The Steak thread [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Skybird

03-21-12, 05:41 PM

I launched a thread on how to do good pizza (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=187623&highlight=pizza). I launched a thread on how to do a good espresso (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=192563&highlight=espresso). You now know all my secrets. But I know none of yours. That is not fair! Now here is your opportunity to give some back. :DL

Its time to give steaks the full treatment.

Problem is: different to pizza and espresso, I do not really know how to do a good steak. The recipes are many, and from own experience I got very different results.

I am not really happy with how I try to do good steak. The way I get it done is okay, one can eat it, but it is not special.

We do not talk grilling and barbecue here, but using a kitchen stove, gas or electric. We do talk steaks like you get in our restaurants here, 200-300 gr. And especially we talk aboput how to prepare them to achieve a "medium" to "well done" result". I personally prefer steak without much gimmicks, just salt and black pepper and herbed butter.

I read about baking steaks. Roasting steaks. Putting them in aluminium foil and let them rest. Roasting them twice. Turning them, or not turning them. Turning them several times, or not. Long roasting and short baking. Short roastign and long baking.

Well, what is it now, eh? :stare:

Whats the best way to get the perfect restaurant-style steak? Give your recipes, tell me all your secrets!

nikimcbee

03-21-12, 05:43 PM

Thread of the year.:yeah::salute:

Skybird

03-21-12, 05:46 PM

Not yet.

I give my verdict after having tasted the suggestions coming in. :D

joegrundman

03-21-12, 05:59 PM

Whats the best way to get the perfect restaurant-style steak? Give your recipes, tell me all your secrets!

it is not that common for restaurants to do very good steaks. you should aim higher!

most important thing: get good quality meat from the best cows and pieces should be fatty and well aged. **

sirloin tastes better than fillet, but fillet is nicer textured.

salt generously just before cooking

cook on high heat, 60 seconds per side if you like it rare like i do. longer for less rare

cooking on a grill is good, but the very high heats can mean it cooks through quickly. not a problem though. it's so quick it doesn't dry out.

rest for 5 mins.

nice with twice-fried chips and rocket salad.

** if you happen on Kobe or Wagyu beef, this is extremely well marbled with fat and very expensive. It does not make good steaks. It is too rich and fatty for this purpose. It's really intended for slicing very thinly and cooking in hot broth for the dish shabu-shabu. better you should aim for high quality beef that is marbled but not so much as the Japanese sort. British is best i think, but not necessarily easy to get and costs a lot. South American beef not so good, but pretty good for the price

Skybird

03-21-12, 06:05 PM

joegrundman

03-21-12, 06:13 PM

Kobe beef is extremely expensive (the most expensive there is), and I think the EU has a ban on it anyway. Never saw it in stores.

I also do not want to ruin my finances over just one dinner. :hmmm: I'm not a rich man - I just make myself sound like one.

then south american is a good option. good value for money and easy to obtain in germany.

if not well marbled with fat, then it is a good idea to marinate the steaks in olive oil for a few hours before cooking.

also a useful tip for home aging.

take the meat out of the packing, and put it on a rack above a tray, as if for roasting. place it in the fridge for two days.

it may lose some of its beautiful redness, but this is a desirable thing in a steak!

you should take the steak out (and marinate it in olive oil for a couple of hours if necessary) and let it warm up to room temperature before cooking.

krashkart

03-21-12, 07:07 PM

I like plain ol' steak. Just grill it and eat it, sometimes slathered with A1 sauce. My stepdad though, he cooks up a steak from time to time with a dark beer gravy that is something to behold. Another proper use for Guinness in my estimation. :up:

Gargamel

03-21-12, 07:18 PM

Steaks need to be grilled. Period.

Other ways of cooking dead cow is fine, but to disregard it out of hand? Sacrilege!

That said, a good meat rub of spices, or good marinate, then some light coating of a thick beer on the coals for vapor flavor. Cook it till just stops mooing, 30 seconds more...... Yum. Garnish with sautéed shrroms, onions and mixed peppers.

frau kaleun

03-21-12, 08:23 PM

Whats the best way to get the perfect restaurant-style steak?

I call it "going to my sister's house." Of all the nice things she's done for me over the years, marrying her husband was by far the nicest. :haha:

What I'm saying is, the man is a master when it comes to grilling meat. Restaurants wish they could serve a steak like what he puts on your plate.

He also does fried chicken to die for. :woot:

mookiemookie

03-21-12, 08:45 PM

it is not that common for restaurants to do very good steaks. you should aim higher!

most important thing: get good quality meat from the best cows and pieces should be fatty and well aged. **

sirloin tastes better than fillet, but fillet is nicer textured.

salt generously just before cooking

cook on high heat, 60 seconds per side if you like it rare like i do. longer for less rare

cooking on a grill is good, but the very high heats can mean it cooks through quickly. not a problem though. it's so quick it doesn't dry out.

rest for 5 mins.

nice with twice-fried chips and rocket salad.

** if you happen on Kobe or Wagyu beef, this is extremely well marbled with fat and very expensive. It does not make good steaks. It is too rich and fatty for this purpose. It's really intended for slicing very thinly and cooking in hot broth for the dish shabu-shabu. better you should aim for high quality beef that is marbled but not so much as the Japanese sort. British is best i think, but not necessarily easy to get and costs a lot. South American beef not so good, but pretty good for the price

I have a very, very precise way of doing steaks. I've gotten rave reviews from everyone I've ever made a steak for, and I think if you try it my way, you'll be happy with the results. It requires an oven, a rimmed baking sheet, a cast iron pan, and since we're being precise here, a probe thermometer. A rack that fits inside the baking sheet is a nice thing to have, but optional.

joegrundman has good advice. The best steaks are going to start with a nice, well-marbled piece of meat. You want a good amount of fat marbled in with your meat, but not something too fatty, or else it's going to be greasy. I like my steaks to be at least an inch thick.

Now, once you've got your steak of choice (I prefer the New York Strip steak as I think Ribeyes tend to be a little too fatty for my taste), the next question is how to season it. Again, this is going to be your choice. I prefer to keep it simple, as if you've got good meat, you want the taste of it to speak for itself and not cover it up with a bunch of seasoning. Your seasoning choice is up to you, so long as it's dry. Wet marinades are completely out of the question. They're going to give you a mushy and gray steak. I go with a simple seasoning of equal parts salt, pepper and garlic powder. Season both sides of your steak liberally.

When you're ready to cook, take your meat out of the fridge and let it come to room temperature. Let it sit out for about an hour. Next, set your oven to 275 degrees (that's 135 C for our non-American friends). Line your baking sheet with foil to make cleanup easier, and then set your steak on it, or on the rack if you're using it. Throw it in the oven.

Now it should take about 20 minutes or so for your steak to get up to temp. What temp? Well it depends on how you like your steak. This is where the probe thermometer comes in. If you don't have one, you can fudge it a bit, but I strive for precision.

I like my steaks on the rare side of medium rare, so I cook mine to an internal temp of 88-90 degrees (31-32 C). This usually takes about 20-25 minutes. If you like it medium to medium rare, cook it to around 95 degrees (35 C). Usually takes about 25 minutes to 30 minutes. If you like it done more than that, go eat some jerky instead.

Wait a minute, I hear you saying. Medium rare means an internal temp of 130-140 degrees F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_(meat)). Yeah yeah, I know, but I'm not done yet!

Now once your steak is almost to temp, put your cast iron skillet over high heat. As hot of a heat as your stove's burner will allow. Get it screaming hot. Add about a teaspoon of oil to the pan, and it's going to start smoking. (This is a good recipe to do with the doors and windows open unless you like hearing your smoke detector go off). Once you pull your steak out of the oven, slap it in that pan and DON'T TOUCH IT. Don't move it, don't fiddle with it, don't lift it up, don't anything. Let it sit for 2 minutes. Then flip. Do the other side for about a minute and a half.

Now it's time to eat!

I LIED! NO, IT IS NOT TIME TO EAT! You must let a steak rest before cutting into it. If you don't let it rest, you're going to end up with a flood of juices on your plate when you cut into the steak, and juice on your plate means that juice isn't in your meat, which means you've got a dry steak. Let the steak rest for 10 minutes, tented loosely with foil (I usually just use the foil I used to line the baking sheet with). This is necessary to let the steak reabsorb all that internal moisture.

After you've let your steak rest, dig in. I guarantee if you do a steak this way, it will rival anything that you can get in any steakhouse anywhere.

the_tyrant

03-21-12, 09:05 PM

You will need a good griddle, preferably the kind with grooves.

otherwise, I have no more tips for steaks on a stove top, after all, I get my steaks from M&M meat shops already marinated.

razark

03-21-12, 09:16 PM

I have a very, very precise way of doing steaks. I've gotten rave reviews from everyone I've ever made a steak for, and I think if you try it my way, you'll be happy with the results.
That method sounds pretty good. I might have to try it, since the grill is out right now. Instead of the garlic powder, have you ever tried rubbing the steak with a clove of garlic cut in half?

Location: Houston, TX
:hmmm:

Oberon

03-21-12, 09:29 PM

A lot of it is down to the quality of the beef I'd say, having a good palette to start off with and all that. I used to live on a cattle farm, didn't actually run it (although did help out from time to time) but lived next door to the guy that did. Well, at one point we had a cow go down off the list, so to speak, so she went to the slicers and we got a portion of the meat...and when I say a portion, I mean enough to fill up our freezer. We were eating beef for weeks after! But damn, if that wasn't the nicest beef I've had in a long time, it was just right.
So it makes you wonder what goes on between the farm and the supermarket/butchers. :hmmm:

mookiemookie

03-21-12, 09:49 PM

That method sounds pretty good. I might have to try it, since the grill is out right now. Instead of the garlic powder, have you ever tried rubbing the steak with a clove of garlic cut in half? I've done that when I made bruschetta, and that turned out well. Never thought about doing it with steak. Good idea!

:hmmm:
Texans know meat! If you're referring to the fact that there's no grill involved in my method, it's because I live in an apartment, so I don't get to grill as often as I like.

Oberon

03-21-12, 09:53 PM

it's because I live in an apartment, so I don't get to grill as often as I like.

Convert a window-garden box into a grill. Problem solved! :yep:

gimpy117

03-21-12, 09:55 PM

i do happen to work in a meat dept...any questions?

razark

03-21-12, 10:08 PM

I've done that when I made bruschetta, and that turned out well. Never thought about doing it with steak. Good idea!
I learned it from my dad. He considers garlic to be a side dish. His garlic bread includes chunks of raw garlic, in addition to whatever gets baked on.

Texans know meat! If you're referring to the fact that there's no grill involved in my method, it's because I live in an apartment, so I don't get to grill as often as I like.
Yeah, Houston isn't as bad as some areas. I've lived in a few towns that would have no problem lynching someone that cooks a steak inside. Most apartments had a grill on the balcony, or even in the parking lot.

breadcatcher101

03-21-12, 10:54 PM

Mine is pretty simple. I prefer sirloin, coat the pan with coconut oil and cook on mid heat. Flip the steak often allowing it to sear and cook evenly. When almost done add a bit of soy sauce and keep flipping and working it around in the pan until done.

(Grilled with charcoal is best though)

U570

03-22-12, 12:11 AM

I reckon the simplest (and tastiest) thing to do is to grab any steak (what ever you fancy or can afford), then get your BBQ (I hope for steak sake you have one) or use a large cast-iron pan, the do the usual oil etc. Put herbs in if you want, then grill the steak 5-7mins each side (7 for thick as bricks) and then eat. You could also experiment? might come up with interesting and tasty combos:arrgh!:.

Skybird

03-22-12, 06:29 AM

Got surprised this monrning by an article in the news on how to do steaks. The author, who runs a steakhouse here, gave this recommendation when using a kitchen stove, not a BBQ grill.

Good meat, of course, you guys mentioned the important things already.

For a 200 gr steak done medium: a heavy black iron pan, using cleared butter, heating it up like hell until it smokes, then do the steak 3 minutes each side. After that, take it off, put in the oven at 180°C for another I think 6 minutes (on the griddle, not in the pan). After that, put it in alumimium foil and let it rest for another 5 minutes.

The baking in the oven in the second step is to make sure the heart of the meat gets well done, without burning the outside anymore and turning it into black ashes. The heated oil in the pan seems to create a hard skin very fast, preventing the juice to escape. The resting period is to normalise temperature so that the juice inside settles nicely and does not escape when you cut the meat immediately.

Sounds like a bit of more work than just leaving the meat in a pan all the time, but if it works...

However, I still do not know when to use spice like salt, pepper, garlic, rosary. Before or after cooking the meat? Garlic especially can burn to ashes if you put it into hot enough oil, it just takes seconds. And salt on raw meat extracts juice that normally you want to catch inside, don'T you. So: salt and spice before or after cooking?

Will get some work on the balcony done today, and then - try some of the advise here. I like yoiur precision approach, Mookie - its like I approached pizza and espresso - with timers, thermometers and precision scales! :)

The only thing I do not like about cooking steaks is that it makes a big mess in the kitchen, and oil everywhere...

If you guys ever happen to stay in Germany for a while and take an appartement, do not get the idea to BBQ on the balcony without making sure it is permitted. It can easily get you into trouble, even with police and lawyers involved. Many Germans hate people grilling in public parks (which can be a problem indeed, especially in Berlin where they do it in crowds of many hundreds), and in many houses it is forbidden due to the smelly cloud drifting away, and security concerns over open fire. We exaggerate it, I admit, and I do not agree with the strict ruling. The problem in Berlin is that hundreds of grilling people in Tiergarten and other parks often do not care to take away the waste they have produced. The park often looks accordingly. Which is a shame, since Berlin has many, big and nice parks. But the Berliners are a very dirty type of people, and Berlin is a very dirty city. Not even mentioning the mess caused by non-caring dog owners...

joegrundman

03-22-12, 07:08 AM

salt will draw out moisture, which is why i say salt just before cooking. this way the salt can dissolve into the skin of the meat. if you just sprinkle salt on afterward then you still have granules of salt on the steak, which is unattractive.

there is also a modern approach called sous vide. very interesting results can be obtained with this.

the technique is as follows:

seal your meat with any flavourings you desire in a vacuum bag.

immerse the bag with the meat in water at the exact temperature you require - e.g. 60 degrees C for a rare steak

leave for 7 hours or so

then remove from bag and quickly season and fry at high temperature to brown the outside

it produces extremely good results, but it is not so easy to manage at home

the long cooking allows the proteins to set and any toughness to loosen, but it doesn't overcook because it never gets hot enough

here's a link to an article on sous vide steak
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/03/how-to-sous-vide-steak.html

and here are some photos showing how a sous vide setup can be arranged at home for not much money

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/gallery/2012/mar/21/how-cook-diy-sous-vide-pictures#/?picture=383998339&index=0

if you are of an experimental frame of mind, you will have fun with this!

btw - the steak guy 's claim that browning the meat seals it and prevents loss of moisture is only partially true, as i'm sure you realise. if even that. High heat causes water to evaporate directly, leaving a dryer pan. a low heat causes water to exit the meat into the pan making it appear wet.

Polak

03-22-12, 07:34 AM

Kobe beef is extremely expensive (the most expensive there is), and I think the EU has a ban on it anyway. Never saw it in stores.

I also do not want to ruin my finances over just one dinner. :hmmm: I'm not a rich man - I just make myself sound like one.

No ban on Kobe beef in the EU, bought it in stores both in Poland and Sweden.:)

Lately I've started to give my stakes a quick soy sauce bath, I let the meat rest in soy sauce for about an hour, after that it goes straight down into a hot pan, thanks to this method you don't have to worry about the white death, salt.
I adjust the time spent on the pan to the thickness of meat piece I am cooking. When I judge that the meat is done I take it of the pan/bbq, apply freshly grounded black pepper, let it rest and after that I dig in.:)

Herr-Berbunch

03-22-12, 09:36 AM

Quote:
Location: Houston, TX
:hmmm:

Mookie - I think Razark was angling for an invite to try your cooking skills. :D

I'm quite hungry now after reading this thread and think I'll suggest steak for a meal soon, but the wife's a veggie so she can have a nut cutlet or some such stuff.

Can't quite stretch to Kobe beef though :o

Herr-Berbunch

03-22-12, 09:41 AM

No ban on Kobe beef in the EU, bought it in stores both in Poland and Sweden.:)

You can get beef from all over the world called Kobe beef, it's from Wagyu cattle the same family as Kobe but is interbred with Angus (not Young), and raised in the same way. Really it should be called Kobe style beef. :doh:

Japan has a ban on exporting the original Kobe beef.

joegrundman

03-22-12, 11:08 AM

in any case, i do not recommend wagyu or kobe beef for steaks. it is not really optimised for steak.

Polak

03-22-12, 12:03 PM

You can get beef from all over the world called Kobe beef, it's from Wagyu cattle the same family as Kobe but is interbred with Angus (not Young), and raised in the same way. Really it should be called Kobe style beef. :doh:

Japan has a ban on exporting the original Kobe beef.

In that case I stand corrected. :yep:

Skybird

03-22-12, 12:48 PM

jumpy

03-22-12, 01:07 PM

Rub it in salt and coarse ground black pepper, drop into a medium heat frying pan with olive oil.
Fry for about 10 minutes. (for me until it's no longer bloody throughout)

Consume with lots of salad, potato wedges and red wine.

Simples.

....I don't like complicated cooking.

mookiemookie

03-22-12, 01:18 PM

Wowh, I am just done with my steak today, and it was - wayyyy better than how I did it in the past. I used the method with baking it in the oven, which indeed worked wonders. I absolutely recommend to experiment with that.

It was a bit too bloody for my taste, which may be due to the piece of meat I had being bigger than the 200 gr the original recipe was scaled for. But by principle - hot, short roasting, then baking - that tip is worth pure gold.

I wonder if one can help the second stage by adding 1 minute of microwave treatement?

Bake it in the oven longer.

And the reason why I recommend doing it the other way around - bake, THEN sear - is that you end up with the same amount of "done-ness" from end to end in your steak. If you do pan then oven, I've found that you get a brown crust, a pink center, and a band of overcooked meat in between. By doing it in the oven first, you get your pink center, and then you develop your brown crust on the outside with a short amount of time in the pan. Too short to let that overcooked band develop.

Joe, thnaks for the explanation of "sous vide". Never heared of that, but it sounds interesting. I just doubt that I am willing to make that the method of choice, since it takes quite some time in advance preparation. But i will at least try it out.

But I wonder about the hygienic aspect. If the meat never gets warmed above 60°C in the inside, then this makes me think.

Sous vide is a great way of doing it. You don't need a real sous-vide machine to do it either. You can do it with just a plastic zip top baggie and an ice chest.

Fill up your beer cooler with water just a couple degrees higher than the temperature you'd like to cook your food at (to account for temperature loss when you add cold food to it), seal your food in a plastic Ziplock bag*, drop it in, and close your beer cooler until your food is cooked. It's as simple as that.

*FYI: The air in a plastic bag can be removed by slowly dipping the open bag with your food in it into the water, sealing it just before the water starts to pour inside. It's not as air-free an environment as a vacuum-sealed bag, but it's enough to keep the food submerged, and in contact with the water, which is all that's really important.

For a medium rare steak, you're looking at 140 degrees. Just get your water a couple degrees hotter than that, put it in your ice chest, throw your steak in a baggie in, weight it down with a plate or something, and close the lid. It only takes about 45 minutes to do. I finish it off with a quick sear on the stove. It's wonderful. The best part about sous vide cooking is that it's literally impossible to overcook something. It's only going to get as hot as your water is.

You don't have to worry about bacteria inside the middle of your steak. Steak just doesn't have the parasites like pork or chicken does - its too acidic of an environment for them. Bacteria can only live on the outside of a steak, and those are killed off when you cook it, no matter what level of done-ness it is on the inside.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3743657.stm

Skybird

03-22-12, 03:43 PM

Bake it in the oven longer.

And the reason why I recommend doing it the other way around - bake, THEN sear - is that you end up with the same amount of "done-ness" from end to end in your steak. If you do pan then oven, I've found that you get a brown crust, a pink center, and a band of overcooked meat in between. By doing it in the oven first, you get your pink center, and then you develop your brown crust on the outside with a short amount of time in the pan. Too short to let that overcooked band develop.

Sous vide is a great way of doing it. You don't need a real sous-vide machine to do it either. You can do it with just a plastic zip top baggie and an ice chest.

For a medium rare steak, you're looking at 140 degrees. Just get your water a couple degrees hotter than that, put it in your ice chest, throw your steak in a baggie in, weight it down with a plate or something, and close the lid. It only takes about 45 minutes to do. I finish it off with a quick sear on the stove. It's wonderful. The best part about sous vide cooking is that it's literally impossible to overcook something. It's only going to get as hot as your water is.

You don't have to worry about bacteria inside the middle of your steak. Steak just doesn't have the parasites like pork or chicken does - its too acidic of an environment for them. Bacteria can only live on the outside of a steak, and those are killed off when you cook it, no matter what level of done-ness it is on the inside.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3743657.stm

From one of Joe'S links, I take this:

Safety: Any time you eat undercooked meat, you are running a risk of food-borne illness. Use your own judgment to weigh whether or not your pleasure is worth this risk. And if pleasure is not your priority, seriously consider becoming a vegan. At 130°F and above, bacteria will cease to multiply, but lower than this, and bacteria will multiply at an accelerated rate. If cooking your steak below 130°F, do not leave it in the water bath for any longer than four hours.

130°F is about 54°C.

Beyond that, I understand that your method of baking first, searing second, kind of copies the sous-vide method, with different timing and temperature though.

I wonder if there is a way to use a microwave oven for the baking/waterbathing, and then grilling it? Anyone having tried microwaves on raw meat? If that is possible, it would be the by far most comfortable solution.

Skybird

03-22-12, 04:03 PM

mookiemookie

03-22-12, 04:14 PM

joegrundman

03-22-12, 04:23 PM

What about doing sous-vide in a pressure cooker at lowest possible heat? Or a big pot with water? Can the low heat of around 55-65°C be acchieved in that, or does it unavoidably become hotter? I never measured it.

I do not have a big cooling box, and I do not need one. And the thing is big indeed, I do not know where to store it. So I am looking for a more managable alternative. Preferrably with an item thjat already has its place in my household.

yes you can do it with a big pot. i have done this several times.

you need a large pot and a thermometer, and keep it on the lowest possible heat. you have to monitor it, but the temperature can easily vary this way, and the degree of cooked will be determined by the highest level of the temperature variation. it is difficult to keep it finely controlled.

may actually be easier to put the waterbath in the oven rather than on top of the stove, since you can typically set oven temperatures more precisely.

mookie's method has similarities to the sous vide method, but the key difference is that since his oven is set hotter than the required internal meat temperature, then the degree of 'doneness' is determined by time in the oven.

but if the cooking temperature is set exactly at the required internal temperature, then the cooking time becomes (more-or-less) irrelevant, and only the temperature matters.

anyway it is great fun to try this, but the amount of effort makes it not something you are likely to want to do very often :DL

soft boiled eggs btw are famously awesome done this way! google for the time and temp required!

Skybird

03-22-12, 04:43 PM

joegrundman

03-22-12, 05:01 PM

That is good info from both of you, Joe&Mookie. I definitely will try it both ways. Since there are sort of similiarities b etween both methods, you two are giving mutual confirmation, so to speak. :)

you are welcome

another thing to watch out for with the pot is that the temperature at the top will be lower than the temperature at the bottom. The food objects will interfere with the convection currents, and evaporation at the top will lower the temp.

therefore you need to kind of stir the water too!

in the oven may be better than on the stove top. and i think the icebox method sounds better again

frau kaleun

03-22-12, 05:47 PM

What about doing sous-vide

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/12/13/35adf9bf-d8c5-4519-b16c-fad1982e93df.jpg

I only know "sous-vide" as a word they throw around a lot on Top Chef. :O:

Skybird

03-22-12, 06:14 PM

sous=under
vide=emptiness, vacuum

So it means: cooking in vacuum.

:woot:

mookiemookie

03-22-12, 08:01 PM

yes you can do it with a big pot. i have done this several times.

you need a large pot and a thermometer, and keep it on the lowest possible heat. you have to monitor it, but the temperature can easily vary this way, and the degree of cooked will be determined by the highest level of the temperature variation. it is difficult to keep it finely controlled.

may actually be easier to put the waterbath in the oven rather than on top of the stove, since you can typically set oven temperatures more precisely.

mookie's method has similarities to the sous vide method, but the key difference is that since his oven is set hotter than the required internal meat temperature, then the degree of 'doneness' is determined by time in the oven.

but if the cooking temperature is set exactly at the required internal temperature, then the cooking time becomes (more-or-less) irrelevant, and only the temperature matters.

anyway it is great fun to try this, but the amount of effort makes it not something you are likely to want to do very often :DL

soft boiled eggs btw are famously awesome done this way! google for the time and temp required!

This is really good advice! If your oven will go low enough to maintain a 130-140 temperature (lowest mine goes is 175) then you can certainly do it in the oven. A sous vide steak is certainly something that's worth the effort at least once in your life.

gimpy117

03-22-12, 08:16 PM

From one of Joe'S links, I take this:

Safety: Any time you eat undercooked meat, you are running a risk of food-borne illness. Use your own judgment to weigh whether or not your pleasure is worth this risk. And if pleasure is not your priority, seriously consider becoming a vegan. At 130°F and above, bacteria will cease to multiply, but lower than this, and bacteria will multiply at an accelerated rate. If cooking your steak below 130°F, do not leave it in the water bath for any longer than four hours.

130°F is about 54°C.

130 degrees is a little bit low even, I wouldn't be too worried, but usually steaks are like 150 degrees, Pork is 165, and fish 144 for saftey. at least as far as we know in meat dept. and I think im quoting those numbers right

Sailor Steve

03-22-12, 08:19 PM

I've cooked steaks in a pan, and sometimes they were pretty good. I've never put one in an oven. My George Foreman grill does a pretty good job, but it's hard to clean.

I have got to get another hibachi. Nothing tastes like a steak, or a burger, cooked over a coal-fired open flame.

mookiemookie

03-22-12, 09:01 PM

130 degrees is a little bit low even, I wouldn't be too worried, but usually steaks are like 150 degrees, Pork is 165, and fish 144 for saftey. at least as far as we know in meat dept. and I think im quoting those numbers right

If you cooked my steak to 150 degrees, I'd send it back and say I ordered a steak, not a piece of charcoal. :O:

The government numbers on what's "safe" to eat are so full of crap. I've been eating rare steak all my life, and eggs over easy, and eating off of the corner roach coach food truck, and never have I had food poisoning from any of them.

Now food from the food court in the mall, or from the Holiday Inn...oh you betcha bubba. Been more sick from those supposedly "safe" sources than anything else.

U570

03-23-12, 12:26 AM

If you cooked my steak to 150 degrees, I'd send it back and say I ordered a steak, not a piece of charcoal. :O:

The government numbers on what's "safe" to eat are so full of crap. I've been eating rare steak all my life, and eggs over easy, and eating off of the corner roach coach food truck, and never have I had food poisoning from any of them.

Now food from the food court in the mall, or from the Holiday Inn...oh you betcha bubba. Been more sick from those supposedly "safe" sources than anything else.
Just so long as it's out of the bacteria 'hot zone', 3-65 Celcius it is always a fine piece of food.

Skybird

03-23-12, 06:24 AM

Just so long as it's out of the bacteria 'hot zone', 3-65 Celcius it is always a fine piece of food.

Jez, 65°C is 149°F.

I repeat my earlier question: has nobody ever tried to use a mild microwave treatment, then putting it into the pan? And wouldn't the microwaves help to kill germs?

joegrundman

03-23-12, 03:31 PM

Jez, 65°C is 149°F.

I repeat my earlier question: has nobody ever tried to use a mild microwave treatment, then putting it into the pan? And wouldn't the microwaves help to kill germs?

i don't know much about advanced microwave cooking, so i stand to be corrected. But i imagine you would have problems. Microwaves do not cook evenly, and produce distinct hotspots due to the focus of the waves and also the characteristics of the food.

the rotating plate is an attempt to mitigate this effect, but it is still clearly visible. eg. try melting a pack of butter in a microwave - you will see the waves create a hole in the center of the butter while the rest is still solid. also put a wiener sausage in the microwave for 10 seconds and you will see the ends heat up before the middle.

even defrosting a chicken breast can result in narrow extremities becoming cooked while the rest is still frozen solid.

so it is my guess that a sophisticated approach would be required to even out the cooking effect using a microwave, but i do not know what that would be.

Skybird

03-23-12, 06:50 PM

Mookie, I need your advise.

Had a 300 gr point steak today. I let it rest at room temperature for around an hour, it had 18°C, then used salt, black pepper and fresh garlic on it. I put it into the oven on a plate, at 130-140°C (its difficult to reach a precise temperaturwe with an ordinary household oven). A needle to measure the temperature was stuck into the heart of the meat.

However, after 7 minutes the steak's heart was at 36°C already, but still looking red as before, like fresh from the refrigerator. I switched off the oven to slow the temperature rise.

But the temperature climbed and climbed, and very fast, impossible to keep it at 35°C (the minimum mark is 50°C). I opened the door early, then took the meat out after 12 minutes - the temperature meanwhile had spiked to almost 45°C, but the meat on the outdside still looked and felt like raw meat, fresh from the refrigerator. I have bitten into it, and it had the exact same consitency asd any usual raw beef meat. I felt like that, and it looked like that, the only difference was that it was warm, considerably warmer than body temperature.

I meanwhile had heated up a heavy cast iron pan to max heat, and when using olive oil, it smoked. Put the meat into it for 2 minutes, and did not touch it, then flipped sides, and went another 2 minutes. Then put it out of the pan and onto a warm plate, sealed it into aluminium foil and let it reast for 6 or 7 minutes.

After that, there was the juice in the alumium foil, the meat was done with a slightly rosy heart, well: it tasted okay, and was absolutely eatable, but - it was nothing special, nothing different, it did not make the smallest or the slightest difference to throwing it into the pan immediately and occasionally flipping sides and immediately serving it - the way I have done it for years. I would not like to do this effort again for this kind of absolutely mediocre result.

It made no difference at all, not in consistency, and not in taste. All it did was to triple the preparation time. The whole oven thing was totally in vain, and made no noticable difference at all.

Now I sit and wonder...!?!?

Will be gone Saturday and most of Sunday, will not be back before Sunday night.

Any advise and feedback welcomed. I have a second steak bought today, the same kind like today, so I can try again with exactly the same type of meat. I just cannot try it every couple of days, its too expensive for me. :) But I want to know.

P.S. It makes no difference to use garlic before cooking it in the pan. When putting it into the pan, the garlic burns black within the first minute. No arome or taste was left, only salt and pepper survived. I used a smashed claw (quite a big one) on both sides before putting it into the oven.

mookiemookie

03-23-12, 07:33 PM

Mookie, I need your advise.

Had a 300 gr point steak today. I let it rest at room temperature for around an hour, it had 18°C, then used salt, black pepper and fresh garlic on it. I put it into the oven on a plate, at 130-140°C (its difficult to reach a precise temperaturwe with an ordinary household oven). A needle to measure the temperature was stuck into the heart of the meat.

However, after 7 minutes the steak's heart was at 36°C already, but still looking red as before, like fresh from the refrigerator. I switched off the oven to slow the temperature rise.

But the temperature climbed and climbed, and very fast, impossible to keep it at 35°C (the minimum mark is 50°C). I opened the door early, then took the meat out after 12 minutes - the temperature meanwhile had spiked to almost 45°C, but the meat on the outdside still looked and felt like raw meat, fresh from the refrigerator. I have bitten into it, and it had the exact same consitency asd any usual raw beef meat. I felt like that, and it looked like that, the only difference was that it was warm, considerably warmer than body temperature. This sounds about right. When the meat comes out of the oven, it's going to look dry and darker red than it did before it went in, but it's still going to look a lot like uncooked meat.

I meanwhile had heated up a heavy cast iron pan to max heat, and when using olive oil, it smoked. I wouldn't use olive oil as it has a low smoke point. It's preferable to use a vegetable oil like soybean oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil. Not sure what would be most common and cost effective over there for you.

After that, there was the juice in the alumium foil, the meat was done with a slightly rosy heart, well: it tasted okay, and was absolutely eatable, but - it was nothing special, nothing different, it did not make the smallest or the slightest difference to throwing it into the pan immediately and occasionally flipping sides and immediately serving it - the way I have done it for years. I would not like to do this effort again for this kind of absolutely mediocre result.

It made no difference at all, not in consistency, and not in taste. All it did was to triple the preparation time. The whole oven thing was totally in vain, and made no noticable difference at all.

Hmm. :hmmm: If I did a steak strictly in the pan, I would end up with something like this:

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/856/856,1297257657,9/stock-photo-sirloin-steak-medium-rare-with-chips-peas-70820734.jpg

The very center is the color I'm looking for, but it's surrounded by a wide band of overdone meat.

The results I get when I do it my way usually look more like:

http://www.thegourmetforager.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Medium-rare.jpg

P.S. It makes no difference to use garlic before cooking it in the pan. When putting it into the pan, the garlic burns black within the first minute. No arome or taste was left, only salt and pepper survived. I used a smashed claw (quite a big one) on both sides before putting it into the oven.

I wouldn't use fresh garlic, as it burns very quickly and tastes bitter. I use garlic powder. You can omit this if you like.

TarJak

03-23-12, 08:47 PM

Best steak is grass-fed rib eye or sirloin. Don't over cook it and make sure your grill or pan is as hot as it can get before putting your meet on it. It should be a minimum of 3-4cm thick otherwise it's not worth eating

I almost never season it before cooking but put a little olive oil in the pan or on the grill first.

Don't flip your steak over until you start to see some colour coming up the side. Only turn it once. Never turn more than that.

Don't be afraid of feeling your meat. Best way to test if it's done is the finger test: http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/the_finger_test_to_check_the_doneness_of_meat/

http://www.taste.com.au/images/articles/cooking-steak03191816.jpg

Always rest your meat for about 5-10 mins before eating. The meat will continue to cook gently during this time.

The accompaniments are as important as the steak. A fresh salad with fetta and balsamic with some slow cooked onions or sautee'd mushrooms are a perfect way to round it off. Also the wine you drink with it makes a big difference. Depending on your tastes a well rounded Cabernet Sauvignon or Shiraz does the job.

I never microwave or oven cook steak. Always cook it properly on your BBQ grill or pan.

Skybird

03-24-12, 06:40 AM

Will give it another go on Monday, when I'm back. Cheers!

mookiemookie

03-25-12, 12:28 PM

Sky, just for you I'm posting a visual walkthrough of how I cook a steak. My fiance was just accepted into dental hygiene school at the University of Texas, so I made a steak dinner to celebrate. Here's how I did it:

First we start out with our steaks. I picked up two 20 oz. New York Strip steaks at the butcher shop. Each one is about 1.5 to 2" thick. Yes, I'm serious about steak. Here they are sitting on the counter while I do prep on the rest of the meal:

http://i.imgur.com/DtbmW.jpg

I've set my oven to 275 degrees, and it's ready to go. I seasoned both sides of the meat with a creole seasoning that I like to put on everything. Here they are set over a foil lined, rimmed baking sheet (you can already see a bit of grease on the foil because I had used it to cook bacon for our baked potatoes...I figured no need to get a new piece of foil, just set the wire rack in and put the steaks on it). The probe thermometer is in and ready to go.

http://i.imgur.com/2U2Cy.jpg

These were some really thick steaks, so they took a while to come up to temp. I don't recall exactly how long as I had gotten into the wine by this point. Could have been a half hour? I'm not sure. Here I've just pulled them out of the oven. They don't look very appealing at this point, but we'll soon fix that.

http://i.imgur.com/uM0XX.jpg

Into the pan they go for two minutes. Note that I'm not using a cast iron pan here as mine needs to be re-seasoned and I haven't gotten around to it yet, so I'm just using a regular stainless steel pan set over high heat. I used a bit of vegetable (soybean) oil and heated the pan until the oil started smoking a bit. I used a plate to weight the steaks down while they seared.

http://i.imgur.com/N4xYE.jpg

First side done, time to flip:

http://i.imgur.com/jd8t7.jpg

Here they are plated, tented loosely with foil and resting for 10 minutes:

http://i.imgur.com/9F2eJ.jpg

How's that for a steak dinner? Strip steaks cooked medium rare, and since we're being decadent there's a dollop of thyme and sage butter on top. Accompanied by a loaded baked potato and some mushrooms.

http://i.imgur.com/4PJXM.jpg

joegrundman

03-25-12, 03:44 PM

that's proper food there mookie

respect

Sailor Steve

03-25-12, 04:05 PM

You know, I'm really starting to hate this thread.

Haven't had a steak in months. :cry:

mookiemookie

03-25-12, 05:06 PM

You know, I'm really starting to hate this thread.

Haven't had a steak in months. :cry:

You gotta look for the sales. I got those for $8.99/lb.

Sailor Steve

03-25-12, 10:42 PM

And I can eat a bowl of ramen for 25 cents.

It's okay, I'll have one in a week or so. :sunny:

razark

03-25-12, 11:55 PM

And I can eat a bowl of ramen for 25 cents.
You must have some very large bowls if it takes 25 cents to fill them with ramen.

Skybird

03-26-12, 07:26 AM

Wowh, Mookie, copied, saved and printed that illustrated guide. Thanks a lot! I will try it. Maybe I picked the wrong meat, and maybe it also was sliced too thin.

Again, thanks. Much appreciated!

mookiemookie

03-26-12, 08:11 AM

It could be. If your meat is thinly sliced, there's no real advantage to doing it my way. I wouldn't bother with it unless the meat's at least 1" thick.

Sailor Steve

03-26-12, 10:39 AM

You must have some very large bowls if it takes 25 cents to fill them with ramen.
Well, there are packets for 19 cents, but prices change from week to week.

Skybird

03-27-12, 09:18 AM

I just tried again, but with the rest of the meat I had, so it was probably too thin a slice, however, I experimented with the microwave to let it replace the oven part.

And it seems to work.

Point is you do not want the meat to turn grey or turn hot, right? So you need to be careful. Do not run the 600 or 850Watt level for several minutes. I used 450 Watts in two intervals of 20 seconds each, flipping sides between both phases. I would not go higher than 450 Watts, maybe even cut lower to 300 Watts. After that the meat looked like raw, still was as juicy as before, was red, but warm inside and outside, with around 35°C inside. No burnt spots on the surface, like you easily can get when thawing froozen chicken in the micro, for example.

It'S no revolution, but if you want to use an oven the way Mookie describes it, using the microwave carefully and at low radiation levels and for short times only maybe makes it a bit more comfortable a work in your kitchen. In mine, it does. Remember, the micro should just warm it up to the temperature Mookie recommends - you do not want to cook the steak in it.

After the 40 seconds in the micro, let it rest for 1-2 minutes.

I then used the heated pan as usual, and had to jump to the smoke detectors three minutes later, since I had forgotten to switch them off. :D The smoke in the kitchen can trigger them, since my appartement is small so the smoke can activate them even with all windows open.

TarJak

03-29-12, 06:07 AM

Saw Heston cooking steak tonight on the TV and some of his techniques are a bit different to mine but some are exactly the same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9NgOZuUXM

I'll definitely be trying this method next time I cook my steaks.

Skybird

04-18-12, 12:32 PM

This is just to give an update on and confirm the use of microwave ovens.

In the past weeks I had the opportunity to work with very very nice filet steaks, when I cooked togetehr with freinds, got invited, and on a family birthday.

I know it must sound like a sacrileg for some, but using a microwave at very low Watts is a very practicable way to prepare the meat before it goes into the pan.

The trick is to use low energy only, and to slowly apporoach to the inner core tempeatrure of 31-33°C that you want. Run the micro in short-timed intervals, than use a thermometer to check temperature, and poke it always into the same hole, so that you do not perforate your precious meat. Use 250-300 Watts only.

It is possible warm up the meat, no matter how thick or how much it is, to the desired temperature, without the colour or the surface changing at all. You then have the effect that in earlier descriptions get acchieved by putting it into a waterbath, or into the oven. But it is less confusion in the kitchen, I dare say, to use the micro instead! Once you have the meat at the temp you wanted, switch the micro off for sure, and leave the meat alone and prepare your dinner and the pan.

When your preparations are done, salt the meat, and put it into the hotter-than-hell pan+some oil, 2 minutes each side, no stirring. Afterwards, wrap in alumium foil, and let it rest for 5-10 minutes.

I have done it three times now since my last posting, with 12 pieces of 1st class meat, and it became perfect, absolutely perfect, with different pans, different microwaves, in three different kitchens.

Using the microwave !carefully! absolutely is an option. Remember, low Watt, short intervals until you are there. Much easier than sous-vide, or oven.

I also recommend not to use one of the usual grid -filters (do not reliable catch oil splashes) or closed lids (turn the pan into a cooking pot with plenty of boiliung water inside, what is not wanted) to avoid squirts of oil turning your kitchen into a mess, but one of these pyrimd-formed lids with a hole on top. Humidity and steam can escape, but the oil stays inside. It also increases overall temperature. For using a pan, these items are perfect and save you a lot of cleaning work in the kitchen.

Nippelspanner

04-18-12, 12:48 PM

After trying different methods of making Steaks, I stick with Jamie Olivers way to do it. Fantastic results for me so far, highly recommended.

Jamie Oliver - Perfect Steak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtjo8DDspx0)

Great, now Im hungry again... :shifty:

Aramike

04-18-12, 09:02 PM

Now steaks - this I know.

First off, someone said it earlier, the grill is the way to go. However, if you can't grill, a marinade will help.

Aramike's Pan Seared Steak Marinade Recipe:

1/2 Cup Soy Sauce
3/4 Cup Water
2 cloves fresh garlic, minced
1 Tbsp fresh ground black pepper.

Works best with tenderloin filets.

Now, for grilling, it's even easier. Coat each steak with Olive Oil. Salt liberally with Lawry's seasoned salt, or some substitution. And I mean salt the hell out of the steaks, both sides. Throw on some fresh pepper.

Next, heat your grill to "hot as hell" level. Either white coals, or 500+ degress on a gas model. Put the steaks directly over heat for a minute or so, then turn them a quarter turn each, and let them cook for another minute. Leaves great marks for appearance. Flip and repeat.

After that, my trick is simple: resalt any cut except for a filet, as most of the salt will either cook off or rinse off with the dripping fat. But then, the most important thing is to not grill any side for longer than 90 seconds or so. This prevents one side from drying out while the other is off the heat.

Finally, learn the feel. Here's a good link: http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/the_finger_test_to_check_the_doneness_of_meat/

I absolutely HATE meat thermometers for steaks, as piercing them cause you to lose juices, and food safety really isn't a huge issue here.

Anyway, give it a shot if you'd like. All I can say is this: when my friends buy steaks, they bring me one in exchange for me grilling them. The A1 always makes an appearance, but never gets used.

Nicolas

04-19-12, 01:07 AM

Steaks are ok in the week :O:, but to have a good 'asado' you need to do this: and no carbon wood only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1ZzfziaN8g&feature=relmfu

gimpy117

04-19-12, 02:20 AM

center chuck eye steaks. Come from close to the ribeye and are somewhat cheap yet good

Skybird

04-19-12, 04:46 AM

I hate to read that the team of medical scientists around a Nobel prize winner who four years ago got the Nobel for his discovery of virusses causing cervical cancer - a discovery which led to the developement of a vaccination that is recommended now for all girls from a certain age on - now formed the theory that the consummation of red beef causes colon cancer due to virusses involved again that live inside cattle but do not get killed at the temperatures that the meat gets heated up to. He bases on overwhelming statistical correlations between beed consummation in different cultures, and rates of colon cancer. The rates are high for countries wehre beef is eaten a lot, and here they are higher where the prefrred cooking means to serve it almost red. Colon cancer drops with declining consummation of beef in other cultures. In Africa and the Muslim world, it is very low (they eat goats and lamb -, and in India - holy cows and all that prohibiting them to eat beef - colon cancer is almost unknown. They said that the research on verifying the theory so far seems to confirm it.

Nippelspanner

04-19-12, 07:54 AM

Thanks for this information Skybird *sigh*

Whats the colon cancer rate in Argentina?
They eat around 75Kg of red meat a year - in germany its around 20Kg IIRC. So, over there, the rates must be high... If this will be confirmed (I dont dare to google) I become vegetarian/vegan - and die because of sadness to never eat awesome food again :cry::nope:

A Nevermind! Gimme lots of Steak and cancer, we all have to die some day!:arrgh!:

joegrundman

04-22-12, 08:19 AM

Further the discussion on Kobe/Wagyu beef earlier in this thread.

I came across an article that strongly states that there is NO kobe beef outside of Japan (except Macao), and that there isn't in fact any such thing as Wagyu beef. It is all just a marketing scam in western countries (and with a rather disturbing conclusion about US willingness to infringe foreign trademarks for domestic benefit while spending a lot of effort on enforcing overseas respect of US trademarks).

Here it is:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2012/04/12/foods-biggest-scam-the-great-kobe-beef-lie/

Well I lived in Japan and did in fact eat Kobe beef on a number of occasions and do not think it optimal for a western style steak, although it is exceptional for certain other food preparations.

Skybird

04-22-12, 09:02 AM

Hasn't it been said that the Japanese don't export original Wagyu-Kobe beef? What is to be found in the Western shops, more precisely should - and sometimes gets - labelled as Wagyu-Kobe Style beef. While this may serve as an indication that it is no original WK, I still wonder in what way style has something to do with it, or in how far WK could be considered as just a thing of "style". Wagyu is a race of cattle (or a group of races, to be precise), and Kobe indicates the province where it is being bred (not to mistake it with Kobe beef, which is just another name for Wagyu beef). There are some small populations of Wagyus (non-Kobe :) ) in America and Europe, but that there are Wagyu-Kobes outside Japan is impossible, therefore. Like there is no Lübecker marcipane from London.

Wagyu-Kobes need much longer time before they can be slaughtered, and their fat is spread differently inside the meat, more marbled in pattern. Of all beef types, it has the lowest ammount of saturated fats. They get fed quite superior fodder, plenty of corn.

Traders at German Amazon offer 2.5 kg of Wagyu-Kobe Style beef - for almost 500 Euros. :sunny: So much for dinner.

Original Wagyu Kobe meat in Japan can cost up to 500-600 per Kilo.

Gargamel

04-06-17, 07:06 PM

Didn't want to start a new thread for a simple comment... so....

Usually when i get my steaks from the store, I put each one in it's own ziplock, or sometimes enough for one serving each for the household.

But our schedules don't really allow for good meal planning, as we have random times we get home in the evening, or too late altogether. So defrosting the steaks when we want steaks is an issue, since we can't leave them out to thaw as they may not get used that day. And I hate using the microwave, as it tends to cook a small part of the meat.

This may not be revolutionary, but I have discovered this neat little trick for rapidly thawing the steaks, and it works well for any meat.

Make sure the zip lock is sealed, and doesn't have any holes in it. Draw up a large bowl/pot of hot water and let the bags soak in the water for 20 minutes or so. Voila, thawed meat. This takes about the length of time it takes me to start the charcoal, and chop up the veggies for sauteing. When the veggies are done, the grills ready, and the meats freshly thawed.

This technique as works pretty well for bagging the meat. Put the meat in a bag, leaving the opening slightly open, and submerge the bag in water. It forces the air out of the bag, so when you freeze it, it reduces the chance of freezer burn.

Skybird

04-07-17, 05:43 AM

Steaks with - veggies...? Brrrr...! :doh: Heresy! Leave a man his meat! :D

:haha:

Skybird

04-07-17, 05:51 AM

Aramike's Pan Seared Steak Marinade Recipe:

1/2 Cup Soy Sauce
3/4 Cup Water
2 cloves fresh garlic, minced
1 Tbsp fresh ground black pepper.

Doing the zombie walk here, "soy sauce".

Many people I met did not know that there is a huge difference between Chinese and Japanese soy sauce on the one hand, and Indonesian soy sauce, which is called "Ketjap", Ketjap Asin or Ketjap Manis. Assuming Aramike talked of Chinese/Japanese soy sauce, I advise you, if you do not know it already, to taste Indonesian soy sauce as well. It is thicker, less salty, hassweetness and quite some flavours and aromes to it, it is more complex a sauce than the Japanese and Chinese soy sauce.

It can be used cold and warm, pure or mixed with Sherry, chicken soup, cayenne pepper or chili, and sugar. This sauce tastes very well if not shying away from making it even sweeter than it is. But it does not compare to the red sweet chilly sauces we also know, it is very different.

Can be used and served to almost everything: Wok-cooking, grilled meat like chicken, beef, fish, on - veggies :wah:, pure rice. Personally, I kill for it.

Jimbuna

04-07-17, 06:50 AM

Doing the zombie walk here, "soy sauce".

Many people I met did not know that there is a huge difference between Chinese and Japanese soy sauce on the one hand, and Indonesian soy sauce, which is called "Ketjap", Ketjap Asin or Ketjap Manis. Assuming Aramike talked of Chinese/Japanese soy sauce, I advise you, if you do not know it already, to taste Indonesian soy sauce as well. It is thicker, less salty, hassweetness and quite some flavours and aromes to it, it is more complex a sauce than the Japanese and Chinese soy sauce.

It can be used cold and warm, pure or mixed with Sherry, chicken soup, cayenne pepper or chili, and sugar. This sauce tastes very well if not shying away from making it even sweeter than it is. But it does not compare to the red sweet chilly sauces we also know, it is very different.

Can be used and served to almost everything: Wok-cooking, grilled meat like chicken, beef, fish, on - veggies :wah:, pure rice. Personally, I kill for it.

QFT....had many an enjoyable meal that included Ketjap during my travels in Indonesia :salute: