View Full Version : Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?
Onkel Neal
04-20-12, 06:16 PM
Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly? (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/health/bicycle-injuries/index.html?hpt=hp_c2)
They say bicyclists have a right to the road same as cars, but common sense would dictate otherwise. I never understood bicycle enthusiasts who casually pedal along in the middle of a lane, acting like there's no hazard here, while 4000 lb cars roar past. Dude, you are only going 18 mph in a 45, get outta the way! :O:
Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.
As a motorcycle rider who never gets in the way of traffic, I also never ride along with that bicyclist mentality: I have a right to be here. Baloney. I am a motorcycle rider, I am faster than cagers, but I can be killed 25 times more likely, and I ride that way. Bicyclists should rethink their attitude. When it's you and a car, the car always has the right of way.
And bicyclists are surprised when they get run over. I bet squirrels and possums feel the same way.
Takeda Shingen
04-20-12, 06:23 PM
I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.
Platapus
04-20-12, 06:39 PM
In an accident between a bike and a car, even a tie is bad news for the rider.
nikimcbee
04-20-12, 06:46 PM
Just for you Neal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nMnr8ZirI
Skybird
04-20-12, 06:53 PM
Hit-and-run, called "Fahrerflucht" over here, would bring you into very serious legal trouble if you get caught, the same for "unterlassene Hilfeleistung".
Many communities and cities in Germany since longer time invested into building special bicycle infrastructure, from the marks on the road that rdeserve a small lane only for bikes, to own lanes between car road and pedestrian's pavement. Also, rights and prohibitions are quite clearly regulated over here.
Problem is that many people behave stupid and careless when riding a bicycle, and do things they would not do in a car. Jumping red traffic lights, stopping not at the halt-line but driving almost onto the crossroad and then blicking the crossing bike traffic. Cutting the corner and the others have to emergency-brake. Driving rude, in dense crowds, almost assaulting pedestrians. Driving alcoholised, and so on.
Sidelanes must be used over here only when a traffic sign calls for that, else you have the choice whether to use that or the main road. Using sidelanes on the other side of the road is prohibited in general if not allowed by a traffic sign.
It depends on the place. Some cities have embedded bike-friendly infrastructure into their general traffic infrastructure, others lag behind. I have the luck that I live in an extremely bicycle-friendly city with plenty of specialised infrastrucre for bikes both inside and outside of town. It is the most bicycle-friendly town in Germany and one of the two or three cities in all europe that have more bikes than any other european city, competing for this ranking with Amsterdam and Copenhagen only.
The growing rate of bicycle accidents we have involves many children. The rise also can be explaiojned becasue the number of bicycle riders rises i general: more and mor epeople prefer it as an alternative to using a car or public transportation over typical in-town distances.
My advise: obey relevant traffic rules the very same way you would obey them when driving a car. Drive defensively, and not in the middle of the lane, but at the side. Do not scare pedestrians, and give up the right of way generously instead of enforcing it without any need - saves your nerves. Search eye contact with car drivers. Be friendly - you'll be surprised how often I see my smile or gesture getting returned from car drivers or bus drivers. Have good lights and brakes, always in good condition. Behave predictable.
The only people in traffic that give me trouble time and again - are bicycle riders. And when they come in a Rudel, I ring general quarters immediately. A holiday group of bicycle riders is a nightmare, since all cognitive functions and cortical activity get supressed the more the bigger the Rudel is.
u crank
04-20-12, 06:53 PM
I feel sorry for the people in the link who were killed or injured but I have to ask this question: Who has the 'right' to the road? Here and I suspect it is the same in most places, I have to pay to drive on the roads. I have to register my vehicle, get a drivers license, buy insurance, and get my car inspected and repaired yearly. A pedestrian or cyclist gets a free pass.
Until cyclists pay the same as I do, I believe I have the right to the road. That being said I have to watch out for these people and some of them think they are invincible. So please watch out for the people who pay to use the road.
mookiemookie
04-20-12, 07:08 PM
Agreed. Bike riders are a hazard, regardless of how entitled they feel to the road. They're slower than traffic, they cause dangerous situations by forcing cars to go around them or slow to a crawl behind them, and they should be relegated to designated bike lanes.
I can understand why they aren't allowed on sidewalks - they can injure pedestrians, because they're bigger and faster than them. Kind of like the same way that cars are when they're in the street.
One of the CNN commenters on that article said it best:
"The laws of man may favor you, but the laws of physics mean in any altercation you will be a pancake."
Skybird
04-20-12, 07:12 PM
I feel sorry for the people in the link who were killed or injured but I have to ask this question: Who has the 'right' to the road? Here and I suspect it is the same in most places, I have to pay to drive on the roads. I have to register my vehicle, get a drivers license, buy insurance, and get my car inspected and repaired yearly. A pedestrian or cyclist gets a free pass.
Until cyclists pay the same as I do, I believe I have the right to the road. That being said I have to watch out for these people and some of them think they are invincible. So please watch out for the people who pay to use the road.
Sorry, but usually roads are no car-exclusive territory, although some car-maniacs tend to think so. Roads get maintained and payed and payed for by the general tax pool, btw, and taxes on gasoline are not exclusively tied to the purpose of being spend for car infrastructure. What you need to invest into your car's technical reliability, is just this: car reliability and security so that you do not move around in a rolling weapon that can go lose any moment and poses a mobile risk to other people. For the same reason, a bicycle needs to be maintained as well.
We live in a car-crazy world. But crowded city centers do not suffer when putting that insanity up for debate. The traffic jams, stinking emissions, noise and shortages in parking lots do not get caused by bicycles, but too many cars. ;)
Ducimus
04-20-12, 07:15 PM
In a court of law, yeah sure, the dude on the bycicle has the right of way. However- the universal rule of the road is the same regardless of laws or countries..... That universal rules is:
He who's biggest wins.
A court of law isn't going to do you any good if your dead.
Skybird
04-20-12, 07:18 PM
Agreed. Bike riders are a hazard, regardless of how entitled they feel to the road. They're slower than traffic, they cause dangerous situations by forcing cars to go around them or slow to a crawl behind them, and they should be relegated to designated bike lanes.
I can understand why they aren't allowed on sidewalks - they can injure pedestrians, because they're bigger and faster than them. Kind of like the same way that cars are when they're in the street.
One of the CNN commenters on that article said it best:
"The laws of man may favor you, but the laws of physics mean in any altercation you will be a pancake."
Maybe car drivers need to alter their attitude of mind. You guys just illustrate it: you seriously claim an exclusive right of cars for streets and roads. Well, at least in this we are already several steps ahead of you, then, and not just in my town.
The daily car madness in Germany happens not in the cities, but on the Autobahnen. The projectiles you sometimes can see there behave as if they are rolling mental asylums holding John Rambo in a fever dream. It is high time to get an absolute speed limit here of let's say 120 km/h or so.
Skybird
04-20-12, 07:25 PM
We have had an interesting experiment in some small towns in germany, I think they tried the same in Denmark or Holland, I am not sure.
They banned all traffic signs, all traffic lights, and lifted all regulations on who can use which poart of the street. Most traffic rules and laws also were lifted. No more "right before left", and so on.
The results were surprising.
The situation meant that everybody took more care, and establioshed eye contact with the others. Everybody was forced to be aware, to be defensive, and passive. Less traffic jams, steeply falling accident rates. A more relaxed traffic climate, people stayed more relaxed. And people: pedestrioans, cars, bicycles, motorbikes, they all formed a self-organising structure by which traffic regulated itself.
It was for the benefit of the single individual and the benefit of all. Possible tough that cars were no longer able to see the road as their private highspeed racetrack pattern. I think that loss is acceptable.
Go with the flow:haha:
http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/india-traffic-2009-10-6-8-10-52.jpg
When i get to cycle from time to time i like to stay a bit off the sidewalk because of parked cars and to be seen.
Sailor Steve
04-20-12, 07:38 PM
Here in Salt Lake we have bike paths and bike trails, and bike lanes on most public streets. Also wide sidewalks and though the law says otherwise nobody cares if the cyclists use them as long as they don't run into any pedestrians, since it's obviously safer than a busy street. I here cyclists complain about how drivers treat them badly, but then I see bike riders ignore laws like red lights and stop signs.
I still don't have a car, so I ride the bus or I ride my bike. And when I ride the first rule of the road for me is "They really are out to get me". I'm very scrupulous about the law, especially when I could be part of that other old saying: "You could be right. Dead right."
u crank
04-20-12, 07:42 PM
Sorry, but usually roads are no car-exclusive territory, although some car-maniacs tend to think so. Roads get maintained and payed and payed for by the general tax pool, btw, and taxes on gasoline are not exclusively tied to the purpose of being spend for car infrastructure. What you need to invest into your car's technical reliability, is just this: car reliability and security so that you do not move around in a rolling weapon that can go lose any moment and poses a mobile risk to other people. For the same reason, a bicycle needs to be maintained as well.
We live in a car-crazy world. But crowded city centers do not suffer when putting that insanity up for debate. The traffic jams, stinking emissions, noise and shortages in parking lots do not get caused by bicycles, but too many cars. ;)
I believe you missed my point Skybird. I have to pass a drivers exam and then pay to have it renewed. Cyclists don't. I have to insure myself and my vehicle for liability if I injure someone else. Cyclists don't. I am forced by law to maintain my vehicle in safe working order. Cyclists are not.
I believe that if cyclists had to pay to use the road you would see a lot less of them. If cyclists had to prove that they know the rules of the road you would see less of them. If cyclists had to buy liability insurance you would see less of them.
This particular argument has nothing to do with pollution or too many cars but about common sense.
Sailor Steve
04-20-12, 07:46 PM
^ ^ ^ :yep:
Also, at least here in the States, yearly registration includes a tax which goes to maintaining the roads. Motorists pay for the upkeep, cyclists don't.
Maybe car drivers need to alter their attitude of mind. You guys just illustrate it: you seriously claim an exclusive right of cars for streets and roads.
A drivers "attitude" has nothing to do with it. It's only common sense that you segregate vehicles of such radically different size and speed.
As Mookie points out bicyclists are prevented from riding on sidewalks because of the danger to pedestrians so should roads be reserved for cars and trucks.
Back in January I got hit by a US Mail truck, don't know how she didn't see me along the street ride-ing toward her as she was turning right, that was right into to me it was a slow hit but it knock me 10 feet off my seat into a grassy bank, no injuries to bad for me missed the lottery, people say I should ride with the flow of traffic, not on your life I'm going to have my back to these distracted drivers I'm going to be looking right into the eyes of the moron that hits me.
soopaman2
04-20-12, 08:01 PM
I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.
They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.
They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.
Spend A week in NYC, and see the crap the couriers pull in traffic, and get a free pass on, before you critisize me.
Then again with all of Bloomburgs crap, this will be judged ok, just like his 3rd term that he critisized Rudy Guiliani over, when he was city council...Oh no I insulted a loved politician.! (who owns his own news outlet)
krashkart
04-20-12, 08:14 PM
Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.
That's what common sense should dictate, but something must be overriding their common sense. Won't catch me playing around in traffic on a bicycle, that's for sure. I don't trust other drivers. :shifty:
I give a wide berth to any cyclists I see on the road. Sure they don't belong on a 45mph industrial access road. But it's their life on the line and they're free to ride that road with the dump trucks and semis if that's what they really want to do. Crazy SOB's.
Stealhead
04-20-12, 08:26 PM
I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.
They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.
They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.
Spend A week in NYC, and see the crap the couriers pull in traffic, and get a free pass on, before you critisize me.
Then again with all of Bloomburgs crap, this will be judged ok, just like his 3rd term that he critisized Rudy Guiliani over, when he was city council...Oh no I insulted a loved politician.! (who owns his own news outlet)
You would have to ask an LE officer but I am fairly sure that stops signs do apply to those riding bikes so from a legal stand pint if a cyclist rode though a stop sign or traffic light and he got hit it is their fault.
According to this PDF for Florida cops they can enforce the same laws on cyclists so they do have to stop at any stop sign or light at least in FL.Yubba should read the second bullet point in this PDF closely you actually violated a law by the way so you would have gotten nothing sorry and why in the world would you expect anyone to see you if you assume that they are distracted they certainly are not going to be looking for you.Like it says many drivers do not expect to see anything going against traffic flow and you are only on a small bike so all things considered you greatly increase the odds of being hit.
http://ci.ftlaud.fl.us/pedsafety/bicycle_guide.pdf
em2nought
04-20-12, 09:57 PM
We have had an interesting experiment in some small towns in germany, I think they tried the same in Denmark or Holland, I am not sure.
They banned all traffic signs, all traffic lights, and lifted all regulations on who can use which poart of the street. Most traffic rules and laws also were lifted. No more "right before left", and so on.
The results were surprising.
The situation meant that everybody took more care, and establioshed eye contact with the others. Everybody was forced to be aware, to be defensive, and passive. Less traffic jams, steeply falling accident rates. A more relaxed traffic climate, people stayed more relaxed. And people: pedestrioans, cars, bicycles, motorbikes, they all formed a self-organising structure by which traffic regulated itself.
It was for the benefit of the single individual and the benefit of all. Possible tough that cars were no longer able to see the road as their private highspeed racetrack pattern. I think that loss is acceptable.
Do that in Florida and we'd all end up dead. LOL
Oh, and I think the average bike rider in FL has lost his driver's license to DUI. :D
Onkel Neal
04-20-12, 09:58 PM
I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.
Yes, and that's how bike riders could help themselves. I'm sure many do, but very often I come up behind a fellow who is counting on me to see him. And as a MC rider, that's flirting with disaster. Riding on 2 wheels takes defensive driving to a whole new level; I call it combat riding--it's a fight to the death and I win by not letting them smear me across the tarmac.
I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.
They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.
They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.
It's my goal to avoid hitting any bicycle riders, but I agree with you, they should do their part to make it easier not to hit them.
Stealhead
04-20-12, 10:19 PM
I live in Florida in a rural county and as far I can recall over the past 10 or so years every fatal motor vehicle vs bike incident the cycle rider was found at fault almost every time they where intoxicated or under the influence of some drug.
One guy had actually been charged for a DUI(or what ever riding a bike while intoxicated is it is illegal) but what can they do beyond fine you take your bike away?Anyway this fellow actually had been hit more than once before as well obviously he survived the previous encounters at any rate every time the guy was drunk and all over the road and either suddenly rode into traffic (he always rode at night with no lights of any kind in dark clothing) or rode into the sides of vehicles.
I also have a friend that is a paramedic in volusia county(Daytona Beach) and he says that the overwhelming majority of motor vehicle vs bike accidents are the riders fault or both where at fault.
I am not being anti bike rider but they need to ride safely and extremely defensively like a good motorcyclist does they should assume that no one sees them and always be alert.
nikimcbee
04-20-12, 11:19 PM
I didn't know Texas had those militant biker types, well, maybe in Austin. They're the ones in the video. Yo find them in Seattle, Portlandia, and San Fran:dead:.
On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.:dead:
kraznyi_oktjabr
04-21-12, 01:21 AM
On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.:dead:Is there statute for removing from office due lunacy? :nope:
Skybird
04-21-12, 05:16 AM
A drivers "attitude" has nothing to do with it. It's only common sense that you segregate vehicles of such radically different size and speed.
As Mookie points out bicyclists are prevented from riding on sidewalks because of the danger to pedestrians so should roads be reserved for cars and trucks.Feee free to establish separate sidelanes for bikes, it is common over here anyway.
But where there are no such lanes, bicycles should be forbidden? Well, they are. On Autobahnen.
A sepaarted ölane for bikes, or allowing them to drive on buslanes, is desirable. we even have some streets over here that got turned from car-streets into bicycle streets (I remember the outcry of card drivers when they did that :D).
But in towns, ordinary streets that have no sidelanes, may bicycles be allowed to drive there? Yes, absolutely.
And driver attitude has all to do with it. Car drivers can anticipate situation in ntraffic they may be confronted with, or can be arorgant and ignore that, believing they own the road for themsaelves. Like bicycle riders. And like bike riders, card rivers can drive slow, careful and cautiously, or fast, aggressively, and not giving a dman for the other.
There are roads, though, where a bicycle rider may be well-advised to seek for an altenrtaive route. But after 30 years of expereince, I say this: the deciding factor is not so much the ammount of traffic, but the condition of the street surface and the width of the lanes. Of course I know streets where I would not drive althouigh I would be allowed to. But at last over here or even in Berlin, the majority of streets is such that bike-riding can be done easily. As logn as you do not meet Rambo on wheels, of course. But then the problem is not the bike, but Rambo, and he poses a thread not just to bikes, but tpo pedestrians and other cars as well. Again- the attitude is what decides it.
And driver attitude has all to do with it. Car drivers can anticipate situation in ntraffic they may be confronted with, or can be arorgant and ignore that, believing they own the road for themsaelves. Like bicycle riders. And like bike riders, card rivers can drive slow, careful and cautiously, or fast, aggressively, and not giving a dman for the other..
Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.
Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.
I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.
u crank
04-21-12, 09:13 AM
Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.
Exactly!
Example: To enter my subdivision on way home from work I have to make a left turn across two lanes of traffic. The posted speed limit is 70 km/hr. Most people are doing 80 or more. On more than one occasion I have been behind bikers trying to make this turn. Crazy! I just close my eyes and pray. And it's unnecessary. There's a side walk on the other side of the road.
Cyclists should not be competing for the same road space with cars. Period!
Fincuan
04-21-12, 09:39 AM
What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9F9_RUESS2E/S7tbclwxiPI/AAAAAAAACmw/uI1bCpNuKNA/s800/picoftheday0012-space-60people.jpg
I own one car and three bikes, and choose to ride a bike whenever I can. Not for environmental or ideological reasons, but because it's the fastest and most convenient means of transportation in my city and also provides plenty of "free" excercise in place of hours spent sitting in a car or a bus. My daily commute is normally 10-20 km each way. Whenever it isn't possible to use a bike, for example when I'm going to an important meeting at a place where it isn't possible to shower and change clothes, I use public transportation. The car is 2001 model and only used for occasional climbing trips and other road trips. Given how much I've been using it I'll most likely sell it during the summer. It's just easier and cheaper to rent or borrow one when I need it.
Finnish winter isn't a big problem when you use a fatbike (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c72cNJhr_sU/TyLMQKhrwMI/AAAAAAAABmA/IPgMcfPCIso/s800/2012-01-27%252017.31.34.jpg) as your main commuter. You just need to leave a bit earlier when there's lots of snow and put a little bit of thought on what you wear. The bikepaths and -lanes are maintained year around, and even after the worst snowshowers the most important transportation veins are cleared by early afternoon. Not that an uncleared one is a huge obstacle when riding a fatbike.
I mainly ride on the parts of the road network designed for bikes, but sometimes it just isn't possible or safe. I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic. At times you just don't have a real choice, for example when you ride in the city center with plenty of pedestrians all over the place, including the parts meant for cars and bikes. Winter maintenance is also sometimes an issue. Not the lack of it, but the way it's done: Snow is plowed off the main lanes and onto the bicycle lanes. Even a fatbike won't carry you over half a meter layer of soft sludge.
Would you prefer your daily commute to be this(pic not mine)?
http://www.vastavalo.fi/albums/userpics/13039/normal_20090220_IMG_9609.jpg
or this(a real pic from my ride home)?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cv-JwdNlgdY/T1TU52ZkcnI/AAAAAAAABss/3H8GlxfyOSs/s800/Photo0023.jpg
Onkel Neal
04-21-12, 09:40 AM
Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then.
That's pretty much the reality. May as well argue that skateboarders and speedjoggers have a right to clog up the road.
Fincuan, I agree with you about cars clogging up the road, I agree 100%. As a motorcycle rider, I spend plenty of time waiting patiently for slow-witted drivers to get out of the way. But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.
They aren't going to switch to motorcycles either, which would be the ideal situation ;)
I try to avoid riding among the cars as far as possible, mainly because of the already mentioned laws of physics and the "bigger size gives you the right of way"-attitude of some drivers. I just don't feel safe doing it when there's lots of traffic.
Smart man, that's the way you should feel, cause it's true.
And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2
In any situation, the car has the right of way. Every vehicle on the road is out to get you. You're a fighter pilot on two wheels and you better start thinking like one. No matter who has the red light, stop sign, or right of way, it's your responsibility as a motorcycle rider (or bicycle rider) to see the enemy, anticipate his every move, and keep yourself out of his grill. If you have an accident, it's always through your lack of skill, caution, and awareness. It's always your fault.
AngusJS
04-21-12, 09:40 AM
Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).
If there are no bike paths, and the shoulder is occupied by parked cars (as it always is in a city), then biking will be impossible if you can't use the road. And given the typical underfunding of public transportation in the US, and the usual braindead anti-pedestrian planning, you'll be forced to buy a motor vehicle - and do your bit to contributing to traffic congestion, pollution, global warming and the overuse of fossil fuels.
Skybird
04-21-12, 09:52 AM
Well unless we adopt Vermonts old traffic law of requiring a flag man to walk 50ft out in front of every automobile to warn off other traffic, accidents will continue to happen no matter how careful car and truck drivers may be.
Bicycles are just too slow and small to share the road with motorized vehicles without incidents if the speed limit is more than 15mph and even then. All it takes is a moments distraction on either ones part and a collisions will happen, with almost all of the damage going to the bicyclist.
I'd like to see them reconfigure existing pedestrian sidewalks into allow dual use and build more Bike/pedestrian only pathways. They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.
As I said, build a parallel infrastructure for bicycles, okay. We did it over here. Seopaarte lanes on the road, additonal lanes that were build, combined pedestrian-bike-lanes with extra width, roads for bikes (cars banned if people do not live there). The network is over 500 km in total length, town and surrounding area.
Where ther eis no such bike-infrastructure, bikes use the road. Where there is no pedestrian lane, pedestrians use roads, the sidelines, though. It'S daily business all over in Germany, even on Landstrassen.
Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.
Point is: you weant bikes off main traffic streets - then you have to offer reasonable alternatives. I am not eager to get stuck in the smog and jams on a main traffic street at rush hour, I happily use an alternative lane. But if there is none, then I am not shy to jump right into the middle of the hotcooking traffic. But I be predictable, defensively, and careful, and I establish eye contact with drivers whereever possible. I hardly, if ever, get an angry look. Truth is: problems are set up by - other aggressive bicycle drivers, almost never by car drivers.
In places where there are no bicycle lanes, car drivers must be prepared to interct with bicycle on the road. Idf theyx cannot be that or do not want to be like that, then they should give back their driving licences, for by character they probably are not suited to command a rolling potential wepaon. :arrgh!: To some degree, driving styles of car drivers reflect their personality and emtional status. And that of bicycle riders as well.
Accidents will happen, but if bikes therefore must be banned, then much faster moving motorbikes must be banned as well by your logic, and small cars, since a truck or a SUV will just smash and crush them, too. All rolling traffic should be done in huge trucks or APC only, then. And even then a crash will hurt and kill people.
Onkel Neal
04-21-12, 09:55 AM
That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).
Ah, so bicycle riders cannot take care not to hit slower moving traffic? ;)
What many drivers seem to ignore when going on a crusade against cyclists is this:
A couple things with that though.
First what may work in Finland isn't necessarily possible here. I live 20 miles away from my job and my our standards that's a fairly short commute, most of it on 40 and 50mph roads that hardly has a shoulder let alone a bike lane. At age 52 I am not doing a 40 mile a day bike trip to get to work.
Second I don't want to be packed in like canned herring with a bunch of smelly strangers. Look at the street where those pictures were taken. People living cheek to jowl with not a single tree in sight or blade of grass in sight. There is no amount of money in the world that would make me give up my back yard for the concrete jungle.
krashkart
04-21-12, 09:56 AM
They have one up this way in Rhode Island using an abandoned railroad bed that runs through a dozen communities. It'd be a beautiful way to get to work except in the winter and even then they are pretty good about keeping the pathway plowed out.
Iowa has quite a few similar bike trails that link a whole bunch of communities together. A lot of them follow old rail lines.
http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/trails/trails.asp
When the weather warms up I might take my bike down a few of those. :up:
Just ordering bikes onto the pedestrian's sidepath, does not work for an additional reason: at every corner there would be the need to stop and get off, due to the heigth of the curbstones. You would need to have construction work getting done again. And if you do that, then you can go one step further and also invest into building a whole bicycle lane.
You folks don't have wheelchair accessible sidewalks? Over here nearly every corner and crosswalk has a ramp that is easily negotiated by a bicycle.
That's a horrible idea. Bikes are so quiet that pedestrians don't know that they're there until they're right next to them (if they approach from behind).
But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?
I do however have a solution that might work with pedestrians though.
Two words: Baseball cards. :yep:
Yep, clothespin a few of your doubles into the tire spokes of a bike and a pedestrian would have to be deaf not to hear it coming! I advocate a similar solution for those quiet hybrid and electric cars which have been sneaking up on walkers lately.
Onkel Neal
04-21-12, 10:15 AM
But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?
You, my friend, should be a lawyer.
Oh wait, I was planning to ban you for that Suzuki crack.... :doh:
You, my friend, should be a lawyer.
Oh wait, I was planning to ban you for that Suzuki crack.... :doh:
But i've owned two Zukes so I get to badmouth them and got the broken bones and road rash to illustrate it! :DL
But if you want real insults let me tell you my Saab Story some time. A 1974 99EMS is not a car built for long distances. :x
Skybird
04-21-12, 10:55 AM
Electric pedelecs, as they are called, and electric choppers (Vespa style, not helicopters). Scooters they are getting called also, could that be? For urban traffic, the daily pendling in town, these are great things. Batteries need to become a bit more potent though. The big metropoles will see more traffic in the future, and more people moving there, so solutions and concepts to get rid of the ridiculously high car drensity are in urgent need. Small vehicles that are a hybrid between bicycles, tribikes and a small car like the Smart, could be a solution, maybe.
Kettweasels with battery, so to speak. I wonder if Kettweasel maybe already has developed one.
In Germany, pedelecs limited to a top speed with motor assistance of 25 km/h, are free and are treated as normal bicycles, beyond that speed (motor assistance even beyoind 25 km/h) they need a tax plate, and helm, and must use the road, since they are treated as choppers/scooters then. A license then also is obligatory (normally included in the normal car license).
u crank
04-21-12, 12:01 PM
This thread has me thinking about the subject of safety and personal responsibility. I grew up in the era of no seat belts, bicycle helmets etc. I remember going on family vacations, my two brothers and I in the back seat of the family sedan. We could wrestle, stand up and every once in a while Dad would yell, "hey light me a cigarette!" Not kidding. We felt safe because I think for the most part we were.
On the other hand, today people walk on the side of the road texting on their phones. They drive around with small dogs on their lap. They ride bicycles while listening to music. And yes they drive cars as if they have a divine right to the road. I lived in Toronto for several years and I could cross any street without stopping traffic. Today I see people standing by the side of a street waiting to cross. And I don't mean kids, these are adults. You have to stop for them. This is not at a crosswalk. Have we lost some kind of basic skill here? Maybe I'm just an old guy who's out of touch but people seem more reckless, yet less skilled at common sense issues.
Is it just me?:06:
em2nought
04-21-12, 12:24 PM
Is it just me?:06:
Or idiocracy? :D
AngusJS
04-21-12, 12:56 PM
Ah, so bicycle riders cannot take care not to hit slower moving traffic? ;)Most cars are incapable of instantaneous stops or sudden turns.
They cannot enter the flow of traffic without yielding.
They also normally all travel in the same direction in their lane.
They also normally have brake lights.
None of which applies to pedestrians.
:)
AngusJS
04-21-12, 01:11 PM
But if a person walking out in the open can't detect the approach of a bicycle then how can we expect the driver inside a car to do any better?http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6289/rearviewmirror014.jpg
:)
Yep, clothespin a few of your doubles into the tire spokes of a bike and a pedestrian would have to be deaf not to hear it coming! I advocate a similar solution for those quiet hybrid and electric cars which have been sneaking up on walkers lately.I agree. If bikes are to be relegated to sidewalks, then I think noisemakers should be compulsory.
Fincuan
04-21-12, 03:28 PM
But at least cars can make it up to 30mph (if you give them enough time), bicycles are very slow, and hard to see. It's not a crusade against bicycles, but be realistic--people are not going to switch in mass to pedaling along at 15mph when they have to transit 20 miles.
...
And bigger does = right of way, remember rule #2
Ah yeah, I forgot that you ride a lot too, just on a different kind of platform. More speed but just as unprotected. Really motivates you to have those eyes in the back of the head, eh?
I agree that people aren't ever going to commute 20 miles on bikes en masse, but then again such distances aren't really optimal for biking vs. other means of transportation what comes to time used, an important factor when commuting. Bikes shine as commuters in cramped city centers where the average commute is a lot less than 20 miles. Not that it's easy to motivate people to pedal even that kind of distance: I'm currently studying for a profession where staying fit is of utmost importance for getting the job done, certain requirements even come straight from the law, and yet only a few on the course or those already on the profession commute by pedaling or running. Especially during the winter I get those "Dude, what planet did you come from?" looks when arriving at school.
@August:
What you're seeing in the pic I posted is a pretty average European city center. In Finland we don't build them quite that cramped, but close. If people didn't commute using their feet, bikes and public transportation we'd drown in cars in no time. At least in Helsinki it's demonstrated every time the bus, tram and metro drivers go on a strike: Vehicles start queing up way outside the suburbs and it takes hours to make it to the city center. The next strike is coming up in a week or so by the way. I'll try to get some pics so you'll see that California isn't only place where the traffic is sometimes just impossible. :)
Skybird
04-21-12, 04:11 PM
Only John Wayne on horse and with a Winchester shall be allowed on roads. :yeah:
This eternal battle between motorists and cyclists are not restricted to America, I can understand.
Ever since I took my license, I have been interested in the psychological part of driving.
I ride my bike very much and I am very aware of my road safety.
I tend also to be aware of others' driving psychology.
It has happened that I went up to my old driving instructors and asked him if every men have this "built in" needs to show off when they have female and or male passengers with them.
Have also been aware of the soft traffic ancestors and it is frightening to see how they behave in traffic.
That we (Denmark and Sweden) do not have thousands of dead or injured cyclists / walking, they can thank their luck and that most of the DRIVERS do SEE where they drive
Sometime in mid or late 80s There was in Sweden talks about introducing psychological tests of upcoming male motorists. This proposal failed to win sympathy of the politicians. The reason would be that they had estimated that, up to 90-95% of the 18-year-old would not be suitable for driving a car. (They would use the same type of psychological test as the Swedish Air Force use)
Markus
Skybird
04-21-12, 05:52 PM
I tend also to be aware of others' driving psychology.
It has happened that I went up to my old driving instructors and asked him if every men have this "built in" needs to show off when they have female and or male passengers with them.
(...)
Sometime in mid or late 80s There was in Sweden talking about introducing psychological tests of upcoming male motorists. This was never up to the first treatment in the Riksdag. The reason would be that they had counted up to 90-95% of the 18-year-old would not be suitable for driving a car. (They would use the same type of psychological test as the Swedish Air Force use)
Markus
Psychologically and physiologically as well, young males are indeed hormone junkeys. It makes them more aggressive, more willing to accept risks and behave in a risky manner, more provoking regarding conflict situations, more boasting in general attitude - and very vulnerable to the experience of speed. It's the same what you see when the male paradise bird spreads its feathers to attract a female birds. You see, in the end we are just talking animals. That is the reason why boys try to attract girls by risky behaviour, by stunts being done, and by their driving style. It is not just lacking experience why young drivers cause more accidents than other age groups, and here the boys more than the girls. Boy sees girl, and the chemical switches flip - you cannot avoid it, that is how the biological hardware got designed by ol' mother nature. It'S all about hormones and neurotransmitter levels.
Skybird, Even elder does it. I Have experience from that.
Here's A sad stories my little sister, were witnesses to.
A young guy was driving in the opposite lane and the car passed her and some young girls who was standig outside a small store and talking.
This young guy, drove up to a T-junction took the left and drove back by a parallell road. When he came back to the same road again, he pushed the speedometeren and drove at full speed past these young girls, that he would impress on. This young guy had apparently miscalculated the road's length. Because he failed to stop when he, once again reached the this T-junction. He slammed straight into the side of one of the local buses. He died on the spot
This happened many years ago, sometimes in the 90's
Markus
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