View Full Version : Key '9/11 plotter' due in court
Jimbuna
05-05-12, 06:53 AM
Looks like the process will soon begin and depending on the outcome a lot of people may eventually get some closure.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four other men accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks are to be charged by a military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay.
Jim Harrington, the civilian lawyer for Ramzi Binalshibh, told Associated Press that although his client had previously said he was "proud" of his role in the attacks he had "no intention of pleading guilty".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17966362
BossMark
05-05-12, 09:44 AM
Theres only one sentence that these scum deserve...............
Osmium Steele
05-05-12, 03:26 PM
Theres only one sentence that these scum deserve...............
Death by skyscraper collapse...
Platapus
05-05-12, 04:41 PM
Theres only one sentence that these scum deserve...............
Having been duly convicted by a nation of laws, the only sentence they deserve is to stay at some prison for the rest of their lives. Leavenworth has some nice isolated cells in the basements. No interviews, no statements, no followers, no martyrdom, no press coverage. We need to pull a Noriega on these guys, but in this case for life.
They need to be forgotten like the blot on humanity they are. We need to demonstrate that they are nothing to fear.
Having been duly convicted by a nation of laws, the only sentence they deserve is to stay at some prison for the rest of their lives. Leavenworth has some nice isolated cells in the basements. No interviews, no statements, no followers, no martyrdom, no press coverage. We need to pull a Noriega on these guys, but in this case for life.
They need to be forgotten like the blot on humanity they are. We need to demonstrate that they are nothing to fear.
I agree. They must be treated like common criminals rather than allow them to become 'martyrs' in the eyes of other criminals. Send them down and let them rot.
Osmium Steele
05-05-12, 08:43 PM
I agree. They must be treated like common criminals rather than allow them to become 'martyrs' in the eyes of other criminals. Send them down and let them rot.
But they wouldn't rot. They'd get 2 hots and a cot, 30 minutes of exercise per day, the best medical care the government system can provide, guaranteed visits from the International Red Cross, and continued access to legal counsel constantly working for their release.
Remember, we're "the good guys" (tm). They'd be treated way better than they "deserve".
I'm not a big eye for an eye fan; however, they deserve the same fate as the wicked witch of the east, only with a much bigger house.
BossMark
05-06-12, 01:37 AM
Having been duly convicted by a nation of laws, the only sentence they deserve is to stay at some prison for the rest of their lives. Leavenworth has some nice isolated cells in the basements. No interviews, no statements, no followers, no martyrdom, no press coverage. We need to pull a Noriega on these guys, but in this case for life.
They need to be forgotten like the blot on humanity they are. We need to demonstrate that they are nothing to fear.
I agree. They must be treated like common criminals rather than allow them to become 'martyrs' in the eyes of other criminals. Send them down and let them rot.
Keeping filth like this alive is just a waste of the tax payers money.
Tribesman
05-06-12, 01:46 AM
Having been duly convicted by a nation of laws, the only sentence they deserve is to stay at some prison for the rest of their lives. Leavenworth has some nice isolated cells in the basements. No interviews, no statements, no followers, no martyrdom, no press coverage. We need to pull a Noriega on these guys, but in this case for life.
They need to be forgotten like the blot on humanity they are. We need to demonstrate that they are nothing to fear.
:yep:
Well since he's an 'animal' send to the vet and have him put down!:yep:
Catfish
05-06-12, 05:18 AM
[...] We need to pull a Noriega on these guys, but in this case for life.
While i think it right to give them no martyr status by locking them away i really hope you did not mean that Noriega thingie earnest ? :shifty:
kraznyi_oktjabr
05-06-12, 07:20 AM
Problematic situation. Its hard to decide what would be good way to treat them if court finds them guilty.
Killing them would be both good and bad thing. In other hand it would be appropriate for their crime but in other hand it would make them 'martyrs' which is a bad thing.
Locking them into their own isolation cell for rest of their lives would deny 'martyr' status but it would be gross wasting of tax payers money.
Good that somebody else has to make the call.
Platapus
05-06-12, 11:06 AM
While i think it right to give them no martyr status by locking them away i really hope you did not mean that Noriega thingie earnest ? :shifty:
My reference to Noriega was a reference to how he served his sentence in US prison -- no interviews, no press. I think most Americans forgot he was even there. That's the only comparison I meant. These scum need to be forgotten. Their acts won't be forgotten.
Platapus
05-06-12, 11:07 AM
As a "waste of taxpayer money" this would rank pretty far down on the list.
Jimbuna
05-06-12, 11:09 AM
I'm honestly thinking the only penalty if convicted can be death...otherwise evry hostage in the future will be used as a means of trying to garner their release.
It was good enough for Bin Liner it should be good enough for them.
Platapus
05-06-12, 11:10 AM
guaranteed visits from the International Red Cross,
Why would they have visits from the IRC? They are not prisoners of war, but criminals. The IRC does not visit other criminals even foreign nationals we have in prison.
Stealhead
05-06-12, 12:45 PM
I take it know one has yet heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgGh7BYQ8jE I know it is Al Jazeera English by the way it was the only video news link I could find
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-gitmo-mohammad-arraignment-begins20120505,0,6952315.story
The defense attorneys should feel ashamed of themselves for their actions.
Tribesman
05-06-12, 02:01 PM
I take it know one has yet heard:
Did you expect any different?
this is only another small chapter in the fiasco, the actual trial isn't going to start for another year and even then will probably drag on for years.
The defense attorneys should feel ashamed of themselves for their actions.
All parties who have made a mess of this process from start to finish should be ashamed of themselves.
Jimbuna
05-06-12, 02:46 PM
Simply playing to the nedia/stage whilst trying to buy time.
The minute glass has been turned and their sands of time will eventually run out.
BossMark
05-07-12, 01:59 AM
I just can not understand how anyone can defend garbage like this (the lawyers). I could not represent vermin like this no matter how much I was offered.:nope:
Sailor Steve
05-07-12, 10:51 AM
"Every defendant deserves good counsel."
-John Adams, on why he agreed to defend the accused in the 'Boston Massacre' trial. He won the case, but destroyed his legal career in the process.
Indeed, the rule of law, you start skipping little bits and eventually you end up in Freisler territory.
What do you say about this?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/guantanamo-trial-defendants-prayer/2012/05/07/id/438251
Markus
Sailor Steve
05-07-12, 03:04 PM
What do you say about this?
I say it's a blatant attempt to control the proceedings under the guise of protecting their rights. It's a simple matter of trying to be in charge. The accused have rights, under the "innocent until proven guilty" mandate. Among those is not the right to subvert the law for their own use. It's too bad they don't grant others those same rights.
Tribesman
05-07-12, 03:10 PM
Indeed, the rule of law, you start skipping little bits and eventually you end up in Freisler territory.
To which you should include the attempts at skipping which have led to fiasco.
What do you say about this?
So is she saying her clients are a bunch of wonkers who can't control themselves?
I say it's a blatant attempt to control the proceedings under the guise of protecting their rights. It's a simple matter of trying to be in charge. The accused have rights, under the "innocent until proven guilty" mandate. Among those is not the right to subvert the law for their own use. It's too bad they don't grant others those same rights.
Of course, the accused have certain rights. But to go so far as to demand that all women who are in that court, must be complete covered, is to go to its knees to their religion.
This comes as no surprise. Even our our Danish politician is pandering to this religion.
Markus
u crank
05-07-12, 04:40 PM
Of course, the accused have certain rights. But to go so far as to demand that all women who are in that court, must be complete covered, is to go to its knees to their religion.
This comes as no surprise. Even our our Danish politician is pandering to this religion.
Give in on this point and what's next? No none Muslims on bench or jury. No Jews in the courtroom. It's ridiculous.:nope:
Takeda Shingen
05-07-12, 05:13 PM
Should have tried this in NYC right in the shadow of Ground Zero. Most New Yorkers I know would have drooled over the chance to get him. Instead, we're dragging this out in the military system. He's been in custody since 2003, we're only starting this thing now and things won't get rolling again for another year. These people don't have to make a mockery of the system, we are doing a fine enough job of it ourselves.
Sailor Steve
05-07-12, 06:53 PM
Of course, the accused have certain rights. But to go so far as to demand that all women who are in that court, must be complete covered, is to go to its knees to their religion.
This comes as no surprise. Even our our Danish politician is pandering to this religion.
Markus
Give in on this point and what's next? No none Muslims on bench or jury. No Jews in the courtroom. It's ridiculous.:nope:
Did you both miss the whole point of what I said? I didn't defend them, but agreed with you. Geez, you're as bad as Skybird!
Of course it's ridiculous.
u crank
05-07-12, 07:14 PM
Did you both miss the whole point of what I said? I didn't defend them, but agreed with you. Geez, you're as bad as Skybird!
Of course it's ridiculous.
Sorry Steve, I wasn't responding to your post. I read the link that Markus posted and was agreeing with his comment about the religious aspect of it.
I think that this lawyer is pulling a publicity stunt, perhaps looking to the future. Book deal, maybe.:hmmm:
CaptainHaplo
05-07-12, 07:46 PM
When found guilty (when, not if) - all 5 should be locked into the same room together, nude. They should be told that only one of them has been given a death sentence, but not told which one. They should be given less than enough food needed for them all, so as to make them fight to survive. When the first dies, leave the body and cut off the food. Make the body an attractive food option for the rest. *guards speculating what human flesh tasts like, etc. LWhen they eat the first, and are starving, they will kill another. When the the first 4 die and are consumed, then take the last one out, throw him into a full septic tank and watch him drown. Video it all for the Islamic masses to see their martys great "victory".
Let them see the wonder and glory of crossing the US. Let them get the image burned into their brain of how holy and celebratoryand glorious it is for these "martyrs" to make their way to allah.
If your going to do something - do it right....
Just sayin.....
mookiemookie
05-07-12, 08:44 PM
Should have tried this in NYC right in the shadow of Ground Zero. Most New Yorkers I know would have drooled over the chance to get him. Instead, we're dragging this out in the military system. He's been in custody since 2003, we're only starting this thing now and things won't get rolling again for another year. These people don't have to make a mockery of the system, we are doing a fine enough job of it ourselves.
Indeed. The way to show these bastages that we're not afraid of them, and that they have no power over us is to try them as we would try any other individual, in a regular court room in NYC and then sentence them to a hole of a jail cell to be forgotten, a la Noriega. Not give them the glamour, importance and and satisfaction of us making a big deal out of their trial.
Platapus
05-07-12, 09:24 PM
One of the reasons the trial needed to take place at Gitmo was to make that holding facility constitutional. Article 3 section 2.
Jimbuna
05-08-12, 05:32 AM
Should have tried this in NYC right in the shadow of Ground Zero. Most New Yorkers I know would have drooled over the chance to get him. Instead, we're dragging this out in the military system. He's been in custody since 2003, we're only starting this thing now and things won't get rolling again for another year. These people don't have to make a mockery of the system, we are doing a fine enough job of it ourselves.
Precisely :yep:
When found guilty (when, not if) - all 5 should be locked into the same room together, nude. They should be told that only one of them has been given a death sentence, but not told which one. They should be given less than enough food needed for them all, so as to make them fight to survive. When the first dies, leave the body and cut off the food. Make the body an attractive food option for the rest. *guards speculating what human flesh tasts like, etc. LWhen they eat the first, and are starving, they will kill another. When the the first 4 die and are consumed, then take the last one out, throw him into a full septic tank and watch him drown. Video it all for the Islamic masses to see their martys great "victory".
Let them see the wonder and glory of crossing the US. Let them get the image burned into their brain of how holy and celebratoryand glorious it is for these "martyrs" to make their way to allah.
If your going to do something - do it right....
Just sayin.....
I understand your sentiments but if that did happen you had better prepare yourself for reciprocal actions against your own people being televised worldwide.
CaptainHaplo
05-08-12, 06:51 PM
I understand your sentiments but if that did happen you had better prepare yourself for reciprocal actions against your own people being televised worldwide.
4 words.....
Too Late
Daniel Pearl
Jimbuna
05-09-12, 06:27 AM
4 words.....
Too Late
Daniel Pearl
Yes I was aware of that tragic event but what I meant was, such actions would become much more frequent.
CaptainHaplo
05-09-12, 10:09 AM
They do their utmost to kill, torture, abuse and publicize those they capture. That won't change whether or not we treat them like the scum they are.
Then again - if I had my way, it wouldn't be a question of worrying about our folks, because the conflict would be prosecuted entirely differenlty.
Catfish
05-09-12, 10:14 AM
They do their utmost to kill, torture, abuse and publicize those they capture.
We all know they did organize and execute terroristic actions, which is bad enough and for what they shall be punished alright.
Can you please give some examples how "they kill, torture and abuse those they capture" ?
Tribesman
05-09-12, 10:17 AM
They do their utmost to kill, torture, abuse and publicize those they capture. That won't change whether or not we treat them like the scum they are.
So do you propose to become scum just like them?
I could understand the merits of it if you were making these proposals as an effort to stop them acting like scum. But just becoming scum yourself isn't a very great objective to aim for.:doh:
CaptainHaplo
05-09-12, 10:52 AM
Judith and David Tebbutt - he was murdered and she was kept in captivity for 7 months - learning weeks after the start that her husband had been killed.
Or would you rather look at Scott and Jean Adams, Phyllis Macay and Bob Riggle?
Perhaps you'd rather consider the case of Taliban commander Siraj Haqqani - who would rape any pretty young girl who passed a screening - on camera. Oh - and when found out - he did what any good, pious Muslim would do - he started killing all the witnesses.
That work for abuse and killing?
Publicize? Warren Weinstein ring a bell? After all - the terms set to release him are a known non-starter for all involved - so its a matter of time before he is dead as well.... Poor man - he is already dead and just his body just hasn't caught on to that fact.
Or does he not count becase he is jewish?
How about Daniela Widmer and David Och - the swiss couple who had to plead for their lives? Luckily, they were able to survive. How often does that happen?
And if you want to make it about American Military folks....
Bowe Robert Bergahl
To date - he has been shown in 5 seperate videos that I know of. Held in captivity for 3 years now......If he is still alive. Given the reports that he tried to escape and was "recaptured" and has since not been seen, his survival is highly questionable at this point.
We have tried to "out-nice" our enemies for over a decade - and it has done nothing good. Providing health care, religious services and texts, soccer fields and all kinds of other things to those who would saw off our heads as we screamed like Pearle did - has not convinced them that they should stop screwing around with us. So after more than a decade of failure, perhaps its time to try another path.....
Tribesman
05-09-12, 01:26 PM
posted by haplo
blah blah blah blah
don't you dare try and inform me as you are totally clueless on the matter beyond what you read in the media
you are so far out of your depth you couldn't swim to shore with proffesional help.
So forget all your empty rubbish and explain how your policy of becoming just as scummy as the murdering bastards can have anything even remotely positive to support it?
Enola Gay's and Bockscar's crews were not prosecuted nor condemned for the killing of tens (or hundreds) of thousands of civilian (and innocent) victims at Hiroshima or Nagasaki ...
CaptainHaplo
05-09-12, 04:03 PM
Enola Gay's and Bockscar's crews were not prosecuted nor condemned for the killing of tens (or hundreds) of thousands of civilian (and innocent) victims at Hiroshima or Nagasaki ...
What has that got to do with the price of rice in china? They were prosecuting a declared war against an enemy who refused to surrender. Their actions also likely SAVED the lived of a million or more people....
Seriously - stay on topic...
About "price", what was the price for each so "saved" US soldier ? Four Japanese women and five children ?
Seriously, the defendants at Guantanamo Bay consider themselves in war with the United States.
I even believe that they are locked up in a military prison and judged by a military tribunal. Maybe because they are prisoners of war ...
CaptainHaplo
05-09-12, 04:35 PM
About "price", what was the price for each so "saved" US soldier ? Four Japanese women and five children ?
Seriously, the defendants at Guantanamo Bay consider themselves in war with the United States.
I even believe that they are locked up in a military prison and judged by a military tribunal. Maybe because they are prisoners of war ...
Actually - its estimated that both sides would have suffered over half a million casualties each - the Japanese bearing the brunt. So what is better - 200k dead or injured, or 750k dead or injured? Not to mention the wholesale destruction of whatever was left of mainland Japan.
They can consider themselves at war with us - but they don't fall under the geneva convention (they are not a recognized signatory and their own actions violated it) so we can treat them any way we as a nation at war choose. Using them to show the world and their islamic brothers the realities of trying to carry out a war against the US.
Tribesman
05-09-12, 04:48 PM
They can consider themselves at war with us - but they don't fall under the geneva convention (they are not a recognized signatory and their own actions violated it) so we can treat them any way we as a nation at war choose. Using them to show the world and their islamic brothers the realities of trying to carry out a war against the US.
The US supreme court says you are talking rubbish.
The US dept of defence says you are talking rubbish
Even president Bush eventually said you are talking rubbish.
So it seems your country is pretty set on the matter officially and you are still stuck 6 years behind the game.
Takeda Shingen
05-09-12, 05:09 PM
They can consider themselves at war with us - but they don't fall under the geneva convention (they are not a recognized signatory and their own actions violated it) so we can treat them any way we as a nation at war choose. Using them to show the world and their islamic brothers the realities of trying to carry out a war against the US.
These would be the reasons that I am against a military tribunal. Using one moves toward labeling them as enemy combatants, giving legitimacy to their operation. Instead, we should have tried this in civilian court; treating them as nothing more than the common criminals they are.
Tribesman
05-09-12, 05:21 PM
These would be the reasons that I am against a military tribunal. Using one moves toward labeling them as enemy combatants, giving legitimacy to their operation. Instead, we should have tried this in civilian court; treating them as nothing more than the common criminals they are.
Exactly, every attempt a avoiding the laws or writing new laws just for these cases has dragged out the process delaying justice ....or backfired completely.
200k dead or injured, or 750k dead or injured?
200k dead or injured Japanese civilians versus 750k dead or injured US soldiers ?
Such is the problem : war crime for some, a glorious action for others ...
Enola Gay's and Bockscar, which dropped for the first time "weapons of mass destruction", are still proudly presented in American museums.
I remember a Russian Museum, where was proudly exhibited (during many years) the gun which killed the Tsarevich Alexei (14 years old) in Yekaterinburg ...
CaptainHaplo
05-09-12, 06:00 PM
dgn...
"I asked General Marshall what it would cost in lives to land on the Tokio plain and other places in Japan," Truman said later. "It was his opinion that such an invasion would cost at minimum one quarter of a million casualties, and might cost as much as a million, on the American side alone, with an equal number of the enemy. The other military and naval men present agreed."
(20) Truman, letter to Cate, January 12, 1953, reproduced in Craven and Cate, Army Air Forces.
http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/sson3.asp
So as much as 2 Million dead - a Million on each side....
The JPS committee concluded:
"In our Saipan operation, it cost approximately one American killed and several wounded to exterminate seven Japanese soldiers. On this basis it might cost us half a million American lives and many times that number wounded . . . in the home islands." *Sourced below
So if you have one dead and "several" wounded for every 7 dead Japanese - your looking at 500k dead Americans - thats 3.5 Million dead Japanese SOLDIERS. This does not even count civilian losses which were considered to be very high under the assumption that civilians would resist. So with that estimate you have well over 4 Million dead....
"The implied top-end figure of approximately 1,700,000 to 2,000,000 battle casualties built on the basis of the Saipan ratio was slashed down to a best-case scenario figure that was not so huge as to make the task ahead appear insurmountable, and use of a 500,000 battle casualty figure was "the operative one at the working level"
http://home.roadrunner.com/~casualties/
A reprint of:
CASUALTY PROJECTIONS FOR THE U.S. INVASIONS OF JAPAN, 1945-1946: PLANNING AND POLICY IMPLICATIONS
by D. M. Giangreco in the Journal of Military History, 61 (July 1997)
And just so we are clear - the total attributed deaths from the 2 atomic bombs is 110k - you can add 2x that for fallout related deaths. Still well under anything like what an invasion would have caused.
And this still has nothing to do with the original topic......
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