A complaint about this game

[Daniel Prates]

So far, I am still one of the many users "awarded" with a bug in which the game's units simply freeze (but not the game itself). The developers seems to have no clue as to why this happens. All guys who have reported this flaw have acceptable hardware platforms.

Many people complain about that in paradox's specific forum, but our voices are being muffled by an atmosphere of sheer praise and compliments. A too-good-to-be-true cheer, by the way, as the game is plagued with many shortcomings, both in performance (no savegame button in single missons, for instance!) and in realism (aircraft being able to launch withins seconds even if you order their ordnance changed, for instance). I'm not saying that these praises are lies; maybe people just dont know better. Anyway, it is obvious that this "hurray!" climate is bringing down the effort from a part of the comunity (victims of this game's too early, untested release) to point out that main flaws are a fact and no solution is within sight - worse than that, the happiness of a majority of users (could be merely 50% + 1, i dont really know) appears to be posing the complaining ones as: a) an irrelevant group, considering that "so many people" are happy with the game; b) basicly, moaners that have nothing better to do than to disagree with the pre-concept that the devs are the best guys in the world, and thanks god for them.

Should you people be interested, I just posted this commentary on the game's specific forum in paradox forums:

"I would like, at this point, to bring attention to some issues that are not being properly discussed. They relate to this specific bug (of which I am STILL a victim, by the way), but to some other overall issues.

Though the developers (of which I assume JanH is a main representant) are obviously trying (apparently) to solve this main issue, I too think that the problem is being downplayed somewhat, in an indirect manner.

People are always saying that paradox has a huge online comunity, that many developers are there improving their games etc... that is all fine, of course, but it all is said in such a manner as if they (devs and comunity) were doing us FAVOURS of which we were supposed to be imensely grateful.

That is not how it works. We are CUSTUMERS. I bougth a game (this and many others, chech how much games I have activated) because of paradox's standards (which used to be higher). When I buy a game I expect it to work, to have support, to have answers. But all i've been seeing is one of two things: a) a developer saying "we're on it" every now and then, and b) for every time a dev says something, there are 100 other users saying things like "get off the guys back. My game works fine, so its your problem, be patient". As if I were here to get the opinion of other users! Some guy actually had the nerve to come to me and say "its obviously a problem at your end, as I had no such complaint".

Why do I see so many people here in a "touchy" stance? "Oh my, dont complain, the devs are great guys and are doing their best... dont be mean to them... what would happen if they decided to stop being helpful " etc etc... what the heck is going on? We are now coming to understand that we bougth an un-ready game, and we are the bad guys for coming here and complain about it? I paid for this game, damn it, and I want it working! And on the side, I would also like for satisfied customers (or "lucky customers" they should be called, as they are just that, lucky for having the game to work) to stop meddling with anything but constructive opinions. For every constructive opinion I read from an user, I read 10 or so post praising the game and making it seem that the complaining custumers are something like an comunity pariah.

Paradox really should come out and say "here is your money back. We'll correct the game then put it out again - so next time you buy a game from us, you will know we mean business".

[Daniel Prates]

And I will add saying that, as for now, "fleet command" is still a vastly surpassing game in all aspects. NWAC has potential, but it is still far from it. Maybe we will see, in the future, a more mature game, be it an oficial development, be it a comunity-improved game. But the truth of the matter is that if a guy cant simply get a game to work, or even complain about it without having the comunity to stone him... that is rough.

Paradox used to be better. I sure hope they are reading this.

[Julhelm]

Consider that this is the only naval sim to have been released recently. You and others say Fleet Command is better, but that game came out in what, 1998? Whole different time and climate then, so the type of bitching I see on the NWAC boards, ie "This game sucks, Fleet Command is better" is not constructive at all.

And I think the naval crowd has not forgotten that bitching killed the SH series, leaving us with nothing. The game has potential and the devs are working on fixing the bugs. They're not going to get the patch out quicker just because people complain more about the same problem.

These guys deserve the praise simply for trying. After all they could've been making social games and made tons of money.

[mapuc]

Consider that this is the only naval sim to have been released recently. You and others say Fleet Command is better, but that game came out in what, 1998? Whole different time and climate then, so the type of bitching I see on the NWAC boards, ie "This game sucks, Fleet Command is better" is not constructive at all.

And I think the naval crowd has not forgotten that bitching killed the SH series, leaving us with nothing. The game has potential and the devs are working on fixing the bugs. They're not going to get the patch out quicker just because people complain more about the same problem.

These guys deserve the praise simply for trying. After all they could've been making social games and made tons of money.

I have only tried the Demo-version so far. I also have the old FC and I say the same FC was and stil is better than this new game. Yes FC is old but it's concept is somehow better.

Give them a Chance!!?? why??? You do not send a game on the market, that crash/freeze the game or your computer. If it does happen, the devoloper should remove the game from the market and fix it.

Markus

[Daniel Prates]

Julhem, you are evading the topic alltogether. It is about the game NOT WORKING for a lot of costumers, and also about and the lack of response - no, actually, the combat that game suporters are posing, in such a manner that complaining about an obvious game flaw has become subject of HOSTILITY in paradox's forum.

That is what my bitch and moan is all about. It is not about comparing FC to NWAC.




PS: though there is no fair compairson between the two. :rock:

[Arclight]

Give them a Chance!!?? why??? You do not send a game on the market, that crash/freeze the game or your computer. If it does happen, the devoloper should remove the game from the market and fix it.
By that logic, Fleet Command shouldn't be here either. :O:


* the relevant thread over at Paradox btw, seeing as how it isn't linked to here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?602365-New-Patch-1.0.4.3-same-freeze-problem

[Bilge_Rat]

That is what my bitch and moan is all about. It is not about comparing FC to NWAC.




PS: though there is no fair compairson between the two. :rock:

Oh, you must have played a different "Fleet Command" than me. When it was first released, FC was referred to as "Harpoon lite", pretty but not very realistic. :ping:

Please lets not turn this into another SH3 vs SH5 slugfest. :yawn:

I understand your frustation, but tracking down hardware problems on a new game is often the most frustating. I have played the game over 10 hours now and have had zero freezes or CTDs.

[Julhelm]

Julhem, you are evading the topic alltogether. It is about the game NOT WORKING for a lot of costumers, and also about and the lack of response
Bull****. The devs are working on a patch. Ergo they are trying to fix the issue that prevents some of their customers from playing the game. What more response can you ask for? Like I said, constantly creating new topics and bitching about the same bug in every thread the way sim fans tend to do accomplishes nothing but create the reputation that the game itself is a lemon , thus negatively affecting sales and further diminishing the chance of us getting any new naval games in the foreseeable future. As for me I'd rather not be stuck with playing 10+ year old games forever. If 300+ strong AAA dev teams cannot release bugfree games, what makes you think a small indie dev can deliver a flawless product as their first game?

[0rpheus]

Bull****. The devs are working on a patch. Ergo they are trying to fix the issue that prevents some of their customers from playing the game. What more response can you ask for? Like I said, constantly creating new topics and bitching about the same bug in every thread the way sim fans tend to do accomplishes nothing but create the reputation that the game itself is a lemon , thus negatively affecting sales and further diminishing the chance of us getting any new naval games in the foreseeable future. As for me I'd rather not be stuck with playing 10+ year old games forever. If 300+ strong AAA dev teams cannot release bugfree games, what makes you think a small indie dev can deliver a flawless product as their first game?

Have to agree with this. Considering the state some other games are released in (cough Cliffs of Dover cough), and the often poor QA reputation that comes with Paradox games, I think NWAC is in a pretty decent state.

@ OP - Raging for your money back is a waste of breath, it won't happen. In actual fact, JanH seems to have gone to a fair amount of effort to reassure users that the freeze problem is being investigated - logs are being sent at his request to help identify the cause. This is a lot further than the majority of developers go, in fact you're lucky that the devs post at all.

As for the atmosphere of 'positivity' getting in the way of your (admittedly legitimate) complaints, well, I hardly know what to say. The first naval game released in god knows how many years, and you're upset that the happy people are drowning out your whining, even after they've stated they're doing all they can to find and fix the error?

Priorities and all that. :o

[jpinard]

Very sad Mr. Prates <--- he didn't like my response to him and others in the official forum so he comes here to whine and hurt the game. And here I thought Brazilians didn't have the selfish, entitlement attitude us Americans always seem to have. Disappointed to say the least.

In response, (and to put it in perspective) the game hasn't even been out 14 days yet and their team is only 6 people! I had to wait 2 MONTHS for fixes to Civ V and that game cost $60 and had a team of 50+. I was upset by Civ V and posting similar rants to Daniel Prates, then realized what an entitled ass I was being and how a game... compared with the world's problems is silly to get all Chernobyl over.

Daniel - if something this little gives you such emotional and indignant feelings - do something productive with it. Go save your environment, forests and protect Amazon tributaries. Countless plant and animal species humans could use for medicine and science are going extinct due to timber, overpopulation, and poaching in your country. One person CAN make a difference.

[soopaman2]

I have only tried the Demo-version so far. I also have the old FC and I say the same FC was and stil is better than this new game. Yes FC is old but it's concept is somehow better.

Give them a Chance!!?? why??? You do not send a game on the market, that crash/freeze the game or your computer. If it does happen, the devoloper should remove the game from the market and fix it.

Markus

I too tried the demo and found it lacking. Not that the game was bad, or not fun. I just found it lacking something to keep me hooked.

Not speaking bad on it mind you. I did find it fun, just not "addictive".

[Takeda Shingen]

Let's keep this from getting personal, guys. Argue the game not the person.

The Management

[jpinard]

I too tried the demo and found it lacking. Not that the game was bad, or not fun. I just found it lacking something to keep me hooked.

Not speaking bad on it mind you. I did find it fun, just not "addictive".

I felt that way at first too. But when I realized this was more a mix of Defcon & Fleet Command as opposed to a Fleet Command clone I started enjoying it a lot more.

[soopaman2]

I felt that way at first too. But when I realized this was more a mix of Defcon & Fleet Command as opposed to a Fleet Command clone I started enjoying it a lot more.

At the price of the game in all honesty it is worth it. 20(USD) is half the beer required for the boys when they come over to watch a football game.

At least the game won't pee in my wifes flowerbed.:haha:

[Foxendown]

I sort of see both sides of this argument and would add that two issues are being run together here.

1. Criticism that the game is lite, unrealistic and generally buggier and not as good as xyz (choose from the tiny number of modern naval sims).

2. Understandable frustration that some people using XP can't play it because of a bug which the developers frankly admit is down to bad QA.

Regarding 1, the game isn't Harpoon or Global Conflict Blue but it doesn't claim to be. It set out from the start to be accessible and bring in new people to this tiny and fragile genre. I say a hearty "well done" to the developers for that. We've also been told it's highly moddable. If that is the case, the community will be able to make a big contribution to fixing what's wrong with it over time.

Regarding 2, I am one of the people who can't play the game on my XP gaming PC. Like Neal, I can play it as a slide show on my laptop. Clearly Turbo Tape have made a serious error here that has cost them sales and engendered a lot of grumpy posts. At first I found that situation annoying I admit, but the developers have been so refreshingly honest and have committed to fix the problem that I now really want to give them some space to do that (and they are a small team).

If the worse comes to the worse I will be playing an enhanced version in a couple of years time when I have to upgrade my OS because it's going out of support. In the meantime, I am happy for them to have my money as a contribution to further development of this type of sim which let's face it doesn't appear very often. Now, back to GCB2 and DW.....(and looking forward to Command).

[stormrider_sp]

So far, I am still one of the many users "awarded" with a bug in which the game's units simply freeze (but not the game itself). The developers seems to have no clue as to why this happens. All guys who have reported this flaw have acceptable hardware platforms.

Many people complain about that in paradox's specific forum, but our voices are being muffled by an atmosphere of sheer praise and compliments. A too-good-to-be-true cheer, by the way, as the game is plagued with many shortcomings, both in performance (no savegame button in single missons, for instance!) and in realism (aircraft being able to launch withins seconds even if you order their ordnance changed, for instance). I'm not saying that these praises are lies; maybe people just dont know better. Anyway, it is obvious that this "hurray!" climate is bringing down the effort from a part of the comunity (victims of this game's too early, untested release) to point out that main flaws are a fact and no solution is within sight - worse than that, the happiness of a majority of users (could be merely 50% + 1, i dont really know) appears to be posing the complaining ones as: a) an irrelevant group, considering that "so many people" are happy with the game; b) basicly, moaners that have nothing better to do than to disagree with the pre-concept that the devs are the best guys in the world, and thanks god for them.

Should you people be interested, I just posted this commentary on the game's specific forum in paradox forums:

"I would like, at this point, to bring attention to some issues that are not being properly discussed. They relate to this specific bug (of which I am STILL a victim, by the way), but to some other overall issues.

Though the developers (of which I assume JanH is a main representant) are obviously trying (apparently) to solve this main issue, I too think that the problem is being downplayed somewhat, in an indirect manner.

People are always saying that paradox has a huge online comunity, that many developers are there improving their games etc... that is all fine, of course, but it all is said in such a manner as if they (devs and comunity) were doing us FAVOURS of which we were supposed to be imensely grateful.

That is not how it works. We are CUSTUMERS. I bougth a game (this and many others, chech how much games I have activated) because of paradox's standards (which used to be higher). When I buy a game I expect it to work, to have support, to have answers. But all i've been seeing is one of two things: a) a developer saying "we're on it" every now and then, and b) for every time a dev says something, there are 100 other users saying things like "get off the guys back. My game works fine, so its your problem, be patient". As if I were here to get the opinion of other users! Some guy actually had the nerve to come to me and say "its obviously a problem at your end, as I had no such complaint".

Why do I see so many people here in a "touchy" stance? "Oh my, dont complain, the devs are great guys and are doing their best... dont be mean to them... what would happen if they decided to stop being helpful " etc etc... what the heck is going on? We are now coming to understand that we bougth an un-ready game, and we are the bad guys for coming here and complain about it? I paid for this game, damn it, and I want it working! And on the side, I would also like for satisfied customers (or "lucky customers" they should be called, as they are just that, lucky for having the game to work) to stop meddling with anything but constructive opinions. For every constructive opinion I read from an user, I read 10 or so post praising the game and making it seem that the complaining custumers are something like an comunity pariah.

Paradox really should come out and say "here is your money back. We'll correct the game then put it out again - so next time you buy a game from us, you will know we mean business".

And I tought I was the only one. For me the game is currently unplayable. When it starts to freeze, its just a matter of minutes til it unfreezes with that pathetic "defeated" screen. The game was obviously released un-tested. Not a good strategy when we naval warfare simmers have been waiting patiently for a new game for about a decade now. :damn:

I gave up playing and gave up complaining and reporting its bugs when people accused me of complaining on behalf of another game currently in development, which I am an active member of its community, as if my complains were part of a marketing plot. Pathetic! :dead:

[Julhelm]

Well you could have downloaded the demo first, but don't let that get in the way of your massive entitlement complex:

When we naval warfare simmers have been waiting patiently

Right.

[stormrider_sp]

Well you could have downloaded the demo first, but don't let that get in the way of your massive entitlement complex:



Right.

I did download the demo, and I really enjoyed it, and even if I had not enjoyed it, I would have bought the game anyways, like all of the other naval games I bought just to support our loved genre.

Naval simmers like us, who love this genre, usually spend time "reading" and "studying" the subject, like current flight simulators, sometimes called "study sims", we usually do our homeworks, so soon after I started playing the campaing, its bugs, flaws and inconsistences started to emerge. In my opinion if not all, at least most of them current bugs and flaws would had been solved if the game hadnt been rushed out to release in first place. Take your time, do it right to do it once.
Who doesnt know the impact and value of first impressions?

[Arclight]

Who doesnt know the impact and value of first impressions?
... Then why this need to slam the thing completely? That "quitting in a huff" thread over at Paradox and the now-deleted post here saying it's not worth the money; you don't think that affects people's decision on the matter?

Can't you just make reasonable statements? An issue slipping through QA doesn't mean something is untested or rushed, at most it means they should expand their QA efforts.

It's your attitude that's attracting the flak, not the fact you have a complaint.

[Bilge_Rat]

Hardware issues are often the hardest ones to pin down. PCs come in all sorts of different configurations, different hardware, software, drivers, etc. I have worked as a Beta tester before and no matter how much the Devs tried to test their game or patch on as many different configs as possible, as soon as the game/patch was released, you would invariably have users posting about technical problems.

That is also one of the major reasons why major developpers/publishers are moving to consoles, since when you design a game for the XBOX, you know every player will be using exactly the same hardware.

[Daniel Prates]

I am merely comenting this game. Lots of people (take Julhem for instance) have chosen to take matters personally and even to insult me on the matter ("massive entitlement complex"? Ouch. Even my nationality was insulted in another post dowh there. I should perpahs report this to the forum moderators and see what they think of it).

My point was to evidentiate that this game's evident flaws are being downplayed, more than that, swept under the rug by a faction of fanatics (I cant think of another word), that are taking the matter personally and going through huge lenghts to demerit a lot of unsatisfied costumers - as if we were not within our rights to demand a fix for the problem.

People like this julhem guy have actually helped me to prove just that. I cant understand it, really I cant.

[Herman]

I quite agree. There will always be folks who think that as long as it runs on their personal system, it must run on everyone else's.

I've seen all kinds of oddities and crashes, but there isn't really much to send as there is no Save Game function. Also, a good many of my MP matches end in crashes due to overloads of the server. Again, I have no access to it. I doubt a video or screenshot would be of much use.

[soopaman2]

Hardware issues are often the hardest ones to pin down. PCs come in all sorts of different configurations, different hardware, software, drivers, etc. I have worked as a Beta tester before and no matter how much the Devs tried to test their game or patch on as many different configs as possible, as soon as the game/patch was released, you would invariably have users posting about technical problems.

That is also one of the major reasons why major developpers/publishers are moving to consoles, since when you design a game for the XBOX, you know every player will be using exactly the same hardware.

This is the reason why I give smaller developers more room. They do not have the experience nor money to playtest 1000 different configurations.

I am just glad some devs do not "take the easy way out" with making a console version, then porting it to PC as an afterthought later.

Yet the (mainly monetary) limitations should not cloud the vision they had, which in my opinion is a solid and rare naval sim, that is fun. With time and patches, I am sure it will improve.

[Drewcifer]

It was a 19 dollar game.

Paradox is famous for buggy releases. Sword of the Stars 2 STILL isn't even Full Feature complete and its been out for what over half a year now?

Sure you paid for a product and you are entitled to complain. However I don't think you really got the short side of the deal. They sold you a product and they are currently attempting to fix it. I bought it and I have shelved it.

I feel like people are getting premature on the panic button. hell the naval sim genre is notorious for their games to not even be considered 'good' or in their 'prime' until the community has had time to mod them up anyways.

So short story- "Yes you bought a CHEAP game, its broken, but its being worked on. Give it time to mature before you have a meltdown."

[Bilge_Rat]

latest words from the Devs:

We're working on fixing it as fast as we can. As I said this issue does not turn up in any machines it has been tested on here, so we try to find a system where the problem can be observed and thus fixed. In the meantime we're improving memory management and optimizing code.



http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?602365-New-Patch-1.0.4.3-same-freeze-problem&p=13749284#post13749284

I really don't know know what more you can ask for.

I totally understand the frustation of players who cannot currently play the game, but the posters who complain that the game was released in a rushed, incomplete and/or buggy state unfortunately do not understand the nature of PC software in general or of PC gaming software in 2012.

Version 1.0 of any software will always have some technical problems, that is a fact of life. The real question is whether the developpers/publishers will support the game, fix whatever problems crop up and continue to further develop the game.

[Daniel Prates]

On this subject, many opinions (not coincidentaly, coming from people who got the game to work) fall into a generic cathegory: its a cheap game, chill out, its being worked out etc.

I would like again to stress out that the whole reason I am taking this matter so seriously is not the bug itself. Its a matter of PRICIPLE. It is the problem that this kind of rushed-out, flawed games are becoming increasingly common. It is the posture that the comunity is taking, in increasingly larger numbers, to silence complaints and treat the developers and distributors as people doing us favours.

Where this road is going to lead us? It has become so impopular do cricticize the devs, that many people has sent me private messages to agree with me. Why private? Are we afraid to say what we think, now?

[stormrider_sp]

latest words from the Devs:



http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?602365-New-Patch-1.0.4.3-same-freeze-problem&p=13749284#post13749284

I really don't know know what more you can ask for.

I totally understand the frustation of players who cannot currently play the game, but the posters who complain that the game was released in a rushed, incomplete and/or buggy state unfortunately do not understand the nature of PC software in general or of PC gaming software in 2012.

Version 1.0 of any software will always have some technical problems, that is a fact of life. The real question is whether the developpers/publishers will support the game, fix whatever problems crop up and continue to further develop the game.

You say you understand the frustration of people who can't play?
This goes to Arclight as well.

You and Arclight, are probably having a good time playing, ignoring its obvious flaws, but you are having a good time, the game is running.
I can't play! It freezes during every attempt!

What else can I say about the game?
Shouldnt I push the Panic button or wait until god knows when because they are a small team of devs...

Is it my attitude?



Cheers

[Arclight]

T'is the underhanded stuff;
I meant task force because while I´m radiating the targeted one, I´m rushing the other one to group up with the Frigate.
But you´re right, you only have to kill 2 ships and the mission terminates itself instantly.
There's no reason there to take a shot at the game because you don't like the mission end screen.

That's why I'm bothering you. Not because I think you don't have a right to complain, but because you do so in a manner that is downright offensive.


And yes, I'm perfectly familiar with not being able to play something I payed for. Silent Hunter 5, which I bought at release for easily twice the price of NWAC, was unplayable for a large amount of time. The Ubisoft servers it was shackled to went down on several occasions.

Let's not even get started on how the quality was compared to NWAC.

[0rpheus]

On this subject, many opinions (not coincidentaly, coming from people who got the game to work) fall into a generic cathegory: its a cheap game, chill out, its being worked out etc.

I would like again to stress out that the whole reason I am taking this matter so seriously is not the bug itself. Its a matter of PRICIPLE. It is the problem that this kind of rushed-out, flawed games are becoming increasingly common. It is the posture that the comunity is taking, in increasingly larger numbers, to silence complaints and treat the developers and distributors as people doing us favours.

Where this road is going to lead us? It has become so impopular do cricticize the devs, that many people has sent me private messages to agree with me. Why private? Are we afraid to say what we think, now?

While this is in some respects true, in that release of 'rushed' or incomplete games is becoming the norm in some cases - it has more to do with the relative ease of modern communications mediums (the patching process, especially when 'delivered' by a third party interface like Steam) and cash-strapped Publishers pushing devs to finish working on a game before its ready in order to recoup investments or running costs from the release. It has very little to do with the actual developers, in the great majority of cases.

While your 'take a stand' notion is a noble one, unless you can simultaneously convince a good 80% of the current gaming demographic to join in your protest, it will achieve nothing. Beyond that, it would do you credit to consider the circumstances of each game/dev/publisher independently - consider NWAC, with its team of six or so relatively independent devs under a small publisher, and corporations like Ubi, like EA and so on - the larger, 'peer' companies that actively enforce this business model.

Target your ire if you wish it to be effective, and remember that polite ire is harder to ignore than impolite.:up:

[Julhelm]

People like this julhem guy have actually helped me to prove just that. I cant understand it, really I cant.
Maybe it's because I work in game development and have first hand experience of having to ship a game no matter what and then be rewarded by usersgoing on a crusade to blast the product because they stumbled upon some bug (Apple doesn't let the really gamebreaking bugs past their review). We even had users consistently post scathing, blasting reviews on iTunes for each new patch even though we had long patched their original complaint, which was a server bug that would randomly not award XP after a match.

So yeah, take a chill pill. They've said they're trying their hardest to fix it ASAP. So be reasonable about it. Game development is a hell of a lot more difficult than you probably imagine it to be.

[stormrider_sp]

While this is in some respects true, in that release of 'rushed' or incomplete games is becoming the norm in some cases - it has more to do with the relative ease of modern communications mediums (the patching process, especially when 'delivered' by a third party interface like Steam) and cash-strapped Publishers pushing devs to finish working on a game before its ready in order to recoup investments or running costs from the release. It has very little to do with the actual developers, in the great majority of cases.

While your 'take a stand' notion is a noble one, unless you can simultaneously convince a good 80% of the current gaming demographic to join in your protest, it will achieve nothing. Beyond that, it would do you credit to consider the circumstances of each game/dev/publisher independently - consider NWAC, with its team of six or so relatively independent devs under a small publisher, and corporations like Ubi, like EA and so on - the larger, 'peer' companies that actively enforce this business model.

Target your ire if you wish it to be effective, and remember that polite ire is harder to ignore than impolite.:up:

:up:
You´re right.

[stormrider_sp]

Maybe it's because I work in game development and have first hand experience of having to ship a game no matter what and then be rewarded by usersgoing on a crusade to blast the product because they stumbled upon some bug (Apple doesn't let the really gamebreaking bugs past their review). We even had users consistently post scathing, blasting reviews on iTunes for each new patch even though we had long patched their original complaint, which was a server bug that would randomly not award XP after a match.

So yeah, take a chill pill. They've said they're trying their hardest to fix it ASAP. So be reasonable about it. Game development is a hell of a lot more difficult than you probably imagine it to be.

So is my job.
But I´ll be fired if I fail.

[Daniel Prates]

You take a chill pill, julie. I am making a valid protest, without any sort of swearing or insulting. You on the other hand have found it valid to insult me personally as a means of argument. A moderator have even shown up a dozen of posts earlier to pinch your ear for it, in case you havent noticed. This says enough about the validity of your points.

So you are a dev to, eh? Actually this explains a lot. You know, you have given me an Idea (expressly by the way). The NWAC people can afterward tank you pesonally for it. Why don't I just go to the custumers reviews page on gamersgate and steam, if indeed I am the bitchy unresonable sob you are posing me to be, and report all this nice conversations we are having? The guys from "total whatsoever" that are developing this game (under the wings of poor old paradox, which I assume must also be subject of pity from our part) can then thank you personally for that. How about it? How about new custumers seing for themselves that a complaint is responded by some random guy like you insulting me on a personal stance?

So, again, you take a chill pill, dude.

[Julhelm]

You take a chill pill, julie. I am making a valid protest, without any sort of swearing or insulting. You on the other hand have found it valid to insult me personally as a means of argument. A moderator have even shown up a dozen of posts earlier to pinch your ear for it, in case you havent noticed. This says enough about the validity of your points.

Point out exactly where I have "insulted you personally".

[0rpheus]

You take a chill pill, julie. I am making a valid protest, without any sort of swearing or insulting. You on the other hand have found it valid to insult me personally as a means of argument. A moderator have even shown up a dozen of posts earlier to pinch your ear for it, in case you havent noticed. This says enough about the validity of your points.

So you are a dev to, eh? Actually this explains a lot. You know, you have given me an Idea (expressly by the way). The NWAC people can afterward tank you pesonally for it. Why don't I just go to the custumers reviews page on gamersgate and steam, if indeed I am the bitchy unresonable sob you are posing me to be, and report all this nice conversations we are having? The guys from "total whatsoever" that are developing this game (under the wings of poor old paradox, which I assume must also be subject of pity from our part) can then thank you personally for that. How about it? How about new custumers seing for themselves that a complaint is responded by some random guy like you insulting me on a personal stance?

So, again, you take a chill pill, dude.

But you're protesting to us, here, which is useless, because none of us are involved with the game. :hmmm:

As for posting an argument with a stranger from a different forum as evidence that the NWAC guys are somehow terrible people, well now we're in bizarro-land, so I will leave you with this

http://amazingdata.com/mediadata35/Image/hot_weird_funny_amazing_cool8_bizarre-ads-leads_2009073100295613033.jpg

and wish you well! :salute:

[Sorge]

T'is the underhanded stuff;

There's no reason there to take a shot at the game because you don't like the mission end screen.

That's why I'm bothering you. Not because I think you don't have a right to complain, but because you do so in a manner that is downright offensive.

Seriously? I think you're reading a bit much in there. I didn't pick up on any attitude in that statement at all.

Reality is, people just feel different about the state of this game based on their personal experience. I see no resolution for that. Is the product perfect? No. Could it have matured more before release? Probably. Are they putting in the effort to fix and improve it? Definitely. Are we so used to buggy games that we accept mediocre quality? Most likely.

Let's agree to disagree. And if someone's bitching about the game in the forums, so what? Let the devs deal with them, it's their product to defend. My 2 centavos.

[jpinard]

On this subject, many opinions (not coincidentaly, coming from people who got the game to work) fall into a generic cathegory: its a cheap game, chill out, its being worked out etc.

I would like again to stress out that the whole reason I am taking this matter so seriously is not the bug itself. Its a matter of PRICIPLE. It is the problem that this kind of rushed-out, flawed games are becoming increasingly common. It is the posture that the comunity is taking, in increasingly larger numbers, to silence complaints and treat the developers and distributors as people doing us favours.

Where this road is going to lead us? It has become so impopular do cricticize the devs, that many people has sent me private messages to agree with me. Why private? Are we afraid to say what we think, now?

You're like the guy who cries about the quality of his $1000 Caviar while his neighbors are starving.

What pisses me off, is watching two friends die the past 2 weeks in their early 40's. One from an illness that could have been helped if he had proper health insurance. So not a lot of sympathy in my heart for your principled stance on a $20 game that has already had patches and has further patches coming. I want to live in your world where berating 6 developers for their game not being perfect "yet" is the worst I have to deal with.

No one is trying to tell you you cannoot speak, but if you're going to be this shallow - then don't whine when you're called out on it.

[jpinard]

In case you missed it on the official forum - my game has issus too (I can't get past Baltic Breakout due to it hanging). But I have a bit of decency, and understand making a game doesn't carry the same critical urgency as the software in a dialysis machine or pacemaker. I know they will fix it.

[Arclight]

Seriously? I think you're reading a bit much in there. I didn't pick up on any attitude in that statement at all.
I really don't think I am. I'm not basing it off a single post; it goes back to every post here and at Paradox. I know one of his major complaints is the way missions terminate.

Anyway, I'll throw in the towel. I've had a discusion with Daniel over at Paradox and that was perfectly civil. We both had our say, made our points and even though we don't nescesarily agree I feel we understand eachother. Sadly it doesn't work out like that with everyone.

[Daniel Prates]

I really don't think I am. I'm not basing it off a single post; it goes back to every post here and at Paradox. I know one of his major complaints is the way missions terminate.

Anyway, I'll throw in the towel. I've had a discusion with Daniel over at Paradox and that was perfectly civil. We both had our say, made our points and even though we don't nescesarily agree I feel we understand eachother. Sadly it doesn't work out like that with everyone.

Arch is absolutely right - and I should mention that from my part (and his) we have also kept it civil here too, not only there.

This past few days have been enlightening - some other guys compared this conversation to death of close ones, others to caviar.... others suddenly don't remember that they have said themselves just a few days ago and have to be quoted on themselves. It goes to show how far into neverland are opinions going these days.

I am throwing in the towell too.

[jpinard]

Arch is absolutely right - and I should mention that from my part (and his) we have also kept it civil here too, not only there.

This past few days have been enlightening - some other guys compared this conversation to death of close ones, others to caviar.... others suddenly don't remember that they have said themselves just a few days ago and have to be quoted on themselves. It goes to show how far into neverland are opinions going these days.

I am throwing in the towell too.

Both of those quotes were from me. It's not the fact you posted this here, but that you took it from another forum, made up stuff to give yourself sympathy, and in the meantime, the developers had already promised to fix the issues. You played the "victim card", and then got upset when people called you on it and out thoughts are, "why be a jerk to honest hard-working people?" You totally missed my point. I NEVER compared this thread to death, my point was: spend that anger & energy on something that deserves it.

Maybe (I hope) this is all a language issue since English may not be your first language. If so, I'll be happy to explain (in pm's) what I was trying to say so it won't be misinterpreted.

[Orm]

Daniel,

I know exactly what you are feeling as I got the same treatment from the guys of Paradox when, before the game was release, I complained about differents topics such as the lack of NTDS symbology or of ice cap on the North Pole.
As a former Harpoon, FC and DW player, I thought that in 2012 we would get a simulation that will beat the old ones, but I just saw a pale copy of those old but very sophisticate ones.
I then exrpress my doubts to Paradox, explaining that if they don't add some features they are going to lose a lot of customers (the hard-core ones), and I just got laughts from Janh and worsely from future customers.

so, I decided not to buy this game, and I see now that I WAS RIGHT.

[Bilge_Rat]

I finished campaign mission 6 over the weekend. There are a few bugs and missing features, but on the whole this is one solid simulation: radar modeling, air ops, refueling, weapon effects, AI are all very well handled.

If the developpers keep nurturing this one and every indication is that they will, NWAC is well on its way to be a classic.

[stormrider_sp]

Daniel,

I know exactly what you are feeling as I got the same treatment from the guys of Paradox when, before the game was release, I complained about differents topics such as the lack of NTDS symbology or of ice cap on the North Pole.
As a former Harpoon, FC and DW player, I thought that in 2012 we would get a simulation that will beat the old ones, but I just saw a pale copy of those old but very sophisticate ones.
I then exrpress my doubts to Paradox, explaining that if they don't add some features they are going to lose a lot of customers (the hard-core ones), and I just got laughts from Janh and worsely from future customers.

so, I decided not to buy this game, and I see now that I WAS RIGHT.

+1

It lacks what Kotler calls Brand Positioning.
“act of designing the company’s offering and image to occupy a distinctive place in the minds of target market.” Kotler

Currently it holds no positioning. Its neither a simple fun game like Naval Fields, nor is a complex simulator like Harpoon. It only tries to simplify/imitate simple games like Fleet Command, which it does poorly!

[stormrider_sp]

I finished campaign mission 6 over the weekend. There are a few bugs and missing features, but on the whole this is one solid simulation: radar modeling, air ops, refueling, weapon effects, AI are all very well handled.

If the developpers keep nurturing this one and every indication is that they will, NWAC is well on its way to be a classic.

My friend, what do you call radar modeling, when you can guide your F-35´s AMRAAMs using the information provided by that "Einsteinian Quantum Physics" datalink from a non-wire guided torpedo? Do you call that good radar modeling?

[Bilge_Rat]

+1

It lacks what Kotler calls Brand Positioning.
“act of designing the company’s offering and image to occupy a distinctive place in the minds of target market.” Kotler

Currently it holds no positioning. Its neither a simple fun game like Naval Fields, nor is a complex simulator like Harpoon. It only tries to simplify/imitate simple games like Fleet Command, which it does poorly!

This is really the blind leading the blind. Two posters who don't play the game discussing what they imagine it is about.

very useful guys, keep it up. :ping:

NWAC was not even on my Radar screen until it was released. I thought it was just some "command&Conquer/Age of Empire" type RTS. I was pleasantly surprised when I found it is an actual simulation of modern naval warfare, and a blast to play.

[jpinard]

This is really the blind leading the blind. Two posters who don't play the game discussing what they imagine it is about.

very useful guys, keep it up. :ping:

NWAC was not even on my Radar screen until it was released. I thought it was just some "command&Conquer/Age of Empire" type RTS. I was pleasantly surprised when I found it is an actual simulation of modern naval warfare, and a blast to play.

It's this same kind of idiocy that hurt the sim genre back in the Microprose days and saw the huge collapse of the sim genre. How easily people forget (or don't care). I know many people from Microprose and the game mags that reviewed them. The #1 thing that killed the genre were its own fans. After a while developing games for ungrateful, hate-mongering, death-threat spewing grognards became terribly unappealing for the low pay.

[Bilge_Rat]

My friend, what do you call radar modeling, when you can guide your F-35´s AMRAAMs using the information provided by that "Einsteinian Quantum Physics" datalink from a non-wire guided torpedo? Do you call that good radar modeling?

Wow, there is just so much wrong with this, I don't know where to start.....

1. Radar modeling: At first I thought this was a simple on/off affair like Falcon 4, but I was pleasantly surprised to see it is much more intricate. Radar detection is influenced by many factors: height, type of radar, type of target, RCS, target aspect, etc. Radar can even be blocked by land (something which is rarely modeled in sims) allowing you to use RL tactics. All in all, it is very sophisticated, targets will appear or disappear based on various factors and can even come quite close before they are detected.

2. Datalink is modeled: Considering U.S. forces have already been using a simpler system for years, full datalink of air/sea forces as modeled in NWAC should exist well before 2030;

3. "Datalink from a torpedo?": You must be thinking about how it works in "Command". :ping: There is no such thing in NWAC, you can only detect a submerged sub by sonar/sonobuoys. Currently, sub detection is a bit too easy for my taste, but the basic system is well modeled.

All in all, this is a surprising little sim. :arrgh!:

[Orm]

This is really the blind leading the blind. Two posters who don't play the game discussing what they imagine it is about.

very useful guys, keep it up. :ping:

NWAC was not even on my Radar screen until it was released. I thought it was just some "command&Conquer/Age of Empire" type RTS. I was pleasantly surprised when I found it is an actual simulation of modern naval warfare, and a blast to play.


To be honest, I started to have doubts about this product with the way its devs answer to my questions. Always referring to their lack of time, human resources and money, meaning that this simulation would/could not be very develop.
I think you can understand me, used to play with harpoon and DW that those facts did not encourage me to buy it.
You are right on one thing, this is a little sim! So do not expect any good feedbacks from hard-core naval sims players that were probably disapointed that such small game cames on when already so few naval simulations are in the market nowadays. At least, I was myself, and very much because I was really waiting for the "ultimate one".
And one thing more about the price, I think the argument it is only 20 $, so you cannot expect more is not valid. I would have been ready to pay three times this price to get something good. In this case, the price is not relevant, it is the product that you bring to the future players.

[stormrider_sp]

To be honest, I started to have doubts about this product with the way its devs answer to my questions. Always referring to their lack of time, human resources and money, meaning that this simulation would/could not be very develop.
I think you can understand me, used to play with harpoon and DW that those facts did not encourage me to buy it.
You are right on one thing, this is a little sim! So do not expect any good feedbacks from hard-core naval sims players that were probably disapointed that such small game came on when already so few naval simulations are in the market nowadays. At least, I was myself, and very much because I was really waiting for the "ultimate one".
And one thing more about the price, I think the argument it is only 20 $, so you cannot expect more is not valid. I would have been ready to pay three times this price to get something good. In this case, the price is not relevant, it is the product that you bring to the future players.

Not to mention that active sonar can listen farther than...a towed array!
lol

[Orm]

And one thing more about the price, I think the argument it is only 20 $, so you cannot expect more is not valid. I would have been ready to pay three times this price to get something good. In this case, the price is not relevant, it is the product that you bring to the future players.

and the time every player is going to spend, first to learn then to start playing and soon to see that this simulation does not respond to the expectations => time-consuming for not much at the end! :down:

[Arclight]

Perhaps an adjustment of expectations is in order? :roll:

The aim of it is and was a balance between realism and playability. If you go in expecting something else, than yes, you will be disapointed. Not any fault of the game though.

[stormrider_sp]

and the time every player is going to spend, first to learn then to start playing and soon to see that this simulation does not respond to the expectations => time-consuming for not much at the end! :down:

That´s why it was released without a mission editor, otherwise people would notice earlier them many many ultimate flaws. :damn:

[jpinard]

That´s why it was released without a mission editor, otherwise people would notice earlier them many many ultimate flaws. :damn:

Your full of crap. The mission editor isn't released because they're working on the game itself. Mission editor is an extra.

BTW - how come none of you naysayers commented on my post? About simmers being our own worst enemies and a big part of good talent leaving the genre? I LOVE how you ignore any valid arguments and just keep going. This was NEVER billed as Fleet Command 2 nor Harpoon. It is its own game. Get over it and go back to the chunky, ugly, mess of Fleet Command.

[stormrider_sp]

Your full of crap. The mission editor isn't released because they're working on the game itself. Mission editor is an extra.

BTW - how come none of you naysayers commented on my post? About simmers being our own worst enemies and a big part of good talent leaving the genre? I LOVE how you ignore any valid arguments and just keep going. This was NEVER billed as Fleet Command 2 nor Harpoon. It is its own game. Get over it and go back to the chunky, ugly, mess of Fleet Command.

But you´re really a little prick ain´t ya? It doesnt matter who, you keep insulting! Who do you think you are? Defend your own points of view but dont cross the line. How old are you anyway?

[Bilge_Rat]

To be honest, I started to have doubts about this product with the way its devs answer to my questions. Always referring to their lack of time, human resources and money, meaning that this simulation would/could not be very develop.
I think you can understand me, used to play with harpoon and DW that those facts did not encourage me to buy it.
You are right on one thing, this is a little sim! So do not expect any good feedbacks from hard-core naval sims players that were probably disapointed that such small game cames on when already so few naval simulations are in the market nowadays. At least, I was myself, and very much because I was really waiting for the "ultimate one".
And one thing more about the price, I think the argument it is only 20 $, so you cannot expect more is not valid. I would have been ready to pay three times this price to get something good. In this case, the price is not relevant, it is the product that you bring to the future players.

I understand your point of view. I also have my doubts about this sim and see certain aspects which are unfinished. For now, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, but time will tell whether it has a long term future on my hard drive.

[jpinard]

But you´re really a little prick ain´t ya? It doesnt matter who, you keep insulting! Who do you think you are? Defend your own points of view but dont cross the line. How old are you anyway?

Once again, I did not insult you and you are the one(s) instigating issues. For goodness sakes, this is a thread with the word "bitch" in its title. You call me a "prick" AND you have the gall to say I'm childish?

If anyone crossed the line it was you sir, as you just violated the TOS here at subsim.

[Orm]

I understand your point of view. I also have my doubts about this sim and see certain aspects which are unfinished. For now, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, but time will tell whether it has a long term future on my hard drive.

:up:

[Julhelm]

I was really waiting for the "ultimate one".
Keep waiting, is all I can say. I don't think we're going to see any big ultrahardcore or even lite sim anytime soon, for all of the reasons that have already been outlined in this thread and elsewhere.

It's occurred to me before that if people took all the time they spent bitching and complaining about sims into something constructive like programming, the sim genre wouldn't be as dead as it is. I for one have never been able to find a programmer interested in subs to collaborate with but there seems to be no shortage of people who spend copious amounts of their spare time complaining about the lack of this or that feature.

In the end you can either bitch and spew bile at big publishers who don't care or get down and dirty and DIY.

[Orm]

Keep waiting, is all I can say. I don't think we're going to see any big ultrahardcore or even lite sim anytime soon, for all of the reasons that have already been outlined in this thread and elsewhere.


So, if I follow you, I don't have the right to complain and just buy what is coming even if it is bad!!:hmmm:

BTW, I am waiting for Command and hope that I will get to heaven with it. :yeah:

[Julhelm]

So, if I follow you, I don't have the right to complain and just buy what is coming even if it is bad!!:hmmm:
No, that's not what I said.

[jpinard]

So, if I follow you, I don't have the right to complain and just buy what is coming even if it is bad!!:hmmm:

BTW, I am waiting for Command and hope that I will get to heaven with it. :yeah:

It seems to me the people complaining the most are those following "Command" the closest. It's sad to me because if this same attitude permeated Torchlight (a lite Diablo) we would not be getting the amazing Torchlight 2. People took Torchlight for what it was and didn't spew hate and anti-purchase vibes because it didn't have everything Diablo has.

Now - with many of us disappointed that Diablo 3 is a massive cash grab by Blizzard, Torchlight 2 may actually be the better game in its own right. That would not have happened if there'd been people running around to every forum complaining about how the game isn't exactly Diablo to dissuade other interested parties from buying it.

I guess I can't understand how you 3 think you're helping anything with your actions?

[mapuc]

An offtopic question

What is this command, some of you are talking about?

Markus

[jpinard]

An offtopic question

What is this command, some of you are talking about?

Markus

Click the gigantic banner in stormrider's profile: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1879220&postcount=55

[Elektroniikka-Asentaja]

This whole thread is totally ridiculous.

I understand if nobody has heard of game called F1 2010 from Codemasters but listen a little story.

That game can do only one thing and it is making you seriously consider doing a suicide with a cheese slicer after 10 minutes of playing because even that would be more enjoyable.

The player community go tell Codemasters that your game cheats even against itself, the AI laptimes are random-generated and not related to the real game at all. What does Codemasters say?

"It was the only way to do it because we have the time compression system (in tests and qualifications) and the game (or physics engine, which by the way was one of the worst I've ever seen) can't handle cars moving on the track if the time is fast forwarded so we decided to guess the approximate times for each driver and use them."

After everyone had laughed their arses off and realized that they actually weren't going to fix anything the players brought up another thing: Your car will stay in the pit stop until there is no AI cars in the whole pit area so your pitstops may take 20-40 seconds because you have to wait for every other moving car to pass you.

Codemasters didn't even reply to that and as far as I know there never was any kind patch for the game to even get rid of things like getting sucked inside a wall when driving close enough.

Now what I'm trying to say here is that Nitro Games have those 6 guys sitting in some abandoned steel hall (well not literally but almost) and making their first game. The game has some problems with certain hardware/software combination and the developers are doing full day job to find what is the problem plus they are communicating with the players, the community all the time and listening to them to fix it faster.

On the other end, Codemasters have probably hundreds of developers, over 10 years of experience in game making and still they develop a game that has game breaking bugs, things that occur to everyone in every game and can be fixed with adjusting a few in game files. Still they don't move a finger to do anything for it.

I don't want to make this personal against anyone but people, get some realism into this. This is ridiculous.


And before someone asks about it, no, I don't own NWAC. Yet. I forgot to preorder it and now I will wait for a while to let all the fuzz go off and then buy a game that is patched and working. After that I will thank the community that helped in finding the problems and show either middle finger or ass to rest of the people who start s***storms like this instead of trying to keep it civil and help everyone.


Thanks, bye, whatever you want
- Wave :salute:

EDIT: Realized that I just used wrong nickname... :har:

[Orm]

And before someone asks about it, no, I don't own NWAC. Yet. I forgot to preorder it and now I will wait for a while to let all the fuzz go off and then buy a game that is patched and working. After that I will thank the community that helped in finding the problems and show either middle finger or ass to rest of the people who start s***storms like this instead of trying to keep it civil and help everyone.
EDIT: Realized that I just used wrong nickname... :har:

Then lets hope that they are to fix this game otherwise you are going to wait very long time.

[LemonA]

Tested the demo. When i try to stop a vessel (0 kts) the game freezes. Unplayablel demo.