Saved by shallow water

[MarkCt]

Patrolling in the Formossa Straight, I came upon a TF of a BB, a couple cruisers and about 5 destroyers. After getting a hit on the BB and sinking two destroyers with "cuties" I got hit with a string of DC's. One compartment was flooded and one was partial. I had 58% hull damage with bulkhead damage, fuel leak and injured crew. With the flooding I started to slowly sink. Depth was just under 300 so I decided to just sit on the bottom and go quiet to make repairs. It took awhile but the destroyers finally gave up and all repairs were made which allowed me to return to base with 4 KIA's.

So it just goes to show that sometimes shallow water can be your best friend.

[Soviet Creeper]

Something similar happened to me.

I was moving away from a TF that I just sunk a kongo BB from, when I encounterd a random DD and heavy crusier, separate from the TF. The DD was able to land a really luck round in the aft part of my sub as I was trying to dive, so I had 2 compartments flooding. the aft torpedo room was slightly flooded, but my engine room filled up so fast I started dropping like a rock.
I was able to balance out at 300ft, and bring her up to 250. Sadly I had to make so much noise that the DD had an idea where I was. I looked on the map and saw shallows about 20nm NE of my present location. I began trying to get over there while the DD made many innacurate depth charging attacks. When I made it there my sub was more or less tilted like this: / . So I shut the engines off and let here rest on the more or less hill at 300ft, and after a hour the DD moved off.

After all that I surfaced and licked my wounds, and lazily moved off to manilla, that thankfully wasnt taken yet.

[Daniel Prates]

I think we all have tried to rest on the ocean's bottom every now and then, as the game easily allows it, but I have my doubts if in RL anyone tried that unless they had no other choice (like, really, no other choice, as they were helplessly sinking).

[Armistead]

Only problem is if you scrub bottom in the game you will eventually take damage, but Traveller just released a mod that fixes that. Regardless, shallow water beats heading for the deep anytime, I've done it several times, course with mods like TMO you sit there, you'll die, so you keep moving scrubbing bottom

[Hinrich Schwab]

I think we all have tried to rest on the ocean's bottom every now and then, as the game easily allows it, but I have my doubts if in RL anyone tried that unless they had no other choice (like, really, no other choice, as they were helplessly sinking).

It happened to the USS Drum, I believe. It bottomed out during a particularly nasty depth charging by an IJN destroyer. It lasted well over 17 hours. I am double-checking the logs to see if it was the Drum. I want to be absolutely sure. :)

[Hinrich Schwab]

Patrolling in the Formossa Straight, I came upon a TF of a BB, a couple cruisers and about 5 destroyers. After getting a hit on the BB and sinking two destroyers with "cuties" I got hit with a string of DC's. One compartment was flooded and one was partial. I had 58% hull damage with bulkhead damage, fuel leak and injured crew. With the flooding I started to slowly sink. Depth was just under 300 so I decided to just sit on the bottom and go quiet to make repairs. It took awhile but the destroyers finally gave up and all repairs were made which allowed me to return to base with 4 KIA's.

So it just goes to show that sometimes shallow water can be your best friend.

First thing first, you were lucky. Bottoming out with heavy damage is almost a death sentence. Given the amount of hull damage you had and how deep you were, I am almost willing to wager that you were in a Balao Class boat. If not, you had to be running one of the megamods that has the damage mod in it that ignores the hull integrity rule.

Second, you were almost certainly below the thermal layer. Even with all the repair work going on, it was unlikely that the destroyers would hear you. This is especially the case when one considers the huge variance in proficiency amongst IJN destroyer crews and the less than spectacular detection gear they had.

Now for the real question: did the BB sink or did it limp away?

If the BB succumbed, it would have been worth the misery you endured. However, if it limped away, four crewmen and a half-sunk boat are a poor trade for two scrabbly destroyers. The game doesn't take the full IJN order of battle into account so sinking the "redshirt" destroyers is meaningless tonnage. There will be more.

[donna52522]

It may have happened to the Drum, I know it happened to the USS Tambor..

But what happened to MarkCT was not intentional, I have also been saved by the seabed...If it wasn't for shallow water I would surly have been sunk. It happens when your basically 'sunk', but saved from crush depth by the bottom and given time to make repairs...." A shovel full of sand, the merciful Gods left us a shovel full of sand".

I was put down in the Java sea after sinking a CV and damaging another, after being 'sunk' and sitting on the bottom, 3 of the 4 escorts dropped charges on me for hours causing more and more damage. After awhile they started making dry runs, must have spent their charges.

I was only at about 175ft but still alive, I don't remember the hull damage now but it was serious. I couldn't move as the electric motors were under repair, oxygen was low, batteries damaged, engines damaged, only one torpedo tube left in working order (maybe). I don't remember how many compartments were flooding or partially flooded. I don't remember how many KIA's but I know the gun crew was gone, the watch crew was gone and many more throughout the boat.

After I don't know how many game hours, which took forever as being on the bottom I could only time compress up to x4, I had enough repairs to move and couldn't wait for the escorts to just leave, CO2 was past dangerous. The Sun was rising and the escorts were making dry passes so I decided to start creeping, maybe take a shot with the one tube, if it worked.

Luckily as I started moving the escorts pulled away, it's almost as if they realized since they couldn't touch me and I can move, the hunters became the hunted...They left and I was able to surface and speed back to Fremantle. Well actually with the fuel leaks I was lucky to get to Exmouth then back to Fremantle. The repair specialist saved the boat.

This was back when playing TMO 2.0, it was early war and I was in a Sargo.

[Armistead]

First thing first, you were lucky. Bottoming out with heavy damage is almost a death sentence. Given the amount of hull damage you had and how deep you were, I am almost willing to wager that you were in a Balao Class boat. If not, you had to be running one of the megamods that has the damage mod in it that ignores the hull integrity rule.

Second, you were almost certainly below the thermal layer. Even with all the repair work going on, it was unlikely that the destroyers would hear you. This is especially the case when one considers the huge variance in proficiency amongst IJN destroyer crews and the less than spectacular detection gear they had.

Now for the real question: did the BB sink or did it limp away?

If the BB succumbed, it would have been worth the misery you endured. However, if it limped away, four crewmen and a half-sunk boat are a poor trade for two scrabbly destroyers. The game doesn't take the full IJN order of battle into account so sinking the "redshirt" destroyers is meaningless tonnage. There will be more.

He was flooding and sounded like the boat was heading for the bottom, very lucky to be in shallow water where he could bottom out, you can take damage sitting on the floor given enough time, but mods that fix that, but it can buy you time, whereas heading for the deep in a minute passed crush depth...your dead. Course, they're many tactics to control an out of control dive, but if I can't and can get to shallow water, that's a much better option than heading for the deep and sure depth. I have controlled out of controlled dives with 3 flooded compartments and severe hull damage. You do take a chance since sitting on the floor causes damage, just a few more damage points may be enough to do your hull in, your crush depth is highly effected by damage.

Course with TMO if waters are calm, sitting dead stopped is usually sure death as they tend to dump on you, but sometime it's the only option to have a chance to live.

The chance at a BB was certainly worth it and not sure why you think DD's aren't good kills, you get good points and the tonnage.

I would agree if possible I would've tracked the group and maybe waited for better conditions, rougher water, etc... Also correct evading comes into play. My guess he lived because he was probably playing stock, as cuties don't sink crap with the supermods, but overall this was an attack any skipper would've tried to make...you can't know if you will sink something or not, but if you have a good chance, you better not pass it up.

[Bubblehead1980]

USS Seahorse was badly damaged and bottomed on her final combat patrol in 1945.Just FYI, cool mod by traveller allows you to bottom out now without taking damage as should be able to.

[Hinrich Schwab]

It may have happened to the Drum, I know it happened to the USS Tambor..



Just checked it. You are right. It was the Tambor. :up:

I dunno why I kept thinking it was the Drum. Too many names in my head, I guess.

http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2009-12/cornered-bottom-east-china-sea

[Sailor Steve]

S-38 sat on the bottom three separate times while under attack in Lingayen gulf in December 1941.
http://www.historycentral.com/navy/Submarine/s38.html

[Hinrich Schwab]

Just FYI, cool mod by traveller allows you to bottom out now without taking damage as should be able to.

I never knew of the mod. I have never had to bottom, but I may have to add that to my mod collection, assuming no compatibility issues with RFB.

[Char]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1614076#post1614076

Pretty much how I survived that encounter,man it was a close one!

[MarkCt]

I am playing TMO and RSRDC. The water was slightly choppy. Unfortunately the BB was hit twice but kept going making pretty good speed but was listing. That's probably why the destroyers didn't stay around for too long.

I always keep two cuties in my stern tubes and two spare. I know some captains don't like them but they saved me more then once. When you have two or three DD's on you and you get that one that stops and listens only to get hit by one of them then thats one less you have to deal with.

This is the first time that I used this tactic. Like many others I try not to spend much time in areas where the waters not deep. This is also the first time being in shallow water that I came upon a TF.

I think one of the reasons why this worked was that I just shut down and slowly drifted down to the bottom instead of driving down into it.

[Armistead]

I am playing TMO and RSRDC. The water was slightly choppy. Unfortunately the BB was hit twice but kept going making pretty good speed but was listing. That's probably why the destroyers didn't stay around for too long.

I always keep two cuties in my stern tubes and two spare. I know some captains don't like them but they saved me more then once. When you have two or three DD's on you and you get that one that stops and listens only to get hit by one of them then thats one less you have to deal with.

This is the first time that I used this tactic. Like many others I try not to spend much time in areas where the waters not deep. This is also the first time being in shallow water that I came upon a TF.

I think one of the reasons why this worked was that I just shut down and slowly drifted down to the bottom instead of driving down into it.

You did the right thing overall, I may have tracked if my speed was greater for deeper water, but you can't let a BB pass by.

With stock the cuties are overpowered, I've never sunk a DD with one playing TMO

[MarkCt]

Even if you hit one and he doesn't sink you still take him out of the game.

I have been carrying 4 electric torpedoes in the bow tubes and will try a "down the throat" shot if I get a DD charging down on me. Like the cuties, I look at it as a defensive weapon as much as an offensive weapon. They usually don't see it coming.

[Hylander_1314]

Even if you hit one and he doesn't sink you still take him out of the game.

I have been carrying 4 electric torpedoes in the bow tubes and will try a "down the throat" shot if I get a DD charging down on me. Like the cuties, I look at it as a defensive weapon as much as an offensive weapon. They usually don't see it coming.

Takes a little perfecting for your own style of doing it, but it is very rewarding when done! Also the suspense is exhillerating!

Once you get used to it, you can even use the late war Mk VIIIs and since you're so close to DD when firing them, you can even get away with using the magnetic detonators especially if it isn't very rough seas during the attack.

The tough part, is knowing when to swerve while playing chicken with fast dds. I usually go to flank speed, and dive for real deep waters, and swerve just as the dd comes overhead incase the torpedo misses. Usually though, you're lauching them from 1000 yards so they don't have time to react.

[MarkCt]

The electric torpedo is rated for 4000 yards so I usually wait till about 3000 yards, fire and dive. No matter what I do, they always seem to detect me unless the water is rough.

[Hylander_1314]

But to ensure a hit, you gotta get close. Trouble is, the electric fish are too slow. I use the standard Mark VIIIs after the '43 improvements of depth keeping and detonator issues.

I usuall set the torpedo depth to just slightly under the rated keel depth the ID Book gives. Wait until the last second to fire, and let 'em have it.

Take her deep at flank speed, and wait for the hit, and then kick 15 degrees rudder left or right whatever you prefer, so you don't bleed off too much speed, and once clear, go to silent running if there are other dds in the area.

But playing "chicken" with DDs can be nerve-wracking too! Especially if the detonator is faulty.

[MarkCt]

What would be the minimum distance to shoot? Whenever I wait too long to shoot, like under 1000 yards or so, it always seem like my torpedoes pass underneath without detonating. That's why I shoot at 3000. that way I have a second chance to shoot again or turn and fire a cutie before diving.

[Armistead]

What would be the minimum distance to shoot? Whenever I wait too long to shoot, like under 1000 yards or so, it always seem like my torpedoes pass underneath without detonating. That's why I shoot at 3000. that way I have a second chance to shoot again or turn and fire a cutie before diving.

That shouldn't be a problem, I make many shots in the 600-1000 yard range, just early war I set them 10ft above keel depth...somethings not making sense here.

Main thing is to stay narrow towards the nearest DD, if you stay broadsides to one, your gonna get found out if within a few thousand yards.

[bill clarke]

Great thread.

Can the escorts pick you up on the bottom ?, and could they historically ?

I'm in the early part of the war Dec 41, I've got MK 14's but I notice that there are Steam torps available too., any advantage using them ?

And when do the "cuties" become available ? and where is Travellers mod ?, had a look for it but no luck.

[Krauter]

Wasn't sitting on the bottom bad for submarines, since the drains to their ballast tanks were on the bottom of the hull, and could thus get clogged with mud and debris? Or was that only for modern submarines?

[MarkCt]

Given a choice, I wouldn't sit on the bottom. In my case I had to because I had heavy flooding plus the Formossa Stright is shallow enough in spots to avoid crush depth. I would rather keep moving that way I have some type of control. The last thing you want is to get caught on the bottom and a DD drops a string of 12 depth charges on you and you have no where to go.

I told you there are some that don't like using cuties. In my four rear tubes I always keep two. When they become available try a couple.

[TorpX]

Great thread.

Can the escorts pick you up on the bottom ?, and could they historically ?
They can and they could.
I'm in the early part of the war Dec 41, I've got MK 14's but I notice that there are Steam torps available too., any advantage using them ?
Mk 14's are steam torpedos. They were really the standard in most navies. The electric were a kind of infatuation; the advantage being that they were "trackless". The problem is that they were also slow, and often less reliable.



I should add the "steam" term comes from the fact that they worked by having fuel, air and water injected into a combustion chamber and the process created carbon dioxide, steam and nitrogen (left over from the air). The steam would condense, but the nitrogen would create bubbles, and leave a track.

[commandosolo2009]

Patrolling in the Formossa Straight, I came upon a TF of a BB, a couple cruisers and about 5 destroyers. After getting a hit on the BB and sinking two destroyers with "cuties" I got hit with a string of DC's. One compartment was flooded and one was partial. I had 58% hull damage with bulkhead damage, fuel leak and injured crew. With the flooding I started to slowly sink. Depth was just under 300 so I decided to just sit on the bottom and go quiet to make repairs. It took awhile but the destroyers finally gave up and all repairs were made which allowed me to return to base with 4 KIA's.

So it just goes to show that sometimes shallow water can be your best friend.

That happened to me before, during a port raid in Rabaul. Only the Akizuki on the very shallows kept charging me, so I bottomed her, with repairs in motion, and tubes loading... there was that pocket of deep between the chains were I completed repairs and PD'd to sink the bastard.

[Sailor Steve]

Wasn't sitting on the bottom bad for submarines, since the drains to their ballast tanks were on the bottom of the hull, and could thus get clogged with mud and debris? Or was that only for modern submarines?
Apparently not, because they did it many times. Or maybe they took the risk because it was the only choice at the time. I don't know anything about modern subs.

[Daniel Prates]

Apparently not, because they did it many times. Or maybe they took the risk because it was the only choice at the time. I don't know anything about modern subs.

I should imagine that, due to size and weight, landing a Los Angeles sub in the bottom of the ocean is close to an impossible thing. Fleetboats, being much smaller, are another matter.

[TorpX]

I should imagine that, due to size and weight, landing a Los Angeles sub in the bottom of the ocean is close to an impossible thing. Fleetboats, being much smaller, are another matter.
I don't know that much about modern subs, but I doubt there would be a temptation for them to resort to such tactics. They are much faster, the batteries don't run down, they have more effective weapons, so why would they allow themselves to be caught in shallow water?





The case I read, where a US sub bottomed out and thereby evaded destruction, occured after they had already sustained damage, and were leaking oil. They realized the oil was seeping up and the DD's could see it. The critical detail that saved them was that the currents were carrying the oil away, so the enemy ships dropped DC's on the wrong spot. The Captain wisely ordered flood negative and waited quietly, until the enemy went away.


Ordinarily, the enemy ships could still ping you and locate you, even if your not making noise, and if you aren't moving, you would be easier to hit.

[Sailor Steve]

Ordinarily, the enemy ships could still ping you and locate you, even if your not making noise, and if you aren't moving, you would be easier to hit.

Not necessarily. First, the bottom is rarely smooth, and irregularities cause sonar to reflect in random directions, helping to hide the sub. Second, the sand helps to absorb the force of the blast. I'm not saying it's perfect, as one close hit can end it all, and we have no record of the subs it didn't work for, but it was done and sometimes done very well. Re-read my links about S-38.

[MarkCt]

Could sonar tell the difference between a sub on the bottom and a coral reef?

[PacificWolf]

Could sonar tell the difference between a sub on the bottom and a coral reef?

I believe not! I tried this by myself and I almost die! Im talking about vanilla TMO and RFB.

[les green01]

in the book blind man bluff one of the us subs i think it was the sea wolf was doing a cable tap in one of the russian seas in the early 80's and had divers out when a storm hit and to save the drivers the capt order her it to bottom and mud and muck was so bad in the boat that they almost didnt raise back up and was afraid the muck and stuff was going to shut the reactors down dont have the book with me right now

[Sailor Steve]

Dynamix put that very thing into Aces Of The Deep. Bottoming the boat would sometimes save you, but you could also get stuck. I once lost a career because I couldn't break free and the crew suffocated.

[MarkCt]

Wow that's got to suck. All that sweat and effort into a career only to have it end my mud. It's not even a "glorious" death where you go out fighting.

[Daniel Prates]

I don't know that much about modern subs, but I doubt there would be a temptation for them to resort to such tactics. They are much faster, the batteries don't run down, they have more effective weapons, so why would they allow themselves to be caught in shallow water?



That is not the point, I too can't think of any reason why a contemporary sub skipper would even dream about doing so. I was just pointing out, since someone else asked, that IMO it is not possible to land a large modern sub in the bottom.

[Echo76]

A bit OT but I read a little story about a finnish sub that ran aground while evading russian patrol boats because they had too much ballast. When they released some of the ballast, the surfacing gases and oil made the hunters to believe that the sub had sunk.

Shortly after, the sub ran aground again into an underwater elevation in the bottom and damaged its diving planes. By that time the crew was falling unconscious and became delirious because of the co2 rising too high, like the cook falling with a coffee mug in his hand and when the chief of the watch was told to start the pumps to get the boat on surface, the chief instead started to explain the operating principles of the pump.

Must have been a miracle to get the sub up again but they made it. And got hunted again :D

[TorpX]

Not necessarily. First, the bottom is rarely smooth, and irregularities cause sonar to reflect in random directions, helping to hide the sub. Second, the sand helps to absorb the force of the blast. I'm not saying it's perfect, as one close hit can end it all, and we have no record of the subs it didn't work for, but it was done and sometimes done very well. Re-read my links about S-38.

I know of the S-38. I don't dispute that this tactic was done on occasion, but I think it was unusual. The incidents with the S-38 happened early in the war, when IJN ASW tactics were of a lower standard. I think most sub crews disliked (or even dreaded) shallow water encounters with DD's and ASW ships.