Escorts Asleep

[bill clarke]

On a war patrol off Hokaiddo I snuck in o a port chock full of merchants, and a couple of sub chasers all tied up at the warfs.

I put two fish in to a large freighter and then watched the sub chasers, their search lights came on, but that was all.

I put another two fish into another freighter, still nothing.
So I put a fish into one of the sub chasers, that was game over for it, I went on to sink 3 more ships and another sub chaser, none of the other sub chasers or gun boats came after me.

What's with this AI behaviour ?

[Diopos]

Docked ships don't "up" ancor and go. It seems that the game categorizes ships "In Port" or "Underway" as two AI categories with no possible interchange between them. Haven't heard of any mod that succeeded in getting an "In Port" ship to move :hmmm:. They will fire their guns, though, if they spot you on surface.

.

[WernherVonTrapp]

They will fire their guns, though, if they spot you on surface.

.Oh yeah, and in TMO, they have sniper scopes on them there deck guns.:D

[Dread Knot]

I've always felt it was major failing of this game that you can penetrate Japanese ports with such ease in the first place. In the real thing, you would have had to deal with unknown depths and currents, anti-submarine nets, mines, underwater obstructions, coast watcher patrols, searchlight batteries, gun batteries, and a mosquito fleet of coastal patrol craft who's only job was to patrol the harbor entrance. There's a reason American skippers didn't just waltz in and out of every Japanese harbor to pump up their tonnage.

[Armistead]

Yep, the game gives you two options with ships, they move or they're docked unable to make way. I guess it would take time for a docked ship to fire up, man up and make headway, so maybe it's correct.

Ports are very weak in the stock game, even in RSRD, many of us refuse to raid them because it's too easy.

I reworked several ports, mostly where capital ships are like Truk and Palau, very hard to get in and out. I placed more minefields, subnets, killer groups, mass shore guns and instead of docking escorts, speed is just set to zero, that way if they sense you, they will crank up and come a looking.

Most ports have a few escorts roaming in TMO and RSRD, so I guess if you can get by them you should be able to have at it, with TMO's increased gun range makes it harder.

Thought about adding more Sampans around ports, they spot you they should radio your position in.

[TorpX]

Thought about adding more Sampans around ports, they spot you they should radio your position in.
Do we know for sure that sampans report your position?

[Armistead]

Do we know for sure that sampans report your position?


Yes, for the most part if they're enemy vessels they will report you.

[Sailor Steve]

Docked ships don't "up" ancor and go. It seems that the game categorizes ships "In Port" or "Underway" as two AI categories with no possible interchange between them. Haven't heard of any mod that succeeded in getting an "In Port" ship to move :hmmm:. They will fire their guns, though, if they spot you on surface.

.
If a real-life ship has steam up it can move fairly quickly. It can take an hour or more for a cold ship to build up steam and get going. I just assume they're all steam-down.

Then again I never attack harbors, so it doesn't bother me much one way or the other.

[donna52522]

If a real-life ship has steam up it can move fairly quickly. It can take an hour or more for a cold ship to build up steam and get going. I just assume they're all steam-down.

What isn't correct in my opinion is that most escorts weren't steam, but fuel oil, and could get going pretty quickly.

But I guess, realistically, if their crews are ashore and possibly miles away without their 'cellphones'....there isn't much the escorts could do. Especially the ones tethered out in the harbor where the crew would need a launch to get out to their ship even if the crew could be rounded up. Even the Captains wouldn't be on the ships, after all, who would cancel their liberty.

[Sailor Steve]

What isn't correct in my opinion is that most escorts weren't steam, but fuel oil, and could get going pretty quickly.
Not so. You're confusing fuel oil with diesel oil. Escorts were fired by oil rather than coal, but they were indeed steam. Trust me, I served on a destroyer that wasn't built until 1945, and it was steam, and it could take a couple of hours to heat cold boilers and get underway.

[Diopos]

Large naval stations have steam generators that can provide steam to the ship and speed up the transition from cold to hot boiler. Not all harbors can do so. Speeding up the procedure does not make it "instant" by any means. Small patrol crafts can do it. Small ASW sloops/corvettes could be considered to "fire up" faster then DD's and if I were a game designer I might consider a transition from "in port" to "underway" mode (mostly on a "poetic lisence" basis :DL). I think that most navies keep half the crew aboard when In Port. That allows the ship to operate in a diminished capacity.

To all the above I await Sailor Steve's corrections, comments and general input :):yep:.

.

[Sailor Steve]

No corrections - all information accurate, to the best of my knowledge. In most cases very few destroyers would actually be cold if they were just on a quick turnaround. This being the Pacific war it's unlikely there would be a lot of destroyers around anyway, and small sub-chasers were indeed diesel powered.

I was busy writing about harbor practices when I remembered we're talking about the Japanese, not American and British destroyer practices.

[Armistead]

I'm no expert on the engine warmup times of DE's, I assume the IJN moved to diesels/ turbines during WW2. I would think the warmup time of diesels over coal would be much quicker. I know many US DEs of the WW2 period had diesel-electric or turbo-electric drives and could get underway fairly fast with enough crew.

I do know the two DD's at Pearl were anchored and able to fire up to two boilers in 15 minutes and get underway in 45 minutes, I would think the japs had the same ability. I suspect diesel fired could do it quicker. Course I have no clue what DE/DD classes were diesel

I guess many other issues would come into play, heading at berth, etc..

However, I really no little about the subject, but I do like setting some of the escorts to zero speed at ports, they will stay stopped unless you're spotted. Even though I reset many of these, I don't know or can't remember which ones and it's fun to be in a port and next thing you know what you thought was a docked escorts comes at you. You do have to be careful, if you're spotted, if land is in the way, they will simply keep going forward and reverse at you, instead of going around land.

[merc4ulfate]

The bottom line for me is that you get two choices. They sit still and get killed or if your creating missions you set them at 1 knot. If you do this they do not go far but if they are fired upon they will come and hunt you down since they are "underway" not docked.

[Armistead]

The bottom line for me is that you get two choices. They sit still and get killed or if your creating missions you set them at 1 knot. If you do this they do not go far but if they are fired upon they will come and hunt you down since they are "underway" not docked.

Actually you can set them at zero speed, just don't use the dock option, you can edit the campaign files also if you know what you're doing.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Large ships that are docked are sitting ducks. Period. Steve is 100% correct about the lengthy times it takes to fire up boilers (Destroyer Command actually models this. Waiting for those boilers to heat up sucks. Not to mention the obnoxious fuel consumption rate during the heat-up). Likewise, docked ships either had a skeleton crew of the repair/refit crew available. The sea crew was usually scattered around the port shaking off a patrol or cruise. While PCs can mobilize much faster, if they are docked, the crew is not aboard and is elsewhere.

I have Real Fleet Boat installed and I have found harbor penetration laughably easy because I am also expecting nets, mines and active PCs patrolling. I simply shrug my shoulders, accept the fact that it is a flaw in the sim and begin expending torpedoes.

[bill clarke]

Well I've found another annoying part of the game, I set my crew to battle stations at the start of the attack on the harbour.

I neglected to stand them down later as I was absorbed in getting away (yes I failed to notice the little battle stations icon), anyway I came under attack from 2 zeros hit crash dive and was told "cannot comply sir".

My boat took a direct hit, when I went to check my crew they were all asleep !.

This seems totally unrealistic to me, why was there not a code built in to stand the crew down after a set period if they were still at action stations, I mean in real life this would never have happened.

[Sailor Steve]

In real life you would have given the order to Secure from General Quarters. I can't see a timer working in the game. Perhaps a request from the OOD every hour or so? Or even better, since the game has different modes for combat and normal routines, perhaps as soon as the combat routine fades you could get an automatic request from the OOD.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I neglected to stand them down later as I was absorbed in getting away (yes I failed to notice the little battle stations icon), anyway I came under attack from 2 zeros hit crash dive and was told "cannot comply sir".

My boat took a direct hit, when I went to check my crew they were all asleep !.
Don't feel bad or let that annoy you. That used to happen to me more often than I care to admit. If it happens enough, like it did to me, muscle memory eventually kicks in and your situational awareness becomes honed to a razor's edge. Eventually, you'll never forget to secure from battle stations.:up:

[bill clarke]

And what's with bomb armed zero's inJan 42 ?

I really have to get more street smart and head under in daylight till I clear the Japanese home waters

Thanks god for saved games

[I'm goin' down]

Isn't that what the Secret Service guy said when he offerred the escort ten cents on the dollar?

[Armistead]

Well I've found another annoying part of the game, I set my crew to battle stations at the start of the attack on the harbour.

I neglected to stand them down later as I was absorbed in getting away (yes I failed to notice the little battle stations icon), anyway I came under attack from 2 zeros hit crash dive and was told "cannot comply sir".

My boat took a direct hit, when I went to check my crew they were all asleep !.

This seems totally unrealistic to me, why was there not a code built in to stand the crew down after a set period if they were still at action stations, I mean in real life this would never have happened.

This is a game, the crew followed orders and they did stand down, they fell asleep. Not sure if you're using mods, but there is a mod that corrects the zero for TMO, but it should work fine for stock.