sub choice dilema

[pickler]

i started my career in 1941 in st.nazaire with a viic. it is now Oct.1943 and im at penang. i have been very fortunate in my 7 patrols that i have had and managed to sink 170,000grt. this included two cruise liners and and an escort carrier as well as 3 aircrafts. therefore i managed to collwct lots of renown despite the conversion cost to a uflak in june 43. i was recently transfrred to 10 flotilla and im in need of a long range boat at penang. my options are ixb, ixc, ixc/40 and ixd2. i have the renown to get either but im not sure which one. since i will no longer be a uflak i need fast diving time to escape aircraft right? in that case ixb is the fastest of them all but also with least range (similar to viic). ixd2 range allows me to cruise at 13kts to my destination and back so i can squeeze more patrols over time but its heft is dangerous and can be easily picked up by sonar. which one should i choose? survivability is important but so is range. maybe i should request transfer to keep viic uflak so i can survive th war?

i have gwx plus ui/graphical tweaks.

[RConch]

Aircraft are the greatest threat, the diving time makes a big difference to me. Survival is the primary concern.
I go Type VII throughout the war.
But it is your choice on how you approach the game, if you get killed-no big deal. Start a new career.:DL

[Osmium Steele]

This is an age old dilema which has been re-hashed dozens of times on these forums and a final answer has yet to appear.

You've already made the relevant arguments. It really does come down to individual choice.

[Raptor]

You can remove range from the equation by selecting Unlimited Fuel from the Realism settings. Just pretend you met up with a floating Esso station - a covert German tanker or a generous u-boat.:salute:


If absolute survivability is your primary goal, you take the IXB because the type VII boats are not available with the 10th flotilla, although if you are driving a VII when you transfer, you might get to keep it (but all type VII have a 6,500 nm range at 12 knots. The tanker will have to become your personal tag-along. However, at the cost of 2 extra seconds of diving time, you can get the huge range increase offered by both the IXC and IXC/40.

IXB:
dive time = 35 seconds
range = 8,700 nm at 12 knots

IXC:
dive time = 37 seconds
range = 11,000 nm at 12 knots

IXC/40:
dive time = 37 seconds
range = 11,400 nm at 12 knots

IXD2:
dive time = 42 seconds
range = 23,700 nm at 12 knots

Although crush depths were different historically (and many boats exceeded these and still returned to the surface), the game does not model these; all type IX boats are 165 meters (all type VII are 150 meters). You can alter these by editing the appropriate .cfg files.

Caveat: how many boats exceeded the above crush depths and did not return to the surface is anybody's guess.

[TorpLos]

In all my years of playing sh3.... I never played with the IX series... Just single missions. Wow. Crazy. To me it just doesnt feel right lugging that big load around and attacking shipping where they cant protect themselves.

[bigboywooly]

Always used the IX
Prefer those to the VII
Of course a lumbering giant is no good later in the war but I never get that far so :rotfl2:

[Raptor]

Just tested and proved my theory: I started in April 1943 in the 7th/13th flotilla and got a VIIC. Made a short harbor patrol and exited. Requested transfer to the 10th flotilla, which was granted.

If you are driving a VII when you transfer to the 10th flotilla, you get to keep it.

You will have the option to switch to any type IX once transferred, but you don't have to do so. However, there are no type VII boats available, and if you give up your type VII, you can't get it back in that flotilla.

[Sailor Steve]

Ever since SH1 I've been in the habit of running multiple careers, one from each available flotilla. I keep a record of who is where and when, and run one full patrol before switching to the oldest one again.

For me this is both more and less realistic at the same time. Less, because obviously no one can really be two different people and have different lives, but more because realistically captains didn't ordinarily get to choose what type of boat they would command; they took what they were assigned. Realistically you should roll a die and use the result to choose between the available commands, taking what fate deals you. I can't do that, and I can't bring myself to choose what I know I couldn't really choose, so I take the option to do them all at the same time.

[pickler]

thanks for all the responses. the majority here seem to agree that vii is just a better boat and yes i do keep my viic uflak in 10th flotilla. while the guns are great on this boat and no aircraft managed to sink me so far, i have a major issue:
i completed my first patrol from penang heading to Arabian sea and the swimming up to the Oman sea close to strait of hormuz. thats where i picked up a small convoy of 4 large tankers unescorted!! i dispensed all my torpedos to sink them and then headed home. on the way home i ran into a similar convoy but i could not do much without torpedos.

this is why im considering an ixc40; firepower. but i should also mention that i met lots of lancaster bombers in that patrol. i really like to see 1945 as i have never survived past '43 let alone with 170k tons.

[Raptor]

And you are taking on aircraft deliberately why?:hmmm:

The U-flak concept proved to be almost worthless in real life. The gain just wasn't worth the pain. The tactical value of the few aircraft shot down was dwarfed by the loss of life amongst the gunners and damage to the boats sustained during "the great turkey shoot". There's a reason Donitz scrapped the project and returned the 4 flak boats to their regular configurations.:down:

I've never tested it, but the drag of the increasingly larger turms (towers) with their extra weaponry had a serious negative effect on both diving times and underwater maximum speed of the boats.

Does anyone know if either SH3 or GWX models that effect?

[pickler]

im not sure but the upgrade feom viib to viic was a penalty in performance both dive times and underwater speed. did not notice much with coning tower 4 upgrade. i have shot down every aircraft that i took onwith uflak and taken 20-30% hull damage eah time. but the manuverabilty is great and bombs always fall just short. once aircraft is picked up i align my course 90' prependicular to aircraft path at ahead flank. once the aircraft dives i go hard turn towards aircraft. this is of course for the bigger aircrafts like lancaster. i crash dive when smaller aircraft like hurricane arrive as they are too small and fast to hit. im thinking the best way to solve this problem is to avoid it...save my renown and get the type xxi at Bergen in less than a year. 1944 is coming and my slow viic is not ready for the hedgcog under water.

[Raptor]

According to the .cfg files, the C series (C, C/41, and C/42) is 3 seconds faster diving but its underwater range at 4 knots in 10 nm less than that of the B.

VIIB:
dive time 30 seconds
underwater range = 90 nm at 4 knots

VIIC, C/41, and C/42:
dive time = 27 seconds:yeah:
underwater range = 80 nm at 4 knots


All VII varieties have the same 150 meter crush depth vs. 165 meters for the type IX varieties.

[pickler]

viib was definitely more hydrodynamic. i could do 3kts silent running while 2kt in viic. div times for my viic is about 33s last i timed it from alarm call to complete submergence of sub. i do not know about viic41/42, i never used them.

[Raptor]

SH3 includes the VIIC/41 and VIIC/42 boats, although the C/42 variant was never completed.

If you elect one of these, you might want to change the appropriate .cfg file to more accurately reflect the true crush depths of these two very deep diving variants. The SH3 default is 150 meters for all type VIIs - totally unrealistic.

The VIIC/41 added 2.5 mm to the thickness of the pressure hull, allowing it to dive to 250 - 300 meters.:yeah:

The VIIC/42 used armor plate for the pressure hull instead of standard steel, and was designed to allow it to reach 500 meters.:rock:

No depth charge could go as deep as these variants could dive, so they were vulnerable only to Hedgehogs and the inherent risks of the depths.

I suspect that Hedgehogs would implode before 500 meters, but I don't know that for sure. Either way, it's a moot point since the C/42 never got built.

There was even a design VIIC/43 with 6 forward torpedo tubes, but that's another story.:woot:

[pickler]

SH3 includes the VIIC/41 and VIIC/42 boats, although the C/42 variant was never completed.

If you elect one of these, you might want to change the appropriate .cfg file to more accurately reflect the true crush depths of these two very deep diving variants. The SH3 default is 150 meters for all type VIIs - totally unrealistic.

The VIIC/41 added 2.5 mm to the thickness of the pressure hull, allowing it to dive to 250 - 300 meters.:yeah:

The VIIC/42 used armor plate for the pressure hull instead of standard steel, and was designed to allow it to reach 500 meters.:rock:

No depth charge could go as deep as these variants could dive, so they were vulnerable only to Hedgehogs and the inherent risks of the depths.

I suspect that Hedgehogs would implode before 500 meters, but I don't know that for sure. Either way, it's a moot point since the C/42 never got built.

There was even a design VIIC/43 with 6 forward torpedo tubes, but that's another story.:woot:

arent I better off with xxi? 500m? is that really realistic? i cant find the 7c42 in submarine folder. the 7c41 was set to 300m max already.

[Tinman764]

I don't care what the books say - my trusty (rusty) VIIb can take 250 metres. I would try deeper, but the smell of brown fear from my crew starts to get overpowering.

[Raptor]

In SH3, it becomes available in January of 1944, but you are correct, there is no .cfg file for it.


Irregardless of which version of VIIC you select in port (C, C/41. or C/42), the only thing on the u-boat that changes on the screen is its U-number; the "TypeVIIC" never changes. Note that there is a different amount of renown charged for each version.

As I recall, there is a mod that gives you an über-type VIIC/41.


This screen shot below is from the 11th flotilla in May 1944. Other flotillas that used type VII's show the same thing. Interestingly enough, the U-Flak turm 4 is available to go on it. Another example of how the programmers failed to do their research sufficiently.


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b185/Raptoru766/SH3VIIC42.jpg

[pickler]

viic/42 uflak? this has further complicated my dilema. not that its important now since i got killed by 3 destroyer hunters depth charging me. 1944 is a totally awsome but i cant believe the depth charges still hit me going ahead flank hard stb at 200m. even still i managed to hit one of the destroyers with 7es blindly launched at 50m while diving!! quite a career with 18 patrols! i started this career last year...need to start a new career but where and when and with what haha!

[Raptor]

Oh yes. Build a super U-Flak:up:

You can outfit it with three twin-barreled 3.7 cm flak guns if you want, or any other combination of 4x20mm, 1x3.7cm, or 2x3.7cm

Utterly unrealistic, but possible in SH3. Imagine you're the pilot diving down on a u-boat, lining up your bomb load, and getting met by 6 37mm AA guns. A single hit will ruin your day. Alternatively, you could face 12 20mm AA guns. Either way, that's a lot of lead in the sky. Try flying though that ! :o

[Olamagato]

All VII varieties have the same 150 meter crush depth vs. 165 meters for the type IX varieties.
This is not "crush depth". This is maximum operational depth = pure bureaucracy. Crush depth is not to survive because hard to live after crushing at a depth of... 300-350 m. :)

[Olamagato]

In SH3, it becomes available in January of 1944, but you are correct, there is no .cfg file for it.
You are wrong. VIIC/41 and VIIC/42 exist in GWX and you can get these boats. But in SH3 is bug - upgrade screen show wrong descriptions. If you select VIIC/41 or VIIC/42, start patrol and return, then you will see an appropriate description for the currently selected by their U-boat. However, re-select the description VIIC (without model degrade) will make the descriptions of the newer versions will come back again to the oldest version of the VIIC.

Note that there is a different amount of renown charged for each version.
Because the game correctly selects the ship, only bad shows.

You can also install "GWX - VIIC41 Player Sub" for see properly VIIC/41 model but you can't activate "water streams mod" (also combimod) nor "blank campaign" because there is not type VIIC water streams compatible to GWX 3.0 (last compatibility for GWX 2.0).

[pickler]

Oh yes. Build a super U-Flak:up:

You can outfit it with three twin-barreled 3.7 cm flak guns if you want, or any other combination of 4x20mm, 1x3.7cm, or 2x3.7cm

Utterly unrealistic, but possible in SH3. Imagine you're the pilot diving down on a u-boat, lining up your bomb load, and getting met by 6 37mm AA guns. A single hit will ruin your day. Alternatively, you could face 12 20mm AA guns. Either way, that's a lot of lead in the sky. Try flying though that ! :o

hey i tried that just for fun (testing) purposes. i had 3x 3.7cmx2 mk42 guns...but the guns just cant hit a damn plane!? they act very much like radar guns exploding near the aircraft but never actually damaging it. the original 3x 2cmx4 gun are much deadlier...i often hit sunderlands before they get in bombing range. however if i do this they mostly crash right into me and destroy my boat lol! another problem i tried the xxi in may 1944 but the snorkel radar bug exists (since fumb37 is not available until 1945) so my boat is very vulnerable while snorkeling. A much serious bug is the tremendous damage aircraft machine guns do at huge ranges (800m+). this unrealistic damage results in not being able to dive deep even at 90-99% hull integrity. from what i have read in aircraft war books and seen in sim games, light caliber guns like the cal.50, .303 were accurate at max range of 350m at speeds of around 150kts. it was impossible to hit a small uboat or tank while flying at high speeds, and they usually dove or performed popup attacks to put as many bullets as possible. this usually brought them to 50-100m distance from the boat/tank.

[pickler]

now that wer going offtopic here is a cool vid lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOXrfBZoLE