View Full Version : What greene energy can't do.
If you are reading this right now, it was brought to you by oil or oil refined products, maybe the electric that powers your computer and before you say a word I have acouple of words for you insulators, power lines and cords , the plastic's in the chair that you are sitting in, the plastic that's in your computer, and in the carpet at your feet, the clothes on your back, and in that nice white food box that you have in the kitchen, lots of oil involved there, and before you demonize oil companies you better look around and see how good you have it. If you hate big oil so much, you should jump out of your clothes and get out of that house, that has so much oil in it, that it will make your head spin, and go huddle under a tree. Oil, it isn't all about filling your tank. and how much oil is in all that birthcontrol stuff, no oil no birthcontrol crisis. And since I use to work on heavy equipment there is nothing yet made to replace the diesel engine and all it's applications.
mookiemookie
03-07-12, 09:31 PM
Keep sucking that oil pipe.
Keep sucking that oil pipe.
you wouldn't have pipe without oil, all that plastic pipe, and what is plastic made from, you can say it, oil see it wasn't that hard. Another thing that greene energy can't do is, stop killing, birds, hawks, owls, eagles, and bats, in the blades of those windmills, I guess the greeney's didn't see that come-ing and got their panties all into a bunch over this. Wouldn't have panties with out oil.
My computer runs off a 1.5kw solar power grid, panels mounted on the roof!:yep:
Sailor Steve
03-07-12, 10:39 PM
Yubba, are you really that disconnected from your own self? As the old adage goes, it's not what you say but how you say it. I agree with much of what you believe, but you say it in such a manner that you make all conservatives look bad.
You need to learn how to communicate rather than just pontificate. If pontificating is all you know, you might get your point across better if you at least learned how to write the language properly.
As it is, you're an embarrassment to your own side.
So, when the oil is gone, what happens to that disposable society lifestyle you describe?
Stealhead
03-07-12, 11:49 PM
Henry Ford had most the interior of a car made out of hemp in late 30s you can make things like plastic without oil.Once we relied on whale oil for many things we over came the need for it though.
Tribesman
03-08-12, 02:54 AM
As it is, you're an embarrassment to your own side.
Depends how you look at it.
Look at it for the positive aspects it shows for the way out off planet far fringe of the raving loonies......in comparison he makes Alex Jones look like a sane and rational person with good points and a coherent arguement.:yeah:
Yes you are right plastics should probably be made from oil but this does not mean that electricity/propulsion should be made by it...
Reducing oil and energy consumption does not mean going back to the middle ages...(Though it might indeed reduce our standard of living somewhat(new iphone every 5 years instead of 3)).
kraznyi_oktjabr
03-08-12, 05:50 AM
@yubba: That greener energy thing is not about completely disbanding use of oil - only about stopping burning of it. If there is viable alternative available then burning oil is waste of resources. That is primary reason why I support research on greener energy sources. Also greener energy is not only about windmills (which are nice but not suitable for replacement of oil) but I'm sure you already knew this.
Btw that "greener" sounds terrible I personally prefer "renewable".
EDIT: Also yubba I agree with some of your opininons and disagree with most. However could you please consider HOW you present you opinion? You often sound like a person who escaped from loony bin - that is not good for credibility.
you wouldn't have pipe without oil
Metal pipelines no longer exist then? :hmmm:
Rockstar
03-08-12, 07:38 AM
Well, I can understand some of what he's saying here. Just complaints and finger pointing but nobody it seems is willing to give up or do what it takes and use the alternative energy sources available right now. It always someone else needs to do it. Until then I'll just complain just like Yubba and others.
Reece I suspect is the only one supplementing energy from the city grid.
So instead of going out and buying a new computer, HDTV, iPad, or subsim game. Try brushing up on solar, wind energy sources and how to to tie it in to your household grid via inverter. You don't have to wait for government or need a licensed contractor to do it for you. The equipment is out there and available to anyone.
Tribesman
03-08-12, 09:19 AM
Metal pipelines no longer exist then?
But Oberon metal is a lie, so are wooden chairs and wool carpets, there is only oil especially in your clothes if you are in a bad 1970s fashion warp or do your clothes shopping at walmart.
But don't forget birth control, maybe while someone is huddling under a tree they can take the plant juice and make some by inventing a revolutionary new process:03:
but hey lets.......
And since I use to work on heavy equipment
Most heavy equipment comes with the stipulation that you cannot operate it with impaired faculties, is that why you no longer operate it?
there is nothing yet made to replace the diesel engine and all it's applications.
Yes dear, go to the quack and get a new prescription for dried frog pills.
A diesel engine is just an engine that is powered by diesel yubba.
You often sound like a person who escaped from loony bin - that is not good for credibility.
krasnyi, what do you mean "often"?
Rockstar, don't forget geo-thermal and hydro. OK hydro isn't much good for most domestic but geo is very affordable now.
Yabba daba dooo
All green
http://hughgarry.typepad.com/.a/6a00e5538a464f8833014e602411a3970c-800wi
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01728/flintstone-car_1728691a.gif
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01728/dinocrane_1728734a.gif
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01728/alobster_1728757a.gif
Metal pipelines no longer exist then? :hmmm: How do get metal ore out of the ground without oil I guess you like running a shovel. Greene energy can't seem to make it on its own without tons of taxpayer money, I'm not against greene but let's be smart about this. You destroy the oil industry alot of other stuff goes with it.
the_tyrant
03-08-12, 09:36 AM
I'm wondering what will happen to the middle east after oil?
But Oberon metal is a lie, so are wooden chairs and wool carpets, there is only oil especially in your clothes if you are in a bad 1970s fashion warp or do your clothes shopping at walmart.
But don't forget birth control, maybe while someone is huddling under a tree they can take the plant juice and make some by inventing a revolutionary new process:03:
but hey lets.......
Most heavy equipment comes with the stipulation that you cannot operate it with impaired faculties, is that why you no longer operate it?
Yes dear, go to the quack and get a new prescription for dried frog pills.
A diesel engine is just an engine that is powered by diesel yubba.
krasnyi, what do you mean "often"?
Rockstar, don't forget geo-thermal and hydro. OK hydro isn't much good for most domestic but geo is very affordable now.
Let me see if I can answer some of these, retired from working on heavy equipment, didn't you hear alot of meds are made from oil, and yes I'm as crazy as they come don't you ever forget it, and where does diesel fuel come from, the tooth fairey.??????????????
I'm wondering what will happen to the middle east after oil?
Sucks living in a desert.
I'm wondering what will happen to the middle east after oil?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/15/article-1366320-0B30403900000578-614_634x286.jpg
Tribesman
03-08-12, 09:57 AM
Let me see if I can answer some of these
Yes lets.
retired from working on heavy equipment
Errrrr...retired?????? you said you lost your job and could only get work now cleaning restrooms.
didn't you hear alot of meds are made from oil
Didn't you hear there are a lot of oils.
I wonder what they made medicine out of before the petro-chem industry or what ingredients they use nowadays instead of the industrial by products from the refineries
where does diesel fuel come from, the tooth fairey.??????????????
What a plonker.:woot:
What is an engine yubba?
sorry for the hard question but you seem to have missed the point by a mile.:rotfl2:
So the answer is clearly no, you cannot answer any of it.
How do get metal ore out of the ground without oil I guess you like running a shovel. Greene energy can't seem to make it on its own without tons of taxpayer money, I'm not against greene but let's be smart about this. You destroy the oil industry alot of other stuff goes with it.
http://www.smokstak.com/gallery/files/3/2/4/6/Steamshovel70tonBucyrusNPRR.jpg
http://www.miningartifacts.org/Bangor_Mine__Lake_Embarrass_-_Pickands_Mather_Co_.jpg
We managed perfectly fine before petrol, and we'll manage after. It's going to disappear one day, and if we keep sucking at it with this rate then it'll be a lot sooner than we think.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as dependent on oil as the next guy, but I don't like it because nothing lasts forever.
TLAM Strike
03-08-12, 10:03 AM
I'm wondering what will happen to the middle east after oil?
No doubt the loss of such a civilizing force will cause it to descend in to barbaric primitive savagery.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/15/article-1366320-0B30403900000578-614_634x286.jpg
"So what you doing dude?"
"Watching the war, having a jihad."
"True, True."
Greene energy? Hmmm. He'd been dead for over 200 years. I figure he's probably done producing methane by now...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Greene_portrait.jpg/220px-Greene_portrait.jpg
:haha:
Greene energy? Hmmm. He'd been dead for over 200 years. I figure he's probably done producing methane by now...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Greene_portrait.jpg/220px-Greene_portrait.jpg
:haha:
:har::har::har::har: I was going to make a comment on 'Greene' earlier but I can't beat that. Priceless. :yeah:
Stealhead
03-08-12, 10:45 AM
I figured Yubba was trying to sound British and spell it differently like tyre and grey.
Herr-Berbunch
03-08-12, 11:02 AM
How do get metal ore out of the ground without oil...
Well some metals, chiefly gold and silver were around in the Stone Age. Then they moved on to the Bronze Age (some skipped this bit!) about 5500 years ago and amassed some more metals. Then came the Iron Age about 3300 years ago. Some other metals have followed since then.
Oil on the other hand is first mentioned in ye olde English around 900 years ago, but does actually extend back to the Bronze Age with the Mycenaean Greeks - but this oil is not the same stuff to which you refer, but instead things like body and plant fats.
Tar pitch was known to seep from the ground near the river Euphrates 4000 years ago, and this was used to waterproof things but it's not until 347 AD that a well was drilled in China using bamboo poles. Later references mention hand-dug wells at Baku in modern day Azerbaijan around 500 years ago. In 1815 oil was discovered as an unwanted by-product in Pennsylvania, and the first 'modern' well was drilled near Baku in 1848.
So to answer your question - with hand tools would seem adequate.
Reference: www.astm.org
nikimcbee
03-11-12, 09:25 AM
:har::har::har::har: I was going to make a comment on 'Greene' earlier but I can't beat that. Priceless. :yeah:
Beat me to it. Well played good sir.
@August::salute::har::yeah:
I'm wondering what will happen to the middle east after oil?
No idea, but in the mean time there building super cassino's for the mega rich as there oil has peaked. So it's the second boom times for them, a question comes to mind. What will they do with all that money? :hmmm:
BossMark
03-11-12, 01:33 PM
What will they do with all that money? :hmmm:
Ask them to PM me and I will gladly give them my bank account details :D
Ask them to PM me and I will gladly give them my bank account details :D
All that silk toilet paper you could buy. ;)
Mighty smooth. :har:
BossMark
03-11-12, 01:41 PM
All that silk toilet paper you could buy. ;)
Mighty smooth. :har:
I was thinking more on the lines of all them tins of John Smiths I could buy :haha:
nikimcbee
03-11-12, 05:49 PM
Ask them to PM me and I will gladly give them my bank account details :D
Wait, so if we PM you, you'll give us your bank account info?:hmmm:
em2nought
03-11-12, 09:26 PM
Would anyone like about twenty barrels of glycerine byproduct? Green energy has a ways to go before it's viable in my experience. :har:
Blood_splat
03-11-12, 10:24 PM
Saw this on Reddit. Talks about Thorium, an alternative nuclear fuel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw&feature=player_embedded
TLAM Strike
03-11-12, 10:54 PM
Saw this on Reddit. Talks about Thorium, an alternative nuclear fuel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw&feature=player_embedded
Since it uses the N Word the uneducated masses will see this:
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9978/chernobylradiationmeltd.jpg
and not this:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8963/228626501165457eeb84.jpg
"Ironic, isn't it? Way back in the 20th century, the H-Bomb was the ultimate weapon -- their doomsday machine.
We used something like it to destroy another doomsday machine.
Probably the first time such a weapon has ever been used for constructive purposes."
-James T. Kirk
CaptainMattJ.
03-12-12, 01:09 AM
If all homes came standard with solar panels that WERENT tacky and expensive as all get up, then why not have them?
Once the technology gets cheaper, theres really no reason not to use it. With a combination of solar powered homes producing their OWN electricity and putting back into the grid, hydroelectric, and a bit of nuclear, well have all the power well need. Eventually, solar panels or whatever theyll have in the future to substitute for it should become standard on every new home built.
oil is not our friend. Its an unhealthy addiction thats going to send our species into the toilet. Eventually it will run out. Not too far in the future we may be finding ourselves paying outrageously high gas prices, outrageously high electric bills, and a spike in pretty much the price of EVERYTHING, including food. Invest now, reap the rewards later.
Eventually it will run out. Not too far in the future we may be finding ourselves paying outrageously high gas prices, outrageously high electric bills, and a spike in pretty much the price of EVERYTHING, including food. Invest now, reap the rewards later.
Folks have been saying that almost my entire life. We were supposed to have run out of oil already but surprise, surprise they keep finding more. That's the problem with doomsday predictions. Get everyone hyped up for a non event and they aren't likely to believe you in the future. We're seeing the same thing happening with the climate change debate in general.
mookiemookie
03-12-12, 09:28 AM
Folks have been saying that almost my entire life. We were supposed to have run out of oil already but surprise, surprise they keep finding more.
It's a finite resource.
Hottentot
03-12-12, 09:41 AM
Folks have been saying that almost my entire life. We were supposed to have run out of oil already but surprise, surprise they keep finding more.
It's a finite resource.
I think you are both right in a way. On one hand Mookie is right by saying it's a finite resource. On the other, I have noticed the same as August with the doomsday heralds in general. I mean, for how many times have I already seen a newspaper scream: "if the solution is not found in a week, the whole EU will collapse ZOMG!!!"
Not only do they keep finding more, but also we invest in technologies that spend less. Is that a permanent solution? In the end probably not, because oil is a finite resource. On the other hand, "finite" in this case is highly relative.
mookiemookie
03-12-12, 10:12 AM
With the uncertainty of how long this finite resource will last, it's better to plan for its inevitable disappearance now, rather than waiting for it to run out and not having a viable back up.
I think you are both right in a way. On one hand Mookie is right by saying it's a finite resource. On the other, I have noticed the same as August with the doomsday heralds in general. I mean, for how many times have I already seen a newspaper scream: "if the solution is not found in a week, the whole EU will collapse ZOMG!!!"
Not only do they keep finding more, but also we invest in technologies that spend less. Is that a permanent solution? In the end probably not, because oil is a finite resource. On the other hand, "finite" in this case is highly relative.
Exactly. :salute:
Betonov
03-12-12, 11:23 AM
If only we could find a way to to take the CO2 from the atmosphere and water and powered by sunlight to create the molecules that compose oil and it's products, thus making oil a renewable resource. Sparing us the trouble of adapting the infrastructure from oil based to electricity/hydrogen based.
Actually it already is, but the capacity is too low (for now)
nikimcbee
03-12-12, 11:37 AM
Cold fusion?:haha:
I wish we'd develope natural gas more. North America has tons of it.
kraznyi_oktjabr
03-12-12, 11:46 AM
If only we could find a way to to take the CO2 from the atmosphere and water and powered by sunlight to create the molecules that compose oil and it's products, thus making oil a renewable resource. Sparing us the trouble of adapting the infrastructure from oil based to electricity/hydrogen based.
Actually it already is, but the capacity is too low (for now)Do you mean algae based fuel developed by EADS?
Betonov
03-12-12, 12:47 PM
Do you mean algae based fuel developed by EADS?
That's one option. But those algae need to be fed, bringing us to another dillema of food vs fuel like with biodiesel.
Nippelspanner
03-12-12, 01:02 PM
I will try to keep out of this, but let me just say this:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
TRUE! :nope:
That's one option. But those algae need to be fed, bringing us to another dillema of food vs fuel like with biodiesel.
I thought the algae were supposed to eat carbon?
kraznyi_oktjabr
03-12-12, 02:27 PM
I thought the algae were supposed to eat carbon?They use solar energy to synthesize carbon dioxide (CO2) and dihydrogen monoxide (H2O, commonly called water) into organic material usually but not always sugars.
Ofcourse they also need phosphate, nitrogen, sulfur and other chemicals as building blocks but they get their energy from photosynthesis. What we humans want to do is to process algae to hydrocarbons (molecules containing carbon and hydrogen) which can be burned to run our little toys like cars, aircrafts, ships and power plants.
I will try to keep out of this, but let me just say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Einstein
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
TRUE! :nope:
Wow, I didn't know Einstein is an active of SubSim... :D
Nippelspanner
03-12-12, 03:30 PM
Well, suprise! :D
They use solar energy to synthesize carbon dioxide (CO2) and dihydrogen monoxide (H2O, commonly called water) into organic material usually but not always sugars.
Ofcourse they also need phosphate, nitrogen, sulfur and other chemicals as building blocks but they get their energy from photosynthesis. What we humans want to do is to process algae to hydrocarbons (molecules containing carbon and hydrogen) which can be burned to run our little toys like cars, aircrafts, ships and power plants.
So it's not like biodiesel then where we're having to make the choice between using crops for food or fuel?
Tribesman
03-13-12, 03:05 AM
So it's not like biodiesel then where we're having to make the choice between using crops for food or fuel?
The only real choice most farmers make is which product will pay most for the least amount of input.
If the money is in cotton then people will choose to grow cotton as a crop instead of food, if the money is in corn for diesel they will grow corn for diesel, if the money is in corn for fructose syrup then the people will grow obese.
kraznyi_oktjabr
03-13-12, 03:35 AM
So it's not like biodiesel then where we're having to make the choice between using crops for food or fuel?Yes. What you (in theory) need is a large pool of water for growing algae therefore you can put it into middle of desert if necessary. What will be biggest problem in growing algae is need for sunlight which means that pools must be quite large in surface area you can not just dig deeper hole for it. Another trouble maker is availability of water. Propably most practical solution would be to locate growing pools in seaside location so that seawater can be directed to pools as necessary.
I don't know what exact needs for growing are they vary highly because there are a lot different algae species with different needs. If we consider only sunlight and water need and in my opinion important thing - putting it somewhere else but Middle East - then two of my favourite locations would be coastal areas of California, USA and southern coastal areas of Spain.
All above is in theory. How it will work have to be seen but I really hope that this will work and we will get it relatively soon.
EDIT: EADS has already flown algae fuel powered helicopter so the questions is no longer "can you do it" but "can you do it at commercially viable cost"? I hope that EADS and its competitors in this field can make industrial scale production feasible.
EDIT#2: I don't know for sure but I'm worried that biggest problem is not in efficiency of growing algae but in efficiency of processing it to fuel usable in cars, aircrafts and so on.
Saw this on Reddit. Talks about Thorium, an alternative nuclear fuel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw&feature=player_embedded
This Thorium nuclear idea sounds promising, but I have to ask why there have not been any attempts to put one into operation. Are there problems that make it impractical?
TLAM Strike
03-14-12, 08:17 AM
This Thorium nuclear idea sounds promising, but I have to ask why there have not been any attempts to put one into operation. Are there problems that make it impractical?
From what I understand the first one is more expensive to start than a normal plant. However it gets cheaper once that first one comes online because it can help process basic thorium in to thorium-232 which necessary for it use as fuel.
Sammi79
03-14-12, 11:28 AM
This Thorium nuclear idea sounds promising, but I have to ask why there have not been any attempts to put one into operation. Are there problems that make it impractical?
The proof of concept was done in the late 50's early 60's and was successful. The primary problem of impracticality is that it is impossible to breed plutonium from the thorium fuel cycle - which basically consists of neutron activation of inert thorium 232 to transmute it into uranium 233 which is the fissile energy producing fuel in this cycle. Plutonium is the easiest fissile element with which one can produce a bomb although more unstable than uranium because of the varying qualities of its isotopes though both plutonium and uranium require a similar mass to become critical. Uranium 233 can be used for a bomb, but it requires a much larger mass (or much greater pressure) to become critical, and is a powerful gamma (ultra high energy photon) emitter meaning it is extremely dangerous to handle in any amount as opposed to plutonium or uranium in sub-critical masses which can both be relatively safely held in your hand for short periods of time (certainly not advisable but less radiation than a chest CT scan for example) and are relatively easy to 'hide' as opposed to the very bright 'glow' from uranium 233 which is very easy to detect even in trace amounts. Also in the traditional uranium cycle only about 17% of the uranium undergoes fission, whereas in the thorium cycle roughly 90% of the bred uranium 233 is burned so it is much more efficient. Because thorium itself is not radioactive, does not decay over time there is a lot more of it on the planet than uranium and is therefore cheaper, easier and safer to mine and purify.
So in my opinion it seems fairly obvious the technology was shelved as interesting but useless for proliferation - which was a big issue during the cold war. Lots of anti nuclear folks do argue that if the tech was any good we'd already be doing it but I think political and economic forces over the last half century strongly suggest otherwise. There is the issue of requiring a large amount of energy for the neutron flux to breed enough uranium 233 before the reaction becomes self sustaining but this would be recouped quickly once operating at optimal output.
There are also some very interesting new ideas for next generation nuclear power plants like liquid cores (already 'melted' so no meltdown possible - again not suitable for proliferation) which could be made to work with both uranium and/or thorium solutions as well as impressive negative feedback safety systems like freeze plugs (if the core melts, the freeze plug melts and the liquid is drained into several separate reservoirs thus dividing the mass and dropping it below criticality etc.
I like the liquid core idea, because if the reaction starts increasing too fast, the temperature increase would generate gaseous bubbles or voids within the core immediately slowing the reactions down, another negative feedback concept. Combine that with a freeze plug and use thorium bred uranium 233 as a primer then you have a system that would shut itself down without human interaction in the case of a runaway chain reaction, which is impossible to make bombs from, and could thereafter burn any fissile element (particularly previously generated nuclear waste) that can be made into solution and pumped into the core as fuel. There are however very serious engineering problems yet to be solved for radioactive liquids and methodology and is probably a long time away yet. A lot closer than fusion though!
I'm sure some folks will disagree with my enthusiasm for nuclear power generation and I well know and understand all the arguments for and against of which there are many on both sides. My enthusiasm is only for the science however, and the pursuit of knowledge. In some places on this earth (not all by any means) I think nuclear power generation is the most sensible option. Regardless if the subject either fascinates or disgusts you, you may find this link interesting :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
Regards, Sam.
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