The WIA numbers that the military tries to hide

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-829390,00.html

The way traumatised soldiers get excluded from statistics on own wounded soldiers, always has made me very. That was the case in discussion we had on the board in 2003 and 2004, and it is still the same today. DMMC - damn male macho cult. I had my confrontation with what violence-induced traumatisation can mean to a human, for some months I was engaged long time ago with a project caring for torture victims from the Balkans, and did a lot of additional learning search back then, which also meant PTS syndrome caused by war. The US military, and others, may have increased efforts to tackle PTS and combat fatigue, but to really tackle it, it needs wider, more public recognition and a massive change to this damn male macho cult dominating the military. In principle we need a change of military culture itself.

To leave behind those who one has sent into war, is a complete moral failure, and is despicable.

That we tell soldiers lies and opush false ideals based on forged images of relaities in order to motivate them,, doe snot help either. I prefer to prepare them for what they are up to by telling them straight and frankly what they are up for, and what it is about. The BS-talking about Afghanistan has abused the idealism and naivety of so many young people who went there with the best intentions indeed - it makes me sick. It is abuse indeed, abuse of the own soldiers. Politicians should hang for that.

[Catfish]

Also this, in former times they used to call it shell shock, bluntly, now it's post-traumatic depression.
Just does not get better by using Orwell's doublespeak:
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/36/36804/1.html
Medicaments or drugs, dexedrine is still being used to keep soldiers awake :o

[Schroeder]

Also this, in former times they used to call it shell shock, bluntly, now it's post-traumatic depression.

I believe it's called post traumatic stress disorder.:hmmm:

[August]

This thread = troll bait.

[Oberon]

:hmmm:

This is a very touchy subject and this thread will most likely derail very quickly.

Furthermore, since I have not been in combat, nor witnessed it outside of a television or computer screen I am not particularly qualified to discuss this outside of speculation, which due to the very nature of this subject, is not possible to do with any degree of accuracy.

[Jimbuna]

I believe it's called post traumatic stress disorder.:hmmm:

Most commonly used term in the UK.

[Skybird]

This thread = troll bait.
Don't worry, nobody will bite you here.

[August]

Don't worry, nobody will bite you here.

No but a bunch of people who have never served themselves opining on what the attitudes of those who do serve should be isn't all that interesting either.

That "damn male macho cult" is what wins wars and always has.

[Catfish]

The article just says that the soldier of today stays longer in the military and active action than ever before, and that this has consequences.
But you are right, to even touch this is certainly most unpopular in a macho cult :-?

[soopaman2]

Not so much trollbait.

But a good diving board for discussion.

The recent wars of the elite touched me personally. I have a cousin I do not know anymore, who never comes out his house except for food.

He was commited (short term, hes not super freaking crazy) after I told his father what he told me with tears coming out his eyes.

I am afraid I can't turn it off. He used to be the guy who pulled me off of people as teenagers, now I am afraid to drink with him.

4 tours, the 4th one was forced after he was the only survivor of a vehicle hit by an IED. He wasn't physically injured enough to come home, despite him breaking down when being asked about it. He was shuttled right back out there.

You see, he was driving (he admits he saw a lump in the road, and that is what kills him), and blames himself. No talking to will ever get it out his head. He is a free man today, but still lives with his experiences.

Go on call him weak. But you did not know him.

This will be even more of a problem in days to come as our boys come home. Discounting what they (edit: us) did to normal people in the name of oil and bragging rights will cripple the entire generation.


So maybe you understand my bitterness towards the MIC at times, and why this is not trollbait, but something we should discuss, if we want to continue to have long protracted wars that last a decade plus.

[RickC Sniper]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-829390,00.html

The US military, and others, may have increased efforts to tackle PTS and combat fatigue, but to really tackle it, it needs wider, more public recognition and a massive change to this damn male macho cult dominating the military. In principle we need a change of military culture itself.



Nothing wrong with treating illnesses. But I was wondering just what kind of military culture they have in mind. If it is the culture itself that creates an effective war machine, how do you change it yet still be effective at war?

Perhaps the politicians would like soldiers to be as effective at their trade as politicians are at theirs. :06:

[Skybird]

No but a bunch of people who have never served themselves opining on what the attitudes of those who do serve should be isn't all that interesting either.

That "damn male macho cult" is what wins wars and always has.

Thanks for perfectly illustrating the point I made. Saved me a lot of time. :yeah:

[kranz]

This thread = troll bait.
everyone knows that it was the oil wells' fault. :know:

[mookiemookie]

On a related note, I found this photo essay of Scott Ostrom to be pretty powerful stuff.

After serving four years as a reconnaissance man and deploying twice to Iraq, Brian Scott Ostrom, 27, returned home to the U.S. with a severe case of post-traumatic stress disorder. “The most important part of my life already happened. The most devastating. The chance to come home in a box. Nothing is ever going to compare to what I’ve done, so I’m struggling to be at peace with that,”

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2012/01/05/captured-welcome-home-the-story-of-scott-ostrom/5172/

[August]

Thanks for perfectly illustrating the point I made. Saved me a lot of time. :yeah:

So your point was that you don't really know what you're talking about? Ok... :hmmm:

[August]

everyone knows that it was the oil wells' fault. :know:


I'm still waiting for my barrel of oil from that whole "Blood for Oil" thing back in the 1990's. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

On topic and debated with respect and a modicum of class.....as always http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9425/praydl5rp5.gif

[Schroeder]

N
Go on call him weak. But you did not know him.

And here's the problem with all mental illnesses. If you have a limb wrapped in bandages everyone will agree that you're injured but if it's "just in your head" people will just tell you that you are weak and you should "just pull yourself togehther".:damn:

[soopaman2]

And here's the problem with all mental illnesses. If you have a limb wrapped in bandages everyone will agree that you're injured but if it's "just in your head" people will just tell you that you are weak and you should "just pull yourself togehther".:damn:

Yes!

Good luck getting that through.

I think military psychs were told to ignore crying and shaking.
Sad thing is some would even call him a traitor, because he didn't man up.:06:

(he did man up, he broke when he got home)

Sure he has the VA, but you are better off with nurse Ratchet. Electroing you because she hated you.

Not being ignored and defunded. Ooops

(the sick vets deserve the most attention)

[Tribesman]

So your point was that you don't really know what you're talking about? Ok.
The point was he had a good point and you had just proved the validity of parts of his point very well.

I'm still waiting for my barrel of oil from that whole "Blood for Oil" thing back in the 1990's
Are you Shell?
Actually you regularly prove his finishing point when it comes to that disaster of a conflict.

But a good diving board for discussion
Probably not, the point hits too close to home for some to face.
It does have potential though.
If you cross the water to the UK and hit one of their past conflicts that is back in the news recently you could explore why the Brits government are so touchy about their vets from the Falklands?
Seriously you have disabled vets climbing the welsh mountains to raise money to campaign for the government to do something (even acknowledge the existance of) for the mentally damaged ex servicemen from that conflict.

[CaptainHaplo]

ok... Brace yourselves - the Captain is going on a tirade.

Yes, the military instills the "macho man" mentality - it IS how wars are won. That's the job of the military by the way - WIN. They do it the best way they can...

Yes - our injured vets - whether physically or mentally injured - need to be given the best of care - what they get now is a disgrace in many cases.

But blaming the military is pointing blame at the wrong target.... The military fights under the rules it is given by the politicians. Everything from the ROE to the available forces are ultimately POLITICAL decisions.

I can list just about every US "conflict" from Korea to present and show how it was an utter failure due to the lack of political will to actually fight it as a WAR!

The US has the ability to pretty much flatten 95% of the countries individually out there without real effort. Alliances happen for reasons. But so far, we have not faced an alliance of nations since WW2. Instead we deal with piss ant regimes that we COULD take out without much risk, yet we don't for fear of "world opinion". Screw opinion - WAR is us or them - and military forces around the world have marching orders from politicians who are more concerned about how the french will whine than they are about winning the conflict.

Iraq? Afghanistan? The islamic terrorist problem in Pakistan? All 3 could be solved in less than 2 months. But the politicians fear to take the actions necessary.

And so military forces around the world send people off to get screwed up, physically and mentally ......

[soopaman2]

Seriously you have disabled vets climbing the welsh mountains to raise money to campaign for the government to do something (even acknowledge the existance of) for the mentally damaged ex servicemen from that conflict.

What upsets me, and many other family members is (I am sure it is the same in most countries) is that the volunteer military expects better.

At one point we saw to it our vets got everything they needed , within reason of course.
No Private, you cannot have a yacht, and a private Island.:haha:

Sure I have concern for my family, but he will heal, he was always stronger than most of us.:yeah:

But I am concerned for his comrades, of all branches,.

America will have a large amount of troops coming home, away from all they knew for awhile.

Alot of troops needing civilian jobs amongst our already silly unemployment.

Alot of mental health money going towards a dumb aircraft engine.

But ya know, boeing does give alot to PACS.:x

And that is really what it is about. I bet there would be alot less "American Foreign Adventures" if our congress didn't go out of its way to give patronage towards them.

It all bubbles down to this.
America needs a culture shift.
It really seems like in recent years we have been trying to justify all the money we spent (for non use) during the cold war.

How about this?

Blatant forum rule breaking coming....


*&^$ the middle east. Let them off each other.
%^&* Israel, let the best man win.

Have fun with your Muzzy problem Europe, Soop wants nothing of it. (we got Mexicans and lax laws, be happy)

Osama went off the back of a ship, I am done. I am satisfied. Lets spend the money we give to Pakis, Afghanis, and Iraquis, who would love to cook us on a stake, to help vets. All of them, from all wars.

The treatment our congress has given to the VA in recent years is vile.:nope::damn:

[MH]

Wow what a melodrama......a Turkish movie.
if any army tries to swipe under carpet(which i'm not sure it does)the stress disorders due to military service it is mistake.
I'm also pretty sure that vast majority of US army vets will do just great in their lives....certainly far from becoming some violent or traumatised psychos.

As it seems here... the life may be very traumatic for some.
In military service the magnitudes are much different.

[soopaman2]

Wow what a melodrama......a Turkish movie.
if any army tries to swipe under carpet(which i'm not sure it does)the stress disorders due to military service it is mistake.
I'm also pretty sure that vast majority of US army vets will do just great in their lives....certainly far from becoming some violent or traumatised psychos.

As it seems here... the life may be very traumatic for some.
In military service the magnitudes are much different.

So you are mocking me?

Perhaps you are unaware of the neglect given to sick military members. Due to defunding of services.

Or you are mocking me and my family.

Anymously on a forum. I can tell you where to put the Turkish melodrama, but I want to avoid saying enough to get banned or chastized.

(edit: He feels banished to a trailer. he shakes, no faking, he wants to work but cannot, because he is messed up, not violent, but really sad. loud noises mess with him, and he is much less agressive then he used to be Turkish movie, was freaking harsh bro,
pardon me for trying to relay real life experience)

[August]

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-32

Based on VA data GAO obtained and summarized, GAO found that the amount of funding VA provided for intramural PTSD research increased from $9.9 million in fiscal year 2005 to $24.5 million in fiscal year 2009. From fiscal year 2005 through fiscal year 2009, intramural PTSD research funding ranged from 2.5 percent to 4.8 percent of VA's medical and prosthetic research appropriation. In addition, the number of PTSD research studies VA funded through the Merit Review Program and the Cooperative Studies Program (CSP)--VA's two primary funding mechanisms in its intramural research program--increased from 47 in fiscal year 2005 to 96 in fiscal year 2009. According to VA officials, intramural research proposals, including those on PTSD, are funded primarily according to scientific merit in both the Merit Review Program and CSP.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/daily-reports/2010/july/10/obama-and-veterans-ptsd-benefits.aspx
"Perhaps one of five of the 2 million Iraq and Afghanistan veterans since 2001 has PTSD, mental health experts estimate. Veterans advocates say the numbers are higher. ***8230; But today, under new filing rules, compensation will be granted if veterans can simply show that they were in a war zone and that their job was consistent with the events said to be causing their health problems. Proof of being under fire or seeing violent death, for example, will not be needed, a boon to women in the military. Not assigned to combat roles in Iraq or Afghanistan, they still often are subjected to traumatic experiences in their duties, from military policing to helicopter piloting" (Kavanaugh, 7/11).


Those that say the US Government ignores the problem of Veteran PTSD are full of it.

[MH]

Perhaps you are unaware of the neglect given to sick military members. Due to defunding of services.
.

He was commited (short term, hes not super freaking crazy) after I told his father what he told me with tears coming out his eyes.

I am afraid I can't turn it off. He used to be the guy who pulled me off of people as teenagers, now I am afraid to drink with him.

4 tours, the 4th one was forced after he was the only survivor of a vehicle hit by an IED. He wasn't physically injured enough to come home, despite him breaking down when being asked about it. He was shuttled right back out there.

You see, he was driving (he admits he saw a lump in the road, and that is what kills him), and blames himself. No talking to will ever get it out his head. He is a free man today, but still lives with his experiences.

Go on call him weak. But you did not know him.



Sorry for your cousin and what happened to him but....did he get the treatment he deserves?

From what i know about army...it can be sometimes very hardlined in acknowledging some issues as a direct couse of military service not necessarily due to not caring about its vets.


.................

[Tribesman]

Soopa
What upsets me, and many other family members is (I am sure it is the same in most countries) is that the volunteer military expects better.

But a look at the history of pretty much any country wold suggest that you shouldn't expect that.


Haplo
But blaming the military is pointing blame at the wrong target....
99.9% correct.

I can list just about every US "conflict" from Korea to present and show how it was an utter failure due to the lack of political will to actually fight it as a WAR!

Sorry but if you link that to the following lines then the big two have to be excluded as the whole reason behind the failure was because of the inability to militarily take on the "alliance" behind those "piss ant" countries.
Nice little dig at the French though, are you still upset that they said Iraq part deux was a really really dumb idea?

[Sailor Steve]

That "damn male macho cult" is what wins wars and always has.
It could also be argued that the "damn male macho cult" is what causes wars and always has. If everybody refused to go the politicians would have to fight themselves. Of course that would require that everybody would have to refuse to go, and there are always going be some somewhere who want to fight, so the DMMC wins out, and everybody has to fight or be destroyed. Sucks, but testosterone is the enemy of the world. :sunny:

[soopaman2]

Sorry for your cousin and what happened to him but....did he get the treatment he deserves?


He is not the same.
I do not think you were attacking me personally. I still remember when he nearly kicked some guys butt in a bar for hitting on my future wife (then beat him up later for making fun of my limp) , now he won't leave the house. He just wants to isolate.

Won't hurt no one. But will never enjoy companionship, he won't even show up for Thanksgiving or Christmas, and my house is the place to be.

I know the original story was sopping with drama. But those sad stories do exist in real life. It is not always a piece of propaganda. Which pieces like this are always accused of, which I took from your original post.

So for what it is worth, sorry if I was harsh.

I was always too passionate about things.

But I will repeat, stories like this will be heard alot, and even more violent ones ahead if these guys return to civilian life unemployed. Just sayin':salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Those that say the US Government ignores the problem of Veteran PTSD are full of it.
:yep:

I've heard horror stories told about other places, but I can get pretty much anything I need. My doctor asked me if I wanted to talk to somebody, and when I was ready they scheduled me to see a VA therapist. I got in within the week and was told I could stay as long as I wanted, join a group or stick with private consultation and quit when I wanted.

I don't know about other VA centers, but Salt Lake's is first rate. :rock:

[RickC Sniper]

He is not the same.


Won't hurt no one. But will never enjoy companionship, he won't even show up for Thanksgiving or Christmas, and my house is the place to be.




Rally your family and together convince him to seek treatment. It is called "tough love". Don't take no for answer. There is help for him available and I'm sure he will thank you all afterwards for doing what it takes to get him the help he needs.
Guys like him need their families to not give up on them, to not accept that his life and his mental state cannot get better.

[August]

It could also be argued that the "damn male macho cult" is what causes wars and always has.

Y'know I could see that argument being made since most rulers throughout history have been men but I don't think that women are any less prone to such behavior.

[Skybird]

Thankfully some people in the army have a slightly deeper understanding of the matter than August.

http://www.army.mil/article/45556/


FORT HOOD, Texas (Sept. 23, 2010) -- The Army needs a significant cultural change so Soldiers who need behavioral health services and treatment will seek care, Vice Chief of Staff of the Army Gen. Peter Chiarelli told Fort Hood's Health Promotion Council Tuesday at III Corps.
(...)
He does not like the stigma often associated with calling it a disorder. Some people can view PTSD as a weakness or a sign of weakness in a person, he said.

"PTS is real; it is an injury," Chiarelli said. "It should be treated as an injury."

The first step, Chiarelli said, is in helping to eliminate the stigmas about behavioral health and treatment.

Soldiers suffering from traumatic brain injury and PTS require treatment focused toward their injury, he said, the same way Soldiers with physical injuries receive care.

"No one is complaining about the way we are treating Soldiers who lose arms or legs," Chiarelli said.

Brain injuries are different from physical ones, he said, and brain science is more complicated than mending a wounded limb.


http://www.army.mil/article/72230/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/army-suicides-set-record-in-july/2011/08/12/gIQAfbGlBJ_story.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-80-percent-army-suicides-start-iraq-war/story?id=15872301

BTW, August, longer time ago I was engaged in a project treating traumatised people from the balkans, torture victims. Chances are I made a much more and closer experiences with what traumatisation does with people, than you. You often pose as if people having worn a uniform were a better form of human beings. But as Steve already indicated indirectly: many of these people still cheered when their leaders sent them into unneeded wars, over lies and staged events, amongst that Iraq and of course Vietnam. That does not speak for their cleverness.

People are not all the same,. some are more robust, others are less. EVERYBODY has his breaking point. No exception. One should not just look at what somebody contributes in total, one should better check what he is willing to contribute for, over what cause he is indifferent, and what he is unwilling to contribute for, even if maybe following (opposing) orders. This tells oyu much more about the human you are delaing with, than his attitude to serve, no matter for what.

To make a rough example, to make the point clear: in WW2, the most potent forces often were the most fanatical Nazi units: SS units, and later youngster and teenagers at the end of the war being thrown from ther romantic Hitler Jugend directly into the meat grinder, to contribute their share to the defence of Hitler.

Obviously, an alone attitude of wanting to serve, to contribute, is not what decides the human value of the person. You still can be an extremely stupid person, even if wanting to serve your country alomost fanatically.

That is where for me calmness of mind, realism dominating over idealism, comes into play. This combined with discipline and a lack of illusions about what war is, what it means, and what iot does with humans - this I would call calm, cool professionalism. And that is a resulting quality in attitude that you can gain without ever having served in an army. Some may also gain it inside the army. But maybe that is not because of the army, but despite the army.

In 2003 or 2002 I mentioned first the to be expected high casualty numbers for the participating invading armies, due to PTS. August, you were amongst those laughing back then and attacking me for it. You still do now, because I scratch on your self-definition and the shining armour of how you see yourself and the role of the soldiers as you see it.

That you laugh about me means little, I just find it bewildering that I, as a foreigner, seem to care more for your army's people (and that of the German troops and that of the other nations) than you with all your plenty of macho experience. But like you offended many people repeatedly when thinking you must call me a warehouse worker time and again, you now offend all those "comrades" of yours" who return from recent wars mentally damaged, with a desintegrating social and family life, and find themselves falling through the social net because society does not lend its returnign warriors a hand if they do not grin wide and celebrate loud and parade with papertanks on the alley in Disneyland. War yes - but only if the blood and the sweat, the tears and the the the suffering gets faded out. Make it look like elegant sports, like fencing in white dresses, and let our bright heroes appear as marvel heroes, supermen with a skin of Mithril and a breath of fire that razors through mountains like laserbeam to teach the bad guys the lesson. The loosers - well, not needede to see their misery on TV. Who wants to see that, who wants to be reminded of the real costs the hip-hip-hooray event costed? The silence about PTS amongst troops, in the US, in britain, in germany, and probably elsewhere as well, was ear-deafening until recently.

I also remind of the fact that the army tries its best to manipulate statistics on losses. It emerged some years ago that for example soldiers dying while being en route to or being treated in Landstuhl, did not count as KIA in Afghanistan or Iraq, but were seen as deaths unrelated to combat and happening in Germany - they do not show up in the official KIA statistics. Other tricks like this are used as well, and have been revealed over the past couple of years by media. Bash that media now!

Further, there is the multiplication of suicides amongst troops with too much exposure to warzones. Again, the army tries to minimise interpretations thta link the suicides to mental stress resulting from having been in the warzones too long. A vet may be seen to have committed suicide due to a diovorce and not finding a job after the army retired him. That he may not find a job and his wife was more and more alienated because of his immense personality changes after he returned from his tours, gets intentionally not taken into account in such arguments. Many are said to volunatrily return to the war, since they cannot get otn out of their head, it keeps on rolling and rolling, and civilian life is where they do not fit, they want back to the war action, since that is what they now "know", although it consumes them, possibly. I knew one such case personally, a German Afghanistan veteran. He fell down the whole civilian ladder: job in family business, marrtiage, relation to children, getting divorced, alienating all his friends, finally working as mercenary in some security buzsiness in Afghanbistan. He shot himself in autumn 2010. The BW does not recognise any link between his time as BW soldier in afghanistan, and his suicide in private business - both officially are "unrelated".

The usual estimation on rates of PTS amongst BW soldiers serving in Afghanistan, is around 20-25%. For other armies, comprable rates are estimated. Now consider how many troops the US have rotated in and out in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002. And then do some basic math. Then you know the real casualty rate of American forces. It is multiple times as high than what the army says.

The total numbers on suicides amongst US soldiers range widely, depending on whether you ask the army, or some indipendent source, but even the army recongises that a statistzically highly significant rise has taken place. If it is just 80%, as the army claims, or up to 600% (some estimate even higher numbers!) as estim ated by independent orgisnations and researchers that are unrelated to the army, is hard to decide. I think it is more, since the army does not count suicides that are committed by vets who already have left the army and stayed alone with their problems in civilian life. And again, the army tries hard to make suicides due to PTS or caused by war-related mental proplems appearing as unrelated to right these war-factors.

I knew a doctor specialising in treatment of traumata, a Brit who was with the british army in 1991, at the Gulf. He now lives in Germany, was too alienated by what he called the stupditiy of the British leaders. I worked for him on that project I mentioned, a great man with a fantastic sense of dry humour and razorsharp mind - he was as British as a Brit can be: smart, elegant, and humorous, really. Anbd probbaly the best psycho doc I have ever seen in action. By what he told me about the background of medical caretaking in the British army at that time, and the expereinces from earlier war back to WW1, I would estimate the true number of american WIA in Afghanistan and Iraq alone to be several hundreds of thousands. And the KIA number also needs to be corrected upwards. God knows by how much.

Some people attack me when I am clear and determined about wars I see as a need, Iran for example. Others attack me when I am not all cheerio about unneeded wars based on stupidity and lies, like Iraq. But whatever it is, I find it strange that I seem to have less illusions about what war is and what it does to the human psyche, and am more aware of the need to care for those returning, than some people having been with the military and that now seem to think that that made them something better. The argument sometimes is that the attitude to serve and even sacrifice oneself for the cause (the criticism here would be that many seem to not care much for what cause they put themselves at risk, and that they do not care for the treacherous nature of those leaders they put their trust into), somewhat ennobles man. Or that the attitude taught in the army makes oyu dealing with your later civilian life "better", or ion the job. Well, in both cases the argument is not that war makes people better, but discipline. Altruism. Competence. NOT WAR ITSELF. War does only one thing: it destroys and kills. Bodies. Minds. Psyches. Own's, and enemy's. Combatants, and civilians. That'S all war does.

"Krieg vertiert." Nothing there that enobles man.

[Bilge_Rat]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-829390,00.html



good old "Der Spiegel", still the propaganda arm of the European loony left I see. There are many good articles on PTSD available, no need to pick one with such a blatant anti-american slant.

Everyone agrees PTSD is a problem, always has and always will be, but it does not just affect soldiers: policemen, firemen, paramedics, victims of violent crimes/plane crash/major accidents can all be affected by PTSD. Most eventually recover and are able to function in society. For the ones who really go off the deep end, you can't really know for sure if there was not an underlying condition already present.

The big difference is that now, most armed forces recognize the problem and setup programs to help service members suffering from PTSD as opposed to previous wars when they would be jailed or shot for "cowardice".

[August]

Thankfully some people in the army have a slightly deeper understanding of the matter than August.


Maybe, but you ain't one of them and you will never be one of them.

Oh and BTW I never claimed that PTSD does not exist or that it isn't a problem. That is a strawman you have created like this fantasy that you have any clue what military veterans have to deal with.

[Skybird]

Maybe, but you ain't one of them and you will never be one of them.
Oh, not to get dropped into silly wars and not wearing a uniform, neither yours nor ours, is a mishap I can happily live with. Leaves me with greater independeance of thought and wider array of options, and does not give me the feeling of getting sucked empty and spit out over excuses basing on betrayal and misleading of the people. It's great to decide yourself what you stand up for and what to make sacrifices for, instead of just following orders by politically superiors who could not care less for those they send into war. ;)

Oh and BTW I never claimed that PTSD does not exist or that it isn't a problem. That is a strawman you have created like this fantasy that you have any clue what military veterans have to deal with.

You implied that mentioning PTS in context of caretaking for psychologically injured veterans equals troll baiting. That was your charming opening in this thread, and it was completely unasked for.

Like was the rest.

[Ducimus]

Also this, in former times they used to call it shell shock, bluntly, now it's post-traumatic depression.
Just does not get better by using Orwell's doublespeak:
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/36/36804/1.html
Medicaments or drugs, dexedrine is still being used to keep soldiers awake :o

I believe it's called post traumatic stress disorder.:hmmm:


PTSD Euphemisms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeGKuTZtkpg) ( Watch it. )

[August]

You implied that mentioning PTS in context of caretaking for psychologically injured veterans equals troll baiting.

No I implied nothing of the sort. That was your misunderstanding. I think this threadis troll bait because it's you who started it.

[Skybird]

You know what: I think it was a big mistake to start "talking" with you again. Thankfully it is easy to correct that.

[Catfish]

PTSD Euphemisms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeGKuTZtkpg) ( Watch it. )

And this is exactly what i wanted to quote - thanks.

It is not really funny, though - Orwell's doublespeak at its best, but who of the 18-year-old soldiers read that when being sent to war ?


(Also regarding the Spiegel: It is (not entirely wrong) regarded as "leftist", but it mostly tells the truth regardless of consequences, and this has brought this newspaper in a brédouille lots of times. They also attack left politicians and their tactics, and most hate it for speaking what others don't want the public to hear.
You read an article and instantly say that can't be true, only some 3-4 years later it becomes obvious that it has been)

Greetings,
Catfish

[RickC Sniper]

It's great to decide yourself what you stand up for and what to make sacrifices for, instead of just following orders by politically superiors who could not care less for those they send into war. ;)



SB, A question for you and no, I am not baiting you. I am just curious.

If you were 19 years old and your country drafted you into the army during wartime what would you have done?

[Skybird]

SB, A question for you and no, I am not baiting you. I am just curious.

If you were 19 years old and your country drafted you into the army during wartime what would you have done?
Probably would have rejected it, for this reason:

when I was 19, I lived in West-Berlin, and the BW did not draw recruits there (special status of the city). But as a matter of fact I was thinking extremely hard to join the army as a professional, voluntarily, if I would made it through the tests. I weighed the pro and contra. And finally decided against it, for already back then, I did not trust politicians (and nations).

If you volunteer for a military profession, then you give up the right to refuse to fight a war you do not like, but you have to go when you get the order. The decision on whether you want to go or not in such a scenario, you need to make BEFORE you join the army. Once you volunteered, the choiuce is gone - you gave it up, voluntarily and all by yourself. And already back then I was not certain that I would will to risk my health and life because a war or a mission gets ordered that I consider to be not worth to lose my life for. I have oinly one life, and I am not willing to leave such a decisiuon to the kind of political, unscrupulous retards that today dominate our world.

When I consider the German mission in Afghanistan and Atalanta offshore Somalia, as well as the KFOR operation, also several UN missions, and consider the political excuses to run them the way they get run, and for the reasons claimed by political leaders, then I am happy that I am not a pro and decided against serving in the armed forcesit. I never have regretted it in the past 26 years since I was 19. But I feel a strong sympathy for the services, and I often thouight, when we got news about the Germans in Afghanistan, that many of them maybe are like me, just m,ade one single decision different, and maybe pay for it. Needless to say, I totally oppose the Afghanistan mission, since many years, for several reasons that got discussed in GT over the past years.

People considering to volunteer for servicing, I absolutely advise not to fall for silly catchphrases and empty slogans. Every young man or woman considering it, should consider it on the basis of realism only, not on the basis of idealism or seeing it as just another way do get an income like in any other job. It is not like most other jobs. The most stupid argument for joining the army is "serving the country". That one enrages me, really. In American ears, this must sound offensive, but it is not meant to be that. Idealism means nothing when you get sent to a war like Vietnam, Iraq, and it is in a way derogatory and arrogant towards many others who also serve the community of that country, it'S people: firemen, policemen, highway medics, and so many others. Steve probably meant what I say when he said above that macho cult not only wins battles but also can make people accepoting wars for wriong reasons, or joining the services over superfiical motives. I am aware that many soldiers who fought over the past ten years, indeed thoiught they were fighti8ng for soemthign good, or they belpieved in what Bush and Cheney told them. They got lied to, and their idlaism got abused by political azzholes who do not hesiatte to wlak over the bodies if their own people that they have sent to wars over lies or weak, anti-intellectual reasoning. Not to mention the terrifying dilletantic preparation and planning. For this, I indeed believe that several names from the Bush adminstration should hang from trees.

It makes me angry to the bone when somebody gives the impression that only military service is a honourable business, and earning you citizens' reward. A silly, unneeded war is never an honourable thing, but remains to be silly and unneeded, no matter how you turn it. You can win all battles and vaporate the enemy in battle, and still it is a silly, unneeded war. And if you support a silly and unneeded war although you have the choice, when you volunteer for it or support it at home in opinion and argument, then that makes you look silly yourself.

I exclude people how get drafted and get sent to a war that they oppose. However, I cannot let them get out of the respinsibility all for free completely: even when you get drafted, you have the freedom to decide to illegally evade military service, by deserting. Under this special circumstance, I see no wrong and nothing dishonourable in deserting, but I respect the courage. Deserting under this described, special circumstance may not be comfortable and may mess up your life, absolutely. But still: the option to do so exists for everybody. It's not as if people have no choices. It'sa just that all choices come at a price. And for most people, prices are what determines their decisions - not lacking options.

I am not in disrespect for the military in principle, and if you read some of my Iran postings, you know that I can be extremely determined on war actions - if I consider the cause being a needed one. But I hope I have no illusions about what war means for those fighting it and being effected by it, and I refuse to give military reputations in a biography more credits than it deserves.

[kranz]

You know what: I think it was a big mistake to start "talking" with you again. Thankfully it is easy to correct that.
made my day. (evening)
SB, A question for you and no, I am not baiting you. I am just curious.

If you were 19 years old and your country drafted you into the army during wartime what would you have done?
he would play dead. or dumb. or both. or...he just wouldn't have to pretend.

[RickC Sniper]

I exclude people how get drafted and get sent to a war that they oppose. However, I cannot let them get out of the respinsibility all for free completely: even when you get drafted, you have the freedom to decide to illegally evade military service, by deserting. Under this special circumstance, I see no wrong and nothing dishonourable in deserting, but I respect the courage. Deserting under this described, special circumstance may not be comfortable and may mess up your life, absolutely. But still: the option to do so exists for everybody. It's not as if people have no choices. It'sa just that all choices come at a price. And for most people, prices are what determines their decisions - not lacking options.



I should have known I'd not get a yes or no answer. :O:

I understand your reasons for not joining the military or choosing it as a career, but getting drafted is a different can of worms.

Let me ask this instead.

During WWI you come of age and Germany sends you that draft notice and you are to report in 10 days. Do you go? If not, do you leave the country?
I am not talking about desertion. You have to first be in the army to desert. Do you go, or do you refuse to go and accept the consequences of that?

Does your answer change depending on which of Germany's wars are used in the example? I ask this because you imply there can be a war you determine as just but I cannot recall a conflict you agree with on principle.

[Skybird]

Before all, you ask me about decisions and situation that in a way rate as extreme situations - and I think most humans, me included, can only be honest enough to know what they HOPE they would do in such a situation, if it ever arises. What people really do when it is not just words, but reality, is something different. The bigmouthed tavern-hero may turn out to be a coward wheen deeds are needed. The unheared-of silent mouse all people overlooked suddenly may becoming a fighting tiger. It is hard to know oneself. And even harder to look into others. So all my answers are given in the light of "I do not know what I would do for sure, but I know what I hope I would do". I do not believe anyone claiming to know his answers for sure as long as he has not been there, in real life.

During WWI you come of age and Germany sends you that draft notice and you are to report in 10 days. Do you go? If not, do you leave the country?

Assuming that I have the ethical and intellectual "horizon" I have today, in this present I live in: no, I would not.

Whether I would have gained my present horizon and education back then, in that cultural climate, in that different world and era, is something different, nationalism and emperor and all that. The man I am today I am because of the factors that formed my life and left an impression. And the world allowed these factors, and prevented others.

Do you go, or do you refuse to go and accept the consequences of that?
I am only human, so I know what I HOPE I would do in that extreme situation. Yes, I would take the consequences. Either join a resistence group. Or leave the country. I even can imagine to change sides. As a German in WWII, for example. In that example I would not even consider it as treason to Germany, but fighting for Germany. A Germany without Nazis, and which has a peaceful perspective for the future.

I value the Western culture, but I know no principle loyalty to my country for the only reason that it is the place I was born in. That holds no merits. What I am loyal to is the things I weigh as right and as wrong. Freedom. To be at peace with my conscience. That is all so much more important than just nationality, or flags and symbols. Flags and symbols is not the stuff I can understand - I can only realise (with bewilderment) that such things seem to be important for many others, althoigh nit is only flagsd and symbols. Man is a strange species at times, hard to understand reasonably. However, in the end, I always end up with my conscience, don't I. And not just in this context here.

Does your answer change depending on which of Germany's wars are used in the example?
Tricky. I must precise your question: ask the question about the reason and cause of the war, independent from "nation". Answer would be: yes, it depends on what wars we talk about. About the world wars: WW1 was an unwanted and needless war from all sides, absolutely stupid, imo. I would not have joined any side. WW2: I would not have joined the Nazis. I HOPE I would have had the courage to join the resistance. If I were a citizen of an Allied country, I would have not evaded service.


I ask this because you imply there can be a war you determine as just but I cannot recall a conflict you agree with on principle.
If I were the leader of the world :D you would see me waging far less wars than we have seen in the time since WWII, wars like Vietnam, Iraq 03 would not take place, other wars like Lebanon 06 and Afghanistan would have been done very differently and securing defeat of the enemy even at the cost of turning the place into a miles-deep burning hellhole, if that would have been the only way. The wars I would wage I would wage with all consequence and determination, even unlimited brutality needed to secure the achgieving of objects and crush the enemy. So, history has seen many wars of lesser harshness, I would run the show by a principle of "lesser wars, but these with all forces necessary". And I mean it when saying "all force needed".

Call it: "as little force as possible - BUT AS MUCH FORCE AS NEEDED".

War should not be taken so lightly, like some nations today do. It should alsom not be ruled out so totally, like especially my own nation says. Germans love to say "Never again war!". I prefer saying "Never again war for the wrong side, never again war for evil or for lies".

Fighting the Nazis was necessary and unavoidable, absolutely. That would be an example for a war that I unconditionally support.

However, I usually do not differ between just and injust wars, but between wars of choice and wars of need. I oppose the first, I accept the latter, though I do not like the latter. But what is in "need", is necessary. War always is injust, even needed wars, it always is at the cost of too many innocents, it turns everybody into victims. There is no thing such as "just wars".

[RickC Sniper]

Thank you, that helps me understand much better things you have said here and in the past.

[Tribesman]

I think this threadis troll bait because it's you who started it.
Does that mean the bait caught August?

[Skybird]

Thank you, that helps me understand much better things you have said here and in the past.

You're welcome!

[MH]

I knew one such case personally, a German Afghanistan veteran. He fell down the whole civilian ladder: job in family business, marrtiage, relation to children, getting divorced, alienating all his friends, finally working as mercenary in some security buzsiness in Afghanbistan. He shot himself in autumn 2010. The BW does not recognise any link between his time as BW soldier in afghanistan, and his suicide in private business - both officially are "unrelated".
.


It is a career choice ....nothing more.
In particular because the guy went for mercenary and so on.
So if he did not join the army it all would not happen to him.
Some people would not be alcoholics if not exposed to booze or shoot themselves due to financial risks taken or overall displeasure with life..

If it was like that i would live in a country of nut cases....some may argue that i do:haha: but actually people with respectful service are usually also quite successful in life and careers.
Maybe some armies are better with character judgments but for that you need vast pool of volunteers to have the choice to begin with.:hmmm:



.................

[MothBalls]

Everyone who has seen combat has been "wounded".

[Ducimus]

Everyone who has seen combat has been "wounded".

http://www.warlinks.com/pages/teepoem.php

[Jimbuna]

http://www.warlinks.com/pages/teepoem.php

Been quite a while since I last seen that or something very similar :hmmm:

[Skybird]

A climb in suicide rates of active US army personell is reported again. By that count, the losses from suicides are higher than losses suffered in combat again.

The number would be even higher if also counting those suicides commited by veterans who no longer are in service and that the Pentagon thus loves to describe as unrelated to war deployments during service time.

The total numbers are constantly rising since a decade despite attempts to tackle them by increased options for personell to ask for help.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/07/us-soldier-suicide-war.html

Your eyes see war, your soul pays a price. Always.

[Catfish]

I read today elsewhere, that the number of suicides in the US miltary has overtaken the numbers killed in combat.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/immer-mehr-selbstmorde-unter-us-soldaten-a-837659.html
There's not much to add - the "trauma" (also a nice latin word for being wounded) exists.


- I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in."

- "War is old men talking and young men dying"

(McCain (?))

[Kongo Otto]

Post Traumatic stress disorder or shock shell, pff just names, who cares about names or the crap posted by leftist crapnews like "Der Spiegel".
I suffer from PTSD and was retired in 1997 due to medical reasons (aka unfit for further service).
To fight my insomnia i need Trimipramine (150 mg) and in the morning i must take Mirtazapine (50mg).
Nevertheless i still sleep with lights on in my room, mostly with hardest nightmares when i sleep at all.
Many times i woke up, and had vomitted my bedding while dreaming.
My GF sleeps in a seperate bed because i can't sleep with another person even in the same room.
After all those years i still can't go to overcrowed place like public viewings during the Football World Championship etc. Even going to a supermarket full with people makes me shivering and sweat like hell.
Over the years i learned to avoid situations or places which could casue Falshbacks.

But what i "like" the most are comments by Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair generals like "get over it" or even better "everything will be fine again"
Everything will be fine again my arse.

The experience i made is that nothing is kept under the carpet and every Armed Service of any country does the best they can do for the men/women which are suffering from PTSD or any other kind of battle trauma.

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks for sharing your pain, Kongo Otto. So many people from so many walks of life suffer the emotional effects of trauma. At least modern society recognizes and tries to help those who suffer from PTSD, at least here in America the Veteran's Administration is dedicated to trying to help.

[Skybird]

Post Traumatic stress disorder or shock shell, pff just names, who cares about names or the crap posted by leftist crapnews like "Der Spiegel".
I suffer from PTSD and was retired in 1997 due to medical reasons (aka unfit for further service).
To fight my insomnia i need Trimipramine (150 mg) and in the morning i must take Mirtazapine (50mg).
Nevertheless i still sleep with lights on in my room, mostly with hardest nightmares when i sleep at all.
Many times i woke up, and had vomitted my bedding while dreaming.
My GF sleeps in a seperate bed because i can't sleep with another person even in the same room.
After all those years i still can't go to overcrowed place like public viewings during the Football World Championship etc. Even going to a supermarket full with people makes me shivering and sweat like hell.
Over the years i learned to avoid situations or places which could casue Falshbacks.

But what i "like" the most are comments by Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair generals like "get over it" or even better "everything will be fine again"
Everything will be fine again my arse.

The experience i made is that nothing is kept under the carpet and every Armed Service of any country does the best they can do for the men/women which are suffering from PTSD or any other kind of battle trauma.

Has your doctor considered a possible causal link between vomitting and taking Trimizapine? Gastro-intestinal problems are a known sideeffect of Trimi.

Both medications have a generally dampening effect, and I am sure you already know that taking such drugs only deals with symptoms and neurologic interfaces, not with the symptoms' psychic causes. This is not meant to minimise this value of theirs, I know that it can make all the difference between a life that can be handled, and a life that gets out of control.

I wish you to have found company and assistance in form of somebody understanding this, who is capable to handle you nevertheless despite you maybe being "difficult".

Psychotherapy will or will not help you, I do not judge that from outside and from the distance. But I know that people having to deal with endlessly running memories of somethign bad and traumatising sometimes find relief when withdrawing their lives away from the crowded, people-rich places like towns and cities, and seek to start a new life in the countryside, in nature, distanced from other people. I mean that as an active decision, not just as a reaction you feel urged to obey like you do when avoiding crowds and public events - I mean the difference between chosen retreat and mere avoidance behavior. The very experience of nature itself can be healing, sometimes to more sometimes to less degree. Times of chosen retreat (not fleeing into avoidance) can be helpful. Unfortunately, for the effected subject it is difficult to decide when retreating is indeed kind of therapeutically useful, and when it just tranbslate into avoidance and thus increases the pathological net effect and leads deeper into the troubles, due to unconstructive self-isolation. So, there is risk involved when going this path.

You possibly will never go back to your former life and self. But I hope you travel a path that leads you towards finding your "new" life bearable one day.

[CaptainHaplo]

Everyone who has seen combat has been "wounded".

What absolute nonsense! Any child who has ever been punished by their parents has been wounded then. Anyone who has ever been pulled over for a traffic violation has been wounded then.

Your talking out your rear. Not everyone who has seen combat has PTSD or some emotional scar. Yes some things never go away. Some stressful situations change the way we look at things. That doesn't mean its a wound. You know nothing of what you speak.


I suffer from PTSD.

Everything will be fine again my arse.

The experience i made is that nothing is kept under the carpet and every Armed Service of any country does the best they can do for the men/women which are suffering from PTSD or any other kind of battle trauma.

K.O. - Brother, your in my prayers. Let me encourage you to see if there is a PTSD support group in your area. There are many here in the States and I strongly suggest PTSD sufferers to give it a try. It helps many.

@Skybird - Its important to understand WHY the occurances of PTSD have increased. Think back to WW2 - submariners didn't sink seamen, they sank ships. Pilots shot down planes, not pilots. Warfighters tend to disassociate as much as possible from the reality that their actions cause the deaths of people. The conflicts that have been ongoing have not allowed such disassociation. You can make a ship or a plane "impersonal" to an extent. You can't look down the barrel of a rifle and site on a person and pull the trigger and then make it impersonal.

This is why the barbarity and inhumanity of the actions of the enemy are stressed by the warfighter. Its psychologically necessary to dehumanize the enemy in some way. Given the problem of seperating the civilian from the combatant, more and more of the symptoms displayed are of the type described by K.O. - the struggle to deal with places where there are lots of people - for example. Its like those who need to sit in a corner at a restaurant just so they can see everyone.

PTSD is real. Many militaries and countries do indeed take it seriously, and try to help those who suffer from it. Could it be done better? Everything like this can be "done better" - but don't think the effort isn't there.

[Skybird]

I think the ral dimension of the problem is hidden from the public to give the wars they decide to fight a nicier face. I also think that in an army that is at war and where the personell pool is under stress, the priority in psychological treatement is not towards ehaling but to ensure usability in a combat environment again. In fact over the past years this has been reported in documentaries several times in case oif the US army.

Not everybody seeing the dying and destruction in war or experiencing the sensual environment of battle, suffers immediate PTS. But I am absolutely certain that something in man breaks when seing such things. There is a scar left in the hidden, in the inside. Something breaks, leaves an invisible wound. Makes your turning into a fatalist, or a barbarian dog, or a man having lost his thunder, or having lost his sensuality, sensibility, ability to admire nature and beauty. Whatever it is, the effect inevitably is there.

I am also sure that every man has his personal total, absolute breaking point. Push him beyond that point, and some core of his soul springs into pieces like glass, leaves him diagnosed with PTS or whatever. A German politician who has lived thorugh the war, put it in just two words, in the best way I ever heared it expressed: "Krieg vertiert." (Egon Bahr).

In the end, man is a creature that wants to see meaning and sense in life, and preferrably a pösotive meaning, not just an instrumental explanation. A hunger for meaning. Don't feed that, or disapoint that craving, and you see man loosing himself. Drugs. Fatalism. Barbarism. Blindness. Just consider what Vietnam did to many GIs.

That so many people fall for religions, also is to be xplained bny that: hunger for meaning, for a sense in living, an explanation why we are here. This is imo one of the most fundamental dimensions that define the essence of being human, beside the drives of survial, and sex. And it can overcome both the latter and even can make man sacrificing himself and actively refusing the survival drive.

[Hawk66]

as a footnote: Do not forget the 'casualties' among the families (especially their children) /friends of WIA soldiers and also not of those civilians, who have to live in the conflict zone and bear the consequences.

I do not always agree with Skybird ;) but on this topic he's definitely right. I think military organizations need more transparency in general and one way to do this is to have independent reviewers. In the end this would be beneficial for all...for the military and for society.

Especially if you think that the people who join the military are often teenagers, who lack the education and experience to judge what consequences their decision will have. I think it's only fair for them to see the whole story - what it is to go to war before they make their decision.

I also do not agree on statements like 'you were never in the military, you cannot judge how it is' and that stuff. Sure you do not get the whole picture...but btw...do you really get it when you were there...have you really seen all?

[CaptainHaplo]

I also do not agree on statements like 'you were never in the military, you cannot judge how it is' and that stuff. Sure you do not get the whole picture...but btw...do you really get it when you were there...have you really seen all?

You can disagree all you want. Yet your own argument proves the point - you DON'T get the whole picture. What is more, you have only an outside view of what the impact on a person is. You don't have the personal experience.

Its like if you know a person who goes through a contentious divorce and you never have. Sure you can sympathize, but you have no personal experience. Then later you go through one - and have a totally different understanding of the situation.

Divorce is not the best example - the closest I could estimate it to be would be the loss of a child. Thankfully I have not gone through THAT - yet like the memories of combat - its just something that never, ever leaves you. You can have a few moments where your mind focuses and can think it knows what PTSD is like. But in 5 minutes - that thought is gone, you move on to the next thought - your not haunted by the sounds of gunfire, the cries of your comrades, or the slick stickyness of the blood that comes from your best friend who breathes his last in your arms. Even after you "win" an engagement, your struggling to save the lives of those who are hurt, recover those who are lost, and asking yourself what you did wrong to see so many of your friends hurt or killed, all while trying to sort out the whole mess.

Its not just the losses and combat that stays with you. The trips to the homes of families - seeing a mother, a wife or a child break down all over again. They knew their husband or father or son was gone - but you owed it to them to come and tell them how much he cared, how much he loved them, how he died fighting for them. Yes - how he didn't suffer - whether true or not. You have to give him that through his family - even though often times you wonder if you could have done "more" to save him.

Stand in front of a father who looks at you with a tears in his eyes as he asks you "Why did my son die?" - and you struggle to answer because your really wondering if its not your fault that he did. Its called Survivor's guilt. You look into the faces of people who loved those soldiers. It was your job to lead them - and somehow - things didn't go like expected - and their dead. Your responsibility. Their deaths are on your head.

Those memories never leave you. Those ghosts are by your side every minute of the day, every day of the year. They whisper in your dreams, you never escape them.

No Hawk, you nor anyone else who has never seen combat cannot have a hope of truly understanding PTSD - in all its many forms. You can sympathize, you can offer support - but if you ever feel you "understand" it - your simply deluding yourself.

[Sailor Steve]

Considering that the thread is about military dishonesty, not the experience itself, I'm not sure what the above post has to do with anything. Should a therapist who hasn't "been there and done that" be disqualified from trying to help PTSD victims? In my opinion your comments are a little on the dismissive side.

Oh, while we're on the subject, where and when was your service?

I do not always agree with Skybird ;) but on this topic he's definitely right. I think military organizations need more transparency in general and one way to do this is to have independent reviewers. In the end this would be beneficial for all...for the military and for society.
I completely agree with this. In this case honesty really is the best policy.

I also do not agree on statements like 'you were never in the military, you cannot judge how it is' and that stuff. Sure you do not get the whole picture...but btw...do you really get it when you were there...have you really seen all?
As do I. I've been there and done that, and no, I don't claim to know anything except my experience and those of others I've known.

[Hawk66]

No Hawk, you nor anyone else who has never seen combat cannot have a hope of truly understanding PTSD - in all its many forms. You can sympathize, you can offer support - but if you ever feel you "understand" it - your simply deluding yourself.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I do not think that I've fully or even half-fully understand PTSD; neither the theory, nor what it means practically for a men's life.

My point is that such discussions should not only occur within the military/government but in the whole society. But one prerequisite is that the military/government makes it more transparent...so that the society as a whole cannot simply duck away from the problem so easily...

Society and politics cannot change combat. But they are responsible for deciding when you go to combat and it can provide the proper means (eg. provide budget, public support etc.) to reduce the 'side effects' of combat afterwards...in the very beginning and not when they are forced to do so by media or any other triggers.

Especially in Germany the government has tried to sell for a long time the Afghanistan engagement to the people as a 'nation building engagement' and the Bundeswehr would be just be over there to protect the nation builder or to build itself new schools, hospitals and by the way train the army of Afghanistan.

Finally after the last secretary of defense has stopped this nonsense procedure of lying and told the people 'the truth' of the scope of this engagement, you have seen more and more reports in all medias about PTSD.
This is at least my strong impression and I am asking myself if not more soldiers could be helped in a better way when the public awareness had been there from the beginning...

[CaptainHaplo]

Hawk,

Maybe I did misunderstand your post. If so, I apologize. I have worked with support groups for PTSD sufferers and I took your meaning as "anyone can understand it".

I 150% agree that the military and government need to be more forthcoming and honest.