Rogue Soldier kills Afghan civilians [Archive]

Torplexed

03-11-12, 09:28 AM

This incident has been a double tragedy. Obviously, the deaths of innocents, but also the mental breakdown of a soldier. I wouldn't call it a "My Lai" as it was a lone wolf crazy following his own deranged orders, but it may not matter.

After the urinating incident, and the Koran burning incident we are in position where profuse (and desperate sounding) apologies from afar don't cut it anymore...if they ever did. :nope:

Schroeder

03-11-12, 10:04 AM

Oh boy, here we'll go again....:damn:

Don't hands out weapons to mentally unstable people.:damn::damn:

Dowly

03-11-12, 10:09 AM

:nope:

Skybird

03-11-12, 11:23 AM

Oh boy, here we'll go again....:damn:

Don't hands out weapons to mentally unstable people.:damn::damn:
Everybody has his breaking point. EVERYBODY. For some it is more upwards on the scale, for others it is somewhere lower. Expose any man long enough to war, and he finds his sooner or later.

This guy just found his.

Onkel Neal

03-11-12, 11:24 AM

Turn him over to the Afghan legal system.

Gargamel

03-11-12, 11:28 AM

Turn him over to the Afghan legal system.

Normally, I'd say let the military courts handle this. But no this time. This needs to be handled by the locals for multiple reasons. Their closure and international relations just to name a couple.

Torplexed

03-11-12, 11:33 AM

Normally, I'd say let the military courts handle this. But no this time. This needs to be handled by the locals for multiple reasons. Their closure and international relations just to name a couple.

They simply can't do it. Recruiting would likely plummet like a rock if we started the precedent of handing our wayward soldiers over to local justice, no matter the crime.

Onkel Neal

03-11-12, 11:36 AM

Possibly true, we should try it and see.

Jimbuna

03-11-12, 12:47 PM

I'm beginning to think relations are so low they'll never recover now.

Skybird

03-11-12, 12:49 PM

There is no clear info at this time. Was this a monkey trying to have "fun", a retarded bastard? Then hand him over to the locals. But early reports said he had a nervous breakdown, and his psyche was/is instabile. It is a reasonable guess to assume that this may be the results form mhaving seen too much, havingm lived in war conditions, stress, and having fear for too long. In this case, do not hand him over, but practice the military'S laws on him.

The negative consequences in Afghanistan should not be pointed out that much. Relations are already that bad, in cannot get any worse, I would say.

u crank

03-11-12, 01:00 PM

I'm beginning to think relations are so low they'll never recover now.

Sad but probably true. It's a no win situation and hard to imagine any good outcome. To bad.

Sailor Steve

03-11-12, 01:04 PM

I was agreeing with Neal's comment until I read Skybird's comment. What is the correct course of action in a case like this? I have no idea.

Then I read u-crank's comment, and I'm reminded of Walt Kelly's Pogo, and his twist on a famous military statement: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

STEED

03-11-12, 01:44 PM

I'm beginning to think relations are so low they'll never recover now.

Best thing get out fast.

Jimbuna

03-11-12, 02:06 PM

Best thing get out fast.

I should imagine President Karzai has already got his escape route/package worked out.

nikimcbee

03-11-12, 02:11 PM

In hind site, maybe we sould just give Afghanistan back to the Russians. Let them run that place.:dead:

Maybe it's time we just go.
The whole thing is just tragic. No winners.

August

03-11-12, 02:37 PM

They simply can't do it. Recruiting would likely plummet like a rock if we started the precedent of handing our wayward soldiers over to local justice, no matter the crime.

The precedent has already been set. Not in Afghanistan or Iraq (yet) but we have allowed our troops to be prosecuted by local authority in the past. It all depends on the Status of Forces agreement, if any, we have with the host country.

Oberon

03-11-12, 02:47 PM

In hind site, maybe we sould just give Afghanistan back to the Russians. Let them run that place.:dead:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/002/144/fry.jpg

Rockstar

03-11-12, 05:30 PM

No doubt this is a bad situation all around, for EVERONE. Something might have snapped in his head. Hopefully he will be treated fairly and not made an example of if he indeed has physiological problems. Did any of a you arm chair judges consider this soldier might have suffered PTSD or another mental disorder, seething anger with no intervention. As well as seeing horrendous things done to his buddies by the very people they are there to protect. This isn't a video game you know.

Our system of "impartial and blind" justice is not perfect, but it is what separates us from an angry mob looking for vengeance. Should we hand him over? NO. Because WE THE PEOPLE sent that soldier over to that god forsaken hellhole when we jumped on the freedom and democracy bandwagon. So WE THE PEOPLE need to act like we talk, and see justice served. Not throw him over the walls and let the dogs tear him apart.

Takeda Shingen

03-11-12, 06:33 PM

I think that the real victims were probably those women and children he killed. Just saying.

Rockstar

03-11-12, 07:47 PM

Yes most difenetely the victims we're the Afganistan people here. But again I say let's not forget the soldiers we ask to do the most heinous acts of barbarism in the name of those hollow words of freedom and democracy. War takes a toll on the hearts and minds of the men and women WE THE PEOPLE send over there.

War sucks its not something you can just turn off with a remote. There are other consequences in real life and PTSD is one of them, assuming that's the case with this particular soldier. If not then let a jury of his peers decide not a foreign nations kangaroo court.

I am not saying anyone should coddle this soldier. But we should put our money where our mouth is and afford him a fair and just trial he deserves rather throwing him to the wolves to save face.

Platapus

03-11-12, 09:12 PM

Why would you assume that a foreign court would be a "Kangaroo Court"?

AngusJS

03-11-12, 10:09 PM

In hind site, maybe we sould just give Afghanistan back to the Russians. Let them run that place.:dead:I've often thought that Afghanistan would have been better off if it had stayed a Soviet puppet. After the fall of the Soviet Union, it could have stayed Communist, or gone the Central Asian tinpot dictator route - either would be better than the religious fundamentalism and tribalism there now.

em2nought

03-11-12, 10:31 PM

Sailor Steve

03-12-12, 12:10 AM

Our gov't should make military hand him over to the barbarians, and then military should stage a coup(With a leader like Ike who distrusts the military industrial complex) against our gov't. Best results we could get out of ALL of this. :D
So the military should disavow the Constitution they swore to defend, and install a dictator (for that is what he would be)? Then we could have a military leader like the one who distrusted the military?

Interesting scenario.

Jimbuna

03-12-12, 05:51 AM

The inevitable consequence...be on your guard over there.

US fears reprisals after Afghan massacre in Kandahar

US troops in Afghanistan have been placed on alert following the killings of 16 Afghan civilians by a US soldier.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336074

Hottentot

03-12-12, 06:56 AM

Seems the Kangaroo Court agrees (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9137937/US-soldier-who-killed-villagers-should-be-put-on-trial-in-Afghanistan-parliament-demands.html) with some early opinions in this thread. Wolves want their bones.

Jimbuna

03-12-12, 07:26 AM

I doubt that will happen when you take into consideration the fact that Afghanistan has signed an agreement with Nato that foreign soldiers should be tried in their own countries.

eddie

03-12-12, 11:50 AM

Now the Taliban want revenge for killing innocent civilians.

krashkart

03-12-12, 11:56 AM

Now the Taliban want revenge for killing innocent civilians.

:har:

kraznyi_oktjabr

03-12-12, 12:01 PM

Now the Taliban want revenge for killing innocent civilians.:har: Double standars rulez! :yeah:

Rockstar

03-12-12, 12:03 PM

Skybird

03-12-12, 12:20 PM

:har: Double standars rulez! :yeah:
The case in Afghanistan is lost anyway, and it is not as if the whole region/culture/place in general is that much of a precious example of why we would want to flatter it at all. The Taliban committed crimes and acts of barbarism on a regular basis before the US went in, they do it right now, and they will do it even more once they have taken over the country again. Or take Iraq. In February alone, people obeying the cultural precious rule of that shiny place have tortured and slaughtered with stones 59, other sources say over 90 teens and young men who dressed and confessed to the youth style of being "Emos". In Iran they have sentenced to death a Muslim who has converted to Christian faith and became a pastor. And then there is Shariah law, don'T get me started on that one.

Kangoroo courts, somebody said, well, considering the barbaric basis of a culture and religion these places base on, and considering the high level of corruption in Afghanistan'S administration, and political interests lobbying in the background for a sentence they want, kangaroo courts are a label that probably is not that far off the truth.

All in all I agree with Rockstar here. If the guy is a sane but criminal thug, give him the whip (the murderer, not Rockstar I mean :D ). If he is a psyche that got broken by war, make him a subject to internal military rules and laws - and give him treatement as well, if that is possible at all. I had my experiences with traumatised people, and I know that traumatisation can lead beyond a point from where you simply can never return to normality again. Therapy is no magic, nor is it omnipotent.

eddie

03-12-12, 12:31 PM

:har: Double standars rulez! :yeah:

When I read the headline about the Taliban vowing revenge for this tragic event, I was stunned for a few moments! All I could think was "Are you serious?" How can you understand their logic with a statement like this-

"The American 'terrorists' want to come up with an excuse for the perpetrator of this inhumane crime by claiming that this immoral culprit was mentally ill," the Taliban statement added. "If the perpetrators of this massacre were in fact mentally ill then this testifies to yet another moral transgression by the American military, because they are arming lunatics in Afghanistan who turn their weapons against the defenseless Afghans without giving a second thought."

We are stuck in a war that is being fought in the middle of an insane asylem! I wonder if we can get these people back on their meds.

krashkart

03-12-12, 12:32 PM

And then therfe is Shariah law, don'T get me started on that one.

We won't...

</troll>

:D

I feel pretty strongly about it, too. It contradicts damn near everything that I was raised to believe about right and wrong. Probably par for the course for many of us. My solution in lieu of understanding is to not care so much. Better for my heart in the long run, I suppose. :-?

TLAM Strike

03-12-12, 01:03 PM

We are stuck in a war that is being fought in the middle of an insane asylem! If M*A*S*H* taught us anything its that in war: insanity if the price of admission. :yep:

When you send a normal person in to a place where things that are so perversely against their ideals are the norm, their mind is sure to develop some kind of coping mechanism that will seem strange or down right wrong to those who have not experienced what they have.

krashkart

03-12-12, 01:10 PM

When you send a normal person in to a place where things that are so perversely against their ideals are the norm, their mind is sure to develop some kind of coping mechanism that will seem strange or down right wrong to those who have not experienced what they have.

+1

I've heard this saying before: There are things nobody should have to see.

Stealhead

03-12-12, 02:17 PM

Last I checked we had a constitution which guaranteed his rights against lynch mob rule. Hey if he is found guilty of murder then lead him out the gate into the hands of the victims relatives. But if there were other circumstance which lead to this then that needs to brought into the light as well. You know a fair trail. It doesn't mean we protect him and see that he gets any preferential treatment cause he's an Amerikun. We hold his feet to the fire in accordance with the laws of this land.

We sent him over there and asked him to do things We ourselves wouldn't or are afraid to do. It would be wrong of us to deny him the things we were told he was fighting for.

Well I hate to tell you this but that does not always apply to people overseas in the US military over the years many military members that have committed serious crimes such as rape and murder have been handed over to the German or Japanese judicial system.When you are in another country their laws apply if you don't want to risk the the chance of being handed over to another judicial system then as a military member do not commit a crime regardless of your mental state.When serious crimes are committed by a military member they ask the that government if they want to take the person if they then they get him or her if they don't they get the UCMJ system but that may be worse because at least in Germany or Japan that means they want the death sentence if applicable which means they got saved if they went outside the UCMJ.I do not know if we have an agreement with Afghanistan anyway so the suspect has nothing to worry about there.

A US citizen is worse off than a military member they have no protection at all from if they commit a crime in another country they get punished and maybe if they are lucky the state department might step in have a sentence reduced or they might get exchanged for prisoner.

Oberon

03-12-12, 02:34 PM

+1

I've heard this saying before: There are things nobody should have to see.

+2

War is hell. I'm glad I've never had to witness it for real...and for that I thank those that have done so on my behalf. :salute:

Bilge_Rat

03-12-12, 02:51 PM

Why would you assume that a foreign court would be a "Kangaroo Court"?

no particular reason...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/01/afghan-woman-freed-marry-rapist

http://www.bosnewslife.com/15541-detained-afghanistan-christians-facing-death-penalty

http://www.rai-see.org/news/world/2168-afghanistan-judges-arrested-and-tried-for-corruption-charges.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3660489/Corrupt-courts-release-Taliban-fanatics-to-strike-again.html

STEED

03-12-12, 04:00 PM

I should imagine President Karzai has already got his escape route/package worked out.

One way ticket to Eastbourne for the old folks home. ;)

Ducimus

03-12-12, 04:12 PM

Turn him over to the Afghan legal system.

Ordinarly, im not a big advocate of that, but In this incident, I believe that is probably the best course of action for the US and all Forces there. Anything less then turning him over to the Afghan legal system will appear that we are in collusion, or otherwise protecting this individual. Which makes EVERYBODY look bad. We need to distance ourselves from him.

My thought is give him a Court Martial that will strip him of all rank, proclaim as part of his punishment, that he is to be turned over the the Afghan legal system (Delivery to be done with him in a Prisoner jumpsuit and NOT in ANY uniform), and after his sentencing from the Afghan courts (most assuirdly death), he be given a Dishonorable discharge.

eddie

03-12-12, 04:59 PM

He is facing the death penalty if he is found sane, but according to a recent article about this, they said-

"According to military officials, the soldier will be tried within the military justice system, not turned over to Afghan authorities for trial, rebuffing a call from Afghan lawmakers to use their courts."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/12/10655946-soldier-accused-in-afghan-massacre-could-get-death-penalty

Rockstar

03-12-12, 05:04 PM

Apparently they are going to bring him back for courts martial.

Afghanistan: Casualties of a Pre-Dawn Killing Spree - The Daily Beast

http://pulse.me/s/6UpXW

.

Jimbuna

03-12-12, 05:07 PM

Ordinarly, im not a big advocate of that, but In this incident, I believe that is probably the best course of action for the US and all Forces there. Anything less then turning him over to the Afghan legal system will appear that we are in collusion, or otherwise protecting this individual. Which makes EVERYBODY look bad. We need to distance ourselves from him.

My thought is give him a Court Martial that will strip him of all rank, proclaim as part of his punishment, that he is to be turned over the the Afghan legal system (Delivery to be done with him in a Prisoner jumpsuit and NOT in ANY uniform), and after his sentencing from the Afghan courts (most assuirdly death), he be given a Dishonorable discharge.

Then I'm pleased it wasn't a Brit soldier...better the death penalty (if that is the outcome and a legal judgement) be carried out in his country of origin.

krashkart

03-12-12, 05:09 PM

no particular reason...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/01/afghan-woman-freed-marry-rapist

http://www.bosnewslife.com/15541-detained-afghanistan-christians-facing-death-penalty

http://www.rai-see.org/news/world/2168-afghanistan-judges-arrested-and-tried-for-corruption-charges.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3660489/Corrupt-courts-release-Taliban-fanatics-to-strike-again.html

Yeah... they've certainly a different slant on justice. :-? What they follow is the oldest, most simplified damned interpretation of their holy book (at least that's my understanding), not so much what most civilized people would consider to be right or sensibly justifiable. Turns my stomach to read those, but it won't be you or me or any aspect of our culture that decides to change how they do things over there.

eddie

03-12-12, 05:24 PM

Imagine what this soldiers family must feel at this time, can't picture what they must feel at a time like this either.

Penguin

03-12-12, 05:36 PM

Handling him over is a terrible idea. It would only satisfy an urge for revenge and open the dams for more.
What if a US soldier gets caught stealing? Give him to the local "justice system" and let's chop his hand off?
A female soldier not dressed properly? Hand her over to the mob outside the base?
Apples and oranges? Hardly! Bilge gave some examples about the state of jurisdiction in Afghanistan - all leave no other conclusion that handling him over would result in cruel and unusual punishment. No matter how despicable his deeds are, he still is entitled to have a fair trial. If it results in death penalty, then be it, but a firing squad would still be more just than being ripped to shreds by an angry mob.

I can't believe people have problems with the international court in The Hague, where Bush refused to acknowledge any authority over US soldiers, while on the other hand they would hand this guy over to an Afghan court.

Takeda Shingen

03-12-12, 05:47 PM

Penguin

03-12-12, 05:57 PM

We're not talking about dress code violations or petty theft. We are talking about the murder of not one, but sixteen individuals. This would be a capital case in any country that has the death penalty as an option. It is indeed apples and oranges.

We are talking about a country where barbaric (=cruel and unsusual) punishment is prevalent and where no independence of the justice system can be guaranteed.

krashkart

03-12-12, 05:59 PM

We're not talking about dress code violations or petty theft. We are talking about the murder of not one, but sixteen individuals. This would be a capital case in any country that has the death penalty as an option. It is indeed apples and oranges.

Yeah. If he'd done the same thing at a shopping center back here at home we'd be shocked and upset about it, too. There wouldn't be very many people wondering, "Gosh, I wonder what twisted him up so bad to make him go all mental on our collective asses... That poor fellow". We'd be just as wishful of his demise as anyone else, I suppose.

Takeda Shingen

03-12-12, 06:00 PM

We are talking about a country where barbaric (=cruel and unsusual) punishment is prevalent and where no independence of the justice system can be guaranteed.

And we are talking about an exceptional case. In terms of petty theft or dress code violations the argument can be easily be made that disciplinary procedures can be pursued internally. For the murder of sixteen people it becomes a difficult argument to make, regardless of the legal system.

Rockstar

03-12-12, 06:07 PM

Thank god for our justice system which, for now, prevents judgment by polling the mobs. Mobs whose only idea of war comes from video games, banners and slogans telling stories of noble warriors and flag waving scenes on TV.

This soldier faced the reality of war and did a piss poor job of toeing the line. But he should at least be brought home to be investigated. Who knows, if we turned him over to the mob we may have never known if anyone else was involved. Afganistan authorities could make up any damned thing they wanted to.

So cool the jets and let the system work.

Tribesman

03-12-12, 06:13 PM

Penguin

03-12-12, 06:21 PM

And we are talking about an exceptional case. In terms of petty theft or dress code violations the argument can be easily be made that disciplinary procedures can be pursued internally. For the murder of sixteen people it becomes a difficult argument to make, regardless of the legal system.

My "not dressed properly"-example wanted to point that over there women were killed for violating the Taliban's dress code. If you would give in to a demand for one crime, you would have double standards if you don't do it for other crimes.
So where do you draw the line? What abouit krashkart's example, someone offing 16 people in a mall in the US? Because of the severeness of the crime, we can skip procedure and hand his butt over to the families of the victims?
If Anders Breivik would have been an Afghan citizen, the state of Norway would not have handed him over to the authorities in Afghanistan, because of the very same principles I stated before.

On a side note, because it hasn't been mentioned yet: I am wondering if there are already talks about a compensation for the families.
When Germany blew up a fuel truck, which had been captured by the Taliban, there were also some civilian victims. The compensation to these families might indeed have prevented some bigger riots. It may look weird, as nothing can take the pain away about a death of a relative, but it is also a cultural thing and realpolitik.

August

03-12-12, 06:29 PM

Yeah I wonder if the irony of the Taliban accusing others of having innocent blood on their hands is lost on the average Afghani.

u crank

03-12-12, 06:35 PM

Yeah I wonder if the irony of the Taliban accusing others of having innocent blood on their hands is lost on the average Afghani.

Exactly.

Skybird

03-12-12, 06:39 PM

Guys, why don't we all wait until some more info about the details of this case gets published? We do know almost nothing about the who and the why.

All we know is that he was stationed in Joint Base Lewis McCord that is beign mentioned by insiders as being one with a very bad record in the quality list of US forst and camps, and that they have had several problematic personalities there, and we know of eye-witness reports in Afghanistan claiming that drunken GIs leave their base occassionally to conduct almost man-hunts as their way to kill time. What is claim and what is truth we do not know.

And if the man-hunt-hobby claims are true, we do not know if this is the explanation for this case now, or whether it is somethign different.

One thing should not surprise an yone, though. "Krieg vertiert". Such thiungs happen, and will nhappen again. If oyu open the gates to hell and expose men to the wrath of all gods of war, you need to understand that this will chnage them. All of them. Soem can deal with it to a certain degree and copensate, others cannot. Some collapse, some just reveal in good or bad what always was hidden inside of them, some get overthrown by the demons of war, and turn into demons themselves.

That's war. It does ennoble nobody, never.

Takeda Shingen

03-12-12, 06:42 PM

My "not dressed properly"-example wanted to point that over there women were killed for violating the Taliban's dress code. If you would give in to a demand for one crime, you would have double standards if you don't do it for other crimes.
So where do you draw the line? What abouit krashkart's example, someone offing 16 people in a mall in the US? Because of the severeness of the crime, we can skip procedure and hand his butt over to the families of the victims?

Not at all. Because in a case where a crime was committed by an American on American soil against other Americans, the clear answer is to have the case tried in the American judicial system. See what I'm getting at?

kiwi_2005

03-12-12, 07:54 PM

IMHO when a soldier is diagnose with mental problems they shouldn't keep him in service the Army should send home to recover ASAP.

Skybird

03-12-12, 09:06 PM

IMHO when a soldier is diagnose with mental problems they shouldn't keep him in service the Army should send home to recover ASAP.

Up to 40% of the German soldiers returning from Afghanistan are estimated to suffer from various degrees of PTSD. That value bases on diagnosed cases and statistical estimations on people not finding their way to psychological treatement.

Comparable numbers I have read about the US forces since Iraq, too. That'S why I said back then in 2003 and later that the real number of wounded casualties amongst Americans range in the high tens of thousands, considering the rotating in and out of troops, maybe even more.

There is a reason why defence ministries absolutely hate to speak about PTSD, and play it down: casualty numbers, and money.

Tribesman

03-13-12, 02:54 AM

IMHO when a soldier is diagnose with mental problems they shouldn't keep him in service the Army should send home to recover ASAP.

Are you Bradley Mannings brief?:03:

Blood_splat

03-13-12, 08:42 AM

Disposable Heroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F0kK45lVyk

This song comes to mind, when I use to listen to Metallica back in the day.

Fish

03-13-12, 10:33 AM

This way the Taliban wins with two fingers in their nose.

Ducimus

03-13-12, 11:33 AM

Then I'm pleased it wasn't a Brit soldier...better the death penalty (if that is the outcome and a legal judgement) be carried out in his country of origin.

Ordinary, i wouldn't suggest handing the offender over for any reason. I've lived under a SOFA agreement myself. In this (extraordinary) case, the ONLY reason for my suggestion, is damage control.

Jimbuna

03-13-12, 11:37 AM

Ordinary, i wouldn't suggest handing the offender over for any reason. I've lived under a SOFA agreement myself. In this (extraordinary) case, the ONLY reason for my suggestion, is damage control.

Fair do's...I just shudder at the thought of handing one of our own over to the enemy...the damage is probably already out of control, bring them all home.

Ducimus

03-13-12, 11:40 AM

Fair do's...I just shudder at the thought of handing one of our own over to the enemy...the damage is probably already out of control, bring them all home.

Your probably right. The middle east has a long memory, it's my understanding they still make references to the crusades from the 11th through the 13th centuries. They'd probably behead you for drawing Mohammed in a cartoon, let alone burning a koran or killing families..

eddie

03-13-12, 11:55 AM

The Taliban want revenge for killing innocent civilians, which we already know. But they have upped the threat, that they will behead whomever they capture. Meanwhile, a Government delegation was inspecting the area where the attack happened, and were promptly attacked by the Taliban.

And so it goes, just another day in loonie land.

August

03-13-12, 03:04 PM

Ordinary, i wouldn't suggest handing the offender over for any reason. I've lived under a SOFA agreement myself. In this (extraordinary) case, the ONLY reason for my suggestion, is damage control.

I think such damage control won't be very effective if at all and has to be considered versus the real damage to morale that will result by throwing a one of our own to the wolves.

Your probably right. The middle east has a long memory, it's my understanding they still make references to the crusades from the 11th through the 13th centuries. They'd probably behead you for drawing Mohammed in a cartoon, let alone burning a koran or killing families..

Maybe we need to just burn enough Korans and make enough charactures of Mohammed that their heads explode from rage. Problem solved! :up:

Ducimus

03-13-12, 03:35 PM

Maybe we need to just burn enough Korans and make enough charactures of Mohammed that their heads explode from rage. Problem solved! :up:

I got a better idea:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g281/MikeTehFox/GIFS/NukeOrbit.jpg

Jimbuna

03-13-12, 03:46 PM

I got a better idea:

That reminds me of an idea I had a while back....instead of spending the vast sums it takes to keep troops and carry out operations/occupation of these foreign lands, why not spend the money on up to date surveillance equipment to identify where this vermon nest and each time they manage to get through our homeland security measures simply exact a price that far outweighs what they have achieved....surely the message will soon get through to them.

Just a thought...I'll now get my coat.

Stealhead

03-13-12, 04:02 PM

I got a better idea:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g281/MikeTehFox/GIFS/NukeOrbit.jpg

Are you meaning tho whole thing or just a region? Cause if I where the Space Marines at that point in the future and it was still all messed up here I'd nuke the whole thing we'd have other colonies by then.:D The Xenomorphs at least kill you for a reason.

eddie

03-13-12, 10:13 PM

That reminds me of an idea I had a while back....instead of spending the vast sums it takes to keep troops and carry out operations/occupation of these foreign lands, why not spend the money on up to date surveillance equipment to identify where this vermon nest and each time they manage to get through our homeland security measures simply exact a price that far outweighs what they have achieved....surely the message will soon get through to them.

Just a thought...I'll now get my coat.

+1:D

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

03-13-12, 10:21 PM

I think such damage control won't be very effective if at all and has to be considered versus the real damage to morale that will result by throwing a one of our own to the wolves.

I think it'll send a very strong signal to US troops - don't kill civilians on a rampage. If they have morale problems following such a rule, or think a civvie killer is "one of their own", we've got huge problems.

It will be at the very least, one less legitimate reason the enemy can use.

August

03-13-12, 11:26 PM

I think it'll send a very strong signal to US troops - don't kill civilians on a rampage. If they have morale problems following such a rule, or think a civvie killer is "one of their own", we've got huge problems.

It will be at the very least, one less legitimate reason the enemy can use.

Don't misconstrue that with wanting a murderer to escape justice Kaz. We are perfectly capable of executing our criminals on our own without that whole dragging the body through the streets by his heels thing that's likely to occur if we handed him over to the mob.

Besides what if his actions were the result of insanity possibly caused by the Traumatic Brain Injury he suffered in the line of duty during one of his previous combat tours?

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

03-14-12, 12:36 AM

Don't misconstrue that with wanting a murderer to escape justice Kaz. We are perfectly capable of executing our criminals on our own without that whole dragging the body through the streets by his heels thing that's likely to occur if we handed him over to the mob.

That's assuming that the US will indeed execute him. Most likely, they'll drag the case out until the furor dies down in the maze of the American legal process, find some excuse like the insanity you mention below and give him less than his due.

That doesn't send a signal like sending him to the wolves will. It is also wrong b/c though MAYBE he isn't all there, but he clearly has enough control left to function, and thus enough control to be responsible, fully, for what he did, not get passed off on insanity.

It is true that stopping all atrocities won't stop everyone from hating America or organizing bomb attacks, but it'll certainly give them one less reason.

And to stop atrocities, you need to send out strong signals. Feeding this guy to the wolves tells the other soldiers that even insanity is no defense for killing civilians. If your sanity is going, shoot yourself if you have to, but don't touch civilians.

Not a bad message to send out, isn't it?

August

03-14-12, 07:43 AM

That's assuming that the US will indeed execute him.

That's assuming he's guilty. AFAIK he has not even been arraigned let alone convicted and you already have moved on to the punishment phase.

And to stop atrocities, you need to send out strong signals. Feeding this guy to the wolves tells the other soldiers that even insanity is no defense for killing civilians. If your sanity is going, shoot yourself if you have to, but don't touch civilians.

Not a bad message to send out, isn't it?

Well yeah it is a bad message.

Basically you're saying that our soldiers should shoot themselves if they think they might be going insane. That's of course assuming that they are still sane enough to self diagnose their own mental problems. I hope you can see where that could be a bit sticky...

The other message you're sending to our soldiers is: "If you're contemplating mass murder don't surrender peacefully afterwards. Go down in a blaze of gunfire while taking out as many as possible."

Either way I seriously doubt a person who'd gun down 16 innocent people is going to care all that much about the consequences of his actions. Why? Because he is insane.

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

03-14-12, 08:51 AM

That's assuming he's guilty. AFAIK he has not even been arraigned let alone convicted and you already have moved on to the punishment phase.

He's not convicted yet, but I don't see many plausible scenarios for his innocence. The "best" that can happen is that he gets off on some insanity charge, at the price of what relations America has with the relatively neutral part of Afghan society.

Basically you're saying that our soldiers should shoot themselves if they think they might be going insane. That's of course assuming that they are still sane enough to self diagnose their own mental problems. I hope you can see where that could be a bit sticky...

The other message you're sending to our soldiers is: "If you're contemplating mass murder don't surrender peacefully afterwards. Go down in a blaze of gunfire while taking out as many as possible."

Either way I seriously doubt a person who'd gun down 16 innocent people is going to care all that much about the consequences of his actions. Why? Because he is insane.

I did not say they should shoot themselves. I did say it is preferable that soldiers are indoctrinated such that, even when they go insane, what's been input into him will make him deviate from the course of killing a bunch of civvies. If that means he shoots himself, well obviously that's not great but it is better than him shooting a bunch of civvies.

And of course you can't appeal to complicated concepts such as "honor" or "ethics" at times like this. So what can you appeal to? His fear. Fear is primal and powerful. Fear of a very painful end. Fearful of abandonment by his country and his fellow soldiers.

Such fear certainly is not going to happen if you send messages out that even if he shoots up a bunch of foreign civvies, his country will think him one of their own and shield him from the society. then rule he's insane and let him go off light.

Even when you are breaking down, there are some things you just don't do.

TLAM Strike

03-18-12, 07:01 PM

Afghan officials now claim 20 American troops were involved in the incident.

http://publicintelligence.net/nearly-20-soldiers-may-have-been-involved-in-afghan-massacre/

JU_88

03-19-12, 04:52 AM

Well its pretty accademic what happened here and why, what about the big picture?
This is just one of many sorry events that could have been avoided if we werent occupying these countries in the first place.
I'm with Ron Paul, get the troops out of there, use the money help pay off defecits.

Terrorism willl always exist, civilians in the west will just have grow a pair of balls and learn to take their chances as they go about their daily lives, imagine if we 'decalared war' on threats that are statisticly far more likely to kill us,
We'd have a war on Cancer, a war on bad drivers, and a war on violent felons at the very least.
The war on terror is a farce, it has nothing to do with counter-terrorism, its about special intrests and the whole world knows it. Even many of the soldiers fighting it are starting realise - and they every reason to be fed up.

This attitude of 'screw what the world thinks - we can do what we want' (like a spoiled teenager) well, thats gonna come home to roost when
we are fresh out of friends and can no longer print our way of our debt bubble.

Skybird

03-19-12, 05:25 AM

Im with Ron Paul, get the troops out of there, use the money help pay off defecits,
Terrorism willl always exist, civilians will just have grow a pair of balls and learn to take their chances as they go about their daily lives, imagine if we 'decalared war' on threats that are statisticly far more likely to kill us,
We'd have a war on Cancer, a war on bad drivers, and a war on violent felons at the very least.

"4000 killed in...................... "What kind of
traffic on Ger- ..................... war do they
man streets!"...................... have over there?"
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/kriegts/6254630/2.jpg?format=format10 (http://www.tagesspiegel.de/mediacenter/karikatur/bildergalerie-karikaturen-von-stuttmann-und-schwalme/3994.html?p3994=24#image)
source: Der Tagesspiegel

Rockstar

03-19-12, 03:40 PM

Well its pretty accademic what happened here and why, what about the big picture?
This is just one of many sorry events that could have been avoided if we werent occupying these countries in the first place.
I'm with Ron Paul, get the troops out of there, use the money help pay off defecits.

Terrorism willl always exist, civilians in the west will just have grow a pair of balls and learn to take their chances as they go about their daily lives, imagine if we 'decalared war' on threats that are statisticly far more likely to kill us,
We'd have a war on Cancer, a war on bad drivers, and a war on violent felons at the very least ...

We already declare war on just about everything. We have the war on drugs, war on hunger, the 'other' war on drugs, a war on greed, war on poverty, the war on hip hop, war on global warming, war on cancer, whale wars, war on crime, greenwar and the war on pollution, a war on religion, price wars, Cod wars, war on gangs, war on globalization, war on guns, a war to end all wars, war on fishing, a war on strip clubs, war on heroin, war on zombies. You name the problem we're gonna wage war on it!

eddie

03-26-12, 03:59 PM

As tragic as this whole affair has been, looks like revenge is at work.
Ofr course when 70 NATO troops are killed this way in 42 seperate attacks, Karzai says nothing. When the Taliban catch up with him in the future, I will say nothing when they put a bullet in his brain.

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10863870-three-nato-troops-killed-by-alleged-afghan-security-forces

August

03-26-12, 04:59 PM