Falklands 1982 vs 2012

[Skybird]

BBC has a nice vis-a-vis comparison of chances and resources used in a Flakland war today, and back then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17157373

[Skybird]

^ Flakland, eh? :D

[nikimcbee]

The Falklands War was 30 years ago. "But in military terms it is 100 years ago," says Clarke. British forces have advanced about 60 years in sophistication, but Argentine forces have barely improved, still using military hardware from the 1970s and 80s. Southby-Tailyour says they no longer have the landing craft to make an amphibious landing possible. However their special forces are highly respected.
Most military thinkers agree they offer the only credible threat through a surprise attack on Mt Pleasant. One scenario might be a civilian airliner packed with special forces to divert to Mt Pleasant, says Colonel Southby-Tailyour. "It would take a very brave politician to shoot down a civilian airliner in cold blood. The Argentine forces are good. They could jump out and shoot everything up."



Does Britain have the political will to fight for it?

[mapuc]

I have in some article read that Brazil and some other country i South america is on Argentines side on it's demand.

So I believe that this time Argentina would not fight alone, if it should come to that.

Markus

[_dgn_]

^ Flakland, eh? :D

There are maybe now a lot of AA guns in the island ...

Another thing : if UK had today to use cruise liners for transporting their reinforcement troops, I would not be a good idea for the Royal Navy to requisition any Costa ship ... :haha:

[soopaman2]

Most the South American countries would jump in this time.

Hugo Chavez would use it to poke at America using Britain as a proxy. Kinda like cold war era "proxy" wars.

A second Falklands war would actually be a noble undertaking for America to help its British friends.

We can help free the savages in Iraq and Afghanistan, why not help our mother country.

Don't most the Falklanders enjoy being under the British commonwealth? I always got that impression.

You guys oughta trade the Falklands with us for Puerto Rico. I will not throw in Guam. That is ours.

Where did you learn such imperialism son?

I LEARNED IT FROM YOU!:O:

(old anti drug commercial, sorry)

[Herr-Berbunch]

Another thing : if UK had today to use cruise liners for transporting their reinforcement troops, I would not be a good idea for the Royal Navy to requisition any Costa ship ... :haha:

To requisition any vessels we'd have to invade Panama or Mauritania first, we don't have any left! :o

[Karle94]

The article says the Brits can´t take the island back without carriers, which the Brits does´t have. Maybe they can borrow one from the US, according to the article one of those is equal to 10 of the ones the Brits had in 82. America has 11, surely they can put one on a southerly cruise.

[Skybird]

I got the impression that the British argument is that the Argentinians find it hard these days to even reach the island in strength, with an unsuspected airdrop on the airfield being their only option. Said airfield also is the British main supply gate now, and reinforcement gate. I think they know how to defend it, therefore. Back then, main supply was via ships.

Just 4 fighters nevertheless looks thin to me. Maintenance breakdowns, repairs, wear-and tear, the lucky hit for the enemy, accidents during refuiling... 4 can very fast falling down to 3 or 2 or 1.

Brazil will not throw its military weight into any war, i think. Its not good when two nuclear powers start shooting at each other, and the business ties to Europe and the Yanks are precious. Venezuela is far away.

I think chances for an Argentinian attack are very very very slim anyway.

[mapuc]

I think that this whole story will end up with some kind of a UN-resolution that makes the habitant on the island vote for who they want to control them
England or Argentina.

Or perhaps none of them

Markus

[_dgn_]

4 can very fast falling down to 3 or 2 or 1.


For Britain, it's enough !!!

It was already the case during WWII in Malta, with the 3 Hawker Hurricanes defending the island : Faith, Hope and Charity ...

[Sailor Steve]

A second Falklands war would actually be a noble undertaking for America to help its British friends.
Whatever happened to the Monroe Doctrine? NO EUROPEAN CONTROL IN THIS HEMISPHERE! :O:

Definitely just kidding, but it is an interesting question. :sunny:

[TLAM Strike]

For Britain, it's enough !!!

It was already the case during WWII in Malta, with the 3 Hawker Hurricanes defending the island : Faith, Hope and Charity ...
That is what the Typhoons deployed to the Falklands are named, they added Desperation for #4. :salute:

BTW I thought they were Gloster Gladiators?

[_dgn_]

That is what the Typhoons deployed to the Falklands are named, they added Desperation for #4. :salute:

BTW I thought they were Gloster Gladiators?

You are right, there was also a dozen of Gloster Gladiators.

But the myth is more beautiful with only 3 heroic planes ...

[Karle94]

You are right, there was also a dozen of Gloster Gladiators.

But the myth is more beautiful with only 3 heroic planes ...

Until the Wasp arrived with planes, that got bombed the moment they landed, then Wasp returned again along with Eagle carrying more planes. Saving Malta. Another happy ending.

[Sailor Steve]

'Faith', 'Hope' and 'Charity' were indeed Sea Gladiators, but they were also legend. Apparently there were at least six of them at the beginning of the campaign, and there were also Hurricanes. By the end of 1942 there had been more than 700 aircraft defending Malta, including the latest Spitfires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta

[soopaman2]

Whatever happened to the Monroe Doctrine? NO EUROPEAN CONTROL IN THIS HEMISPHERE! :O:

Definitely just kidding, but it is an interesting question. :sunny:

You are referring to Manifest Destiny?

I believe that only applied to continental US (what we call the lower 48)

at that time France, Spain and England held claims in the N American new world.

An excuse to whack indians. But I digress.
South America has always been an interesting location, due to the attention given to them, and how much they hate us.

The Mexican cartels have more power than the USA in south America, than the gringos do.

MS13 gang. worth a googling.

[Stealhead]

The Monroe Doctrine doctrine was the ultimate expression of Manifest Destiny which applied to what we consider today to be North America of which a large portion was under the control of Mexico many people seem to forget this fact for some reason.

Ever since it was put fourth in 1823 we have more or less followed it to this day
most Latin American nations are safely in the United Sates pocket and that is how we like it Venezuela is just an annoying blister like Cuba.The US says jump almost every Latin American leader says "How high senior?".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

Why do you think they invaded Panama back in 1989? They wanted to rid of Manuel Noriega not because he was involved in drugs they could have cared less but because he was going to allow the next major refurbishing project on the Panama Canal go to a none US firm Manuel Noriega was not going to play by our rules.


MS13 is not a Mexican gang it originated in El Salvador and is mostly made up of El Salvadorians they and Mexican gangs are huge rivals they hate each other the Mexican cartels deal with whoever controls the turf which is usually MS13 because they are the most violent and the Mexican cartels will employ Spanish speaking gangs though most of that "work" is in Mexico they go on a vacation so to speak MS13 goes where they can make money.

Actually most Latin Americans like or a are neutral towards Americans in my experience.The Cartels have power in Mexico and some parts of Central America the South is another Story all together.If you are in Columbia it is either the Colombian Government or FARC depending on what part of the country you are in same applies to most other nations to some degree.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Eagle used to be in my sig, listing after being hit. :cry: She still had some aircraft on board but some were in the air.

[soopaman2]

No matter the origin of MS13, they are still working for the cartels, in the southwest USA

Yes I am aware of the origins. My older brother( in law) is a prison guard in Northern state prison in NJ. Where they isolate gang scum like this.

The only way to stop this, is to stop lockin up the joint smoker, and instead locking up the crack dealer.


Cartels don't bother with pot, when coca and meth is so much more profitable.


3 years for smoking a joint, or corrupting an entire population with crack cocaine. sad state of affairs that one is as bad as the other.
Both recieve similar felony sentences in NJ. 3 flat minimum. Which is 9-13 months in prison, and the rest on parole.

(manslaughter convictions get lighter sentences than drugs in some cases)

[Oberon]

Operation Excess was one of the first supply runs to Malta IIRC, which brought the Hurricanes to Malta. I think there were a couple of Hurris there but the public knew Faith, Hope and Charity the most.
Swordfishes from 815 Squadron were on Lusty when she ran on Excess after being transferred from Courageous after she went down. In fact, the Swordfishes were just landing when the first Stuka pounced on her and dropped a bomb through the deck lift into the hangar. Turned the metal curtains below into death-traps.

[CaptainHaplo]

Argentina would be idiotic to try and take the Falklands. England doesn't need a carrier to "retake" the island (assuming it would be lost). Rest assured, the Brits love the TLAM, and they have the ability to put forces ashore from Trafalger/Astute class subs. The use of same would also devestate the Argentinian navy if it tried to blockade the island.

Other countries getting involved? Not likely. Risking a full on firefight with a NATO member in what would amount to the "backyard" of the US would be risking an awful lot on the cowardice of the US President. While 2 years ago it might have been possible, doing so in an election year where foreign policy is a major issue would just embolden the current president to act to shore up his image.

[TLAM Strike]

Rest assured, the Brits love the TLAM...

And I love them. :03:

After all they gave me Dr. Who and Red Dwarf. :rock:



:O:

[Stealhead]

No matter the origin of MS13, they are still working for the cartels, in the southwest USA

Yes I am aware of the origins. My older brother( in law) is a prison guard in Northern state prison in NJ. Where they isolate gang scum like this.

The only way to stop this, is to stop lockin up the joint smoker, and instead locking up the crack dealer.


Cartels don't bother with pot, when coca and meth is so much more profitable.


3 years for smoking a joint, or corrupting an entire population with crack cocaine. sad state of affairs that one is as bad as the other.
Both recieve similar felony sentences in NJ. 3 flat minimum. Which is 9-13 months in prison, and the rest on parole.

(manslaughter convictions get lighter sentences than drugs in some cases)


What makes you think that the cartels do not also smuggle pot? Because if you do you are highly misinformed you need to take a look at this justice department chart look at Marijuana in 2009 1,493,096 kilos (that is more than any other drug) was confiscated that is a lot of joints.Talk to Border Patrol agent they have spent many night chasing down mules carrying huge bails of weed on their backs their employer: McDonalds:03: .

Locking up every coke user is unfair when the pot smoker is also supporting the same people.

The Mexican cartels are after money they do not care what they are trafficking.

The only real cure to the problem is to admit that many Americans have a drug problem and treat that not arrest drug dealers and not users who are not gong to stop while in jail they will just pay even more to get their fix.We will never stop the supply because the demand is huge arrest one dealer and another will fill his shoes because the demand is not going anywhere in fact it only goes up while the old guy is gone and vacuum not yet filled.


In my opinion it is hard to say what the US might do if the UK and Argentina went at it over the Falklands a lot of factors in play there the US wants to maintain its primacy in South America siding with the UK might hurt that.

I think jimbuna said in another thread that it should be up to the residents of the Falklands(not the UK military troops there they out number the populace something like 5 to 1 I heard) who they want to be a part of.

[Sailor Steve]

You are referring to Manifest Destiny?
No.

I believe that only applied to continental US (what we call the lower 48)
You believe wrongly. The paper specifically said the the US would step in to challenge any new European colonization anywhere in the Western Hemispher.

at that time France, Spain and England held claims in the N American new world.
Yes they did, and this part of the Wiki article answered my question:
Doctrine noted that the United States would neither interfere with existing European colonies...

An excuse to whack indians. But I digress.
And you digress in a bad direction. The Monroe Doctrine had nothing to do with the indians either.

[Marcantilan]

Argentina does not have the military capacity to retake the islands from UK.

UK does not have the military capacity to retake the islands from Argentina.

The military status quo will remain.

[Nicolas]

I live 45 km away from Buenos Aires, across the river. Argentina was in a military dictactorship at that time, kidnaps, censorship, soldiers in the streets, nights at home, etc. Now in democracy with a woman being president. They sure learned something from that war, and they do not have the military power and the people way of thinking is different now, the economy is more important than this. They are claiming the islands 'back', they are trying to put pressure, but in my opinion not even thinking to try an invasion or agression.

[STEED]

UK does not have the military capacity to retake the islands from Argentina.



I heard on the radio some high ranking officer said the Falklands would fall if the airstrip was taken.


Personally this tit for tat exchange is a load of pigs swill on both sides.

[Jimbuna]

Hate to dissapoint but I doubt there will be any battle over the Falklands.

Britain is better prepared this time and having at least one sub on staion at all times means the Argentinians would have the same problem Hitler faced...getting across the pond.

[STEED]

Hate to dissapoint but I doubt there will be any battle over the Falklands.

Britain is better prepared this time and having at least one sub on staion at all times means the Argentinians would have the same problem Hitler faced...getting across the pond.

That was all bluff, of course it came to light after the war.

Both sides have acted like big baby's throwing there toys at each other. I can not comment on the Argentinian politicians but I can on ours, bunch of jerks the lot of them. Just watch Prime Ministers question time, just like kindergarten for spoiled little brats.

[Jimbuna]

That was all bluff, of course it came to light after the war.

Both sides have acted like big baby's throwing there toys at each other. I can not comment on the Argentinian politicians but I can on ours, bunch of jerks the lot of them. Just watch Prime Ministers question time, just like kindergarten for spoiled little brats.

I never take too much notice of PMQT or politicians for that matter....I've been to so many at Westminster and been on the periphery of so many security details I long ago decided the 'Big Yin' was right...."Don't vote, it only encourages the basums" :DL

[STEED]

Problem is jim, we got a load of bigger dimwits who vote for them!

Apart from my mate Dave who once said on his doorstep to a canvasser who ask him is he going to vote which he answered no, I'm staying in to shag the wife. :rotfl2:

[TLAM Strike]

Hate to dissapoint but I doubt there will be any battle over the Falklands.

Britain is better prepared this time and having at least one sub on staion at all times means the Argentinians would have the same problem Hitler faced...getting across the pond.

They might not come by sea this time.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5162/20100501ituzaingc3b3air.jpg

500 Royal Army regulars + about 225 local reservists vs about 560 Argentine Paratroopers in the first drop (they have a Brigade but lack the planes to drop them all at once).

It would be a hell of a fight. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

They might not come by sea this time.

500 Royal Army regulars + about 225 local reservists vs about 560 Argentine Paratroopers in the first drop (they have a Brigade but lack the planes to drop them all at once).

It would be a hell of a fight. :hmmm:

Then my assessment would be....'The Typhoon Turkey Shoot' :DL

Aided by the Rapier and Type 45 PAAMS

Rapier (if they try to come in under the radar envelope)

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/artillery-air-defence/1513.aspx

Type45 PAAMS


The missiles being developed for PAAMS are the Aster 15 and the Aster 30. The Type 45 will be able to carry up to 48 Aster 15 and Aster 30 missiles. The Aster missile carries an inertial computer with datalink, an active J-band Doppler radar seeker and 15kg warhead.
The speed of Aster 30 is Mach 4 and the range is more than 80km. The missile has manoeuvrability of up to 62g, achieved through the use of the EADS Aerospatiale PIF/PAF guidance system. Aster 15 has a speed of Mach 3, range of more than 30km and manoeuvrability of up to 50g.


http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/

[TLAM Strike]

Then my assessment would be....'The Typhoon Turkey Shoot' :DL

Aided by the Rapier and Type 45 PAAMS

Rapier (if they try to come in under the radar envelope)

First the Rapier is rubbish, it not much more capable than a Stinger. Its a great missile for when the enemy is already bombing you.

The PAAMS on the Type 45 has a range of about 60 miles meaning it can cover either the north or south side of one of the Falklands. The enemy can always land on the side its not guarding.

Only four Typhoons really limits how many Argentines they can shoot down. If the enemy is smart they will force the Typhoons to attack several waves of fighters first depleting their missiles.

[Oberon]

If the enemy is smart, they won't attack at all. :O:

[Jimbuna]

First the Rapier is rubbish, it not much more capable than a Stinger. Its a great missile for when the enemy is already bombing you.

The PAAMS on the Type 45 has a range of about 60 miles meaning it can cover either the north or south side of one of the Falklands. The enemy can always land on the side its not guarding.

Only four Typhoons really limits how many Argentines they can shoot down. If the enemy is smart they will force the Typhoons to attack several waves of fighters first depleting their missiles.

How many dozens or hundreds of aircraft with enough skilled pilots do you suppose they have?

Not official (view via internet numbers but front line aircraft and wholly committed pilots).

If the balloon went up and a few troop carrying planes were 'downed' I should imagine the initial troop eagerness/morale would quickly dinintegrate.

They weren't too keen on meeting British infantrymen up real close in 82 as I recall.

Another point....those aircraft that survived the first wave would probably find their home airfields inoperable on their return so it is not beyond reasonable imagination to doubt a second wave would be forthcoming.

A further point...I strongly suspect the US would be passing on plenty of satellite intel to us and perhaps even an AWAC or two on 'routine patrol'.

The bottom line being...there are a lot more assetts there than a 20 man marine detachment this time.

[Skybird]

The original BBC article mentions just one scenario that imho indeed needs to be taken care of: that an Argentinian special command force tries to sneak in on a civilian regular flight that gets "diverted" over a claimed "emergency" that "forces" it to land at the airbase on the Falklands since it would be the only one in reach - and then trying to take it in Trojan Horse manner, in a surprise assault. No British supplies or reinforcements could come in, then. But no Argentinian forces could come in, too - since the British troops would have the means to shoot down any Argentinian transports.

So taking the airbase, would not mean Argentinian victory, but a stalemate. The question then is who could hold out for longer time. A British sub is enough to deny them naval transport as well.

The whole rumbling down there is not about nationalism, but about the suspected resources in the surrounding sea areas.

I currently do not see any serious attempt for a military adventure there anyway. It is rethorics to distract from innerpolitical problems.

[Tribesman]

They weren't too keen on meeting British infantrymen up real close in 82 as I recall.

No surprises there, the british infantrymen have terrible table manners.

[Oberon]

No surprises there, the british infantrymen have terrible table manners.

Well they didn't exactly send an message...how were we to know that we were supposed to use the best china and cutlery? :nope:

[soopaman2]

Well they didn't exactly send an message...how were we to know that we were supposed to use the best china and cutlery? :nope:

Maybe they assumed you would be gentlemen, pistols at dawn.

Or maybe they lack the military tradition, equipment and training the Brits have.

In other words, shivering scared.:D

[Jimbuna]

No surprises there, the british infantrymen have terrible table manners.

I put it down to the steak knives we brought to the dinner table.

http://static.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld-ic/imageasset/iclarge/historyworld-webapp/user/KIMTYRRELL/object/dQSzBmPyRWKss59oc_CXrw/asset/1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/dQSzBmPyRWKss59oc_CXrw

[TLAM Strike]

I put it down to the steak knives we brought to the dinner table.

http://static.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld-ic/imageasset/iclarge/historyworld-webapp/user/KIMTYRRELL/object/dQSzBmPyRWKss59oc_CXrw/asset/1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/dQSzBmPyRWKss59oc_CXrw
A few units were rather fond of these as I recall...

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3666/kukriknifefancywleather.jpg

[Jimbuna]

A few units were rather fond of these as I recall...



Oh yes indeed!! :DL

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-IBzbM_RoeE/TUHXDMG6iCI/AAAAAAAADks/Oo9vbQCP4mA/s400/ghurka2.jpg

[soopaman2]

God bless the Queen.

And the wonderful cutlery she bestows on her mightiest.:salute:

Brits always knew about dining manners...(since the food sucks, compensation and such).. OOOOHHH.

Kidding, but use more garlic, and salt...