Silent Hunter Online

[drEaPer]

http://www.silenthunteronline.com/

[Ducimus]

You have got to be kidding me. If it uses SH5 as a base, it may as well be sent to a leper colony now.

[Penguin]

ay caramba! :o
Just read the news on pcgames, there are also 2 screenshots to be found:
http://www.pcgames.de/Silent-Hunter-Online-PC-239740/News/Silent-Hunter-Online-Free-2-Play-Browsergame-mit-3D-Grafik-angekuendigt-880084/

Looks like they recycled the Sh5 code for a browser based game. I guess we can say goodbye to the simulation aspect, not even mentioning modding...:-?

I can't get into Ubi's heads: The people hated the online requirement of SH5, so what do they do? - Yeah, let's turn it into an online game! :damn:

[Arclight]

Yeah, that's... wait what?! :doh:

Where the bleeming heck did that come from?

[0rpheus]

Well, people did ask about SH6.... :o

Seriously though, you couldn't make it up. Ubi couldn't be more ignorant of the series' heritage if it tried. :damn:

[mookiemookie]

But if Ubi makes this an online browser based game, then how will they rely on modders to fix it like they always do? :rotfl2:

[TheDarkWraith]

We all should post comments on their facebook page stating:
- instead of fixing SH5 you did this?
- what an insult to the Silent Hunter series
- Why don't you fix what you broke (SH5) before creating another disaster
- Don't you have enough kiddies playing your games? You want more?
- How do I play when my internet is down?
- How long do we have to wait before the first patch comes out?
- Are there plans to finish the game or leave it in an unfinished state?
- Does the DRM restrict it to IE only?
- Is there an offline mode so we can play it on our tablet PCs?


Seriously, we should bombard their facebook page with negative comments :yep:


What a complete insult to the series...

[0rpheus]

We all should post comments on their facebook page stating:
- instead of fixing SH5 you did this?
- what an insult to the Silent Hunter series
- Why don't you fix what you broke (SH5) before creating another disaster
- Don't you have enough kiddies playing your games? You want more?
- How do I play when my internet is down?
- How long do we have to wait before the first patch comes out?
- Are there plans to finish the game or leave it in an unfinished state?
- Does the DRM restrict it to IE only?
- Is there an offline mode so we can play it on our tablet PCs?


Seriously, we should bombard their facebook page with negative comments :yep:


What a complete insult to the series...

I was thinking something similar for the Ubi forums, but I'm pretty sure I'm not registered:shifty:

[Seeadler]

The game is developed by BlueByte (German Ubisoft studio), the creators of the Anno and Settlers series. They also created "Settlers Online" in the past.

[Penguin]

An additional question to Dark Wraith's catalogue:

- Do we have to pay to ride in a Type VIIB, do we have to pay to receive electric eels? Can we buy awesome cool Captain's hats?

The game is developed by BlueByte (German Ubisoft studio), the creators of the Anno and Settlers series. They also created "Settlers Online" in the past.

As Settlers 7 was relased shortly after SH5, and also required a permanent connection, we can regard SH5 as a test balloon. To test the servers, to see if smaller community swallows the DRM, then extend it to the big series. As they didn't remove it yet for the Settlers, even after 2 years, even made a Settlers online last year (For the non-German gamers: both parts were and are a great success in Germany), I can see how Ubi's suits tick.
Having checked out Settlers Online and quitting after 5 minutes after I felt my brain melt because of "casualisation", nothing good can be expected from SH online...

[Jimbuna]

You have got to be kidding me. If it uses SH5 as a base, it may as well be sent to a leper colony now.

My beta key began IOU....yeah bloody right!! :DL

[kiwi_2005]

Wow! An online browser FTP SH game! About time but will it work, remember Wolves at War for SH3 that was cool even if we only used the internet to post our patrols and get orders. Good fun.

[Julhelm]

Actually the screenshots look pretty cool. It doesn't look like an arcade game. I just hope it won't be an XP grind.

[Hinrich Schwab]

I just hope it won't be an XP grind.

Considering the current pattern of MMORPGS, yes, it will be a grindfest. Not only that, it is schmuck bait for a classic MMO money trap. The pics show the Type IIA. I was never a fan of the Type II, but the IIA particularly sucks. I can see it now. Want a Type IIB, IIC or IID? Pay 5, 10 or 15 bucks respectively. Want a Type VII? Grind a zillion XP for a promotion and get a Type VIIA with just enough to get you sunk.:nope:

Want your boat to have its historical true crush depth? Pay or grind.

Want a KDB Hydrophone? Pay 30 bucks or grind another zillion xp just to eliminate the fatal forward baffle. :nope:

Want BOLD canisters or Anechoic coatings? Pay or grind. :nope:

Want a radar detector? Pay or grind for anything except METOX because METOX will get you killed. :nope::nope:

Bernard is available for your crew for free!!!!!:D:D:D:damn:

Just got sunk? No problem! You respawn at your home port with a minor penalty.:o:nope::damn::damn: (So much for realism)

I am convinced that this is just a money maker for Ubi. I know one Kaleun who won't show up for this party.

EDIT: Just for added snark, I would want to show up as a Tribal, Fletcher or Sumner Class destroyer to show all of the "gamers" Ubi is trying to attract with this silliness how badly they are doing it wrong with the game.

[Harcor]

here is the link

http://de.silenthunteronline.com/


(http://forum.de.silenthunteronline.com/members/416894-BB_Langustor)

Willkommen an Bord, Kaleuns.

Dies ist das offizielle Forum zu Silent Hunter Online, einem kostenlosen Simulations- und Strategiespiel aus der renommierten Silent Hunter-Reihe.

Hier werden wir euch mit aktuellen Informationen und Neuigkeiten zur Entwicklung des Spiels versorgen.

Wenn ihr es noch nicht getan habt, solltet ihr euch auf unserer Website (http://www.silenthunteronline.com) unbedingt jetzt für die Closed Beta bewerben, um als Closed Beta-Tester noch vor dem offiziellen Start Zugang zum Spiel erhalten.

Hier einige Infos zum Spiel, damit ihr euch schon vor dem Start ein Bild von dem machen könnt, was euch erwartet:

http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/emea/gamesites/silenthunteronline/screens/de/Combat1_de.jpg

Silent Hunter Online bietet euch Echtzeit-Kämpfe direkt in eurem Browser ***8211; und zwar dank Flash 11-Technologie mit detaillierten Schiffsmodellen. Beobachtet detailliert nachgebaute Feindschiffe in eurem Periskop, plant präzise euren Angriff, bringt euch ungesehen in Stellung und schlagt aus dem Hinterhalt zu.

http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/emea/gamesites/silenthunteronline/screens/de/SHO_Strategic-Map_de.jpg

Die Silent Hunter-Reihe war schon immer für ihre Authentizität bekannt. Auch bei Silent Hunter Online wird Wert auf echte, historische Bootstypen gelegt, die der Spieler kommandieren (oder auch versenken) kann.

U-Boote sind gleichermaßen Jäger und Gejagte. Um gegen die feindliche Überlegenheit anzukommen, könnt ihr euch online mit anderen Spielern zu Wolfrudeln zusammenschließen. Gemeinsam könnt ihr dann taktieren, eure Strategie koordinieren und natürlich auch feindliche Konvoys attackieren. Alle Spieler ziehen gemeinsam an einem Strang und gestalten innerhalb einer dynamischen Kampagne durch ihre Entscheidungen aktiv die Spielwelt und den Verlauf des Krieges im Atlantik.

Wir hoffen, dass wir euch damit schon etwas neugierig machen konnten. Wie gesagt werden wir euch regelmäßig mit Updates auf dem Laufenden halten. Besucht dazu am besten auch unsere offizielle Facebook-Seite (http://www.facebook.com/silenthunteronline). Wir freuen uns, dort eure Comments zu lesen.

[Julhelm]

Yeah, this is one genre that doesn't need an XP grind. It's funny, the very first and most successfull MMO sims (e.g Aces High, Warbirds) always let you pick and choose whatever you wanted to without unlocks or contrived "design" elements like that. I hate how every game HAS to have levels and unlocks just because Modern Warfare made a billion dollars and popularized that ****.

[Sartoris]

Oh god why. This looks terrible.

[DrJones]

What the hell...i don't believe it...they spend time and money for an online game and they are not able to finish the game SH5...i can't believe it....:stare::stare::stare::stare::stare::stare::s tare::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::Kaleun_M ad::mad::eek:

[DrJones]

the new project from ubisoft makes me sick....not able to finish and patch sh5 but spending time and money for an online game....:nope:

[TheDarkWraith]

makes me sick also :nope: You can tell that Ubi is all about the $$$. They could give a rats you-know-what about anything else :shifty:

What makes me ever sicker is this is how all of corporate America is turning out to be...gotta make the shareholders happy and screw everyone else :nope:

[Trevally.]

:o Online Silent Hunter :hmmm:



Remember this:O:-
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1447/driversanfranubidrmsuckk.jpg

[DrJones]

Just visitit the facebook proile of the silent hunter online threat. Just left an disappointing comment there.....:nope:

[elanaiba]

I would contest the success of Warbirds and Aces High but then again, if they survived as long as they did, works for me :) But you have to remember that in both games you would pay a monthly fee in order to play!

BTW, COD is not the first game to have XP, levels and unlocks. The thing about unlocks is that they actually serves to gradually introduce features to the player without overwhelming him from the start. Would a game work without them? Sure.

I did work on SHO as a consultant for a couple of months before leaving Ubi. It has some potential. Will it replace SH3/4/5? Negative, I don't think it will, its a different game with a sliglty different target. But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.

If it turned out anything like what was on paper when I left, it should have some interesting tricks up its sleeve, things that you've never been able to do in the SH series before.

Its free, may be worth a try, right?

Dan

[Nippelspanner]

http://www.mzzt.net/tf2/crit/light/backstab/red/Ubisoft/blue/SH%20fans.png

[pascal4541]

What the hell...i don't believe it...they spend time and money for an online game and they are not able to finish the game SH5...i can't believe it....:stare::stare::stare::stare::stare::stare::s tare::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::Kaleun_M ad::mad::eek:

:haha:

[drEaPer]

About grinding stuff:

I am killing so much tonnage in SH3 anyway... just because its fun... think about it for a sec: What do submarines do? What is their purpose? They grind tonnage... its actually what they are made for....

One could say grinding in a shooter has more diversity than doing the same stuff over and over again to kill some freighters....

Spot convoy, follow, get in firing position, kill, maybe kill some DDs, or
evade them and all for a value, called tonnage...
now, just for a moment, replace "tonnage" by "highscore".
Whats the difference? Not much...
When you return to base after a patrol, your success is measured in a very unspectaculay way: Just a number.

Since I m grinding anyway, because the process of doing so is fun, where is the problem?

[Herr-Berbunch]

How many threads does this need?

[pascal4541]

:o Online Silent Hunter :hmmm:



Remember this:O:-
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1447/driversanfranubidrmsuckk.jpg

:har:
:yep: Trevally

[Bilge_Rat]

But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.



well UBI would probably have more goodwill around here if they had, at a strict minimum, patched SH5 to remove the most obvious bugs.

I was more than willing to give UBI the benefit of the doubt over SH5, but this looks like the final sellout of the SH franchise.

The only good thing about this is that it makes NWAC look better and better...:ping:

[Julhelm]

I would contest the success of Warbirds and Aces High but then again, if they survived as long as they did, works for me :) But you have to remember that in both games you would pay a monthly fee in order to play!

BTW, COD is not the first game to have XP, levels and unlocks. The thing about unlocks is that they actually serves to gradually introduce features to the player without overwhelming him from the start. Would a game work without them? Sure.

I did work on SHO as a consultant for a couple of months before leaving Ubi. It has some potential. Will it replace SH3/4/5? Negative, I don't think it will, its a different game with a sliglty different target. But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.

If it turned out anything like what was on paper when I left, it should have some interesting tricks up its sleeve, things that you've never been able to do in the SH series before.

Its free, may be worth a try, right?

Dan
We shall see. I'll judge it by it's own merits for sure. I worked on BF3 which had a pretty lame implementation (gotta level up to get flares on your jet) and if it's anything like that my interest will take a crashdive*. I just don't care for that type of grind where you are forced to start off with the lowest-tier equipment.

*It's already diving just because it's WW2 Uboats again. I would much prefer an online game with some Sturgeon-on-Victor III action.

[Sartoris]

I suggest we unload all our rage on their Facebook page. Let them know what we think about this...:down:

EDIT: I left my comments, wonder how long it'll take them to delete them.

[volodya61]

Is it Silent Hunter or DarkOrbit from bigpoint? On-line game can't be a sim-game... (IMHO)

[Captain73]

I suggest we unload all our rage on their Facebook page. Let them know what we think about this...:down:

EDIT: I left my comments, wonder how long it'll take them to delete them.


I support You! Bravo!!!!

[Wolfstriked]

Fellas,we all need to eat.:hmmm:Anyway we have great modders that strive for realism in Silent hunter family of games.Maybe this will get people into Subsims and then they convert to more realistic simulations.Most likely it will be very gamey.Must admit when I saw the trailer I thought CRAP thats what I have been wanting all along.:rotfl2:

[NegRepKing]

Good News guys new silent hunter coming. It's called Silent Hunter Online. It's based on Battle of the atlantic with a multiplayer campagin. it contains u-boats as usual :D

[THE_MASK]

makes me sick also :nope: You can tell that Ubi is all about the $$$. They could give a rats you-know-what about anything else :shifty:

What makes me ever sicker is this is how all of corporate America is turning out to be...gotta make the shareholders happy and screw everyone else :nope:It would have been nice to have a few more patches . I have enjoyed doing some mods for this game . I think i have a few more years yet :yeah: Globalisation , stock market , everything i am against :yep:

[ajrimmer42]

Dude there's a thread like right under this one called 'Silent Hunter Online'...

[Drewcifer]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Ubi is so SO stupid. REALLY? Silent Hunter 5 was a flop man... and now Silent Hunter Online? Nobody, NOBODY wants that game I promise you.

We wanted a simulator with all the bells and whistles we wanted a virtual Das Boot. Go back to the drawing board and do not return.

[NegRepKing]

Well i just saw it relax besides im new. :down: thanks for the welcome...

[NegRepKing]

I'd love to see you make a game like that... you cant even make pac man so go back to your cave and hibernate. Besides it's a free to play so you're pretty much asking for too much.

[Drewcifer]

I'd love to see you make a game like that... you cant even make pac man so go back to your cave and hibernate.

Seriously? Have you seen the mod section here? This community has improved every silent hunter game 100 times over from what ubi made. What are you an Ubi troll? Seriously go back to my cave? Completely uncalled for.

[NegRepKing]

Oh you mean the mods that make the game crash constantly?

[Falkirion]

That's just a matter of tinkering with the load orders. Nothing that a dedicated player wont go through to get the game to work.

Congratulations Ubisoft, your stupidity knows no bounds. How about you fix the mess you made of SH5 before you go on to release browser crap like this?

[Drewcifer]

Oh you mean the mods that make the game crash constantly?


You are just a Ubi hype troll. Nothing more, nothing less. You created your account today to post about this game.

The mods work for sh3-4 and 5. So stop.

This is a mature community and one of the best forums I've ever been a part of. We don't go around acting like you are flat out.

You insult anybody that doesn't like Ubi or Silent Hunter and now your slandering the mods which are the ONLY thing that completes any of the half made Silent Hunter games.

[NegRepKing]

Fine i'm sorry really. But I just went so happy when i saw this game being released soon. You guys make silent hunter v games great. But come on please just wait for the game to be released then write a review about it.

[L30P4RD]

:har: Awesome just what we need :haha: I smell an item shop and micro transactions in the air some Pay to Win anybody :yeah:

[minispace]

SHO seems like it's aimed at the casual market, but that's not neccesarily a bad thing, as long as the game is fun. The more people that are introduced to ww2 submarines, even if it's through a browser game, the more interest there will be in realistic simulations in the future. At least that's what I hope.

I'm just glad the series isn't completely dead, like we all thought after SH5 ;)

[OnyxBMW]

Since I m grinding anyway, because the process of doing so is fun, where is the problem?

The bigger issue appears to be a matter of how it's perceived as handled.

When you play SH*, your goal isn't to, for instance, rank up to a new submarine. Not directly, at least. Instead, your goal is to survive and destroy ships, and you happen to get upgrades somewhat coincidentally as time progresses. By comparison, when you have a grind system that uses XP to unlock, it shifts the focus away from sinking ships and surviving to progressing to the next newer, better submarine.

It won't happen to some people who prefer to not notice such details, since they're still playing the same game (operating under an assumption here). But, the majority of a community will most certainly not make the distinction, and it certainly becomes a matter of getting the next newer, better thing, whatever it is.

Using World of Tanks as an example (PVP instead of PVE, mind), even if the gameplay is fun, the purpose for playing often appears to strictly be progression to the next tank in a progressively longer somewhat linear grind. The gameplay is fun, but the end-goal is always the drive, and that is the fundamental disconnect that will happen when you very obviously throw a grind on top of a game that, by nature, can be construed as a grind due to its somewhat repetitive gameplay.

It's not the repetition that's the problem, or the gameplay. It's the focus of why you're doing the gameplay, and it can become overbearing and take over the community as a whole.

Granted, on an individual basis this may not be a problem, and depending on the communities that develop within the game, if you find your niche community this shouldn't be an issue.

But, what really does concern me is the somewhat heavy handed comments about how the game is going to be casualized.

I don't know about everyone here, but I'm fairly certain a number of us all play at different levels of difficulty and desire different forms of "simulation", from competency of the enemy AI, realism of behavior and routes, and so on, to difficulty of placing shots and finding targets and so on and so forth.

I, personally, play SH5 at the 40-50% mark since, for example, I don't like dud torpedoes and can't handle the TDC at all, nor do I have a desire to do so (among other things). But, I know a lot of people here, since I've perused here often, prefer the game moving so close to simulation that it may as well be analogous to real life during WW2 as a captain. I'm more concerned with how Ubi is going to handle the situation, since this is PVE, so that a player like me, who wants the game to be easier and more of a turkey shoot, but doesn't mind handling logistics such as fuel consumption and finding convoys and the like, versus another player like these boards seem to have, who want to handle all that I do but without a free-floating camera, with dud torps, using the TDC manually, and trying to find ships with active sonar intentionally trying to find everything in a given area.

It can be handled Bastion style, where it's a choose your own difficulty for enhanced rewards...or it could be handled as a one size fits all system...but it seems like, depending on how it's structured, this could be incredibly off-putting to a number of people, especially the more hardcore fans of the simulation aspect of the game.

Either way, I'll need to keep an eye on this, but I am not a fan of a browser-based 3D game...at all...

[Hinrich Schwab]

http://www.mzzt.net/tf2/crit/light/backstab/red/Ubisoft/blue/SH%20fans.png


Agreed.:nope:

The gaming industry reminds me so much of the major players back in 1981 and 1982 before the industry crash. Everything was about cashing in on franchises and screwing the gamers to turn a buck.

It looks like the mod community's stock just went up and split since Ubisoft wants its "Call of Duty with Submarines":damn: If the subsim community wants accuracy, it has to provide it on its own. If I want "casual", I can easily pop in SH II, III, 4 or 5 and set up a generated mission just to burn a couple of hours. Same for Destroyer Command if I am in the mood to "Popeye" about in Tin Cans.:D

I don't need any BS Ubisoft online, unrealistic, false-reward-spewing grindfest to get my fix on submarine action. Shells of Fury is more rewarding than the thoughts of a SH MMO concept.:o

[Madox58]

Hell, I'll Beta test it.
I'm only interested in the files anyway.
:D

[Krauter]

So wait, the game that they came up with that's FTP and online, using recycled Sh5 code has Type II subs... but SH5 doesn't.

I don't want to live in this world anymore.

[mookiemookie]

So wait, the game that they came up with that's FTP and online, using recycled Sh5 code has Type II subs... but SH5 doesn't.

I don't want to live in this world anymore.

http://files.sharenator.com/1_I_Dont_Want_to_Live_on_This_Planet_Anymore-s500x282-295658-580.jpg

[wingtip]

I bet they'll finally get true milk cows... cause it will be the only place you can buy upgrades and sell off the worthless junk you bought the mission before...

[AngusJS]

How come that gets a KM grid map, but SH5 didn't?

[dcb]

If they stick to their past record of unplayably buggy releases, they will cover themselves with even more ridicule than when they launched the previous installments of the franchise.

[Julhelm]

How can it be recycled SH5 code if it runs on Flash 11?

[elanaiba]

Its not recycled Sh3/4/5 code.

[lmy76128]

ubi soft , they sold sh5 and invested online game from sh5 profits
they dont even think make any patches for sh5
what the **** news?
i was deformed by ubi company:nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope::nope:: nope:

[ADMIRALTIA]

SCREW UBISOFT FOR DOING THIS TO US. I mean the graphics look like dog poo. I hope your proud of your selves UBI.

I can make a prediction this game will get a terrible review.

Its gonna be like this:lost:

Here's my Idea lets:spammm: their pages like there's no tomorrow. It makes me :Kaleun_Sick:.

[DrJones]

We all should post comments on their facebook page stating:
- instead of fixing SH5 you did this?
- what an insult to the Silent Hunter series
- Why don't you fix what you broke (SH5) before creating another disaster
- Don't you have enough kiddies playing your games? You want more?
- How do I play when my internet is down?
- How long do we have to wait before the first patch comes out?
- Are there plans to finish the game or leave it in an unfinished state?
- Does the DRM restrict it to IE only?
- Is there an offline mode so we can play it on our tablet PCs?


Seriously, we should bombard their facebook page with negative comments :yep:


What a complete insult to the series...

Absolutley...i am still commenting everything on their facebook page...

[ADMIRALTIA]

We all should post comments on their facebook page stating:
- instead of fixing SH5 you did this?
- what an insult to the Silent Hunter series
- Why don't you fix what you broke (SH5) before creating another disaster
- Don't you have enough kiddies playing your games? You want more?
- How do I play when my internet is down?
- How long do we have to wait before the first patch comes out?
- Are there plans to finish the game or leave it in an unfinished state?
- Does the DRM restrict it to IE only?
- Is there an offline mode so we can play it on our tablet PCs?


Seriously, we should bombard their facebook page with negative comments :yep:


What a complete insult to the series...

Its more than an insult its a disgrace an outrage a great shame to us all.:agree:

Edit for some reason I broke into song

Person 1: I can see whats happening
Person 2: What?
Person 1: And They don't have a clue
Person 2: Who?
Person 1: They'll fall bankrupt and here's the bottom line the new game is doomed to fail
Ze sweet caress of money
There's magic everywhere
And with all this money in the atmosphere disasters in the air

Ring a bell anyone

[Schunken]

It semms to be a generally tendence in the game industry...

After FS X Microsoft now release "Microsoft Flight" where you pay 50$ for only Hawaian Islands and 5 planes....

Also they release three warbirds !without a cockpit! for about 5$ each...

Sigh! .... Happy I bought x-Plane 10...


Andreas

[Xajorkit]

SHO seems like it's aimed at the casual market, but that's not neccesarily a bad thing, as long as the game is fun. The more people that are introduced to ww2 submarines, even if it's through a browser game, the more interest there will be in realistic simulations in the future. At least that's what I hope.

I hope this too.



Its not recycled Sh3/4/5 code.

True.


(That's my very first post on subsim after reading it for many years... nice to meet you guys...)

[Hinrich Schwab]

It semms to be a generally tendence in the game industry...

Andreas

Funny thing. The game industry was like this almost 30 years ago. I can already see it: The Gaming Industry Crash of 2013. :yeah:

[Meldric]

Left my comment on facebook... really poor move.
The mods make this game, UBI just failed.

[Sonarman]

makes me sick also :nope: You can tell that Ubi is all about the $$$. They could give a rats you-know-what about anything else :shifty:

What makes me ever sicker is this is how all of corporate America is turning out to be...gotta make the shareholders happy and screw everyone else :nope:

Agreed but Ubisoft is French and investing in something as niche and risky as a subsim is hardly likely to please the shareholders even if it becomes a casual slant on the genre.

[THE_MASK]

It looks like it will be the same as battlefield online . If they had any brains it should be set in 1943 and users can start off with a VIIA and probably buy diffrent upgrades . Playable surface ships V subs . But it would have been nice to get some more patches for SH5 first .

[Egan]

It looks like it will be the same as battlefield online . If they had any brains it should be set in 1943 and users can start off with a VIIA and probably buy diffrent upgrades . Playable surface ships V subs . But it would have been nice to get some more patches for SH5 first .

If it had been destroyers versus U-boats I think I could have been persuaded to give it a try regardless of how arcade and lightweight it was, but, well, naah. Doesn't look like my kind of thing, really.

[Shiplord]

The games was presented yesterday here in Berlin on the "Quo Vadis" Gamedeveloper Conference and Gamer Days.

One of the main gameplay will be a award-system for your crew and level-up system for your submarine like character levels in MMO's. If you lost your sub, your crew is also lost and you must start from the beginning with a new sub/crew. You can also buy those crew awards and submarine extensions for real money in an online-shop. You will control several subs on a strategic map and could jump into the commander role on one of the subs if the local action begins. Wolfspacks with other player shall also be possible.

Overall the whole game looks a bit cartoonish like it was designed for younger casual audiance.

[TheDarkWraith]

I did work on SHO as a consultant for a couple of months before leaving Ubi. It has some potential. Will it replace SH3/4/5? Negative, I don't think it will, its a different game with a sliglty different target. But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.

If it turned out anything like what was on paper when I left, it should have some interesting tricks up its sleeve, things that you've never been able to do in the SH series before.

Its free, may be worth a try, right?

Dan

There are things you do or say just out of principle. If I were the lead on a project that tanked and was asked by the same company to consult on a different project that is related to the project I worked on I would tell them to take a flying leap. Or better yet I would tell them to complete the first project before attempting another one. I cannot be bought with $.

It all comes down to a little thing called integrity. If you don't know what that word means I'll tell you:
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

Just from what you said above one has to question your moral character and integrity.

Maybe it's because of my military background that I have integrity and not afraid to stand up for myself and what I believe/know is right :shifty:

They want subsim to like it? Are you kidding me :o After the shaft you all stuck us with on SH5? I really hope this is all a bad dream and I will wake up soon :nope:

If they want any hope in subsim liking it then they need to:
- release the source code to SH5 so we can properly fix it or
- get back to work on creating the patch(es) for SH5 to fix what is still broke

Intregrity. Ubi = NO integrity :stare:

[Jimbuna]

There are things you do or say just out of principle. If I were the lead on a project that tanked and was asked by the same company to consult on a different project that is related to the project I worked on I would tell them to take a flying leap. Or better yet I would tell them to complete the first project before attempting another one. I cannot be bought with $.

It all comes down to a little thing called integrity. If you don't know what that word means I'll tell you:
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

Just from what you said above one has to question your moral character and integrity.

Maybe it's because of my military background that I have integrity and not afraid to stand up for myself and what I believe/know is right :shifty:

They want subsim to like it? Are you kidding me :o After the shaft you all stuck us with on SH5? I really hope this is all a bad dream and I will wake up soon :nope:

If they want any hope in subsim liking it then they need to:
- release the source code to SH5 so we can properly fix it or
- get back to work on creating the patch(es) for SH5 to fix what is still broke

Intregrity. Ubi = NO integrity :stare:

Having met Dan Dimitrescu in person I, like so many others know him to be high in moral character and integrity as well as a good friend to Neal and SubSim.

Anyone seeking to go down the route of what may be perceived as insulting members will be in breach of the forum rules and appropriate action may well result.

I hope we can all get on together.

[Herr-Berbunch]

If they want any hope in subsim liking it then they need to:
- release the source code to SH3, 4, and 5 so we can properly fix them or
- get back to work on creating the patch(es) for SH5 to fix what is still broke


Fixed. All Ubi can do is release a game that tanks and leave it up to the community to fix what they can, SH5 is getting better all the time and they've not spent another penny on it!!!

FFS they couldn't even get the voice-over guy in the SHO trailer to speak with a german accent! They don't care, they want there initial rush of people paying top-whack for a game that promises all and when the prices get cut, as inevitable when the players realise they've been sold a dud, they stop any further dev.

[Madox58]

Years ago, there was an on-line Submarine game I really liked.
You started with a Merchant ship.
Once you reached your destination you could get a Sub or a surface ship then keep playing.
There was an Island in the middle of the whole thing.

I was bummed when the Game went off-line.

Anyone remember that Game?
I think it was out of Germany also.
:hmmm:

[TheDarkWraith]

Having met Dan Dimitrescu in person I, like so many others know him to be high in moral character and integrity as well as a good friend to Neal and SubSim.

Anyone seeking to go down the route of what may be perceived as insulting members will be in breach of the forum rules and appropriate action may well result.

I hope we can all get on together.

Sorry there forum cop for what you always perceive as deragatory or insulting. Quit playing forum cop and find something better to do with your time. People have a right to say what they want. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I have nothing against Dan. In fact he gave me great information in the early days of SH5 that I'm very grateful for. His decisions are his decisions. But one should be more careful what they say in a public environment, especially when it comes to the Silent Hunter franchise.

[Krauter]

(That's my very first post on subsim after reading it for many years... nice to meet you guys...)

Welcome to subsim! :salute:

I would contest the success of Warbirds and Aces High but then again, if they survived as long as they did, works for me :) But you have to remember that in both games you would pay a monthly fee in order to play!

BTW, COD is not the first game to have XP, levels and unlocks. The thing about unlocks is that they actually serves to gradually introduce features to the player without overwhelming him from the start. Would a game work without them? Sure.

I did work on SHO as a consultant for a couple of months before leaving Ubi. It has some potential. Will it replace SH3/4/5? Negative, I don't think it will, its a different game with a sliglty different target. But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.

If it turned out anything like what was on paper when I left, it should have some interesting tricks up its sleeve, things that you've never been able to do in the SH series before.

Its free, may be worth a try, right?

Dan

- Never had any experience with War Birds, but I played AH extensively while they had their free lobbies up. Great game and great atmosphere. Was fun because you weren't hamstrung to other players in "better" planes. Skill was all that mattered.

I've also never had as much fun since, then when I used to squad up with 3 other random guys with mics and play wingman. Chasing down unsuspecting guys with your wingman was fun!

- The main point that I see to argue against the whole "gradual increase in features" point that you make is this. Let's be serious, and I in no way mean to disrespect people playing COD, but really? How can someone who plays something like a subsim be put on the same level as a COD player?

The vast majority of players, that I know at least, revel in the difficulty of dealing with the multiple intricacies and difficulties of operating and commanding a WW2 submarine in combat. If we wanted dumbed down, simplified gameplay, we'd go play COD. I'll be the first to admit that some days I do absolutely love hopping into COD and just having a good time. However, when I come to play a subsim, I expect a fun yet demanding experience. Part of the fun, for me at least, is multi-tasking and seeing a whole plan sink or swim.

I did work on SHO as a consultant for a couple of months before leaving Ubi. It has some potential. Will it replace SH3/4/5? Negative, I don't think it will, its a different game with a sliglty different target. But they do want to get the Subsim guys to like it, they're very careful about it.

If it turned out anything like what was on paper when I left, it should have some interesting tricks up its sleeve, things that you've never been able to do in the SH series before.

If you've consulted with the game in the past, can you please explain to me. How the hell does Ubi expect this community to respect anything that they shove down our throats anymore? Are they so deluded and secluded from their player base that they actually think the franchise is salvageable? Are you in fact the only Ubi/SH developer to actually get in touch with this community? And if not, why do they so blatantly ignore all of the input we've desperately been trying to give them? It just boggles my mind that they can expect this community to stand by their product after so many failures in the past.

On the point of this game having "tricks up its sleeve", maybe it's just the cynic in me, but I highly doubt that these will: a) be free, and b) be functional on release, and probably after the first (most likely late..) patch. It'd probably be up to this community (again probably why they want us to like it, so that modders like TDW would cover their rears) to fix the broken product, which, in the face of it being browser based, would be impossible.

I apologize if I give you the wrong impression of me, I really do hope that there is a next great subsim to come, maybe you're even the one to lead the team that delivers it. From what I've read and heard of you you're a great guy, but at this point, the long and steady decline of Ubi in this community's eyes means that, in my opinion at least, the next great, or even mediocre subsim, is not going to come from Ubisoft.

Thanks for your time,

Krauter.

[mookiemookie]

Are you in fact the only Ubi/SH developer to actually get in touch with this community?

Mihai Maeran is a member of Subsim and has been very active in the past in helping modders.

[Krauter]

Mihai Maeran is a member of Subsim and has been very active in the past in helping modders.

Is Mr. Maeran active in developing Ubi games anymore? Or did he leave with Dan as well? (sorry I'm not familiar with their going ons).

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry there forum cop for what you always perceive as deragatory or insulting. Quit playing forum cop and find something better to do with your time. People have a right to say what they want. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Well, you openly questioned his integrity, and then went on to proclaim your own, implying that he has none. You have to admit that is pretty extreme. Sure, you get to say what you want, but you could have been a bit more circumspect about it. You say you have respect for a man but you also trash him publically?

[kiwi_2005]

My beta key began IOU....yeah bloody right!! :DL

Still waiting for my beta key :Kaleun_Mad:

[kylania]

I just died a lot inside.

[Jimbuna]

Sorry there forum cop for what you always perceive as deragatory or insulting. Quit playing forum cop and find something better to do with your time. People have a right to say what they want. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I have nothing against Dan. In fact he gave me great information in the early days of SH5 that I'm very grateful for. His decisions are his decisions. But one should be more careful what they say in a public environment, especially when it comes to the Silent Hunter franchise.

'Forum cop' eh?

Has a kind of ring to it.


find something better to do with your time


No thanks...I'll carry on doing what Neal tasked me to do if that's alright with you of course.

Steve sums it up pretty well I think.

Spectemur Agendo

[Jimbuna]

Still waiting for my beta key :Kaleun_Mad:

As far as I can ascertain I'm led to believe they are sent in batches.

[7thSeal]

What makes me ever sicker is this is how all of corporate America is turning out to be...

Really the question is was you expecting something different from corporate?

Greed is always the same only wrapped in a different package. ;)

[Bilge_Rat]

There are things you do or say just out of principle. If I were the lead on a project that tanked and was asked by the same company to consult on a different project that is related to the project I worked on I would tell them to take a flying leap. Or better yet I would tell them to complete the first project before attempting another one. I cannot be bought with $.

It all comes down to a little thing called integrity. If you don't know what that word means I'll tell you:
1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

Just from what you said above one has to question your moral character and integrity.

Maybe it's because of my military background that I have integrity and not afraid to stand up for myself and what I believe/know is right :shifty:

They want subsim to like it? Are you kidding me :o After the shaft you all stuck us with on SH5? I really hope this is all a bad dream and I will wake up soon :nope:

If they want any hope in subsim liking it then they need to:
- release the source code to SH5 so we can properly fix it or
- get back to work on creating the patch(es) for SH5 to fix what is still broke

Intregrity. Ubi = NO integrity :stare:

whoa there TDW, I can understand your frustation over this new "project", I share it myself, but there is no need to resort to personal attacks, especially not against Dan who has tried very hard to keep the "simulation" in SH, all the way back to SH III. That is not the way we do things here at Subsim.

And before anyone else starts going over the deep end over this, let's remember we are talking about a GAME.

[Wolfstriked]

Fellas,think about it.Would you make a Subsim game where you have chance of failing and losing your home/wife etc.Or would you go the route of where the money is ala Warcraft.people need to survive.

And I always think to myself that if games were to ship complete then the modding world would die out.I love coming to Subsim everyday to see whats new.;)

[Madox58]

'Forum cop' eh?

Has a kind of ring to it.



No thanks...I'll carry on doing what Neal tasked me to do if that's alright with you of course.

Steve sums it up pretty well I think.

Spectemur Agendo

Oh come on now!
We know you do it for the perks like the Company Car
and snazzy Helmet.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/forum-Cop.jpg

:har: :03:

[7thSeal]

Fellas,think about it.Would you make a Subsim game where you have chance of failing and losing your home/wife etc.

If you believe that's whats being taking into account then sadly you're flowing right along with 'business'.

[Jimbuna]

whoa there TDW, I can understand your frustation over this new "project", I share it myself, but there is no need to resort to personal attacks, especially not against Dan who has tried very hard to keep the "simulation" in SH, all the way back to SH III. That is not the way we do things here at Subsim.

And before anyone else starts going over the deep end over this, let's remember we are talking about a GAME.

Let us all move on now....please.

Oh come on now!
We know you do it for the perks like the Company Car
and snazzy Helmet.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/forum-Cop.jpg

:har: :03:

A pretty good likeness but a bit leaner these days :DL

[Madox58]

Let us all move on now....please.



A pretty good likeness but a bit leaner these days :DL
Well I should imagine so seeing as you have to pedal the Company Car to work here.
:D

[Jimbuna]

Well I should imagine so seeing as you have to pedal the Company Car to work here.
:D

Bad boy http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8586/smacka1.gif

:03:

[elanaiba]

Mihai Maerean left Ubi a bit before I did. He's now working for Adobe in Romania, happily I presume :)

I can't get mad at TDW after all the good bits he's done for SH and by extension for me and Ubi. I'm happy I left Ubi, partly because of the debacle of the SH series.

I consider myself an example of integrity but who knows, maybe I need to look at things in a different perspective. To get anything done in a company it seems you need to make some compromises, at least in Ro.

Being inside of Ubi I knew that I couldn't pull anything to fix SH5 so I perceived SHO as a new plate, esp. from a new team that had nothing to do with the issues of SH3/4/5 which are caused by us in Ubi Ro. Maybe they could do it right?

After all, I did try to get the "always-on DRM" out of SH5 every month after release and never achieved anything.

Anyway, can't stay and chat longer, my kid is getting baptized tomorrow and still have some stuff to fix for that.

Think of SHO as a standalone project centered on MP interaction. Try it if you will, could be interesting but I have to see it. I don't think you'll get anyone to give you the code for SH3/4/5 in an official form or even do another patch for those.

[Wolfstriked]

If you believe that's whats being taking into account then sadly you're flowing right along with 'business'.

I hate business but I also know that companies fold if profits are not good enough.I was a huge RPG fan yrs back.I hate them now since they are geared for the masses.But I understand that people wanna make money and that most of the companies that made the games I love have folded,though not the ones that changed their model....sadly.:(

Submarine sims are very small niche but sub fans will buy it all up like crazy.I think a better business model for them would of been to make study sims wherein one sub plus a campaign is released.Would be excellent to walk in to your local Walmart and see " TypeVII Submarine w/black sea campaign".....you would buy each and every one up.:rotfl2:Just that people complain that there is not enough content then.But study sims are different where you model as close to real life.Of course just IMHO.

[Madox58]

Dan,
When anyone questions your integrity?
I have to question their motive.

I'm willing to give SHO a fair chance for many reasons.
That you had something to do with it in anyway just gives me more reason to try it out.
:up:

Take care of that bundle of joy Mate!

:salute:
Jeff

[7thSeal]

but I also know that companies fold if profits are not good enough.

Submarine sims are very small niche but sub fans will buy it all up like crazy.

Based on what exactly, putting hope into the 'next game' ?

[Krauter]

Being inside of Ubi I knew that I couldn't pull anything to fix SH5 so I perceived SHO as a new plate,

Anyway, can't stay and chat longer, my kid is getting baptized tomorrow and still have some stuff to fix for that.

Is that how the dev team approached the new installments to the series? i.e.: from 3 to 4 to 5? If so I hope it's not a completely new plate. Keep what works fix what doesn't would be my advice to this team.

Also, enjoy the time with your family!

[Jimbuna]

Mihai Maerean left Ubi a bit before I did. He's now working for Adobe in Romania, happily I presume :)

I can't get mad at TDW after all the good bits he's done for SH and by extension for me and Ubi. I'm happy I left Ubi, partly because of the debacle of the SH series.

I consider myself an example of integrity but who knows, maybe I need to look at things in a different perspective. To get anything done in a company it seems you need to make some compromises, at least in Ro.

Being inside of Ubi I knew that I couldn't pull anything to fix SH5 so I perceived SHO as a new plate, esp. from a new team that had nothing to do with the issues of SH3/4/5 which are caused by us in Ubi Ro. Maybe they could do it right?

After all, I did try to get the "always-on DRM" out of SH5 every month after release and never achieved anything.

Anyway, can't stay and chat longer, my kid is getting baptized tomorrow and still have some stuff to fix for that.

Think of SHO as a standalone project centered on MP interaction. Try it if you will, could be interesting but I have to see it. I don't think you'll get anyone to give you the code for SH3/4/5 in an official form or even do another patch for those.

Spoken by a man with a good deal of moral character and integrity....hope the baptism goes exceedingly well my friend.

Still awaiting that drink we never shared/enjoyed at Houston Airport :03:

[Madox58]

Still awaiting that drink we never shared/enjoyed at Houston Airport :03:

Couldn't steal a Limo I presume.
:hmmm:
:har:

[Dowly]

Who knows, it might actually be good. The periscope shot reminds me a lot of Silent Service. :yep:

[Hinrich Schwab]

Being inside of Ubi I knew that I couldn't pull anything to fix SH5...

After all, I did try to get the "always-on DRM" out of SH5 every month after release and never achieved anything.


This is the root of the ire many people have with Ubi, now. As you were the head of the development team responsible for SH3, 4 and 5, if you could not convince the executives to allow you and your team to make the changes that would make the Subsim crowd happy, it simply proves that the executives of Ubisoft do not care about the hardcore sim players.

I cannot hold that against you and your (former) team. The people in the corporate offices are responsible for this. I personally see SHO as a poor attempt to cash in on the MMO craze. The execs at Ubisoft refuse to see that the hardcore subsim player is what makes the Silent Hunter franchise work. Ubi execs have sent all the signals that they want a MMO that will make money with zero effort.

The reaction would not have been so bad had it not been so blatant that the executives dropped support for SH5 like a ton of bricks. Ubisoft executives have repeatedly proven that they do not care about the gamers that have made this franchise as successful as it was. I see no reason to put any faith in them now with this new project simply because I must rely on the mod community to fix the Silent Hunter 5.

[Madox58]

It's only going to get them money if you buy crap.
Play the heck out of it but don't buy anything.
:har:

I'd bet it meets a quick demise if everyone did that!

[Julhelm]

It's a publicly traded corporation. And publicly traded corporations are only obligated to their shareholders. But they generally pay well when you work for them.

[mookiemookie]

It's a publicly traded corporation. And publicly traded corporations are only obligated to their shareholders. But they generally pay well when you work for them.

But in order to deliver value to shareholders, they need to deliver a product that sells well. Mismanaging a brand isn't the way to do that.

[thebeasle]

I'm glad they're keeping the series alive. Maybe they'll realize after SH Online fails that it's in the best interest of fans and business to release a serious sub sim. Kind of like when Maxis released "Sim Cities Societies" where they nerfed the simulation and now are back to making (supposedly) a real sim city game.

Microsoft Flight seems to be tanking. I wonder if Microsoft will go back and make a real flight simulator.

After SH Online fails, I hope Ubi makes a real SH6. If they don't make a serious sub sim, maybe there will be room for independent developers to make one (like X-Plane). That guy behind X-Plane has made a ton of money. http://techhaze.com/2010/03/interview-with-x-plane-creator-austin-meyer/

Until then, I'm very grateful to the modding community for making SH5 a lot of fun to play.

[Obelix]

I was even scared to imagine what it would be!:doh::Kaleun_Sick: Silent Hunter - online, so even browser!? I think of a decent gameplay and realism can be forgotten at all!:nope:

[Julhelm]

Well they're making ever more money every year so obviously they aren't mismanaging things. We might think they are mismanaging etc but we're not the target audience for big publishers anymore.

It's like when the milsim crowd whines about how UBI ruined Ghost Recon or Rainbow 6 but the games sell more on consoles than they ever did as PC exclusives, keeping shareholders happy.

SH in itself is just another franchise and franchises exist to be milked to the last drop. I'm just surprised and disappointed UBI didn't let the franchise jump on the modern warfare bandwagon like every other franchise. Could've been interesting.

[TheDarkWraith]

There's a fundamental flaw in their business model. It's clear that they and many other developers are targeting the casual gamer and the kiddies. The flaw is these people are not brand loyal - they will switch to the next big thing in a heart beat. All they (upper management) see is short term profits. Short term profits do not sustain a business. If they were to target the brand loyal consumers and actually develop something real that was fully tested and worked as delivered and charged a premium price for it they would get repeat customers. Repeat customers sustain a business. I would gladly pay $100 for a sub sim that was near perfect as delivered AND was an actual sim and not an arcade game.

But sadly this will probably never happen. The Gen X and Gen Y kiddies are the instant gratification generation and they want everything now. The developers are tailoring to them and forgetting about everyone else because that's where the short term profits are :nope:

[Wolfstriked]

Based on what exactly, putting hope into the 'next game' ?

If it fails it fails for them and they lose their job.I wish them luck.:yep:

[theluckyone17]

I'm going to stay cautious optimistic. I hope"
SH Online takes off without a hitch.
It's relatively bug free.
The casual players latch onto it like Farmville. (hey, it's nice to dream...)
A great deal of the feedback received by Ubisoft afterwards concerns the amount of realism and detail.


Note that the above doesn't mean I'll actually play it... SH5 with mods has sucked me in pretty deep.

[Red October1984]

Y'all quit hatin on Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon. :nope: :stare:

And SHO is sounding pretty nice to me. My system isn't powerful enough to run SH4 and 5.

[Drewcifer]

The fact is Simulation = hard the companies of today want to toss out games that give instant gratifaction with minimal effort in learning the controls or concepts of what makes the game work.

We are a dying breed and a very, VERY small portion of the costumer base for these companies. Modern Warfare, Battle field, Assassins Creed, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Madden, Halo, Uncharted... if you aren't one of these games or VERY VERY similar then you simply aren't even up for consideration as a big seller.

That said I think its time we all start looking to the indie developers they are really starting to produce some quality stuff and all I can say is games like Grimrock blow me away it is nostalgia at its best, perhaps not everybodies favorite genre but it is surely a good sign and perhaps someday an indie developer will make a subsim but I know it won't ever be an EA title unless the Subs can fly and do barrel rolls.

[mookiemookie]

Well they're making ever more money every year so obviously they aren't mismanaging things. We might think they are mismanaging etc but we're not the target audience for big publishers anymore.

It's like when the milsim crowd whines about how UBI ruined Ghost Recon or Rainbow 6 but the games sell more on consoles than they ever did as PC exclusives, keeping shareholders happy.

SH in itself is just another franchise and franchises exist to be milked to the last drop. I'm just surprised and disappointed UBI didn't let the franchise jump on the modern warfare bandwagon like every other franchise. Could've been interesting.

I understand what you're saying - any publisher is going to want a broader audience for a series. Look at Skyrim and compare it to Morrowind, for example...the RPG elements have been toned down in favor of action. While I still consider Morrowind to be one of the greatest games ever, I can't fault Bethesda for doing what they did, and the sales figures for Skyrim bear out their design decisions.

But I still say that the Silent Hunter brand was damaged, probably irreparably, by SH5. In an attempt to broaden the audience for the game, some half baked RPG elements were mashed together with sim elements that were rushed and incomplete. The end result is a product that makes no one happy, and consequently sales tanked. If Ubi had allowed/told the devs to stick to the blueprint that SH3 laid out, and update and improve where necessary they may not have increased the audience appreciably, but they would have given the existing fanbase what they wanted and redeemed themselves in the eyes of the customers who made the SH franchise what it is. While that would be great for us as sub sim fans, I think it would have also delivered decent enough sales, which helps the bottom line. I'm a firm believer in the idea that doing right by customers is the best way to profitability.

[reignofdeath]

There's a fundamental flaw in their business model. It's clear that they and many other developers are targeting the casual gamer and the kiddies. The flaw is these people are not brand loyal - they will switch to the next big thing in a heart beat. All they (upper management) see is short term profits. Short term profits do not sustain a business. If they were to target the brand loyal consumers and actually develop something real that was fully tested and worked as delivered and charged a premium price for it they would get repeat customers. Repeat customers sustain a business. I would gladly pay $100 for a sub sim that was near perfect as delivered AND was an actual sim and not an arcade game.

But sadly this will probably never happen. The Gen X and Gen Y kiddies are the instant gratification generation and they want everything now. The developers are tailoring to them and forgetting about everyone else because that's where the short term profits are :nope:

Great way to put it TDW, hell, I AM from those generations, and I think the overall instant gratification move is sad.

[Julhelm]

But I don't think forumdwellers are the target audience for this just like how the AVSIM crowd wasn't the target for MS Flight.

In flightsim land there used to be TK as the indie king, but even he seems to have given up on sims these days. So I don't think we'll see an indie subsim anytime soon.

[joea]

Wow, pretty disappointed overall with the direction UBI has taken but I'll withhold judgement until people have actually played it.

[Jimbuna]

Couldn't steal a Limo I presume.
:hmmm:
:har:

Could have and would have but it would be too big to get into the plane home :DL

[Commie]

I can see it now: Facebook and Twitter integration.

You'll be able to give FB requests to your friends to give your crew special soup and load the torpedoes.

Maybe they'll have submarine hats available as DLC.

At level 50 your submarine will unlock a super cavitation drive.

[P_Funk]

You know CoD sucks. I hate it, I hate the gameplay, I hate the community, I hate how it makes Counterstrike look like bloody ArmA, I hate the fact that they limit it to 60 FOV now not just cause Xbox isnt as powerful as a PC but also because it narrows your view thus increasing the spammy gameplay, but... when all that is said and done, I understand it. You know that most people are idiots anyway with no taste. For every John Lennon, Jim Morrison, and Jimi Hendrix you get a million Bee Gees. Alright, I can live with that, cause I always roll my eyes and laugh and go find my niche that is so much better.

And while I've been able to do that with film, music, books, pretty much everything else, gaming has slowly been killing the niche. Why? I don't know. They just can't seem to get on board with a project anymore that breaks new ground, is polished to a high quality, and which appeals to more than just the face rolling 15 year olds who apparenlty can't even muster the brain power to play an even marginally challenging game.

So I said it, I understand why CoD exists, whatever, game on. But why do companies like Ubi take a niche game and try and turn it into a mainstream one? I don't understand. Its like pissing off all the Patriots fans cause you decided to replace them with an XFL team.

Sims are niche games. They appeal only to a very very small crowd. I don't get it why they look at the relatively poor sales and try and make it into something that it isn't. Its not like there's potential in this game. Does anybody really think in that boardroom that this online thing is going to make them a lot of money? I think its almost a reflex. They just naturally like someone with OCD tinker and bugger with everything to try and fit their little agenda. They have that vision and its usually completely out of touch with reality. How many great games get directives from publishers and when the reviews come pouring in they say its crap and needs patching?

I'm so pissed off. I'm so tired of it. I've been an avid gamer since the late 90s and I've watched the steady decline. I feel like Hunter Thompson sitting in a Vegas hotel room looking out over the desert seeing where that wave broke, wishing I was still there. Gaming used to be great. Now its just polluted by absurdly bad money grabbing.

I was playing the new Tribes game this week. Its also free to play. They gutted the core of that game. Made it so casual accessible. Another great game ruined by the need for "mass appeal".

I don't get it. Why can't they just have their niche market and their mainstream one? Why do they have to marginalize us? They know we're gonna hate it. But we're the ones that made Silent Hunter into a franchise that existed for 5 releases. How does that make sense?

Its baffling. But I think we're in a critical mass for gaming right now. Looking at how things are going Ubi and for EA they've been playing some strange games in their development. EA is really in trouble I think. Not real trouble but I can see some issues down the line for PC gaming. Bioware got bought by EA and now they stink. The Old Republic? Awful. Mass Effect 3? Well they keep saying 'don't finish it, disappointed'.

Its like, they've cracked the mainstream, now they don't know how to actually make it good. All the energy seems to go into making money, the schemes for collecting it. Why make a good game when you can make amediocre one that costs like 60 to 80 bucks in microtransactions for the average user to see it all and then decide it sucks?

I remember back in the day when a game that launched needing a patch just to be playable was a kind of sin. Like a laughing stock. Now, its business as usual. I've seen the high water mark. I saw the wave break. I'm going back to GWX and pretending this news never penetrated by cynical consciousness. :damn:

[quink99]

I concur completely, TDW, and would gladly join you in the "$100 line". It is thanks to your efforts and those of many other diligent MODDERS that we are approaching having a true sim instead of an arcade game.

My sincere thanks to all of you who have helped by showing that you can, indeed, "make a silk purse from a sow's ear."

[mookiemookie]

My guess is that it has to do with the increase in popularity of games in general. It used to be that the audience for PC games was smaller and more... tech savvy? (I'm guessing here.) This crowd appreciated in-depth games with steep learning curves....games like simulators, the Ultima series, A Bard's Tale and all of the other D&D titles...things that required patience. Game companies could afford to indulge the niche category players because that's all there was. You weren't going to increase your audience substantially by dumbing down...excuse me, streamlining....your games, as there wasn't much of audience as a whole to gain. The entire market was a niche.

As video games grew in popularity, the audience grew bigger and less sophisticated as a whole. Stuff like shooters and hack and slash and fast twitch games appeal to someone who doesn't want to think, but just wants to play. By getting rid of the hardcore detail-oriented parts of your game, you could appeal to these players and gain more of this growing audience. If you restricted yourself to niche type games, you're only ever going to sell to the niche type market, which comprises a smaller percentage of the market as a whole than it did 15 or 20 years ago. And when it comes down to it, unit sales are the only real metric that matters, so anything that limits your sales is out of the question.

Pure speculation and I have no evidence of any of this other than what I've pulled out of my butt. But it makes sense to me.

[Bilge_Rat]

Well they're making ever more money every year so obviously they aren't mismanaging things. We might think they are mismanaging etc but we're not the target audience for big publishers anymore.


Agreed. Major publishers now are like major film studios, only interested in releasing profitable blockbusters.

SH3 and 4 each sold around 100-200,000 units, certainly respectable numbers, but a fraction of the estimated $ 1 Billion in sales for "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3". Almost all the major publishers bailed out of the sim market in 1999-2000. If SH could not reach a mass market, it was only a matter of time before Ubisoft dropped the franchise.

[Cyril]

Like some of you guys points out, I think, that we should give SH5 Online a chance. At least we will see yet a new subsim and general interest might grove for such type of game. But general, I must admit, that I find it diffecult to belive, that a sim game like a subsim should be an online game.

[Bilge_Rat]

But I still say that the Silent Hunter brand was damaged, probably irreparably, by SH5. In an attempt to broaden the audience for the game, some half baked RPG elements were mashed together with sim elements that were rushed and incomplete. The end result is a product that makes no one happy, and consequently sales tanked. If Ubi had allowed/told the devs to stick to the blueprint that SH3 laid out, and update and improve where necessary they may not have increased the audience appreciably, but they would have given the existing fanbase what they wanted and redeemed themselves in the eyes of the customers who made the SH franchise what it is. While that would be great for us as sub sim fans, I think it would have also delivered decent enough sales, which helps the bottom line. I'm a firm believer in the idea that doing right by customers is the best way to profitability.

That is debatable. The potential market for hardcore simulations as always been very small and even when quality naval sims come out, the customers are not there:

"Dangerous Waters" had all the elements players say they are looking for in a subsim: many platforms, realistic sensor and weapon performance, 500 page
manual. Sales were poor and Sonalyst has abandonned the market;

"Silent Hunter 4" was an improvement over SH3 in many areas, but because of a few minor bugs at release it was savaged by the community and sold relatively poorly.

In addition, wargamers are notoriously difficult to please. They are ten times more demanding and critical than other gamers.

So if you are an executive at a major publisher, why would you waste your time on sub/naval sims when simmers themselves may not even buy what you offer them? For much less aggravation, you can produce "Assassin's Creed X" and be garanteed $100 milion in sales. Its a no brainer.

[i2Cold]

Guys I figured it out. Silent Hunter V didn't have a beta. Which means no bugs were fixed. However Silent Hunter Online has some beta testing which means we get to track down all the bugs. Besides F2P games are usually not left alone such as "APB Reloaded" "Battlefield Heroes" "Battlefield Play4Free" "MicroVolts" this means that there will always be new Content/Patches for the game. Anyways that's what i think. That's my opinion. I'd love if you give Ubisoft one more chance. God forgives then you should forgive.We will see how the game ends up.

Thanks for taking your time to read this message and goodbye :)

[Julhelm]

I don't know about Dangerous Waters. It it basically retained all the flaws of 688I and Sub Command and just added more platforms. They also completely dropped the ball on the chance to make the modern warfare theme exciting, which is Big Fail when you deal with something a lot of people are predisposed to think of as boring.

[Hinrich Schwab]

That is debatable. The potential market for hardcore simulations as always been very small and even when quality naval sims come out, the customers are not there:

While the customers are fewer than mainstream games, they are dedicated, generally older than the average gamer and will pay for a quality sim without question. I know I would.

"Dangerous Waters" had all the elements players say they are looking for in a subsim: many platforms, realistic sensor and weapon performance, 500 page
manual. Sales were poor and Sonalyst has abandonned the market;

The problem with Dangerous Waters was one of marketing and advertising. Quite frankly, I never heard of it before I came here. However, I had seen advertisements for SH 3, 4 and 5 around their release times. Likewise, Sonalysts is a DoD contractor. The bulk of their work is for the military and I never expected them to make a dedicated footprint on the gaming market. I hypothesize that Dangerous Waters was an in-between project to keep the company going between defense contract projects.


"Silent Hunter 4" was an improvement over SH3 in many areas, but because of a few minor bugs at release it was savaged by the community and sold relatively poorly.

I can't really comment on this. The impression I received from other members who were about during the SH4 release was that the bugs were a bit more than minor. Likewise, some bugs that were in SH 3 (crash dive bug. Submerged save bug) carried over and created a lot of flak.


In addition, wargamers are notoriously difficult to please. They are ten times more demanding and critical than other gamers.
Yes, and for good reason. Wargamers expect a simulated experience, not a casual one. Wargamers want something more than a simple, casual game but equally less than the real thing (due to various limitations). Many are either history buffs, professionals or veterans if not some combination thereof. Another issue is one of technical mastery and skill. Anyone can play "Battleship", but to master Silent Hunter or Dangerous Waters and survive against human opponents of equal or greater skill, is an accomplishment.

So if you are an executive at a major publisher, why would you waste your time on sub/naval sims when simmers themselves may not even bu[y what you offer them? For much less aggravation, you can produce "Assassin's Creed X" and be garanteed $100 milion in sales. Its a no brainer.

I am not an executive and therefore anything I say is pure speculation. I see the wargaming market as a small niche that for all its weaknesses and challenges is begging for a reliable publisher to satisfy its needs. Will it make billions of dollars? No. However, producing a product that goes out of its way to please the grognards of the community will ensure an ironclad customer base, which is guaranteed income.

[Hinrich Schwab]

I don't know about Dangerous Waters. It it basically retained all the flaws of 688I and Sub Command and just added more platforms. They also completely dropped the ball on the chance to make the modern warfare theme exciting, which is Big Fail when you deal with something a lot of people are predisposed to think of as boring.

Define "exciting". If you expected a modern naval warfare game to be exiting in respect to blowing stuff up, I am not surprised that you are disappointed. Modern naval warfare is about tension and brinksmanship. It is about how sneaky one can be without getting caught. How far can one push before triggering an international diplomatic incident. Likewise, many modern naval missions are surprisingly mundane. Oceanographic surveys, reconnaissance, general patrol and such. My only gripe with DW is the generated missions are about blowing stuff up and the generator doesn't necessarily give you enough time to plot a good solution before the target escapes. It is quaint the first few times, but becomes dull quickly.

[elanaiba]

I'd say just this, the problem with the simulation market is that the buyers cant even agree on whats wrong with the products.

[Julhelm]

Exciting as in WW2-exciting. Or Hunt for the Red October-exciting. Or Red Storm Rising-exciting. Red Storm Rising managed to portray 1980's submarine ops in an intense and exciting manner because it went for a big, WW2-style shooting war against a numerically superior enemy.

DW on the other hand portrays modern ops much like the small-scale skirmishes one would realistically expect post-USSR and as a result is rather more dull. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice some realism in order to craft a fun experience. Even milsims like ARMA do this to some extent. As it is, such a hardcore sim as DW will never cater to anyone but the most hardcore simmer, which is about as niche as it gets. It can have all the merits in the world in regards to systems modelling etc but that doesn't matter when the stock scenarios it ships with are unimaginative and mundane. At least in SH4 you get some payoff for all the hard work by getting treated with some nice fireworks, but DW fails in that regard too.

I'm a more casual simmer so while I find more "lite" sims like Strike Fighters or Red Storm Rising entertaining and worthwhile ultra-hardcore sims like DCS and DW are too complex and dull to be worthwhile to me.

Btw, consider that I play Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack more or less on a regular basis still, while the Sonalysts games remain shelved. But maybe I'm an anomaly.

[Julhelm]

I'd say just this, the problem with the simulation market is that the buyers cant even agree on whats wrong with the products.
It's probably because the simulation buyers aren't a homogenous bunch. There are the hardcore simmers who want 100% uncompromising realism ala DCS and then there are the lite simmers who prefer more easy-going realism like Wings of Prey or Strike Fighters. The only thing they have in common is that they dislike arcade flight games like HAWX or Ace Combat Assault Horizon :)

[Hinrich Schwab]

Exciting as in WW2-exciting. Or Hunt for the Red October-exciting. Or Red Storm Rising-exciting. Red Storm Rising managed to portray 1980's submarine ops in an intense and exciting manner because it went for a big, WW2-style shooting war against a numerically superior enemy.

DW on the other hand portrays modern ops much like the small-scale skirmishes one would realistically expect post-USSR and as a result is rather more dull. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice some realism in order to craft a fun experience. Even milsims like ARMA do this to some extent. As it is, such a hardcore sim as DW will never cater to anyone but the most hardcore simmer, which is about as niche as it gets. It can have all the merits in the world in regards to systems modelling etc but that doesn't matter when the stock scenarios it ships with are unimaginative and mundane. At least in SH4 you get some payoff for all the hard work by getting treated with some nice fireworks, but DW fails in that regard too.

I'm a more casual simmer so while I find more "lite" sims like Strike Fighters or Red Storm Rising entertaining and worthwhile ultra-hardcore sims like DCS and DW are too complex and dull to be worthwhile to me.

Btw, consider that I play Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack more or less on a regular basis still, while the Sonalysts games remain shelved. But maybe I'm an anomaly.

You aren't an anomaly, DW just doesn't suit your preferred play style, that is all. :) To be fair, DW is pretty hardcore, as is Sub Command and the other Sonalysts sims.

[Julhelm]

Yeah. I'd like to believe there probably exists a whole bunch of customers like me that haven't been sufficiently catered to in the nuke sim market. God knows I've wanted a Red Storm Rising-like game literally for ages. It's actually to the point where I'm learning programming just to be able to do it myself :damn:

[Sonarman]

In case you haven't seen it before you can read Sid Meier's thoughts on Red Storm Rising and his other games in this excellent Gamespot article (http://www.civfanatics.com/sidlegacy#storm)

Subsim member Weps was actually working on an RSR remake but his site has not been updated in a while - check it out here (http://www.microprose.nl/home.php)

[martes86]

Well, I think we can safely assume that the market for subsims is pretty much a goner unless a new independent company rises up and develops the subsim of our dreams. With the most outstanding saga of the genre going haywire, seems like we'll be stuck with the same titles for a veeeery long while.

While I don't doubt that SHO could indeed be fun and all that (haven't tried it yet), specially since I've played a few MMOs, so it's not like I despise the genre, I think that (and I'm sure lots of people will agree with me) it wasn't the way to go. Lots of things could have been done on SH5, but instead, they try to squeeze more money by converting a WW2 naval sim into an MMO, a genre which I never thought I'd associate with a sim.

Oh and it runs in Flash (game performance issues, anyone?). Definitely not the way to go, folks. We're not given access to source codes because they know for a fact that anything coming into the community's hands, returns as a kick-ass product loved by everyone without need for anything else, which means no new purchases, no business for them.

Finally, I couldn't miss the chance (now that I've noticed the previous posts; hi Dan :salute:) to thank the devs again for doing all they could in taking the SH saga to a good place, too bad that money is the only thing that talks (besides the CEOs) at corporate management.

Cheers

[Hinrich Schwab]

Ubi is writing this in ActionScript??!!

:har::haha::haha::har::har:

Good luck with that and all of the fun bugs that generates...buttons that don't work. CPU hogging...disappearing local data and such.:D:woot:

[Webster]

I'd say just this, the problem with the simulation market is that the buyers cant even agree on whats wrong with the products.


lol, sad but true, everyone wants something different for it to be their perfect sim game


thank you for all you have done for us and the SH series :salute:

it makes me want to get in someones face and tell them to show some respect when i see some of the offhand and uncalled for remarks directed your way.

i pray you always find a way to ignore them and not be bothered by them :up:

[Gotmilk]

No way we should give this junk a chance. Have you seen the screenshots?

In one screenshot you can see things like "visibility meter" and just look at this stupid chat window. "Global chat" "wish list" "guild chat" "trade"

Hey here is an idea. Lets form a Subsim guild and dominate the atlantic :D

For me the one thing is clear. There is NEVER going to be a SH6 and UBI just wanted to use a well known game. So they took silent hunter and made arcade style mediocre mmo. Its probably gonna be something like Farmville but only with submarines.

The kids or so called "casual gamers" will probably love it but its a spit to the face of the people who supported SH franchise all those years.

[Hawk66]

Exciting as in WW2-exciting. Or Hunt for the Red October-exciting. Or Red Storm Rising-exciting. Red Storm Rising managed to portray 1980's submarine ops in an intense and exciting manner because it went for a big, WW2-style shooting war against a numerically superior enemy.

DW on the other hand portrays modern ops much like the small-scale skirmishes one would realistically expect post-USSR and as a result is rather more dull. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice some realism in order to craft a fun experience. Even milsims like ARMA do this to some extent. As it is, such a hardcore sim as DW will never cater to anyone but the most hardcore simmer, which is about as niche as it gets. It can have all the merits in the world in regards to systems modelling etc but that doesn't matter when the stock scenarios it ships with are unimaginative and mundane.


Concerning DW: You have the toolbox at your fingertips to create any mission you like, also 'unrealistic ones'...I do not see where the problem is.
It is also in general possible to create your own scenario generator, since the necessary files are in an open, unencrypted format available.

You refer to Arma: Actually, here it is the same: the (major) content comes from the community, BIS provides the framework/sandbox.

The issue is that far more people are interested in a 3D infantry combat simulator than in a modern naval simulator.

[lmy76128]

No way we should give this junk a chance. Have you seen the screenshots?

In one screenshot you can see things like "visibility meter" and just look at this stupid chat window. "Global chat" "wish list" "guild chat" "trade"

Hey here is an idea. Lets form a Subsim guild and dominate the atlantic :D

For me the one thing is clear. There is NEVER going to be a SH6 and UBI just wanted to use a well known game. So they took silent hunter and made arcade style mediocre mmo. Its probably gonna be something like Farmville but only with submarines.

The kids or so called "casual gamers" will probably love it but its a spit to the face of the people who supported SH franchise all those years.
i agree what you said

[Julhelm]

Concerning DW: You have the toolbox at your fingertips to create any mission you like, also 'unrealistic ones'...I do not see where the problem is.
It is also in general possible to create your own scenario generator, since the necessary files are in an open, unencrypted format available.
And this is the major flaw. I have maybe 2hrs a week where I can sit down and play games, and I want to spend my time playing games and as such I have no interest in installing tons of mods and learning to code my own missions just to have some fun. If I pay good money for a game I sort of expect it to come with some decent missions, not having to create them myself. Which is why DW and all the other Sonalysts sims remain shelved indefinitely here while I play RSR and Fast Attack instead.

If Red Storm Rising could ship with a dynamic campaign with an infinite number of scenarios, and Fast Attack could ship with hundreds of scripted scenarios, why couldn't Sonalysts? They even reused the same ship models that shipped with Fleet Command, which is the height of laziness and another flaw - if you want to target more lite simmers, you can't ship a product in 2006 with shipmodels from 1998.

If I buy a subsim, I want to drive submarines, not tool around in editors. I do that **** for a living already.

And ARMA, sandbox or not, always came with a pretty decent SP campaign. As does Strike Fighters.

But I suppose we are actually talking past each other here.

[Hawk66]

I see your points...but may I point you to the fact that DW shipped with a pretty decent semi-dynamic campaign, which received high praises - also from non naval game magazines like gamespot.

What is missing in DW is a more sophisticated (random) mission generator but that's also valid for Arma II...

In general if you want to just jump into a game, to relax from a stressful day than hardcore sims is the wrong choice IMO - especially DW, which is slow-paced due to its simulated platforms. I consider this more as a kind of a serious hobby like building model planes and that stuff.

So, I guess there will be never a DW Online game...

...Usually I am not a nostalgic guy...but I have to remember the good old 80's, when I was a teen and there were at least two very good sims released each year...

Perhaps it is also an outcome of our fast-paced way to life - at least in the West. Personally, I do not know a lot of people in 'real life', who are addicted to one topic and are spending their spare time with it...

[Julhelm]

That's the thing, though: I don't want hardcore sims. Nor do I want arcade games. I want lite sims which are geared more towards gameplay than realism. The problem with the reviews on gamespot et all is that they all tend to have one journalist who is a hardcore simmer and he gets sent all the sim-type games the others in the office won't touch. So it's not surprising that DW's campaign recieved praises. It's a perfectly realistic and very plausible contemporary scenario and that's where it fails for me because I don't find contemporary to be anywhere near as interesting as NATO vs Warsaw Pact.

Same reason I'm not very excited about SHO even though it potentially is geared towards me - it's U-Boats again. Big Yawn.

[Shiplord]

At the Developer-Conference in Berlin last Friday one of the BlueByte mamagers said they have already over 2 million registered users with their last F2P game "Settlers Online" and a large part of them also use the ingame item shop for real money. The game has received several awards in the gaming industry and they want to continue this success with another popular brand series of Ubisoft.

[chun]

No way we should give this junk a chance. Have you seen the screenshots?

In one screenshot you can see things like "visibility meter" and just look at this stupid chat window. "Global chat" "wish list" "guild chat" "trade"

Hey here is an idea. Lets form a Subsim guild and dominate the atlantic :D

For me the one thing is clear. There is NEVER going to be a SH6 and UBI just wanted to use a well known game. So they took silent hunter and made arcade style mediocre mmo. Its probably gonna be something like Farmville but only with submarines.

The kids or so called "casual gamers" will probably love it but its a spit to the face of the people who supported SH franchise all those years.
:yep::up:

[i2Cold]

This game will succeed I assure you. As i stated before this is a F2P game which means the developpers are gonna stay focused on this project. Look at any F2P game (Battlefield Heroes, Battlefield Play4Free , APB Reloaded, MicroVolts) They're all F2P games and always have new updates and patches.Besides Silent Hunter V didn't have beta. But Silent Hunter Online will have a beta. Beta is only to test the game and search for bugs. So if there is a beta for this game they will fix the bugs.

[Hinrich Schwab]

This game will succeed I assure you. As i stated before this is a F2P game which means the developpers are gonna stay focused on this project. Look at any F2P game (Battlefield Heroes, Battlefield Play4Free , APB Reloaded, MicroVolts) They're all F2P games and always have new updates and patches.Besides Silent Hunter V didn't have beta. But Silent Hunter Online will have a beta. Beta is only to test the game and search for bugs. So if there is a beta for this game they will fix the bugs.

Where does your misplaced faith and litany of assumptions come from? Most of the members here have observed Ubisoft for a number of years. The F2P model is schmuck bait to make players pay for in-game items and equipment that make the game worth playing. F2P players always get stuck with crap equipment and the worst of the worst in terms of of anything. All F2P games are a gamble in that respect.

Ubisoft has repeatedly proven that if there is not MAJOR profit, it will screw its consumers. I guarantee that if this does not pull a major profit in a quarter or so, they will drop this just as hard as they did SH5. Period.

Also, as I joked earlier, using Flash/ActionScript for this project is a recipe for disaster. Flash is a MAJOR resource hog, is subject to the bizarre update whims of Adobe and worst of all, stores all of its data in temporary flash files that are deleted when most internet cleanup programs are run. This means that players are either unable to delete local data or are reliant on Ubi servers to store data...and Ubi has already proven they cannot do THAT right.

[Julhelm]

Well Rise of Flight is F2P as well and that has held up pretty well, as has World of Tanks. I'll reserve judgement until I have tried out the game for sure, but U-boats? Meh. They'll have to work hard to get me excited about that, lol.

[elanaiba]

There is a difference between free 2 play and Pay 2 win, western-made games are not normally of the latter type. See for example Team Fortress 2 ...

[Hinrich Schwab]

There is a difference between free 2 play and Pay 2 win, western-made games are not normally of the latter type. See for example Team Fortress 2 ...

Granted, but one can only be disappointed so many times before no more faith remains.

[i2Cold]

I see a lot of people in F2P games that didn't buy in game material with real money. Nobody forces you too it's like that with all F2P's Not just silent hunter.

[7thSeal]

If it fails it fails for them and they lose their job.I wish them luck.:yep:

SH5 wasn't exactly a sim but a migration to console, it didn't fail and you're expecting the next game to lean toward PC? Heck even the 'online' phase is enough to see that it won't be a sim. But if sim gamers run out and buy it then what the heck no failures or jobs lost and business goes on as usual.

[Deep Source]

Ubi don't have a good support for single player games!

Now a online game?

Edit

After view the screenshot i see.

It's a game not a simulator.

I pass! To limbo this junk. Even satan no deserve this trash.

[7thSeal]

All they (upper management) see is short term profits. Short term profits do not sustain a business.

The Gen X and Gen Y kiddies are the instant gratification generation and they want everything now. The developers are tailoring to them and forgetting about everyone else because that's where the short term profits are :nope:

You nailed it, short term profits has become the 'world race' so its sustaining business for now... nothing is competing against it any longer because of the instant entertainment available. Sadly its not going to change anytime soon. :cry:

[W_clear]

http://us.silenthunteronline.com/

http://us.silenthunteronline.com/img/feature_2.jpg

http://us.silenthunteronline.com/img/en/feature_1.jpg

[Hinrich Schwab]

There are already about half a dozen topics on this already

[Sailor Steve]

:yep: Including one on this forum.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194793
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194697
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194683

[THE_MASK]

Hello W_clear :salute:

[von faust]

With my bad English I'm writing to Ubi this: "Ubi, You are really losing my trust because of how they put out SH5. Why UBI ????? There are hundreds of players waiting for new patches and features for SH5. Why you have abandoned the project ????"

[Gorduz]

Ubisoft relasing MMO called silent hunter online that can be played in you browser?
Is this true?

http://pc.gamespy.com/web-games/silent-hunter-online/1223838p1.html

I feel like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQgtSgtey5w&feature=g-all-u

[elanaiba]

2 years after the release of SH5 might be a little late to expect patches :(

[THE_MASK]

2 years after the release of SH5 might be a little late to expect patches :(How are you anyway .

[Sailor Steve]

I can understand that you might not read other forums, but how did you miss the other two threads about it on this very page?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194807
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194793

[Gorduz]

sorry, I skimmed through but missed them.. just block this thread,

[kiwi_2005]

I see a lot of people in F2P games that didn't buy in game material with real money. Nobody forces you too it's like that with all F2P's Not just silent hunter.

:yep:

If you have the time to spare then grind and you wont need to spend a cent. Otherwise if work or family life come first then the option is there to buy the stuff that others grind for. I mostly prefer to grind whether it takes weeks or months that way it feels Ive earn whatever I am going for at the time.

[miltonfilhos]

If microsoft who maybe have a much larger community, failed with the "Flight"
why the ubisoft think will achieve some success with this??
or am I crazy or are they.:down::down::down:

[Onkel Neal]

... I'll withhold judgement until people have actually played it.

That's how I try to look at every new game.

Of course, no matter what anyone does to Silent Hunter XXX, we'll still have SH3, SH4, etc.

[Rip]

This game will succeed I assure you. As i stated before this is a F2P game which means the developpers are gonna stay focused on this project. Look at any F2P game (Battlefield Heroes, Battlefield Play4Free , APB Reloaded, MicroVolts) They're all F2P games and always have new updates and patches.Besides Silent Hunter V didn't have beta. But Silent Hunter Online will have a beta. Beta is only to test the game and search for bugs. So if there is a beta for this game they will fix the bugs.

How is the kool-aid?

:zzz:

[Julhelm]

If microsoft who maybe have a much larger community, failed with the "Flight"
why the ubisoft think will achieve some success with this??
or am I crazy or are they.:down::down::down:
Maybe UBI will release a game that is, you know, entertaining? MS Flight failed hard because there literally is nothing to do in the game but fly over a lifeless, static Hawaii.

[Gotmilk]

You know whats the worst thing about silenthunteronlineblahblablah game?

Our talented modders cannot fix it :D

[Julhelm]

How do you know they'd have to?

[andwii]

exactly. I am with holding judgment and im hoping to get into the beta. I for one think its a cool concept that our collective efforts will change the war in our favor (so says ubi).

[Iron Budokan]

Thanks, but I guess I will pass on this. Hope it works out, though, and people like it. :)

[GalaxianFive]

With a bit of luck there is one thing that may happen with this type of silent hunter game. They may expand it over time if the initial game is judged a success. We may finally get British U, S, and T class subs in the Mediteranean as well as Jap I type boats in the Pacific, not to mention other senarios. Anyone fancy attacking Tirpitz in an X craft? Lets play it first and see, it will be a new experience for me as I don't own a console and have not played online games. I cannot see the point of them, any fool can aim the sight and pull the trigger, our sub sims are so much more than that. The screen shots look good, lets play it and then praise or condem whichever is correct.

[codmander]

awesome trailer graphics... that should be in the next sh game graphics:yeah: anything less would probly be dissapointing :down: allthough I think a mpgame with no ports just a convoy, u boats, and destoyers get to command merchants,subs or drop dc's from destoyers on your buddys :rock: would be ok

[tonschk]

I agree :DL :yeah:

awesome trailer graphics... that should be in the next sh game graphics:yeah: anything less would probly be dissapointing :down:

[Sonarman]

There seems to be quite a disconnect between the "trailer graphics" and what is visible in the actual periscope shown in the still images. I hope it's not just a render for advertising purposes.

[Stormfly]

Flash 11 seams to be bull****, not capable rendering 3D interrior ? (just kidding, but shame on you UBI)

...the community demand a second "Destroyer Command" (what was aviable for SH2) for beeing able fighting each other, if they manage to combine a MMO with full 3D support and pilotable surface vessels (human DD´s protecting a convoy) maybe also other ships like cruisers or BB`s, in a realistic sim (not a housewive like "casualator"), it could grow to a real winner...

[jpinard]

This game will succeed I assure you. As i stated before this is a F2P game which means the developers are gonna stay focused on this project. Look at any F2P game (Battlefield Heroes, Battlefield Play4Free , APB Reloaded, MicroVolts) They're all F2P games and always have new updates and patches.Besides Silent Hunter V didn't have beta. But Silent Hunter Online will have a beta. Beta is only to test the game and search for bugs. So if there is a beta for this game they will fix the bugs.

APB Reloaded has been a financial disaster. I'm not sure how you can call that a success. Furthermore your whole beta argument is insane. All UBisoft products go through internal beta. The issue is UBIsoft executives didn't give a crap to allow the Romanian developers to finish the game. All a UBIexec has to do is visit this forum for 10 minutes, laugh at how angst ridden we all are while he pockets another million dollar bonus.

Sadly, the state of the industry for large publishers is narrowing your options. I wish CoD would suddenly go out of vogue so Activision could collapse under its annihilation of diversity in gaming. Instead the Activision model is a beacon to the likes of EA to narrow and dump anything different or interesting.

[Gotmilk]

The trailer graphics is just trailer graphics. You wont see it in the game. Flash 3D molelhill API wont be able to support it. When you look at the screenshot (the one with periscope) you can see how the actual 3D ocean looks like. Its gonna be SH3 and probably there wont be any 3D interiors. I bet that you only see screenshots of interiors overlayed with chatroom and "push of a button" fireing solutions.

[PL_Andrev]

The trailer graphics is just trailer graphics. You wont see it in the game.
Correct - boys, did you forget the "real game footage" from SH5 trailer?
Now it looks like trailer SHO is done by SH5 'photoshopped' engine.
I don't know about you, but I'm waiting for gameplay only.

But... WTF is this??? Guilds? Trade???
http://zapodaj.net/images/363a03187d5e.jpg

[Gotmilk]

But... WTF is this??? Guilds? Trade???


Well haven't you ever heard about the infamous Atlantic Wolves guild. :woot:

This only shows how flawed the game really is. Why do we have to have guilds? Its not a fantasy mmo. Just imagine if EvE online had guilds instead of corporations :rotfl2:

Since guild is a basically a group then why don't they just call it "Wolfpack" :damn:


For me this only shows one thing. The developers do not care. There gonna go with the name "guild" because thats what kiddies know. They are just gonna take SH franchise and slap it on a Farmville simulator. Thats all.

It is business. It is all about the money because UBI will never do a SH6 and they do not want to waste a good name.

This is the final rape action against the franchise and then we will never see it again.
And when you tell your friends that you are Silent Hunter player they will automatically think that you are playing that silly online kiddy game.

[PL_Andrev]

For me this only shows one thing. The developers do not care. There gonna go with the name "guild" because thats what kiddies know. They are just gonna take SH franchise and slap it on a Farmville simulator. Thats all.

From german SHO interview and translation:
target user: 'mature' user, with sim / naval interest...

Mature guild...
:har:

[mookiemookie]

Now that I've had some time to mull this over, I'm getting something of the same sense of disappointment as others have had here. Not over dumbing the game down, or even turning it into a MMO (even though I hate multiplayer games, so I'll probably pass on this).

What gets me is that they're trying to squeeze more money out of the Silent Hunter franchise while leaving SH5 woefully broken. Ubi has shown time and time again that they don't have a commitment to doing this series right. And I'm not talking about design philosophy and how hardcore the realism is, but just having an experience where game breaking bugs are kept to a minimum. We had to beg for a 1.3 patch for SH4 to fix such minor things as being able to create a torpedo solution that actually, you know, worked. You can point the finger at developers for letting these things happen in the first place, but hey, bugs are a fact of life with games. Where I lay the blame is at Ubi's doorstep for not allowing the team to go back and patch out the bugs adequately.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that Ubi is trying to cash in on the Silent Hunter name when they've prematurely abandoned the last outing and shown a worrisome disregard for fans of the series.

[the_tyrant]

I just saw this, and I have to say, I'm not impressed

Is this really going to be a browser based flash game?!

Considering how often flash crashes in chrome, I believe I will not be liking this

flash will also not be supported in metro IE 10


I'm not impressed, at least make it have a client (like world of warcraft)

[McKenzy]

Hell yeah. FB and Twitter. "John "kaleun Killer100" Smith has changed status to "had one 800-toner today!", BigBoy2000 has created a community "Seriouzzzz guyzzz wolfpack school 12, Manitoba", twitter @Dud torpedoes suck!". Jesus. We're doomed.

Gone to run my Kilo aground somewhere in the Pacific to think this all over.:damn:

[Peter Cremer]

If they pay me to play it, I might consider it. They would have to pay me a lot though.:rotfl2:

[Hinrich Schwab]

From german SHO interview and translation:
target user: 'mature' user, with sim / naval interest...

Mature guild...
:har:


"Mature user"?!

The only way Ubi is going to attract the "mature" user it wants is to make a true subsim that works. There is no way around it. Why in the world would I want to play a game that invites the general MMO community (read: immature children and trolls who, by nature, are incapable of teamwork) ? I have the other sims. I don't need this flash based disaster-in-the-making.

[PL_Andrev]

"Mature user"?!

The only way Ubi is going to attract the "mature" user it wants is to make a true subsim that works. There is no way around it. Why in the world would I want to play a game that invites the general MMO community (read: immature children and trolls who, by nature, are incapable of teamwork) ?

It is not completely true - World of Tanks is not real game (not true sim) but very playable MMO game.
The main hint is that "mature" players shall use its brain to win in game vs. trolls.
But SHO will be poor graphics flash game with "pay to play" system...
...for "mature" players...
:har:

[BigBANGtheory]

I'd say just this, the problem with the simulation market is that the buyers cant even agree on whats wrong with the products.

I dunno I'd say Eagle Dynamics has it about right, and to be fair SH5 did somethings very well too.

I think you need a system where players pay to beta test with a good level of communication between the two parties, don't do the development behind closed doors, and don't ignore your community.

If Silent Hunter Online reaches out to the community they would likely get better support IF they listen and ACT on what is being said. The community might say 'we don't want a new F2P, we want you to get SH5 upto scratch first' in which case Ubisoft best have some straight answers forthcoming.

Have you had any thoughts about developing another sim out side of the clutches of Ubisoft ?

[KeldorKatarn]

I'd like to break a little lance here for this game. I'm an old community member but haven't been around in a while, also because no SH has really interested me since SH3 and my job hasn't allowed me to play much anymore but I was a huge fan of SH3 and also modded a little for it.

The reason why I want to break a lance for this game is that I am working for the developer studio that is creating it. I am not part of the team working on it, but I know these guys and see them everyday. I just wanted to emphasise, no matter what you think about Ubisoft and the former Silent Hunters, this one is developed by a totally different developer so please don't punish us for whatever that other studio did in terms of bugs. Also whatever you might think of Ubisoft (I have my own opinion about some of the stuff they pulled too), give these guys a chance. There are quite a few big SH and WW2 sim fans in that team and they're really doing their best.

All I can ask is, just take a look at it and work with the team on improving the Beta and the final product. There will be a live team that will continue to work on the product once it has gone live. This is a huge project and they've never really done anything this size before but they're really putting a lot of sweat and blood into it. All they'd really like you to do is try it out and help them make it the best game it can be.

Just 2 cents from someone who's been on both sides of the fence :)

[Seeadler]

Only an indication for the interface designers at Blue Byte, the inevitable slide-out panel that the game must have necessarily :D

http://s14.directupload.net/images/120505/obysvo82.png

[mookiemookie]

I'd like to break a little lance here for this game. I'm an old community member but haven't been around in a while, also because no SH has really interested me since SH3 and my job hasn't allowed me to play much anymore but I was a huge fan of SH3 and also modded a little for it.

The reason why I want to break a lance for this game is that I am working for the developer studio that is creating it. I am not part of the team working on it, but I know these guys and see them everyday. I just wanted to emphasise, no matter what you think about Ubisoft and the former Silent Hunters, this one is developed by a totally different developer so please don't punish us for whatever that other studio did in terms of bugs. Also whatever you might think of Ubisoft (I have my own opinion about some of the stuff they pulled too), give these guys a chance. There are quite a few big SH and WW2 sim fans in that team and they're really doing their best.

All I can ask is, just take a look at it and work with the team on improving the Beta and the final product. There will be a live team that will continue to work on the product once it has gone live. This is a huge project and they've never really done anything this size before but they're really putting a lot of sweat and blood into it. All they'd really like you to do is try it out and help them make it the best game it can be.

Just 2 cents from someone who's been on both sides of the fence :)

I've applied for a beta key a few days ago, but no word yet. Your post here has convinced me to try and give it a fair shake and be as objective as possible. :up:

[USS Drum]

I applied for beta to see if it is a "good" game.
Now, SH4 was the last GOOD Silent Hunter game, SH5 made you want to throw your computer out the window, and this, I predict is gonna make me want to throw my computer out the window and then do gamer rage in front of the devs.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Only an indication for the interface designers at Blue Byte, the inevitable slide-out panel that the game must have necessarily :D

http://s14.directupload.net/images/120505/obysvo82.png

:haha::haha::har::har::har:

Excellent.

I can see it now. I hear the radioman calling from the SHO radio shack:

Funker: 157 New Radiograms Herr Kaleun! All Spam!!!! :k_confused:

[eviljezza]

I just heard about this, and I feel against it. I have signed up for the Beta, you know I gotta try it before I rate it sort of thing but I have my doubts.

I reckon I'll be sticking with SH5 and the great mods that the Subsim community has made.

[USS Drum]

The Beta page said this: You will receive and email shortly.

Errrrr, I don't think a whole night and STILL not getting it is shortly.

[mookiemookie]

The Beta page said this: You will receive and email shortly.

Errrrr, I don't think a whole night and STILL not getting it is shortly.

I sent a request in at the beginning of last week. Either it's not coming, or they have a different definition of "shortly" than I do. :-?

[PL_Andrev]

The Beta page said this: You will receive and email shortly.

Errrrr, I don't think a whole night and STILL not getting it is shortly.
1. Now is weekend, so they starts work at Monday.
2. You can be not chosen.
3. SHO forum is closed now, so it should be opened to collect beta-testers opinions.
4. It can be pre-release advertisement only.
5. "Shortly" can mean "this month" or f.e. "next month".

[longam]

New screen shot of the (flash based) game, they expect to patch in 2 years to make it playable. Notice the torp circling back toward the sub.

http://www.flashgames247.com/images/800.jpg

[KeldorKatarn]

Bluebyte is not the main developer behind this. It is Sproing Interactive Media located in Vienna.

[KeldorKatarn]

Guys, this isn't anything like farmville, and Flash can do a lot more than you think.

At least give this a chance ok?

[kiwi_2005]

Wheres my beta key! :stare:

[BigBANGtheory]

I just wanted to emphasise, no matter what you think about Ubisoft and the former Silent Hunters, this one is developed by a totally different developer so please don't punish us for whatever that other studio did in terms of bugs. Also whatever you might think of Ubisoft (I have my own opinion about some of the stuff they pulled too), give these guys a chance. There are quite a few big SH and WW2 sim fans in that team and they're really doing their best.


Ubisoft need to make some effort to repair the damage they caused, their reputation is appauling I'd suggest you broach the subject with the wider company and ask them what they can do.

If they refuse to enagage with their customer base there are two things the new dev studio could attempt:

1. Get access to the SH5 code under license and basically patch whatever features (within reason) TDW tells you to address.

2. You have opinions of the crap Ubisoft pulled... air them publically.

Now if Ubisoft wanted to truely change thier fortunes, reverse peoples perception, opinions and make news headlines around world (and in doing so promote SH:Online and gain some revenue).... release the source code for SH5 for non-commercial use or even under license to a few modders. Zero cost to Ubisoft, very little risk to their business, everything to gain particularly as they have other product lines.

[PL_Andrev]

release the source code for SH5 for non-commercial use or even under license to a few modders. Zero cost to Ubisoft, very little risk to their business, everything to gain particularly as they have other product lines.
:har:
Dream again...
SH3 is still not perfect but have the best opinion as a sub simulator.
We have not access to source code of old SH3 - and you want to have access to source code of SH5...
Instead SH5 code they prefer produce SHO (in 'pay to play' business model) to sell again and again its poor products based on well known 'Silent Hunter' mark.
We need other developer with new sub sim product.

[Gotmilk]

for those who have not recieved SHO automatic replay mail. Check your junk folder. It is there. A place where it belongs :yeah:

[KeldorKatarn]

Ubisoft need to make some effort to repair the damage they caused, their reputation is appauling I'd suggest you broach the subject with the wider company and ask them what they can do.

I told you, we are not Ubisoft and we have no communication with the former developer studio. And as a developer you don't ask a publisher for anything. They give you a project, you do the project. You have no influence whatsoever beyond that.

If they refuse to enagage with their customer base there are two things the new dev studio could attempt:

No there is nothing at all that we could do. It is their property. They can do with it whatever they like.

1. Get access to the SH5 code under license and basically patch whatever features (within reason) TDW tells you to address.

So you want us to get Ubisoft to get us access to a source code written by a totally different studio without any knowledge about their code base and then patch the thing for free.... honestly what world are you living in?


2. You have opinions of the crap Ubisoft pulled... air them publically.


Yeah, right. We all might have personal opinions, but they are just that, personal. If we voice them individually as something official, we get fired, and rightly so. You don't go ahead and publicly denounce a business partner. And you also don't do that as a company if you plan to make business with ANYBODY ever again.

Now if Ubisoft wanted to truely change thier fortunes, reverse peoples perception, opinions and make news headlines around world (and in doing so promote SH:Online and gain some revenue).... release the source code for SH5 for non-commercial use or even under license to a few modders. Zero cost to Ubisoft, very little risk to their business, everything to gain particularly as they have other product lines.

Easy solution: if you don't like Ubisoft, don't buy their games. They have no obligation to you to do anything. If you buy their stuff you seem to be happy enough with it to spend money. if you don't buy their stuff there is nothing to complain about.

Seriously people, get real here.
You can be unhappy with Ubisoft all you want. Solution: Don't buy their products. But it is ridiculous to ask a developer studio that had nothing to do with anything concerning Silent Hunter in the past to go and publicly attack Ubisoft or magically fix problems caused by a developer studio that they don't even know.

The new studio got the contract to develop a new Silent Hunter game on a free to play basis. That's what these guys did, and they tried their best to make it in a way that the community will like it. the contract was to make a free to play game, not a desktop game. And there is nothing the studio can do about that. You get told what to do and you try your best to make that concept as fun as possible.

Seriously I don't see your problem here honestly. The game is free to play. The designers made sure that all the pay-to-play moments are convenience only, you don't need to pay anything to play the game successfully, you just spend more time on certain tasks.

So what is the big cry here all about. Yes, Ubisoft didn't do what you liked them to do most.. fine. But that is no reason to call this game crap before you've even seen it. Our studio is not responsible for Ubisoft business decision nor is our game bad just because you think Ubisoft sucks.

You get a game basically for free, some people will have to pay for stuff for it to be bring in money yes, but nobody is forcing anybody to do that. Also again, this is a different studio. The time and money put into this project is in no way whatsoever preventing the other studio from pushing our patches. So why the hatred towards this project before you even tried it?
Theres a lot of people working on this that had nothing to do with anything that you are complaining about here, and no matter how well founded your accusations might be towards Ubisoft, your downtalking this game is just unfair to the new team that had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past.

You have valid concerns, bring them up with Ubisoft. But don't punish a game and a studio for something that their publisher did in the past.
If you don't like this game once it is out you have three options:
- Don't play it... we're fine with that.
- Play it but don't pay for it. We're more than fine with that too.
- Play it and help the live team make it better. Really cool.

If you like it:
- Play it, love it, but don't pay for it. We're fine with that.
- Play it, and pay small amounts here and there. Thank you.
- Play it, love the crap out of it and sink your life insurance money into it. Thanks a lot, we hope you know what you're doing ;)

No seriously... people should get back down to Earth on this one I think.

[Drebbel]

It better be good. Because I forgot how to spell Messerwetzer :DL

[0rpheus]

Seriously I don't see your problem here honestly. The game is free to play. The designers made sure that all the pay-to-play moments are convenience only, you don't need to pay anything to play the game successfully, you just spend more time on certain tasks.

So what is the big cry here all about. Yes, Ubisoft didn't do what you liked them to do most.. fine. But that is no reason to call this game crap before you've even seen it. Our studio is not responsible for Ubisoft business decision nor is our game bad just because you think Ubisoft sucks.


You're right about the latter part (and thanks for chiming in with the 'other side of the fence' viewpoint, I and I'm sure others appreciate it) - it's not your fault that Ubi made such an arse of SH5, then refused to fix it. And of course you work to the brief you're given, that much is expected.

Some of the ire directed at this game is based off fear of free to play - a fear quite justifiable given the 'grind or spend' mentality of some other F2P games. I soon stopped playing WoT after I realised just how long it was going to take me to get anywhere without spending any money; these games are designed to profit from human impatience. As it stands, we have only your word that payment items will be cosmetic only, and while I'm not questioning your honesty, until the game is actually out most people will take what you say regarding this with a pinch of salt - and rightly so, as these things are often changed during development.

Another part of the ire is directed at Flash games - generally seen as less complex, casual games rather than a vehicle for a relatively complicated sims. It remains to be seen whether SHO can be developed effectively under a Flash framework (remember, your 'effectively' and ours may differ), add in other issues such as browser crash and the general drift away from flash-utilisation in most major browsers and you should expect raised eyebrows, not to mention the annoyance many modders will have on discovering that they can't tweak their game the way they want.

Getting the game 'for free' is utterly irrelevant - what matters is getting a game that lives up to the series' history. What happens if I want to use manual targeting, and someone else doesn't? Do they have an unfair advantage? Will there even be manual targeting at all? What about traffic - will there be unrealistically large amounts of ship traffic to accommodate all these Kaleuns? What about time compression? Ship ID manuals?

These are the questions you need to consider answering if you want people here to 'like' this game. Nobody expects you to defend Ubi, nor fix the mess they made with SH5. However, from the outside, right now, it looks like you're taking the SH series and transplanting it into not only one of the worst game 'engines', preventing any modding, but also into a F2P format that will be resoundingly hated by any remotely serious gamer (and subsimmers are fairly serious, let's face it). Of course you're going to get a negative reaction.


Convince us that your game isn't just another Ubi money-grab. Convince us that realism will have its right and proper place alongside historical accuracy. Convince us that, despite the choice of format, this will be a game that knows and respects the history of the Silent Hunter series.

Until you do that, few will even give this game the time of day. I've signed up to the beta in the same way bystanders are drawn to watch awful car accidents - I'm expecting it to be a travesty, if I'm honest - but I will give it a decent & proper chance to change my mind, and I will help the devs improve the game if I feel it possible. But given the history, you can't expect people to be jumping for joy at the news that their favourite franchise has just gone the way of APB and other colossal F2P failures.

I wish your dev crew the best of luck - they're gonna need it. :up:

[Iron Budokan]

Well, even The Elder Scrolls is going to MMO. Looks like Silent Hunter has also decided to join the "Me Too's" and want to dip their biscuit in that MMO gravy while it is still hot.

I must admit a move like this on UBI's part doesn't necessarily surprise me. It seems a natural progression given what was released in SH5 with conversations and (very) minimal role playing characteristics a la crew members with personalities. So an MMO would be the next step, I guess?

I dunno. Just trying to figure out the business decision making mechanics behind this move when there obviously is a very broken SH5 game they have all but abandoned.

I know we should always give people a chance. But I feel after being burned so many times by UBI I probably won't jump on this bandwagon. I like MMOs and play several of them. I LOVE submarine simulations, however, and it would take something away from the immersion aspect to see a player named "TorpNoob" or something similarly moronic in chat.

As I said in a previous post I hope the game does well and people like it, though. Who knows? Anyway, if it does work out and if the members of this site play the game and give it a hearty thumbs up, I will be more than happy to say I was totally and completely wrong. I honestly do hope the game does well, it just doesn't seem to be something that interests me deeply in its current incarnation. :salute:

[Iron Budokan]

Convince us that your game isn't just another Ubi money-grab. Convince us that realism will have its right and proper place alongside historical accuracy. Convince us that, despite the choice of format, this will be a game that knows and respects the history of the Silent Hunter series.



^This. A thousand times this.

Verily, I say unto you, this is my deepest concern as well, given UBI's spotty history with this franchise.

[Sailor Steve]

It better be good. Because I forgot how to spell Messerwetzer :DL
:rotfl2:

Good to see you around, old friend. :sunny:

[Wolfstriked]

SH5 wasn't exactly a sim but a migration to console, it didn't fail and you're expecting the next game to lean toward PC? Heck even the 'online' phase is enough to see that it won't be a sim. But if sim gamers run out and buy it then what the heck no failures or jobs lost and business goes on as usual.

Its free to play though.I doubt any of the realistic simulation players from here will pay any money once they see its not geared towards realism.Its ok with me and I wish them luck.If its good then there is lots of money to be made for them.:salute:

[Rilder]

At least give this a chance ok?

No.

UBI has earned the "Utter Crap Until Proven Otherwise" reputation. They have proven time and again that they care only for making profits and sales and will screw over their customers if it will make them a quick buck.

Its genius of them to use Silent Hunter really, its already a dead series to them so if they can use it as a testbed for this stuff, if it fails then nothing is really lost, if they succeed then they can get lot's of moneys and can go about turning their more profitable series into freemium crapfests, like Assassin's Creed.

[glarus]

I support You! Bravo!!!!
They already deleted mine:rock:

[BigBANGtheory]

I told you, we are not Ubisoft and we have no communication with the former developer studio. And as a developer you don't ask a publisher for anything. They give you a project, you do the project. You have no influence whatsoever beyond that.



No there is nothing at all that we could do. It is their property. They can do with it whatever they like.



So you want us to get Ubisoft to get us access to a source code written by a totally different studio without any knowledge about their code base and then patch the thing for free.... honestly what world are you living in?



Yeah, right. We all might have personal opinions, but they are just that, personal. If we voice them individually as something official, we get fired, and rightly so. You don't go ahead and publicly denounce a business partner. And you also don't do that as a company if you plan to make business with ANYBODY ever again.



Easy solution: if you don't like Ubisoft, don't buy their games. They have no obligation to you to do anything. If you buy their stuff you seem to be happy enough with it to spend money. if you don't buy their stuff there is nothing to complain about.

Seriously people, get real here.
You can be unhappy with Ubisoft all you want. Solution: Don't buy their products. But it is ridiculous to ask a developer studio that had nothing to do with anything concerning Silent Hunter in the past to go and publicly attack Ubisoft or magically fix problems caused by a developer studio that they don't even know.

The new studio got the contract to develop a new Silent Hunter game on a free to play basis. That's what these guys did, and they tried their best to make it in a way that the community will like it. the contract was to make a free to play game, not a desktop game. And there is nothing the studio can do about that. You get told what to do and you try your best to make that concept as fun as possible.

Seriously I don't see your problem here honestly. The game is free to play. The designers made sure that all the pay-to-play moments are convenience only, you don't need to pay anything to play the game successfully, you just spend more time on certain tasks.

So what is the big cry here all about. Yes, Ubisoft didn't do what you liked them to do most.. fine. But that is no reason to call this game crap before you've even seen it. Our studio is not responsible for Ubisoft business decision nor is our game bad just because you think Ubisoft sucks.

You get a game basically for free, some people will have to pay for stuff for it to be bring in money yes, but nobody is forcing anybody to do that. Also again, this is a different studio. The time and money put into this project is in no way whatsoever preventing the other studio from pushing our patches. So why the hatred towards this project before you even tried it?
Theres a lot of people working on this that had nothing to do with anything that you are complaining about here, and no matter how well founded your accusations might be towards Ubisoft, your downtalking this game is just unfair to the new team that had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past.

You have valid concerns, bring them up with Ubisoft. But don't punish a game and a studio for something that their publisher did in the past.
If you don't like this game once it is out you have three options:
- Don't play it... we're fine with that.
- Play it but don't pay for it. We're more than fine with that too.
- Play it and help the live team make it better. Really cool.

If you like it:
- Play it, love it, but don't pay for it. We're fine with that.
- Play it, and pay small amounts here and there. Thank you.
- Play it, love the crap out of it and sink your life insurance money into it. Thanks a lot, we hope you know what you're doing ;)

No seriously... people should get back down to Earth on this one I think.

You are publishing a game through Ubisoft which basically shat all over its customer base and you expect the sub sim fans to just wipe the slate clean because its a different bunch of guys developing the game? :doh:

No seriously get real yourself.

You signed a doomed contract my friend. Its like going to Japan and Ukraine with a new nuclear concept saying 'its a totally different team this time, whats your problem?'

Even the idea is offensive to some here, read it yourself.

I bear the new team no I'll will, but as Orpheus said 'best of luck - they're gonna need it'. The trust with the Silent Hunter series has been broken and that my friend is a fact.

[glarus]

I suggest we unload all our rage on their Facebook page. Let them know what we think about this...:down:

EDIT: I left my comments, wonder how long it'll take them to delete them.
They already deleted mine:rock:

[KeldorKatarn]

Guys, you should really learn the difference between publishers and developers. Ubisoft is just paying for this, they are not developing it.

[Dowly]

Convince us that your game isn't just another Ubi money-grab. Convince us that realism will have its right and proper place alongside historical accuracy. Convince us that, despite the choice of format, this will be a game that knows and respects the history of the Silent Hunter series.

Couldn't have said it better. :up:

[KeldorKatarn]

You are publishing a game through Ubisoft which basically shat all over its customer base and you expect the sub sim fans to just wipe the slate clean because its a different bunch of guys developing the game? :doh:

No seriously get real yourself.

Oh common. WE don't publish silent Hunter through Ubisoft, they let us develop it. We don't own it, they do.

Jesus, people. I understand certain sentiments here but if you make accusations like this, first get your facts right on how the industry works. Ubisoft own the franchise and they contract developer studios. This is one of the biggest projects that Ubisoft gave away the last year. Do you honestly expect a studio to turn down such a huge offer?


As for the comments "Prove to us that this game is worth it". Well, that's what the beta is for. I haven't played it but I can say it is far from being casual. it is much too complex for that. I don't know how realistic the combat is yet, as mentioned I haven't played it myself, just watched our QA doing it, but I can only encourage you to try it and then voice your opinions. Ubisoft does not target the casual audience with this, because they know very well that no Farmville audience in this world will ever tough something this complex, no matter how much you dumb it down.

There may be stuff in there to make it more simple to let people get into the game more quickly, but that is necessary in this kind of product, otherwise you don't get a big enough player base (and no, big enough in this case doesn't mean mainstream, this was never intended to be mainstream, it is intended for the SH crowd). if you don't agree with the complexity or other parts, voice your opinions. You may think of free to play whatever you like, but let me tell you this. You have more power here than you think. SH5 you bought and after that you had no more say in it.

This game you don't buy. Ubisoft needs continuous money flow, even if in small amounts per player or big amounts of very few players, doesn't matter. And they also need a lot of people haveing fun with it without ever spending a dime. because the people willing to pay for it won't pay a dime either if there's nobody around to play WITH. And since this is not targeted at mainstream, ubisoft NEEDS this to appeal to you guys, otherwise they'll have sunk money 5000m deep in the atlantic ocean.

So give it a chance, check it out, then tell the team what's good and what's crap. Ubisoft needs this to be a success so they will have to listen this time.

You may think Free-To-Play is just a big money grab... and it is... potentially, and that's completely alright, but compared to legacy methods of selling products, F2P is a huge risk. because if the game doesn't take off, you'll have flushed a huge investment down the toilet. And in case of a company like Ubisoft that hurts, because everybody knows them and sees that happening. That's bad.

So I know this isn't what you wanted, but on the other hand, you never had so much power over a SH game before. Think about it.

Edit: Also one more thing. I'm not the boss of my company. I'm one single developer not even working on the SH team. So I don't speak officially for anyone. I'm just a guy who happens to work for the same company and thought I'd offer some insights from the other side of the fence since I'm just a big a SH fan as you all here. I have tons of WW2 books in my shelf and a lot of them about the Battle of the Atlantic, I ate up SH3 like crazy, trying most of the great mods being pumped out here and did a few myself. Before joining the company and until recenly I also was the co-producer of a free "for fans by fans" game calles Wing Commander Saga, recently released on www.wcsaga.com, that I worked on for 5 years for free, just so that the fans could have a fun space sim game again because EA didn't want to make them anymore. So you see I'm just a big a fan and crazy gamer as you are.
Don't beat me over the head for Ubisoft or even for what my boss decides to accept in terms of a contract or not (but honestly, would YOU have said no if Ubisoft had offered you to make the next SH and you are a fan of the series? REALLY?) I just came here because I know the guys working on this and that they are really trying hard to make it the best game possible. They are really nervious that you might not like it because it is really such a new approach, but they are pumping a lot of work into it, and honestly, the only thing these guys are hoping for right now is for you to give it a chance and then tell them what is good and what isn't, so they can continue working on making this a really good SH game.
That's all I was trying to do. Sorry if I offended anybody in the process. I didn't want to pour gasoline into the fire...

[Sailor Steve]

A convenient excuse. In SH5 the developers did what the publisher told them to. It's not Ubi Romania's fault SH5 is a dog. Are you saying it's different this time?

I don't care if this is good or not - it's not my kind of game. That said, UBI has developed a reputation for shooting themselves in the foot and blaming everyone else for the catastrophe, everyone but themselves.

[Rilder]

Guys, you should really learn the difference between publishers and developers. Ubisoft is just paying for this, they are not developing it.

Alright, the developers should quit and reform as an independent developer, indie games are doing quite well these days. If they don't want to be considered part of Ubisoft then break all ties with them.

[Sonarman]

A convenient excuse. In SH5 the developers did what the publisher told them to. It's not Ubi Romania's fault SH5 is a dog. Are you saying it's different this time?



Even Dan himself took issue with that assessment.


Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy.

Please stop trying to create a war / antagonism between modders and devs, we need each other.

[bigboywooly]

Have played many alleged F2P games on FB
I say alleged cos they all start free but if you want to progress then you gotta pay.
Of course it can be done free but soooo much harder.
Developers exploit the weakness of us punters that want the easy route by forcing purchases down your throat.
Flash games on sites such as FB are basically a time filler. If I want to play SH will fire up SH3 and play how was meant to be played.
Have signed up for the beta but no matter how good it is I wont be parting with any cash.
And if noone else does then Ubi loses out.
Meh

[Dowly]

There may be stuff in there to make it more simple to let people get into the game more quickly[...]

And that is, imho, something that will result in a lot of flak from the SH fans.
We are simmers, we like complex things. What we don't like is someone holding
our hand and not letting us learn something complex on our own.

But, I will be trying out the game if I get a beta key. If I have fun playing it,
I'll keep playing it. :yep:

[KeldorKatarn]

But, I will be trying out the game if I get a beta key. If I have fun playing it, I'll keep playing it. :yep:

That's all the guys working on it can ask :up:

[0rpheus]

So I know this isn't what you wanted, but on the other hand, you never had so much power over a SH game before. Think about it.

I'm playing through WCSaga at the moment, grats on a fine job. :up:

But you're not listening. You're surprised at the reaction and suggest that any of us would've jumped at the chance to develop a new SH game and in that respect you're right. We should also be grateful that a new submarine game is being made at all, no matter the format - because it doesn't happen often.

But to say we have more control than ever is a terribly erroneous statement. We're being given access to a beta, in which we will no doubt make suggestions, some of which will probably end up in the game. But since the game will be tied to a browser, that makes it impossible to mod - and for most of us, it's the mods that make the games playable, because in all cases, even SH3, they were released buggy and flawed.

Now we no longer have that option for SHO, and we are reliant on your people to keep the game up to scratch. Given Ubi and their other teams couldn't manage to fix SH5, the precedent is already set, and the onus is on your team to prove they can do otherwise. Don't expect anyone to hold their breath - things could be different with your guys, they may well be - but until we actually see it, you'll forgive us for being sceptical. If anything, we've never had less control over an SH game before.

And I bet the dev team is nervous, probably because they're starting to realise that if they please the casuals, they'll alienate the simmers, and vice versa, and end up with a flop that pleases neither camp. Really the fault lies with UBI (as usual); whoever thought sim-heads would take well to a browser based game is a retard of the highest (lowest?) calibre, but your boss & the team must have anticipated this reaction.

They could pull a rabbit out of the hat; certainly WCSaga is excellent, and that alone gives me a bit more hope - but its up to your boys to overcome the damage Ubi has done.

I hope they manage it. I also hope they come here and make use of the vast resources of submarine info at the site, as that alone would go a long way to making people feel better about the game.

[BigBANGtheory]

I didn't want to pour gasoline into the fire...

No its ok dude, I'm not here to give you a bad time I've applied for the beta and will try to keep an open mind. I've said what needed to be said and thats enough.

SH5 is kind of a sore wound, and I'm sorry you've inherited some of the baggage which clearly isn't your fault but it is a factor like it or not.

I guess when all is said and done if you can make a superior game to SH3,4 & 5 then that should stand on its own merits.

[Madox58]

I've played many Beta test Games over the years.
Last one was SWTOR.
Played the hell out of it Beta testing.
:yep:

Once it went live? The price was to high so I never bought into it.
It'll be the same with SHO.
Once they stick that hand out for cash?
I'm outta there like puss from a squeezed pimple!
:haha:

3 SH versions in a row that I paid to much for and never got satisfaction give me good reason.

[Karasunx]

I do have to say the concept art is gorgeous. I think the game has a chance to be fun. Not a simulation in any sense of the word, but fun in a World of Tanks kind of way. At least from what I've read and seen, that's what it most reminds me of.

[Gotmilk]

I still think that the game is gonna be a crap. Don't take this wrong. I think that new team and developers might actually do a very good job and their motivations seems int place but i am afraid that some retard at UBI will still have some kind of a creative control over the game and it will be only a matter of time when someone decides to change better user experience for money.

Even if you want to do a good game the UBI might have other plans and you have to listen to them.

For your sake i hope that the game will be huge success. I will try the game and give my best to love it.

[PL_Andrev]

It will be crap.
The main power of SH series is modding issues - from scenarios and campaigns to new ship models and graphics effects.
At SHO all these issues will be lock.

[Trevally.]

So give it a chance, check it out, then tell the team what's good and what's crap.

Just signed up - looking forward to trying it:up:


Ubisoft needs this to be a success so they will have to listen this time.

:har: :D ;)

[bigboywooly]

It will be crap.
The main power of SH series is modding issues - from scenarios and campaigns to new ship models and graphics effects.
At SHO all these issues will be lock.

The game wouldnt need so much modding if was released in a decent state to start with
All we can hope is this one is

[Jimbuna]

The game wouldnt need so much modding if was released in a decent state to start with
All we can hope is this one is

Aye http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Hitman]

As far as I'm concerned, SHO is a further step into alienating the users from what they buy and like, something that started with the SH5 DRM and ends up with the big brother "cloud computing". As a free and liberal man, that's a tendency I don't like or approve, so I kept my fingers out of SH5 and will be doing the same with SHO. Which, considering the huge amount of stuff that is going on with SH3/4 still as of today and what has already been done, should satisfy my love for WW2 subsims even for the rest of my life, if necessary.

I wish UBI good luck, though, as anything that can promote and draw a bigger community to subsimming will be always welcomed. But that business model will certainly not find a customer in me.

My 2 cents

[Sonarman]

Interestingly SH Online may well appear at retail as well, if we read between the lines of this article (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-05-04-why-ubisoft-wont-leave-retail-behind-in-the-digital-gold-rush?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily)

[bigboywooly]

And it worked. In Germany the €15 pack made sure Settlers Online was the first ever free-to-play game to come top in the Amazon.de charts.

Ummmm spending 15 euros on a pack makes it free to play how ???

[Hinrich Schwab]

Spending money on a free-to-play game is an oxymoron. Creating a free-to-play game where one must spend money to have a reasonable experience is a con, plain and simple.

[Julhelm]

Free to play means you can download it and play without having to pay anything. Complaining that microtransactions somehow negate this is ridiculous. It's not like you download it and anyone forces you to pay money.

[Nippelspanner]

Free to play means you can download it and play without having to pay anything. Complaining that microtransactions somehow negate this is ridiculous. It's not like you download it and anyone forces you to pay money.

Those games force you indirectly. If you dont pay and upgrade your stuff, you wont have much fun with this game, nor success.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Complaining that microtransactions somehow negate this is ridiculous. It's not like you download it and anyone forces you to pay money.

So to you, any form of customer complaint over a business model of dubious integrity is ridiculous. We already had a similar discussion in the other thread. I won't argue this further as it is obvious from the other conversation that you adamantly believe that the businesses are "right" and the consumers are "wrong". We are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[drEaPer]

Those games force you indirectly. If you dont pay and upgrade your stuff, you wont have much fun with this game, nor success.

Some points to think about for F2P games:

-Fun is subject to perception. One finds grinding for the paycontent fun, others dont.

-F2P states that you can play the free content. It does not state that you can play the pay content.

-Not spending money on a F2P game means no commitment and no involvement (except your time) thus there is no justification for demands. Its an offer you simply can reject. As soon as you spend money, you also value the work of the creators.

-F2P was generally accepted by gamers before it was called F2P, it was called "demo". The purpose of a demo was to get an impression and to decide if you want to buy the game. Of course Demos featured the more attractive stuff, and were visually appealing to lure you to buy the main game. F2P does the same. As long as the required total investment into the game (excluding bonus stuff that is not mandatory, which equals classic DLC or addons) does not exceed the amount of money a comparable game bought in retail store costs, there is no difference except in the way the content is brougth to you / unlocked.

-A true F2P without payment is only possible, if someone donates the required funds for development. Example: "Crowd Funding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_funding)"

[W_clear]

Hello W_clear :salute:

Hi:)

[P_Funk]

-Fun is subject to perception. One finds grinding for the paycontent fun, others dont.
Grinding is one thing, but they scale the unlock scale usually to a ridiculous level. Take the new Tribles: Ascend game that just came out in a F2P format. Its pretty good on that level in that you can only buy unlocks of things you can grind for. Nothing is technically barred from free to players. However with 10 classes and single weapon unlocks being 100 000k experience and with an average F2P player gaining something in the range of 500 to 1000 experience per round if he isn't totally dominating anybody (like the guys who've unlocked stuff for real money) it will take a LOOOOONG time to unlock even a weapon and in that game there are multi stage unlocks for everything so basically you can either play one class and get all the stuff for it OR buy it.

Its not that rosey. Long term if you find yourself actually grinding for these weapons you might as well buy the freaking thing, but you can't buy the game, you can only pay to unlock stuff and as they add more stuff.... well. Overtime you may end up spending more than on a standard FPS.

Fact is that they turn the grind into such a hopeless endeavor that its designed to make you pay once you start to care. You try to get it, you can't get it without burning another 30 hours or something of play at least and if you make 8 bucks an hour at least well... not a very good waste of your time is it?

The grind in F2P is not about fun. Grinds are only subjectively fun in set subscription MMOs since they are the bulk of content. F2P turns the grind into the incentive to buy since the grind is basically hopeless, but serves only to create an attachment to the objective.

[drEaPer]

Thats the challenge of adressing the target audience in the right manner.
Just compare asian games with western games. Thats why this does not make F2P a bad concept by itself just for being F2P.

Something that comes to my mind: When I played Dungeons & Dragons Online, it had a fine approach that seemed fair and worked well.

-Some of the dungeons you could enter with your group were free. Alot others were paycontent. Once payed, you could play them as much as you wanted.

-The difficulty of the dungeons was perfectly fine for a standard party. It was a bit of a challenge, yet very do-able.

-If you screwed up, you could instantly buy health potions of mana potions in the shop, to get you out of hopeless situations.

-> Some content is buyable that is unlocked permanently and can be enjoyed just like a standard game. Some content is convinience only, that I only needed if I was actually failing the game. Without those added "pay consumables" I would have had to restart the dungeon.

For me, it was a fair and well thought out approach of making money, instead of charging subscription fees (online server based games always have running costs). I actually stopped my subscription, switched the game to the F2P mode, payed like 50 bucks for all the dungeons and basically owned the content for the lifetime of the game.
If I had kept the subscription based access, my costs for playing the game would have exceeded that sum by far until now.


If there is no incentive to spend money, the game would not be available to you at all, since there would be no return of investment or money to cover the costs for server, traffic, live/support teams etc.

Its a thin line where one thinks it starts being a "rip off" or a "fair approach". Though its not F2P by itself that is the problem.

[Gandalfi2005]

Maybe something for the office, when im bored like today :yawn:

[Sailor Steve]

Thats the challenge of adressing the target audience in the right manner.
So the bottom line seems to be that if you want to play the game it's free. If, on the other hand, you want to play it properly and enjoy it to the fullest, you'll have to pay. The idea seems to be that you get people to play by offering the incomplete, unfinishable game to the public in the sure knowledge that a certain number will become addicted and pay the price just so they can keep playing.

Sounds like a scam to me. No, more like a drug dealer.

A long time ago there was a cartoon strip called The Wizard Of Id. One of the characters once paraphrased Abraham Lincoln, saying "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and that's enough for a good lawyer to make a living."

[Julhelm]

So to you, any form of customer complaint over a business model of dubious integrity is ridiculous. We already had a similar discussion in the other thread. I won't argue this further as it is obvious from the other conversation that you adamantly believe that the businesses are "right" and the consumers are "wrong". We are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
No I don't believe that at all, but you're arguing from an emotionally reactionary position where you assume you as a customer have all these rights and ignore the fact that you sign away all that once you accept the EULA. Notice how they all state "You as the end user accept this software as-is"? Legally the publisher has no obligation whatsoever to support the product unless there is some incentive for them to do so, such as maintaining a faithful community. But SH5 flopped so they pulled the plug since it wasn't successful. You're fighting windmills here by stating these ridiculous ultimatums that UBI fix SH5 for free etc etc. If there was actually any legal ground for your argument, we would have seen a lot more lawsuits from customers against publishers over broken games that were sold and never fixed.

F2P is actually a less dubious business model since at least you don't have to pay just to find out the product is broken. And even if you don't pay, enough people will to give the publisher an incentive to fix the product. And if you don't like it, you won't have lost anything other than time.

As for complaining about grinding:

Subscription-based games do the exact same thing, unsurprisingly, since they rely on keeping players occupied for substantial periods to generate income. The only real difference is that F2P in its proper form has microtransactions instead of subscription. Sure, they are set up so as to get users to either pay a subscription or purchase items, but comparing this to dealing drugs is ridiculous: Of course the games will be set up to turn a profit - why else would they be made in the first place?

Now, if we're talking pay to win, that's a different kettle of fish, but free to play doesn't necessarily have to be pay to win.

[mookiemookie]

Legally the publisher has no obligation whatsoever to support the product unless there is some incentive for them to do so, such as maintaining a faithful community. But SH5 flopped so they pulled the plug since it wasn't successful.

Chicken and egg argument. Arguably, if Ubi had put out a more polished product, it would have been more successful. Instead, we're left with both sides pointing the finger at each other.

[Jimbuna]

Maybe something for the office, when im bored like today :yawn:

At best.....I suspect :hmmm:

[Julhelm]

Chicken and egg argument. Arguably, if Ubi had put out a more polished product, it would have been more successful. Instead, we're left with both sides pointing the finger at each other.
Sure, but they own the franchise so that makes them the chicken. The most important thing is getting the game out on a deadline that has been decided 2 years in advance. Delaying the game to polish it only works if you are Valve.