crusade" against all mankind until today.

We have moved beyond stoning our women for adultery, and move constantly towards more gender equality. Islam does not.

We do not take the OT literal anymore, and most church-followers today tend to exclusiovely go with the four gospels anyway. Islam has no seen a reorfrmation, the Quran knows no difference between the god of the old and the god of the new book, and a reformner like Jesus there has not been and has not left a footprint in the Quran. The Quran is the equivalent of the OT. It has no equivalent to the NT, the four gospels, or Jesus teachings.

In other words, that I have used many times but that describe it so perfectly: Islam got stuck with it'S head in the ar4e of history, 1400 years deep. Were we imporved for 1000 years, it stagnated, and its people became fatalistic.

The basis for the once given superiority of Arab culture (Arab is not the same as Islamic, since Arabia was there long since before that Muhammad boy came along) was led long before Muhammad, and it carried on to puish the swing for some time after he impoacted. Nev ertheless muhammad from all beginning on established supression of arts, creative thinking, science that was not aiming at provoing why Muhammad'S words were right, because Muhammad wanted a strong army, a strong comunity - and he acchiueved that b y monoculture, totalitarian unity, supression of critics and independent thinking. In the three centuries after Muhammad, the domga strnagled arts and creativity and science and criticla thinkling more and more, and when then the Mongoles stormed over the continent and made short business with the Muslims in Persia and at that opporutnity annihilated the only, the very only really promising reformation movement there ever has been in Islam - the Islamic mystic -, the freeze was complete. Europe moved on, caught up with arabia, and finally overtook it. If I were Arab, I would be furious with rage over what Muhammad has doine to my home culture. He did the same to Arabs, like that Hitler did to Germany - just far more complete and far more total. By its starting conditions, Arabia was in such a comfrotable psotiion (trade, science, medicine, maths) that were we are today, maybe Arabia should have been today. But that was until Muhammad appeared.

This shows why I think nobody does a favour to Islam if he spares it to confront itself with it'S self-deception and its stupid medieval lies. If all world appeases it all the time, then Muslim people have no reason whatever to move, to ask questions, to start working on their cultural fate and escape stagnation. Why should they, iof they get all benefits our Western culture has invented, is given them for free? You want a modenrised, reformed MiddleEastern world? Then understand that Islam is monolithic, that you cannot sepöarate Sharia from the rest of Sunnah por the Quran, and that Islam always has been a political ideology to justify ongoing conquest and subjugation of others . It equals totalitaian ideolgoiies like Fascism, nazism, Stlanism, or Maoism. It just has a far wider, and longer aim, is unlimited in its ambitions, where all the above accepted regional and instrumental limits. Neither Mao nor Stalin nor Hitler aimed at subjugating the whole planet. Islam does. Because else, in its understanding, it cannot have peace. Its own peace, that is.

Denying all this also doesa a great injustice, even mockery, to the many apostates fro islam that accept great risks and losses to escape the tyranny it wants over theirt minds and hgearts. It mocks and ignored the women standign up againstt heir families, and the people that flee from Muslim countries to escape the barbarism and supression there. It mocks and oignroes that fact that year by year in over two dozen Musliom coutnries people get killed by Muslims for not beingMuslim, for not wanting to become Muslim, or becoming apostates. It ignores that moderate Muslims are not mainstream Muslims. The mainstream still is extremely orthdoox, and for the most acepts the rule of Shariah law. It ignores and mocks the thousands of Christians that get slaughtered in religiously motivated progroms in Africa and the ME, the many victims of terror motivated by Islamic ideology. The idoleogy of Islam breeds evil, cruelty, hate and intolerance. Because that is what it is as an ideology. It's only natural.

Since one thousand years, Jews and C hristians get symstamtically discriminated in Muslim countires, and their communities shrink and shrink. Arabia once has been a truly multi-cultural place. Today it is a dead mono-culture frozen is fanatism, and ignorrance. For every church being closed or stormed in the Muslim world, ten mosques get build in the West. For every non-Muslim cultural artifact destroyed by a Muhammeddan mob, ten Islamic propaganda centres get opened in the West.

What is so difficult there to see that we are following a self-deconstructing, suicidal course that only makes us falling back, falling back, and then falling back some more again? Islam will not become tolerant all by itself. It will not stop. It will not reform all by itself. It will not become multicultural, and embracing the other who is not Muslim. Either we have the guts and the power to make it stop and poush it back to where it belongs, or it will continue to erode us, infiltrate us, turn our laws and values against us, abuse our tolerance, outbreed us, shout us down, intimidate us, blackmail us, and occasionally bomb us.

[hixz21]

Had it thismorning myself, but passed on openiong a thread on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105

I cannot comment by thta piec eon whether the course was going too far or not, but it certainly is true that the ideology of Islam itself is the problem. It is violent, it is totalitarian, it makes supremacist claims and raises the demand that there can be no peace as long as Islam does not rule all world, it is demanding slavery of females, it is demanding discrimination and subjugation of infidels, it is racist to the very bone. One needs to poke one'S eyes out with a pencil not to see that if one spends some time on investigating Quran and the history of Sharia, Sira and Hadith.

So, the basic premise of that course, that the war must be understood to be directed against a deeply hostile and inhumane ideology motivating barbarism since over a thousand years, is correct. On the conclusions they went to in that course, I will not comment without knowing more, and in context.

That now people criticising Islam for the above qualities get bashed again by calling them phobics and insanes, just shows me how insane the place of the world is I happen to live in. It's a madhouse that denies realities that does not fit it's wishful thinking. And I have tremendously lost inteerest and motivation in the past two or three years to defend in word or even in deed this sphere of walking idiots. The current Zeitgeist gives me the strong impression that Wetserners maybe deserve to live under EU tyranny and Sharia law. They deserve it becasue they have given up to want something better, fighting to gain it, and defending the cultural heritage of the past, namely freedom, the tradition of humanism and rationality, and secularism.

If you do not appreciate freedom, you do not deserve it. That's how I see it. It's like that with most iof not all precious things and qualities, isn't it. If you cannot appreciate something, then it is wasted on you.

If my conclusion on Islam - and fundamentalist religion in general - offends anyone, as far as I am concerned he can be offended and even can drop dead, if that is what he wants. There is no right not to be offended. And notoriously offended Mulims are a plague these days. These years. These centuries . Ehm - has it ever been different? The offence lies in something existing that is still not Islamic, maybe even decides to resists to it (not the West, certainly). That is evil at its best!

I think it's wrong if you to judge Islam from Islam country in this era. Don't you know when Muhammad was still the leader of Islam in Mecca, there were still Jews and Chistians in Mecca? He protected them. Even they weren't muslim. He only fought people who went war against Islam. And they didn't kill civilians. What muslim did in that era was a true muslim. Try to read books whose writers are really know Islam from the inside and outside. The life of Islam in that era. And look, Indonesia which Islam are the dominant religion. Are ALL OF THE MUSLIM (I am sorry if the words in caps, I only want to make an assertion) hate the other religions? Hate Chirstians, Buddhism, Hinduism? All of them? No. They don't hate them. They don't offend them. They live in harmony. But still, Indonesia was attacked by terrorists. Said that Indonesian goverment supported the infidels. And the victims of the attack weren't only from foreign country, but Indonesians were also the victims. The muslims were also the victims. And ALL THE INDONESIAN MUSLIM really curse the terrorists. Muhammad didn't teach a suicide attack. Didn't teach to kill brutally. Even if when Islam is on the war, the muslim troops must be stay alive. Must appreciate the soul that has been given to them. If they intend to die by doing suicide, they aren't welcomed in the heaven. They will go to hell. Can you judge who is right? Indonesian Muslim or the terrorist?

Now, look for the Oslo bombing. The actor, Anders Behring Breivik. Killing innocent people, his own fellow Norwegian, because letting Islam and Marxism to expand. Claimed that his action was a neccessary action to defend. The point is, what ever the religion is, it depends on the individual. Even if they are Muslim, Christians, Hinduism, Buddhaism, and so on, if they think like extremist, they do like extremist. If they are b*tch (I am sorry), they are b*tch. Religion is just their excuse to do that. There aren't any religion which teach to be a terrorist. If you really know Islam, actually you would agree. Personally, I wouldn't call Mr. Breivik is a Christian terrorist. I believe Christian didn't teach such a thing. He is just a terrorist. And also I wouldn't call Osama or other people is a Islam terrorist, because Islam didn't teach such a thing that he does, killing innocent people. And for another example, I've read an article that an Arabian girl who was married a European man was killed by her family. That isn't Islam do even if the girl was converted to another religion. But it is true that such thing is a failure to teach her properly about Islam. But, it isn't an excuse to kill her. It's just the family felt embarrassed.

I think it is wise not to judge people from religion, race, country, etc. Just look the individual itself. Human is clever to make any excuse to do things. I am a muslim. And I have many christian friends. Even my best friend is a christian. We live in harmony. That is every religion teaches.

[Tribesman]

Hix, you are wasting your time, you will be met with walls of self contradictory text by the "expert" who simply makes things up and who once said he had roughly looked at a german translation of the koran as his "explaination" of how he must be right when he was told he was simply making stuff up.
Skybird believes the only muslim ever to have existed and ever to exist is the modern sunni fundamentalist flavour, even the shia are secretly wahibi apparently as are those heretics in bangladesh who are sneakily creating eurabia one switzerland at a time.

[hixz21]

Hix, you are wasting your time, you will be met with walls of self contradictory text by the "expert" who simply makes things up and who once said he had roughly looked at a german translation of the koran as his "explaination" of how he must be right when he was told he was simply making stuff up.
Skybird believes the only muslim ever to have existed and ever to exist is the modern sunni fundamentalist flavour, even the shia are secretly wahibi apparently as are those heretics in bangladesh who are sneakily creating eurabia one switzerland at a time.

Maybe you are right. But at least, I've tried to give an explanation that Islam isn't like that. Most of "Anti-Islam" don't understand Islam. Read books that twisting the facts. I just want to live harmony with other people. Don't hate each other. Then if I am not barbaric, totalitarian, etc, what am I? What are other muslim that are like me? Do ALL OF MUSLIM hate you all guys? Are muslim that don't hate you not Islam?

[August]

My question is, would the christian parts of religion have adapted and reduced their power voluntarily ?

They did.

They way I see it Islam is about where Christianity was around 700 years ago. Back then you'd have found the church every bit as bloodthirsty as some followers of Islam are today. They have mellowed a lot since then.

The main difference today I think is the advances in weapon technology. If the Conquistadors for example could kill half a million Aztecs with swords think how many more they would have killed with AK-47's and RPG's.

[Osmium Steele]

For balance can you show the version from the bible dealing with the same events?

No. This isn't a comparative religions course. You are free to do so, if you wish.

Nor is it necessary. The discussion is whether or not mainstream Islam is a threat.

[Skybird]

I think it's wrong if you to judge Islam from Islam country in this era. Don't you know when Muhammad was still the leader of Islam in Mecca, there were still Jews and Chistians in Mecca? He protected them. Even they weren't muslim.

First, the early Mekkanese period is seen as the introductory phase of Muhammad's life, anbd since he was still installing himself, he indeed was still not that bloody basterd that he later turned into, but a mixture of a desert bandit (he had attacked other caravans for prey and slaughtered their people), a caravan leader, and a traveller coming into contact with the many cults that existed on the Arab peninsula at that time. The sopcial network safeguarding the old and the weak, based on tribal rites and habiuts was about collpasiong at that time, since the rich trader caste, the Quraysh, had come to so much wealkth that they eroded that system for their own profit. That also turned Muhammad into a social critic and maybe an initial revolutionary. His often assumed epilepsia helped him in getting seen as a seer as well. After he fell out of friendship with the elites in Mekka whose profits got threatened by this troublemaker that wanted to get rid of him and his social-revolutionary "movement", they fled to Medina, where he bribed Medinese people into letting him in.

At Medina there lived three Jewish tribes whose pharisees in debate and dispute showed him how little hhis knoweldge about Jewish relgion was. He had lectured himself about Judaism (Islam did not exist, mind you) for around ten years, and thought he were an equal to them and could debate them on same eye level. He couldn'T, and the ylet him fgelt that. His narcissistic reaction - offended as this isolated, megalomainac orphant's ego felt - was to start a war of attack against these tribes, defeating two and driving them away, making a peace with the third and then struck that one again months later by surprise. All boys and males were executed on the central market place, all women were led into working slavery, all young women and girls led into sexual slavery. The Jewish culture in that palce had seized to exist. Genocide we call that today. The massacre was about around 800-900 male prisoners, and until today archeologic research in certain areas of the Medina area are forbidden by death penalty so that evidence for this mass killing should never be produced.


He only fought people who went war against Islam. And they didn't kill civilians. What muslim did in that era was a true muslim. Try to read books whose writers are really know Islam from the inside and outside.

As a matter of fact I am basing on the input of over 30 academic books about Islam'S ideology, Quran, and history, which costed me several years, and I have spend almost one and a half year in the ME, namely Iran and Turkey, but also Algeria, Egypt, and short stops in some others. It is good advise if you want objective information about an ideology that you do not ask a propagator of said ideology, since he has the agenda to defend it and let it shine nice and bright. If I want an answer to the question on the church's role in Eorpean culture, the last adress I would ask is the Vatican. If I want information about Islam, unbiased, objective, academically researched infoirmation, the last guy I ask is an imam or a sympathiser.

Muhammad fought almost 70 wars and predatory raids during the last 25 years of his life. He soon learned that religious claims about himself allowed him to silence critics and intimidate them by making any objections to his demands equal to HERESY and an offence of God in whose place he claimed to speak. When two secretaries (he could not write or read) who fixed in writing his speeches, learned that suggestions they made themselves how he could say something in a better way he later claimed to be not theirs but God's words, they were in danger for their lives and had to flee, sine they knew too much about his secrets.


The life of Islam in that era.
And mainstream Islam has not changed the ideology since then a bit, but has prolongued that era up into the present. That'S why it raises troubles whereever it arrives. Islam is nobody'S friend but everybody'S enemy.


And look, Indonesia which Islam are the dominant religion. Are ALL OF THE MUSLIM (I am sorry if the words in caps, I only want to make an assertion) hate the other religions? Hate Chirstians, Buddhism, Hinduism? All of them? No. They don't hate them. They don't offend them. They live in harmony. But still, Indonesia was attacked by terrorists. Said that Indonesian goverment supported the infidels. And the victims of the attack weren't only from foreign country, but Indonesians were also the victims. The muslims were also the victims. And ALL THE INDONESIAN MUSLIM really curse the terrorists. Muhammad didn't teach a suicide attack. Didn't teach to kill brutally. Even if when Islam is on the war, the muslim troops must be stay alive. Must appreciate the soul that has been given to them. If they intend to die by doing suicide, they aren't welcomed in the heaven. They will go to hell. Can you judge who is right? Indonesian Muslim or the terrorist?

Muhammad mocked his followers when once they were fearful and hesitent before a battle and expressed doubt, and he told them that if they loose their lives when attacking enemies of Islam, this would open the gate top paradise and they were only afraid becasue they did not know the rewards awaiting for them - the usual theistic bullsh!t religions tell soldiers before battle. The problem is that for Isalam, everything not Islamic is not a peaceful neighbour with which to coexist, but as part of the house of war is encessarily an enemy. Which concludes in that fighting against anybody not Isdlamic in true understanding is legitimate. And on suicide attacks, he actively defended that and encouraged his men to sacrifice themselves in order to bring greater damage to the enemy and overcome him. A devoute Muslim is forboidden to commit suicide in a ordinary saocial setting, say becasue he bvecame ill or old or ran out of money or was desparte. But suicide in the menaing of suicide attacks were encouraged by Muhammad.

Then, "enemy" and "Muslim". You cannot arbitrarily define being Muslim this or that way. The definition is based on the Quran and the partial contradictions in the Quran'SA suras from the early Mekkanese and the later Medinese period are in consensus solved by Islamic law schools since the 9th century by the abrogation principle, that mans that the later created sura should claim valdity over the older, if there is a contradiction. POrobölem is that the later Medinese period of Muhammad'S life is that when he had become a conqaueror and warlord and when he had set eyes on overthrowing the wholw world. It is the more violent, warmiongerting period of his life that gets authority in deciding what parts of the Quran dominate others. The suras are not given in historical order, but are soplrted by length, except the first. What is trly Muslim is not open to everybody'S individual opinion, the criterions are pretty much clearly given in the Quran. And since true Muslims - the so-called radical once who in fact are not any radical at all but just true - are obliged to subjugate infidels, and since untrue Muslims are not untgrue but no Muslims at all, it is justified, in this peridfe logic, that Musalims kill "Muslims". It even is justified to kill true Muslims if that sacrifice helps to inflict a greater damage onto the enemy. The greater cause - jihad agaiunst the house of war - justifies about everything.

I said it earlier, and I say it again, it is indeed so that many "Muslims" would not raise their hands against the infidel, but on a higher nation-wide level I see this majorty still not standing up against the true Muslims, but silently letting them do, and even more: their kindness and ethics that may hinder them to do evil is not necessarily becasue of Islamic teahcing but DESPITE Muslim teaching. The Quran is clear: fair treatement only of Muslims, dicrimination of th epeople of the book (Jews Christians) to let them feel their inferiorty and the penalty by Allah whom they refuse to follow, and deathj for all others. Regular murders of Christians and Jews, even priests, bigger progroms and civil war-like mass killings, repressions, legal inequality and hindering, disc riminatio n and intimidation in countries like Egypt, Nigeria, Somalia and Sudan, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, are the daily rule. But when somebody in the West makes a joke about Muhammad - then all Ummah cries out loud in global hysteria. What is hundreds and trhiosuands of killed Jews and Christians every year compared to a cartoon?!?! and I do not know how often I have been complimented by Muslim natives in various countries for being a German, because I should feel so proud of the acchievement of my people when under Hitler we managed to kill so wonderfully many Jews.

We have learned from our mistakes. We regret them. We developed beyond that. Most Christians (I am none, btw) do not take the bible literal anymore. We do not run progroms against Muslims. But the Muslim mainstream still does so, still does believe in the old scripture, unaltered, unreformed. The Quran still rules, Shariah still rules. Where states limit the one or the other, they indeed have abandoned Islam, and by Qzuranic understanding are legitimate targets of attacks, since they are corrupt already, and on the broink of apostacy, or beyond. Islam still lives by the old desert god'S laws, still is stuck in the past 1 thosuand years ago. Where we have been, what we have left behind - Islam is stil, there. And if we do not challenge it, if we do not cionfront it with utmost determination, then it will never chnage, and will n ever leave the old desert god and his tyrannic, psychpopathic rulership behind.

Man must leave his kindergarten years and childish literal beliefs in the desert god behind. Else man will destroy himself. In the name of the desert god. Which would rate us as truly insane, mentally ill creatures, since we would have annihilated ourselves over nothing but hallucinations.


Now, look for the Oslo bombing. The actor, Anders Behring Breivik. Killing innocent people, his own fellow Norwegian, because letting Islam and Marxism to expand. Claimed that his action was a neccessary action to defend. The point is, what ever the religion is, it depends on the individual. Even if they are Muslim, Christians, Hinduism, Buddhaism, and so on, if they think like extremist, they do like extremist. If they are b*tch (I am sorry), they are b*tch. Religion is just their excuse to do that.

Ideology has a strong motivating effect - especially when it is dressing in religious cloths. That'S why it is lectured. It is a motivational factor. So it is better to follow an ideology that does not have racism, hate and intolerance, supression, supremacism and suppression of females in it'S most profound scriptures. I fail to see that in the Quran. Muhammad became the more a tyrannic brutal warcriminal the older he became. You probably know how Turkey's Attatürk referred to him in utmost disgust and antipathy. That such a man like Muhammad, with his violent biography, is seen as a founder of a relion preaching peace and tgolerance and kindness, is an affront to reasonable thinking and an offence to any sane mind. You could as well call Stalin a liberal humanist or Hitler a candidate for the peace Nobel prize. If Muhammad would still be alive today, we should send him to The Hague, or Guantanamo. No matter where - we would lock him away, to protect our children and give them hope for a better future not messed up by this man.


There aren't any religion which teach to be a terrorist. If you really know Islam, actually you would agree. Personally, I wouldn't call Mr. Breivik is a Christian terrorist. I believe Christian didn't teach such a thing. He is just a terrorist. And also I wouldn't call Osama or other people is a Islam terrorist, because Islam didn't teach such a thing that he does, killing innocent people. And for another example, I've read an article that an Arabian girl who was married a European man was killed by her family. That isn't Islam do even if the girl was converted to another religion. But it is true that such thing is a failure to teach her properly about Islam. But, it isn't an excuse to kill her. It's just the family felt embarrassed.
Sorry, on apostacy by Shariah law is the death penalty. That is Islam, truely and in full. Skipping on that is not in conformity with Islam


I think it is wise not to judge people from religion, race, country, etc. Just look the individual itself.
I think it is wise to not judge humans on basis of their skin colour and race, but to take into account the social and cultural climate and environment they grew up in and that most likely has had an effect on their worldview and education, and I urgently press people to look very closely at what religion people claim to follow. Relgion too long has been given the benefit of doubt, and iot took all benefits and allowed no doubts. Theistic religion is the biggest tyrant in human history, and it is dripping with blood. To hell with it, and all names it has given to its idols and deities.

P.S. German has just suspended its first police inspector who abused his position on behalf of the salafist movement which in Germany is seen as a threat to the constitutional order and is under surveillance by intelligence service and that Staatsschutz. The man most likely will get fired from service, and most likely will go to the court, since infiltration of the social institutions as well as the security structures of the state is of utmost priority for Salafist and other Muslim colonists wanting Sharia law in Germany. During riots Salafists have attacked policemen with knifes and intentionally stabbed three of them, several dozen police officers got wounded in the ongoing riot. There are charges over attempted murder, and arrests. Riots broke out because the Salafists are running a campaign in the streets to distribute one Quran per household in germany, but had a problem with a counter movement protesting against a Salafi mosque and held up signs repeating the famous Danish bomb-in-a-turban cartoon.

It's so good to have guests like this who respect the house right of the owner and behave accordingly.

Primitives. Dangerous, unscrupullous, underhanded - but still just primitives.

[Skybird]

Has anyone cared to read the original material from that course? Here is the link again, since this is what the topic really is about.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/05/dooley_counter_jihad_op_design_v11.pdf

[MH]

Seems like US military is doing its job.
Theorising how to win conflicts.

[Tribesman]

No. This isn't a comparative religions course. You are free to do so, if you wish.

Nor is it necessary. The discussion is whether or not mainstream Islam is a threat.
You are the one that tried to make a comparison yet shy away froim the comparison
If you want to show an example of how it is so much worse then why do you shy away from the same episode in the other books which would have to be so much better for your point to stand?
Is it because your example fails?:yep:
BTW which flavour of which sect is mainstream islam?


On to Sky
As a matter of fact I am basing on the input of over 30 academic books about Islam'S ideology
"academic" ??????? he has linked to some really crazy websites as proof of his claims when asked for the "academic" sources:rotfl2:

Sorry, on apostacy by Shariah law is the death penalty.That is Islam, truely and in full. Skipping on that is not in conformity with Islam


See he can't help himself.:har::har::har::har:
For a bonus Hix ask him what sharia means, thats always good for a laugh

I think it is wise to not judge humans on basis of their skin colour and race
Is this the same person who posted the article about black people ruining the world cup when he wanted to moan about one of the european soccer teams?:yep:

[em2nought]

Seems like US military is doing its job.
Theorising how to win conflicts.

Oh BS, we haven't been "in it to win it" since WWII. :damn:

[Skybird]

Another feel-good-in peaceful-Islam-news from Indonesia.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/hardliners-in-bekasi-throw-stones-at-ascension-day-service/518398#Scene_1


A mob of Islamic hard-liners threw stones and bags of urine at the HKBP Filadelphia congreagation of the Batak Christian Protestant Church in Bekasi, on the outskirts of Jakarta, at an Ascension Day service on Thursday. Police tried to stop the mob of some 300 people, but were also attacked, according to reports.

***8220;They assaulted the congregation members,***8221; Rev. Palti Panjaitan told the Jakarta Globe on Thursday. ***8220;Police tried to talk to them, but the mob passed through police and showered us with urine and dirty water. Others threw stones at us.***8221;

The mob reportedly attacked the congregation as the service started, and also shouted profanity and threats.

***8220;Even after the service, which lasted one-and-a-half hours, the mob chased after us,***8221; Rev. Palti said. ***8220;Thank God the police escorted us to a safe area.

HKBP Filadelphia submitted an application for a building permit in 2007, but church leaders say that despite meeting all the requirements, including the agreement of their neighbors, a permit was never issued.

On Dec. 31, 2009, the Bekasi district head issued a letter banning the members of the congregation from worshiping on the land, forcing the 560 members to hold services along the side of the road fronting the property.

In July 2011, the Supreme Court overruled the Bekasi administration***8217;s decision, saying the church was eligible for a building permit. The court ordered Bekasi to issue one ***8212; but the district government ignored the ruling.

Members of the congregation say that Islamic hard-liners have been intimidating and threatening them at their services since January.


It's all a happy family there, yes. The reasonable, moderate, tolerant majority of peaceful, tolerant, multicultural Muslims obviously does not care enough to get the thing of systematic discrimination of Christian minorities solved, not even mentioning the Jews.

You get judged by the company you choose or at least tolerate. And as the saying goes: you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows.

Foer the record, the legal discrimination as well as attacks on churches are being rpeorted form indoneisa frequently. Especially the legal discrimination by courts and the government is reported since years to be in a steep raise. Which is no surprise since this is the case in almost all Muslim countries, including "Western allies" like Egypt and Turkey.

But beware that glass of water that accidentally gets spilled in a Mosque in one Western country - then the zombie army is marching around the globe immediately!

[Skybird]

Hehehe, I just imagined we do not publish just a Muhammad cartoon, but dare to throw bags of urine (pig's urine, maybe?) at a Muslim crowd after Friday prayers. Can anyone imagine what that would cause, globally? Ummah United! Fire around the world!

[Tribesman]

You get judged by the company you choose or at least tolerate. And as the saying goes: you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows.

Errrrrrr...those protests you went to against muslimsand and those groups you protested with against immigrants were (according to you yourself) full of neo nazis.
Flying with the crows eh?:rotfl2: