One for good guys, one less tyrant

[yubba]

http://news.yahoo.com/epa-region-head-resigns-crucifixion-talk-172408725.html


EPA region head resigns after crucifixion talk

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/FZN6924R0WZ__x92.x6.GA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9Mjc-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/logo/reuters/d0c3eb8ca18907492a4b337b5cec5193.jpeg
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A regional Environmental Protection Agency chief based in Dallas resigned late Sunday after a 2010 comment surfaced in which he compared his enforcement of energy companies with crucifixion, to make examples out of them to scare others to get in line.
Al Armendariz, who was the chief of EPA's Region 6 office, sent his letter of resignation over the weekend. A video of his talk was circulated by lawmakers including Senator James Inhofe, a Republican.
"Over the weekend Dr. Armendariz offered his resignation, which I accepted," EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson said in release on Monday. "I respect the difficult decision he made and his wish to avoid distracting from important work of the agency, by taking 4 hour lunches, driving on under inflated tires, over regulating the industry, causing the cost of gas to skyrocket to all time highs, and causing the economic downturn. Say Hi to Mr Weiner and those Secret Service guys"

[mookiemookie]

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/images/11-3-52.jpg

[yubba]

I think I know that story, Fire on the Hudson, still hasn't been cleaned up, can you say governmental corruption, how about some equal justice for all, not pay to play you make a mess you clean it up. You think China has an EPA.

[mookiemookie]

It's actually a picture of the Cuyahoga River fire in 1969 that helped spur the creation of the EPA. At the time of the 1969 fire, the river was so polluted with oily residue that animal life didn't exist in the river.

http://blog.cleveland.com/science_impact/2009/06/large_Richard-Ellers-Cuyahoga-River-goop.jpg

If this is what you get when you get rid of an agency that "over regulates an industry" (and the part about that causing the financial crisis is so stupidly wrong that it doesn't even warrant a response) then I'm all for over regulation.

"Over regulation of industry" indeed.

And no, China does not have an EPA. And due to that, their rivers look like this:

http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/98/89998-004-37CFF07D.jpg

Get out of industry's way, they said. We need to create jobs, they said.

[TarJak]

You think China has an EPA.Actually yes I do: http://english.mep.gov.cn/

Might help to use Google before inserting your foot in your mouth.:03:

[yubba]

Well it wouldn't be the first time, and is their EPA as corrupt as ours or is it a toss up, I really like the lead paint in their toys and the poisons in their pet food, give a hoot don't pollute. Our air and water is cleaner now than it has been in the last 100 years, and the reason for that, is most of our industry has left the country, even 40 years ago the government was turning a blind eye, while its' pocket was getting filled with piles of money, still government corruption, and pollution. Now here in the future we have better and cleaner ways to do things, we don't need an unelected government agency too put a strangle hold on our energy and oil industry, with our economy in the tank, until they get a greene way to get a 747 airborne, the government should do what ever they can do to help the energy industry grow in a safe and clean matter. The government doesn't want private oil companies or private energy companies, they want to nationalize the oil industry, more money, and power for them. I guess you like paying 4 dollars a gallon.

[mookiemookie]

Actually yes I do: http://english.mep.gov.cn/

Might help to use Google before inserting your foot in your mouth.:03:

I guess I stand corrected and can you please pass the ketchup for the Nike that's now lodged firmly in my mouth. :shucks:

But still...a fat lotta good they're doing, eh?


and the reason for that, is most of our industry has left the country

Really now? I guess you better let the food, drug, defense, computer, construction equipment, motor vehicle, aerospace, chemicals, software, entertainment, lumber and farm industries know this. In fact, if the U.S. industrial sector alone was it's own economy, it would be the eighth largest in the world. (http://www.shopfloor.org/2011/03/u-s-manufacturing-remains-worlds-largest/18756)

But don't let facts stand in the way of what you know to be true.

[antikristuseke]

Since when have facts been an issue in politicing?:o

[Stealhead]

I am not so sure about the EPA.Let me tell you a little secret about the EPA
I have an EPA 608 certification that allows me to handle refrigeration you receive the card buy passing a test that asks you a few hundred questions about what you are and are not supposed to in relation to refrigeration if you pass you get the cert.

Now the little secret; not one person from the EPA will ever come and check on me or anyone else and actually verify if the EPA rules are being obeyed at all.Trust me plenty of guys just let the refrigerant(aka Freon but that is really a DuPont name for a specific type) right into the air the EPA in most cases relies on self policing :haha::haha::haha: so you might have a company rat out another I suppose but I have not heard of this in the HVAC industry that or an employee to dime to the EPA which is not likely seeing as if the company gets a huge fine they might go out of business or lay guys off meaning that reporting to the EPA is risking job loss.In theory the EPA can check on any HVAC or refrigeration related company but I have not heard of it ever being done.The better companies due follow some or most of the rules but many techs do not some companies will try and sell old refrigerants that they recovered even from damaged units as new(banned by the EPA) but how do you know what is what a tech can just lie to you the only way you would know is if you know what to look for.

I think that they do actually check on factories and the like that have scrubbers and that produce liquid waste(that might get dumped) from what i understand the fines for being in violation are cheaper to larger companies than actually being "clean" so to speak so the big boys just pay the fines and keep on keeping on oh and more often than not the head of the EPA is a former head of EPA regulated industry is a guy that worked for a major polluter really going to regulate.

The EPA might be better than its Chinese counterpart but tell me what did you see the last time you looked at the horizon of any large city that is the EPA hard at work.Yubba has it wrong if anything the EPA favors industry if you are one person or a small company the fines will put you out of business if you are a fortune 500 company the fines are part of doing business.Also many of the requirements do not apply to older facilities they get grandfathered in and need only fallow the rules for when the facility was built or had a refit so if a pulp mill was constructed in 1985 and nothing has been added or refitted they pump out 1985 poisons all day long.

I think that Yubba is correct the lower leves of pollution in the US has much more to do with most of the heavy pollution causing industry having been moved out of the country more than EPA regulations over seas they can pollute and pay little or no fines which means saves costs why pay the higher EPA fine when you can pay none and get cheaper labor to boot.

[Tribesman]

Now the little secret; not one person from the EPA will ever come and check on me or anyone else and actually verify if the EPA rules are being obeyed at all.
The purpose of those certs is to make it easier to prosecute if there ever is an issue that comes to light.
It proves that you did something you knew you wasn't meant to and that they had fulfilled theit obligation to instruct you in what you are not supposed to do.
It works the same as with safety certs.


their rivers look like this:


We want chinese rivers, they are beautifiul and colourful. I know they had the yellow river but that one is even better as its red and yellow and pink and blue.

[Ducimus]

Original poster should google image search "china pollution" sometime.

[Onkel Neal]

It's actually a picture of the Cuyahoga River fire in 1969 that helped spur the creation of the EPA. At the time of the 1969 fire, the river was so polluted with oily residue that animal life didn't exist in the river.



If this is what you get when you get rid of an agency that "over regulates an industry" (and the part about that causing the financial crisis is so stupidly wrong that it doesn't even warrant a response) then I'm all for over regulation.

"Over regulation of industry" indeed.

And no, China does not have an EPA. And due to that, their rivers look like this:



Get out of industry's way, they said. We need to create jobs, they said.

I'm with you on this one. These regulations are necessary. Sometimes they go a little overboard, but I cannt see how we could function without the EPA. I worked for a chemical plant, I know how the environment suffered in the past and would be affected today without the EPA.

China may have an EPA, but it must be a weak agency, it doesn't look very effective.

[mookiemookie]

I'm with you on this one. These regulations are necessary. Sometimes they go a little overboard, but I cannt see how we could function without the EPA. I worked for a chemical plant, I know how the environment suffered in the past and would be affected today without the EPA.

Wanting to streamline or rework regulations that are currently not working is fine. It's when I hear people say things like the EPA needs to be completely dismantled and that they're "tyrants" is when I start thinking "Is this guy nuts?" The past few years have made it very clear that self-regulation is the same as no regulation at all.

[yubba]

Man, sometimes I wonder about some of you guys, you completely missed the point and I got dragged along with it, this isn't about the agency it's about the people in it and how they abuse their power, I can't believe the guy just upped and resigned so what other abuses was he involved with ??? And some of you guys got tunnel vision, you only got your sights on the illkes of America, well what's going on in the Amazon, heck I don't even know if there's a rainforest left, and how about Africa, those folks are so poor, the only industry they got is charcoal that means cutting down trees and burning them, that's got to be an environmental nightmare in its self, so I don't think America is a major culprit of the worlds enviromental woes especially seeing pictures from China. In America we can do it better and cleaner but the Marxist won't get out of the way.

[antikristuseke]

You know that saying two wrongs don't make a right? Just because there are worse environmental issues elsewhere does not bloody well mean everything is fine and dandy where you are.

[Bubblehead1980]

EPA is like anything with the government, started with best of intentions but when we get radicals like Obama involved or Al Gore types etc, corrupt, narrow minded people are put in charge who have no idea how to properly function in the economy while doing their job.The other problem is, people like Obama misuse it to try and force things like cap and trade on us without legislation OR attempt to ruin the coal industry.Bottom line, we need it, but it needs a major reform and need to put new people from the outside in charge and weed out the wackos.Perhaps once Obama is out of office..

[yubba]

You know that saying two wrongs don't make a right? Just because there are worse environmental issues elsewhere does not bloody well mean everything is fine and dandy where you are.
I don't know what you've been told, we are, way lot cleaner than most Industrial countries and I can say with confidence, we are fine and dandy, I can go down to the river and catch a fish and eat it, can you say the same.???? I have always wondered what they were thinking when they cut down the last tree on Easter Island TTTTTiiiiimmmmmbbbbbeeerrrrrrrrrrr comes to mind.

[antikristuseke]

Yes, I can.
I nave no idea what Easter Island has to do with this though.

Anyway, institutions like EPA are a necessity, though streamlining them and fighting with corruption also has to take place and the EPA is the reason your rivers are clean enough to fish from again.

[Stealhead]

The purpose of those certs is to make it easier to prosecute if there ever is an issue that comes to light.
It proves that you did something you knew you wasn't meant to and that they had fulfilled theit obligation to instruct you in what you are not supposed to do.
It works the same as with safety certs.



Not really it is more a way to make money as you must pay the EPA to take the test and as I said the 608 covered things are self policed so you only have to follow them to the T if you are honest and really want to because virtually no one else knows what can and cannot be done so unless they see some guy say allow all the refrigerant flow into the air (and they happen to know it cannot be done) the EPA will never know about it.Also there is another rule called de minous which allows for the small leaks that occur so if a tech did get reported on he could easily claim that it a de minous occurrence and the EPA would have little way to disprove that claim.As I said though seeing as it is self policed and that basically you would have to turn yourself in (never going to happen) or another person that knows the regulations would have to turn you and and prove you did willingly violate.I know just from word of mouth form guys that work for numerous companies that many do not really care the bottom line being what ever is the cheapest for us do that so it boils down to guys that actually care about following the rules (which most that I work with do) and the ones that do not.

You can think that the system has an effect but it really has almost none when it is plainly known that few lay persons would know an EPA violation if they saw in regards to the handling of refrigerant.Also in the grand scheme of things the parts of the world where some form of refrigeration is used(many) most of them have little or no regulations and they do much more damage that the EPA can do nothing about at all.

You are trying to tell me how something works in a nation that you do not even live in a job that you know nothing about I work in this industry in the US so I know what goes down I can tell you the companies that follow the rules and which ones do not if I know then the EPA must know but they either do not or they do not care to fully enforce.Sure they rely on self policing but that basically means that people within the violating company must report which places their job in jeopardy for most people putting food on the table is more important than being a "good citizen".

[yubba]

Yes, I can.
I nave no idea what Easter Island has to do with this though.

Anyway, institutions like EPA are a necessity, though streamlining them and fighting with corruption also has to take place and the EPA is the reason your rivers are clean enough to fish from again.
What you never heard of Easter island, that ties in fittingly, a great story of a great civilization, the trees on the island provided food, building resources and fuel, they cut and built, and cut to warm them selves right down to the last tree, you can figure it out from there, I don't recall our whole nation had been a polluted waste land. You couldn't pay me to fish in Europe, you all been p-ing in your streams since the birth of Christ.

[Dowly]

You couldn't pay me to fish in Europe, you all been p-ing in your streams since the birth of Christ.

Our piss must be quite amazing then! 2009 research by Yale and Columbia
universities show that at the time 14 cleanest countries in the top 20 were European. :yeah:

(US was 39th, your piss sucks! Boo!!)

[mookiemookie]

Our piss must be quite amazing then! 2009 research by Yale and Columbia
universities show that at the time 14 countries in the top 20 were European. :yeah:

(US was 39th, your piss sucks! Boo!!)

Your piss must be pretty amazing. From what I hear, Finland has lots of lakes and rivers so clean that you can drink the water from them without having to purify it first.

[Subnuts]

I don't trust air I can't see.

[Tribesman]

Stealhead, read what was written and what it was in response to as you appear to have missed it entirely.
As to what you have written take the opening story and see where lay persons as well as industry insiders come into play in that story about fracking.



Onto the opening poster
and how about Africa, those folks are so poor, the only industry they got is charcoal that means cutting down trees and burning them
wow.:doh:
Hey don't forget camel dung, the only other industry in Africa.
What you never heard of Easter island, that ties in fittingly
I take it you read an article on prison planet where Alex Jones had read a review of Diamonds book:hmmm:

[Morts]

You couldn't pay me to fish in Europe, you all been p-ing in your streams since the birth of Christ.
Brainwashed much ?

[yubba]

Another one gone bye bye Mr. Lu gar Indiana Rino tea party rules

[Oberon]

You couldn't pay me to fish in Europe, you all been p-ing in your streams since the birth of Christ.

And I suppose the Native Americans just crossed their legs...

[Ducimus]

A couple of people here are so extreme in view it is so hard to believe their serious. But i'm pretty sure they are serious.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=132&pictureid=802
Uggh, where has rational thought, common sense and sanity gone?