Something i've always wondered about

[DelphiUniverse]

What is the better anti aircraft gun, the flak 42 or the quad barrel gun? The flak 42 is way more expensive, but i'm not really sure which one is better. The quad gun have over 12,000 metres range while the flak gun have some 7,000 metres range?

[Sailor Steve]

No light flak gun is useful at more than 1000 meters. Without a heavy shell with a good proximity fuse it's just another machine gun, and hitting a moving target is pretty much impossible unless it's close and heading right for you.

For the most part u-boat flak guns were an enticement to stay on the surface and get killed. Deep water is your friend.

[DelphiUniverse]

So do you think the quad-gun is the better solution if we assume we can't dive atm and have to attack an aircraft.

[Mittelwaechter]

If you plan to/want to/have to stay surfaced:

get you two quad-guns and keep the attackers at 90° or 270° incoming.
Stay slow and let your well trained crew do their job. At least one flak trained bosun per gun.

Don't let the aircraft come from 180° or 360° - they are quite good in dropping their stuff in the right direction, but they often drop short or long.

[Captain_AJ]

If you plan to/want to/have to stay surfaced:

get you two quad-guns and keep the attackers at 90° or 270° incoming.
Stay slow and let your well trained crew do their job. At least one flak trained bosun per gun.

Don't let the aircraft come from 180° or 360° - they are quite good in dropping their stuff in the right direction, but they often drop short or long.

And use trevallys scripts for surface attacks !! :yeah:

[misha1967]

What is the better anti aircraft gun, the flak 42 or the quad barrel gun? The flak 42 is way more expensive, but i'm not really sure which one is better. The quad gun have over 12,000 metres range while the flak gun have some 7,000 metres range?

The better choice is no FlaK at all. Because, as Steve said, it only makes you think that you stand a chance on the surface, an environment that U-boats were never meant to be in. It's a sense of false security.

[Harald_Lange]

And use trevallys scripts for surface attacks !! :yeah:


Please can you 'link me happy'? :salute:

[Commander Mysenses]

No light flak gun is useful at more than 1000 meters. That's interesting 'cos most of the 2cm FLAK 30/38 ammo had a 2 to 5 second fuse, so they were fragging at 1000 to 2000m, closer than that, they were just rather fast bees! (albeit, heavy 2cm ones that would whizz straight thru' yer fuselage)

Without a heavy shell with a good proximity fuse it's just another machine gun, and hitting a moving target is pretty much impossible unless it's close and heading right for you.No proximity on 2cm rounds, just a burn thru' tracer.

The axis were never able to develop a working proximity fuse for any FLAK, they just used timed fuses set to a specific range/altitude (based on flight time). Alled forces did have proximity fuses in the later years of the war.

[Hinrich Schwab]

What is the better anti aircraft gun, the flak 42 or the quad barrel gun?

Neither. The "Alarmtauchen" model is the best anti-air gun.:D:yeah:

[DelphiUniverse]

Neither. The "Alarmtauchen" model is the best anti-air gun.:D:yeah:

So do you think the quad-gun is the better solution if we assume we can't dive atm and have to attack an aircraft.

If surprise attacked, you have to shoot so the question still stands. :k_confused:
The same holds true if you have a flooding, you can't dive. If I can't dive and I follow the advice "not to carry an anti aircraft gun" would mean I am dead right now, which I hardly need to tell is a bad idea, so I will continue to carry my anti aircraft gun. :03:

[Sailor Steve]

That's interesting 'cos most of the 2cm FLAK 30/38 ammo had a 2 to 5 second fuse, so they were fragging at 1000 to 2000m, closer than that, they were just rather fast bees! (albeit, heavy 2cm ones that would whizz straight thru' yer fuselage)
Timed fuse on a 20mm round? Everything I've read says that they had a nose or base impact fuse.[/QUOTE]

[Commander Mysenses]

Timed fuse on a 20mm round? Everything I've read says that they had a nose or base impact fuse.
Be interested in your reading, have you got a link?

My bad, Indeed they had a nose impact firing pin fuse with a tracer self destruct.

Here's what I know, the 20mm FLAK 30/38 (designated C/30 by Kreigsmarine) fired The 20×138mmB HET "Long Solothurn" cartridge.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm2.jpg
(The one in the middle, brass is propellant, yellow is explosive charge, aluminium tip is nose fuse). The tracer in the nose fuse burns through in 2 - 5 seconds (depending on fuse type is screwed in) and ignites the HE-T charge.
So, the round explodes on impact, then at 1000 -2000m (depending on fuse) it frags when the tracer burns through. And the effective range of the weapon is 2200m. If you are attacked by a plane doing 200 knots, he will only be in range of you weapon for 20 seconds of his strafing run.

Links
http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?5737-20x138B-cartridges-Germany-WW2
http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2197
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/an_introduction_to_collecting_20.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling

[Hinrich Schwab]

If surprise attacked, you have to shoot so the question still stands. :k_confused:
The same holds true if you have a flooding, you can't dive. If I can't dive and I follow the advice "not to carry an anti aircraft gun" would mean I am dead right now, which I hardly need to tell is a bad idea, so I will continue to carry my anti aircraft gun. :03:

The type of gun really doesn't matter much. None were really effective to the degree of reliance. If we must entertain the situations where surprise occurs, one of two things will happen; your boat will eat whatever payload he dropped or your firing of the flack gun will annoy him enough to hopefully buy the time needed to crash dive. I have never found any flak gun effective at all. I found it better to maneuver to throw off his attack run as best as I could while preparing to dive. If the surprise attack misses, diving is still required because your position is marked and reported. More trouble will follow. The few times I have been legitimately jumped by the mosquitoes, I have turned towards them and ordered Ahead Flank. The payload almost always falls behind me. I usually dive while he is trying to turn for another run. I do not bother with the flak gun at all because if he hits me while I am flatfooted, it doesn't matter. If I kill him after he drops his ordinance, it is a waste of ammo because he is empty.

Regarding your scenario involving a damaged and flooded boat, Getting caught by a plane is potentially fatal. Eventually, you must dive to avoid current or future harassment. Duking it out with one plane simply draws your attention away from the other planes incoming with more bombs. Historically, this tag-team action occurred because the Tommies learned that there was only the one flak gun on the whole boat.

My first, second and last line of defense against air attacks is to dive. Manning that flak gun invites trouble.

[DelphiUniverse]

The type of gun really doesn't matter much. None were really effective to the degree of reliance. If we must entertain the situations where surprise occurs, one of two things will happen; your boat will eat whatever payload he dropped or your firing of the flack gun will annoy him enough to hopefully buy the time needed to crash dive. I have never found any flak gun effective at all. I found it better to maneuver to throw off his attack run as best as I could while preparing to dive. If the surprise attack misses, diving is still required because your position is marked and reported. More trouble will follow. The few times I have been legitimately jumped by the mosquitoes, I have turned towards them and ordered Ahead Flank. The payload almost always falls behind me. I usually dive while he is trying to turn for another run. I do not bother with the flak gun at all because if he hits me while I am flatfooted, it doesn't matter. If I kill him after he drops his ordinance, it is a waste of ammo because he is empty.

Regarding your scenario involving a damaged and flooded boat, Getting caught by a plane is potentially fatal. Eventually, you must dive to avoid current or future harassment. Duking it out with one plane simply draws your attention away from the other planes incoming with more bombs. Historically, this tag-team action occurred because the Tommies learned that there was only the one flak gun on the whole boat.

My first, second and last line of defense against air attacks is to dive. Manning that flak gun invites trouble.

Diving gives you a range of about 30-60 km range before battery is halfway flattened, depending on speed settings, it can be lower if you are running full power. Airplane will have taken note of your position and it can draw a circle of your position, patrol the entire circle within 40 km and it will still catch you again, and this time it will catch you when you have a flat battery, with sink mines.

There are many situations where you need to have a last sort of defense against airplanes. I am not against diving, if I am on a very very long trip, I usually dive if I encounter airplanes to save the hull of my ship, I don't want to travel far with a damaged hull, even a few percentage damage so I usually dive.

But again, the airforce team will plot a circle using a protractor and it will very quickly scan the entire circle how far you can reach in a dived position, so diving will not help you there.

And if you have a serious flooding, you can't risk diving or if parts of the uboat is damaged so that diving is technically impossible, you need to have a last sort of defense against air assaults.

Every airforce expect the daily patrol aircraft to return to base at a given time, if you manage to shoot one down, the airforce will probably wait 10 more minutes before they finally declare it a lost airplane, these 10 minutes will give you a surface boost running on diesel for 10 minutes rather than allowing the airplane to go straight home right on time and report you, you will not have 10 extra minutes.

If you shoot down the airplane, you can surface the ship and travel at maximum diesel-speed away before the next patrol aircraft arrives. If you don't shoot it down, you have to dive and then travel at a slow speed and when you finally surface again the next airplane is ready for you.

1: If you don't attack the airplane, you dive, the airplane return to base, reports you, it will then come straight back again in 15 minutes.
2: If you shoot it down, the airforce expects the patrol aircraft to arrive when its fuel is almost empty, perhaps in another 15-30 minutes, you would have alot of time to run full power on diesel. AND the airbase would have no clue where the airplane was shot down, giving you stealth advantage.

It may be that in real life they had problems shooting down airplanes, but in the game it works, I shot down 2 airplanes flying above me north of scapa flow and my hull had 99% when the battle was over and the planes were lost using the flak38, I have now switched to the quad barrel which I think is much better because of rate of fire is more important with these fast flying aircrafts.

[Captain_AJ]

for me since i love my boat ..............dive dive dive !!!

[Hinrich Schwab]

Diving gives you a range of about 30-60 km range before battery is halfway flattened, depending on speed settings, it can be lower if you are running full power. Airplane will have taken note of your position and it can draw a circle of your position, patrol the entire circle within 40 km and it will still catch you again, and this time it will catch you when you have a flat battery, with sink mines.

Never seen it happen in-game. Worst I saw was in 4's U-boat missions where the Swordfish dropped a flare and pulled in a Tribal and an Admiralty V&W. I was safe at only 5.5km. I was also near Freemantle, too. Planes kept spotting me, but I kept ruining their runs by turning into them during the strafe. Bombs fell long.

There are many situations where you need to have a last sort of defense against airplanes. I am not against diving, if I am on a very very long trip, I usually dive if I encounter airplanes to save the hull of my ship, I don't want to travel far with a damaged hull, even a few percentage damage so I usually dive.

But again, the airforce team will plot a circle using a protractor and it will very quickly scan the entire circle how far you can reach in a dived position, so diving will not help you there.

And if you have a serious flooding, you can't risk diving or if parts of the uboat is damaged so that diving is technically impossible, you need to have a last sort of defense against air assaults.Keyword here is if. I avoid situations where this can happen. While I have taken damage to my boat, just like everyone else, I go out of my way to avoid aerial recon issues. I use and abuse the Air coverage map (came with SH3) so I know when and where to institute the dive-during-day routine. Taking more than 25% hull damage will make me return to port for repairs, regardless of mission status, at a heightened state of readiness. I prefer tactics and strategy that counter air power as best as I can without the need to rely on my flak gun, which I find inadequate and marginally useful, regardless of type. To me, the flak gun makes me do the one thing I should not do in a dangerous situation; remain surfaced.

Every airforce expect the daily patrol aircraft to return to base at a given time, if you manage to shoot one down, the airforce will probably wait 10 more minutes before they finally declare it a lost airplane, these 10 minutes will give you a surface boost running on diesel for 10 minutes rather than allowing the airplane to go straight home right on time and report you, you will not have 10 extra minutes.

If you shoot down the airplane, you can surface the ship and travel at maximum diesel-speed away before the next patrol aircraft arrives. If you don't shoot it down, you have to dive and then travel at a slow speed and when you finally surface again the next airplane is ready for you.

1: If you don't attack the airplane, you dive, the airplane return to base, reports you, it will then come straight back again in 15 minutes.
2: If you shoot it down, the airforce expects the patrol aircraft to arrive when its fuel is almost empty, perhaps in another 15-30 minutes, you would have alot of time to run full power on diesel. AND the airbase would have no clue where the airplane was shot down, giving you stealth advantage.

It may be that in real life they had problems shooting down airplanes, but in the game it works, I shot down 2 airplanes flying above me north of scapa flow and my hull had 99% when the battle was over and the planes were lost using the flak38, I have now switched to the quad barrel which I think is much better because of rate of fire is more important with these fast flying aircrafts.If it works for you, do not let me stand in your way. To me, the flak guns are only there to make U-boat crews (and the player) feel better. I do not trust them and I do not rely on them. Fighters are expendable and there are always more. The only consistent strategy I have seen is to dive. I have been jumped by planes one hour from departing port and used maneuvering and diving to avoid trouble. All kinds of ordinance dropped, to no avail. The tracking abilities of planes can be fooled just like destroyers despite the slow underwater speed of the boat.

Since the flak guns work for you, there is really little more I can say. You have found what works for you. I use a wholly different tactic that works for me.