View Full Version : Luke a Jedi?
Gargamel
03-21-12, 07:31 PM
Since he never finished his training, was luke ever really a Jedi?
Skybird
03-21-12, 07:37 PM
Believe master Yoda's words on his death-bed:
"Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be."
(SW-VI)
Raptor1
03-21-12, 07:48 PM
Yes, he was. He even founds the new Jedi Order in a certain book trilogy that probably shouldn't be talked about too much beyond indirect references.
frau kaleun
03-21-12, 07:51 PM
And IIRC when he returns to Yoda to complete his training, Yoda tells him he's already learned everything he needs to know. If Yoda says your training is complete, who's going to argue? :D
Also given that the few remaining members of the order were all dead by the end of Ep VI, I think Luke got to be the one who defined what a "Jedi" was from that point forward. :yep:
TLAM Strike
03-21-12, 07:51 PM
Well there are several ranks of Jedihood, just being part of the Jedi Order makes one a Jedi. Luke was an apprentice of two Jedi masters making him a Jedi by association.
Rockstar
03-21-12, 08:02 PM
Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.
Luke: Am I a Jedi?
Yoda: Dude you have you kewl Jedi vibe now going on... See that did you? Whoa there it is again.
TLAM Strike
03-21-12, 08:08 PM
Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.
Yea he stole Carrie Fisher's stash from the Holiday Special! :haha:
Stealhead
03-21-12, 08:26 PM
Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.
That was the soul in his eyes being absorbed back into the Force and he was resisting it to tell Luke what he needed to hear he told Luke he was a Jedi because Yoda knew that he was going to face a very difficult battle in the near future and needed to be told that he was in fact a Jedi.
Yoda used up his drugs during Empire Strikes Back anyways clearly high he was when he first met Luke wore off a few hours later did they when Obi Wan spoke snapped Yoda out of his trip that did.
AngusJS
03-21-12, 08:30 PM
Yoda was no doubt up in age. Who is to say he was of sound mind when he told Luke he was a Jedi. He could been dosed up on meds. Ever look close at his eyes he was deffinetley on something.He certainly looked as a high as a kite in Episode I.
Stealhead
03-21-12, 08:32 PM
Judging by the behavior I would say that Yoda was a user of methamphetamine because he sure as hell had a lot of energy when he was high.Wen not he moved around like an old man.
TLAM Strike
03-21-12, 08:36 PM
Yoda used up his drugs during Empire Strikes Back anyways clearly high he was when he first met Luke wore off a few hours later did they when Obi Wan spoke snapped Yoda out of his trip that did. Somehow I don't think him seeing and talking to a dead guy meant that he was out of drugs. :hmmm:
frau kaleun
03-21-12, 09:01 PM
Well, this does raise an interesting question about what makes one a true "Jedi" - is it the completion of some rigid set curriculum of physical, mental, and spiritual training, with every i dotted and every t crossed and every checkmark duly checked off? Or is it the attainment of something that is not so easily quantified and measured? A particular quality of mind, heart, character, that can only be proven to exist at any given moment by the words and actions of the one in possession of it?
Luke had already faced what surely was the most rigorous and gut-wrenching test of his "training period": he'd learned the worst part of the truth about his family heritage, realized that he was the son and heir of the (second) most evil person in the galaxy (and remember, Luke hadn't met the Emperor yet, so in his mind at the time Vader *was* the ultimate evil), discovered that pretty much everyone he'd ever trusted had lied to him about it, and been tempted to turn his anger and resentment over that into a reason to transfer his allegiance from them to his own flesh and blood and go to the dark side. Which, you know, was good enough for dear old dad and those other people did lie to you, son.
He faced that test, and he passed it. I think that's the yardstick, if any, that Yoda was using.
Does he have more to learn? Yes, because there is always more to learn, even the "master," the sensei, is just someone who is further along the path than you are. The path itself does not end and that is as it should be because some training can only be done "on the job" and some wisdom can only be learned - really learned and internalized - through personal experiences yet to be encountered.
In addition I think his entire attitude and behavior in the film that followed, in particular his final refusal to allow the Emperor to manipulate him towards the dark side by setting him up to fight and destroy his own father... that's plenty good enough for me. :yep:
Falkirion
03-21-12, 09:09 PM
Going strictly by the movies, in my mind. He became a true jedi the moment he struck Vader down and let him live. Which is what most light siders will do.
And I'm not getting into the whole EU thing. If you want to read about it, head over to wookiepedia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
frau kaleun
03-21-12, 09:42 PM
Going strictly by the movies, in my mind. He became a true jedi the moment he struck Vader down and let him live. Which is what most light siders will do.
When RotJ first came out and I saw it in the theater I didn't really "get" the significance of the ending, I mean, yeah, I'm sure I realized that Luke's the hero so whatever he did was the right thing and the Alliance wins and evil is defeated, wooooo! But on a deeper philosophical, spiritual level - I just couldn't appreciate it. In fact when the SEs went back out to the theaters and I saw them as a much older (and one would hope wiser) adult, I realized at some point that I didn't even remember exactly what happened with the Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation or why that ended the way it did.
Not only did that make watching the movie far more fun and interesting (as did my ability to overlook the whole Ewok thing, which I simply could not do at age 17-18 when I guess I felt I had to work much harder at pretending to be "grown up," lol), but it meant that I was simply BLOWN AWAY by how that situation played out. It seemed clear to me that the Emperor was trying to do to Luke what he had probably done to Anakin Skywalker - manipulate him into doing something so heinous and, in his own mind, so unforgivable, that the Dark Side seemed like the only remaining option.
From the conversations Luke has with Vader it seems clear that Vader believes that, having done what he has done, there is no turning back. The path is set and must be followed, since redemption of any kind or magnitude is an impossibility. Luke's argument is that it is *never* too late to turn around and start walking the other way. Can you undo what you have done, can you ever make full reparations for the damage you have caused - no. But you can at least start moving in a better direction from this moment forward. The trick is, you have to believe that it's possible and Vader does not and no doubt the Emperor has done much to convince him of that. I have no doubt that he would have tried to convince Luke of that same thing, had Luke chosen to kill Vader. He would've used it as evidence of Luke's "corrupt" nature in an attempt to corrupt it even further.
The crucial moment is when Luke momentarily fails to control himself and takes off Vader's hand, obviously a bionic/robotic one, then looks at his own replacement for the hand that Vader took off of him in their first battle. And you can see him make the connection - that he is being manipulated into becoming more and more like Vader (as distinct from whatever's left of the once good Anakin Skywalker) by the same guy who no doubt once manipulated Anakin in much the same way. He is being auditioned for the part of Palpatine's new Sith apprentice, and homey don't play that. :O:
Honestly I had tears in my eyes at the end of that scene, when Vader chose to become Anakin again and save Luke. It was like, well, if my son here can choose another option besides the crap ones the Emperor is offering us, then so can I. :woot:
TLAM Strike
03-21-12, 10:24 PM
Luke had already faced what surely was the most rigorous and gut-wrenching test of his "training period": he'd learned the worst part of the truth about his family heritage, realized that he was the son and heir of the (second) most evil person in the galaxy (and remember, Luke hadn't met the Emperor yet, so in his mind at the time Vader *was* the ultimate evil), discovered that pretty much everyone he'd ever trusted had lied to him about it, and been tempted to turn his anger and resentment over that into a reason to transfer his allegiance from them to his own flesh and blood and go to the dark side. Which, you know, was good enough for dear old dad and those other people did lie to you, son. I'm not so sure about this part. Luke would have had to known something of the Emperor, he was the leader of the enemy after all. Also was Vader his ultimate evil? Up till that point he just the man who Luke believed killed his father and chased him across the galaxy. After all Grand Moff Tarkin was the man who destroyed Alderaan, in fact Vader was just an errand boy and does what Tarkin demands.
What does Vader say to Luke? "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." Why would he say this to Luke unless Luke believe the Emperor was some blight on the galaxy? Was he full of hatred of the Empire? He wanted to join the Empire until they killed his Aunt and Uncle.
Now either Luke was out for revenge against Vader, in which case Vader telling him that he can destroy the Emperor and rule the Galaxy would be a kinda lame offer (especially since Jedi/Sith are telepathic). Or Luke was out for revenge against the Empire in which case Vader is just a part of it, and the Emperor must have been the ultimate evil.
Also wouldn't the Rebels have given him some kind of indoctrination on how the Empire works. Some of their leadership (like Leia) were members of the Imperial Senate, they must have talked about how they wanted to get rid of the Emperor who was ruining the Empire they were representatives of.
There must have been something else. What does Luke do in ROTJ? He tries to turn Vader to the Light side... before the Rebels blow up the space station the Emperor is on. Luke being arguably the greatest Rebel in the whole Rebel Alliance (Wedge being the other :O: ) So if Luke believes the Emperor is the Ultimate Evil (Which he must or Vader's offer would be quite lame) there must be something else going on...
Teenager, probably thinks he is indestructible...
Blows up unstoppable doomsday machine...
Is with band of rebels who want to overthrow the government...
Tries to stage coup with right hand man of leader of said government...
Was Luke out for a power grab? :doh:
ORRRRRR....
He ignored Vader's offer and sided with the Rebels because he wanted to get his space freak on...
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/61/435leialukekiss.jpg
He didn't know until the next movie... :oops:
... then he volunteers for a suicide mission... :haha:
Stealhead
03-22-12, 12:42 AM
I always thought that Vader was Lukes ultimate test will he take the easy route and give in like his father or will he take the harder route and not.Obviously in Empire Luke took the hard route and in effect he attempted suicide(he could not have been sure of survival when he jumped to get a way from Vader) rather than the easy route of surrender.So to some extent at that moment he became a Jedi because of his choice at the most difficult moment when the easy route the dark side would have guaranteed survival and power he chose the Jedi path.
Then in Jedi The Emperor and Vader intent was to lore Luke with anger to the dark side and in the film it does seem at first that he is giving in but when he sees at last what Vader was and how he become that way he stopped his attack on Vader.This was so powerful a deed that it even broke Vader and he saved his son from death even though it cost him his live.That moment where Luke could have struck Vader down in anger was his ultimate test but he became a Jedi when he jumped away from Vader in Empire.
To me it is implied that once one becomes a Jedi they can still be tempted by the dark side at the same time one can become like Vader and deeply follow the dark side yet still redeem themselves to light by being selfless.
nikimcbee
03-22-12, 12:56 AM
Believe master Yoda's words on his death-bed:
"Luke, when gone am I... the last of the Jedi will you be."
(SW-VI)
That's why you must stay in school! At some point, Luke must go back and get his degree or he'll be flippin' burgers for the rest of his life.
To a real master you listen will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQT830mo8Mc
It's all to do with midichl- :dead:
Yeah...no...I'm not going there...
http://gifs.gifbin.com/1873g6g6180.gif
frau kaleun
03-22-12, 04:18 AM
I'm not so sure about this part. Luke would have had to known something of the Emperor, he was the leader of the enemy after all. Also was Vader his ultimate evil? Up till that point he just the man who Luke believed killed his father and chased him across the galaxy. After all Grand Moff Tarkin was the man who destroyed Alderaan, in fact Vader was just an errand boy and does what Tarkin demands.
Regardless of the political goals of the Alliance and its leaders, Luke included, when it comes to his role and purpose as a Jedi the emphasis is always on the need to confront and defeat Vader. That is the task that is set before him by Kenobi and Yoda, that's the reason he needs to become a trained Jedi. They do not present Vader to him as a stepping-stone to the eventual one-on-one defeat of the greater evil incarnate in the Emperor - in fact they make it seem like the entire fate of the rebellion and indeed the galaxy hinges on whether or not Luke can and will defeat Darth Vader.
Even in RotJ, when Luke tells Obi-wan that he can't kill his own father, Obi-wan responds with, "Then we've already lost." You could argue that Luke's inability and/or unwillingness to kill Vader would cut short any hope of him moving on to take out the Emperor as well, thus the good guys lose because of that, but it's never presented that way to Luke or to the viewer as far as I can remember.
How wonderful, though, that Luke's unwillingness to kill his father turns out to be the very thing that *does* lead to the destruction of the Emperor.
It's also interesting that IIRC it's Obi-wan who is fixated on the need for Luke to *kill* Darth Vader, while Yoda only talks about the need to *confront* him. I always suspected that it was because Obi-wan had failed to kill Vader himself when he had the chance, and knew how much suffering that failure brought to the galaxy. In my imaginary backstory that predates the prequels by many, many years... Obi-wan *chose* not to kill Vader when he could have because he still had faith that this former Padawan could turn from the dark side and be redeemed somehow. And then he was proven horribly wrong, and thus always saw killing him as the only solution. Yoda, methinks, was a bit wiser in this matter than Obi-wan... but then he'd had so many more centuries of experience in which to get that way.
Osmium Steele
03-22-12, 07:30 AM
When RotJ first came out <snip>
Platapus, I envy you sir. She's a keeper. :up:
My favourite Jedi IZ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNX8TNKHbw
Cheers
Garion
My favourite Jedi IZ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNX8TNKHbw
Cheers
Garion
:rotfl2::rotfl2:
That was the soul in his eyes being absorbed back into the Force and he was resisting it to tell Luke what he needed to hear he told Luke he was a Jedi because Yoda knew that he was going to face a very difficult battle in the near future and needed to be told that he was in fact a Jedi.
Kinda like how Orlando Bloom promotes everyone to Knight just before the Saracens lay siege to Jerusalem in Kingdom of Heaven right? :DL
Stealhead
03-22-12, 03:40 PM
That reminds me I need to pick a copy of Kingdom Of Heaven now that is cheaper.
Used to be it was $40,000.00 I saw it the other day on Bluray for $14.00 in a Target store.
kiwi_2005
03-22-12, 03:44 PM
Yur all wrong! Only men who stare at goats are true Jedi's....:O:
Stealhead
03-22-12, 04:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9TLcJbJOIk&feature=related
frau kaleun
03-22-12, 05:49 PM
Platapus, I envy you sir. She's a keeper. :up:
:hmmm:
Well I certainly think so, but Platapus's significant other might not see it that way... :haha:
That reminds me I need to pick a copy of Kingdom Of Heaven now that is cheaper.
Used to be it was $40,000.00 I saw it the other day on Bluray for $14.00 in a Target store.
Mine is a DVD version I got in the bargain bin at Wall-mart for $5 or less. Is BlueRay really worth that much more? I've been thinking of making the plunge and get a player.
Stealhead
03-22-12, 07:12 PM
If you have a 1080p HDTV I would say yes on Bluray though you also have to have an HDMI cable to get the best picture and those can be pricey if you need several feet.
The other downside of Bluray newer films and very popular films are usually priced at $29.99 for me that is not a huge issue because I am fairly picky and only own films that I really enjoy so my collection is small.My friend on the other buys most every movie well he used to until his wife got onto him.
My PC also has a Bluray drive and it seems to me that Blurays look and sound a bit sharper than DVDs even though my monitor is not HD.
I compared on my PC a DVD and Bluray copy of Full Metal Jacket it sure looked sharper and sounded sharper on the Bluray.
I do not yet have the original Star Wars on Bluray and I wont buy them unless I can watch the originals not the ones they put out in late 90's with the added bits.
I do need to get a copy of Das Boot though again only if it allows to play German audio with subtitles otherwise nien.
Thanks for the info. My TV is only 780p and it's mounted at least 15 cable feet from the the player location so maybe i'll wait until prices come down some more. :salute:
Stealhead
03-22-12, 08:07 PM
You can always look for sales/deals and buy one component at a time.There are tons of HDMI brands out there as well some are surely better than others.
Same goes with HDTV with 1080p as well with the 3-D ones and all (they seem like a gimmick to me).I usually look at Amazon and Newegg tiger direct has good deals sometimes but they always require playing the mail in rebate game and they list the rebate price not the real price.Or you can just buy a Vizio at Wal-Mart.
Yeah when the TV I have wears out. It's only a few years old though. Hopefully I'll have it a few more before I have to replace it.
Sailor Steve
03-22-12, 08:23 PM
:hmmm:
Well I certainly think so, but Platapus's significant other might not see it that way... :haha:
I was wondering. Hope springs eternal...
TLAM Strike
03-22-12, 08:26 PM
Yeah when the TV I have wears out. It's only a few years old though. Hopefully I'll have it a few more before I have to replace it. Have it for a few years then replace it after a few more? What is the world coming to? :nope:
You know my family has had the same TV for over 20 years. We replaced the picture tube about 19 years ago and the remote about 5 years ago. :haha:
Stealhead
03-22-12, 08:35 PM
I had this Hitachi TV forever lost the remote to it at some point but it still worked until my daughter when she was toddler some how managed to place it into eternal sleep mode.I had long lost the manual as well I tried for week to figure out a way to unlock the sleep mode I gave up and gave the TV away.
That was in 2007 I bought a Vizio 32" HD 1080p had it ever since works just fine I don't need some huge 60" 3-D beast; A Jedi craves not these things.
Have it for a few years then replace it after a few more? What is the world coming to? :nope:
You know my family has had the same TV for over 20 years. We replaced the picture tube about 19 years ago and the remote about 5 years ago. :haha:
Replacing the tube, which is the main component of the tv, within a couple years of buying it isn't exactly a stellar product review! :DL
TLAM Strike
03-22-12, 10:05 PM
Replacing the tube, which is the main component of the tv, within a couple years of buying it isn't exactly a stellar product review! :DL
Not so sure; replaced defective tube (covered by warranty)... TV lasts for 18 years and three houses. :hmmm:
I still have the same television I watched the Berlin wall come down on. I haven't switched it on in about three years...and I'm a bit nervous to do so. It was second hand when we got it so it's probably looking at being over thirty years old. If it wasn't for the switchover to digital I'd keep the old thing, it has a lot of sentimental value, but I've got a replacement in mind which will be put in after the wedding, and I'll fire the old girl up one more time before I put her out to pasture...I'll just be sure to have a bucket of sand nearby... :doh:
How did this get on to televisions anyway? *scrolls back through the thread*
TLAM Strike
03-22-12, 10:11 PM
I still have the same television I watched the Berlin wall come down on. I haven't switched it on in about three years...and I'm a bit nervous to do so. It was second hand when we got it so it's probably looking at being over thirty years old. If it wasn't for the switchover to digital I'd keep the old thing, it has a lot of sentimental value, but I've got a replacement in mind which will be put in after the wedding, and I'll fire the old girl up one more time before I put her out to pasture...I'll just be sure to have a bucket of sand nearby... :doh:
How did this get on to televisions anyway? *scrolls back through the thread*
You would get rid of your old non-useful TV? You barbarian! Don't you know that old TVs become the stand you place the new TV on!! :stare:
You would get rid of your old non-useful TV? You barbarian! Don't you know that old TVs become the stand you place the new TV on!! :stare:
But...then it wouldn't fit under the die-cast plane shelf! :wah:
Don't make me feel any worse than I already do about getting rid of the old girl! :O:
Perhaps there's room in the loft or a spare room that I can smuggle her into... :hmmm:
Osmium Steele
03-23-12, 07:19 AM
:hmmm:
Well I certainly think so, but Platapus's significant other might not see it that way... :haha:
DOH! did I get that wrong? I'll just slink away now. :oops:
Point and laugh if you must. I can take it!
frau kaleun
03-23-12, 08:14 AM
DOH! did I get that wrong? I'll just slink away now. :oops:
Point and laugh if you must. I can take it!
No problem. IIRC he often refers to his SO as "the frau" so even I get confused sometimes. :O:
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