Rift between Germany and Greece widens

[Jimbuna]

I'm at a bit of a loss here...why did the Greeks accept the money then?

They certainly can't argue they weren't aware of the conditions attached, so I'd have thought if the Greek people were angry with anyone it should be their own politicians.


The rift between the two countries has grown steadily; there is increasing resentment among Germans that they are largely footing the bill for the ever-growing Greek bailouts. German media have written about Greeks as lazy and unproductive.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17177200

[nikimcbee]

Vendor, what have you done with Jim?:haha:

[Herr-Berbunch]

€130bn for Greece, ~€12.000 for each Greek - If I were the Greek government I'd just hand it out and tell them to emigrate. :stare:

Last one out turn off the lights.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Vendor, what have you done with Jim?:haha:Maybe Jim just noticed obvious possibility to increase his post count. :D

...or alternatively Vendor is sitting behind Jim with 9mm aspirin dispenser. :O:

[Skybird]

How to build a submarine from a ship? Sitting on a deck below the waterline, drilling holes into the hull.

That's the German cleverness these days.

We indeed believe the holes in the hull is the new vogue, looking so convincingly and nice that sooner or later the other nations in the world will love it so much that they follow our example and start drilling holes into their own ships as well.

[Schroeder]

Drilling? I would say we're using Blockbuster bombs right now.:nope:

[Jimbuna]

I believe the Greeks are being a tad ungrateful and disrespectful.....hand the money back and pull out of the Euro by all means but don't bite the hand that's feeding you.

[Skybird]

I believe the Greeks are being a tad ungrateful and disrespectful.....hand the money back and pull out of the Euro by all means but don't bite the hand that's feeding you.

Why not? I mean they are dealing with Germans, not with just somebody else. With Germans you can do like that. Since WWII, those Germans will even give you some salt and pepper and wish you Bon Appetit.

Our finance minister has just recently excused to the Greeks when their president and their former foreign minister complained about the German payments being given in a too unrespectful, Greece-offending manner!!

Heck, the self-disolving of Germany in what is called over here an "integration process" is even anchored in the German constitution! It is probably the only constitution in the world calling for the self-dissolving of the nation that the constitution holds.

[Oberon]

I'd wager Greece being the DPRK of Europe before the decade is out.

[HunterICX]

Perhaps some of you should read this before scapegoating Greece :shifty:

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http://www.dewereldmorgen.be/artikels/2012/02/10/peter-mertens-in-griekenland-botsen-twee-werelden-met-elkaar

hope the translation is not too messed up.

HunterICX

[MH]

Still question is if all this justify Greek lifestyle and if other countries should pay for corruption and stupidity of Greek government.
They had run this republican taxation economy in social democratic country.
So they have big public sector some rich shipping companies and tourism.....is that enough?
I also cant understand how EU let them drawn so deep in debts.

[soopaman2]

My cousin said something to me one day when discussing Greece a few months ago.

Pardon the "godwins law"

He said something along the lines they are attempting to do to Europe using bankers, what Hitler did to them using Panzers.

I am inclined to agree. Not saying Greece and it's culture of early retirement and tax evasion are infallible. Just that Germany throughout the whole Euro currency and PIIGS troubles has been hardline and merciless.


Welcome to American style capitalism Europe, where the winners dictate policy, and the people are just "rubes" to be taken advantage of.

[Dan D]

Hier is ze plan: German tax collectors volunteer for duty in Greece (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-rt-us-eurozone-germany-greecetre81o0f1-20120225,0,4340215.story)

"More than 160 German tax collectors have volunteered for possible assignments in Greece to help the struggling Mediterranean country gather tax more efficiently, the Finance Ministry in Berlin said on Saturday.

The German government says it wants to help Greece develop a modern tax administration and has started recruiting volunteers for Greek duty. More than 160 German tax officials with English language skills have signed up and about a dozen also speak Greek, a spokesman for the finance ministry said.

"Greece's problems today are even worse than the problems faced with former East Germany in 1990," said Norbert Walter-Borjans, NRW finance minister, referring to the period after German unity when west German tax officials went to the ex-Communist east of the country to help improve tax collection.

"There was resistance then among some eastern Germans against western (tax collectors) but that's nothing compared to the reservations Greeks will have against Germans," he added."

Knock, Knock.

Who is there?

Zee German tax collectors.

The German tax collectors who?

Just kidding, Vee do not knock.

[nikimcbee]

Maybe they could try the Lebensraum thingy again?:hmmm: Third time the charm?:hmmm::hmmm:

Great summer holiday homes?:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

@Dan D

That is quite interesting...perhaps they have room for some from HMRC because us Brits are paying far too much in taxes (at least the humble working class are) :nope:

[soopaman2]

Still question is if all this justify Greek lifestyle and if other countries should pay for corruption and stupidity of Greek government.
They had run this republican taxation economy in social democratic country.
So they have big public sector some rich shipping companies and tourism.....is that enough?
I also cant understand how EU let them drawn so deep in debts.

The greek lifestyle should not be Europes problems, (in reality we feel that crap in America) but the worry is on the stock market, not the general welfare of the people. Anytime rumblings from Greece or Europe happen the stock market takes a dump, which is bad for the elites who make all their money on the casino.

You wonder why the EU let them do it?

My educated opinion is...

It is because they wanted to create a global conglomerate that would overthrow the America/China/Russia worldwide trade dominance, spearheaded by Germany of course. Who remains one of the few staunch defenders of the failed Euro currency.

Europe (as a whole) may be small in relation to other (larger) countries, but they are vastly more idealogically fragmented. There is nothing culturally tying all the countries together, the allegiance is monetarily, which is great for the elites, but not for the "rubes" who keep the racket going.

[Herr-Berbunch]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--12uJi0cNag/TfcarF2WQVI/AAAAAAAACmA/bnNFBvqOOc0/s1600/trojan%2Bhorse%2Bcartoon%252C%2Beuro.jpg

[Skybird]

My cousin said something to me one day when discussing Greece a few months ago.

Pardon the "godwins law"

He said something along the lines they are attempting to do to Europe using bankers, what Hitler did to them using Panzers.

I am inclined to agree. Not saying Greece and it's culture of early retirement and tax evasion are infallible. Just that Germany throughout the whole Euro currency and PIIGS troubles has been hardline and merciless.


Welcome to American style capitalism Europe, where the winners dictate policy, and the people are just "rubes" to be taken advantage of.
Nonsense that is the not common Nazi BS that is flying from greece to germany becasue Germany is not enthusaistic about sinling billions and billions into a bottomless pit (but nevertheless we do). They compare the modern Federal Republic to the Third Reich and compare Merkel to Hitler and bring German polticians not folliwng their payment demands oint eh same lebel as war criminals and genocidal massmurderers.

Greece and Greeks do not wish to realise that in the very first theymuist pount finger at themnselves. We have not messed up their so-called "state". They did - since many many centuries, time and again, never any different.

The hostility againstn mGermany also is becasue Germkans are not entusiastic to repeat the american Fed's mistake to just print money and print and porint and more and more and more. The bill gets delayed at the price of multiplying the final costs. Also, Germany not only guaranbtees for the bailout fonds, but also for several times as much money - via the german share in the ECB which has started to bail out greek bonds as well, nothign else it is.

It's all madness, but the German are held repsonsibole if they do not endlessly pay for it. It is so hilarious an attempt to blackmail us that I couold only laugh aboiut it any more - and heplessly crmajng my fist when seeing that our wonderful parliament once again has waved through another tranche of several dozen of billions of german tax money that we will never see again and will need to compnesate for the loss by raising our own debts limitsd and needing to pay additional interest and devaluing our oensions and future finacial securitiy of our emplyoees and workers.

But we are Nazis if we do not do that. That is so cheap, c'mon, even if you are germanophobe you cannot believe that so easily?

I can give you a nice outlook, you very probably will see the financial full collapse of Germany sooner or later. In some years, maybe 10 to 20 at max, but probably earlier, europpe paymaster No. 1 will have run out of heartblood, and collapse. And then the EU is done any many European states as well. Honstely said, I am looking forward. The EU and the euro are the biggest catastrophes for europe since WWII. And where the Nazis failed to destroy all valuable culture they came in contact with, the EU increasingly succeeds. what both have in common, the Third Reich and the EU, is a strong dislike for rich diversity in regional culture and differences between the many many different peoples and tribes living in europe.

Because there is no Europe in singular - the word always must imply the plural. The idea of a singular One-Europe - is a self-destructive fallacy. Cooperation and coordination of economies in trading with non-european regions - yes, hell, that was what the initial idea of the ECC was about. Everything else - death to the EU, I say. It sticks its nose into things now that must not be its business at all. Language. Education. Local food habits. Public opinion forming.

It rmeinds me very very strongly of the sysytem they have had in the GDR and in the USSR. Merkel was chief-secretary for propaganda in the GDR's state youth organisation. Adn she really makes her origin recongisable in germany now. The official polkit slang has striking paralleols to the temrinology they used in the GDR media reproting about the heroic ruling of the party in the worker's paradise of real existing socialism.

the bailout for greece now that Greece wanted - does not help the Greek people, btw. It helps European banks, foreign investment fonds, and foreign hedgefonds. Like the money flood by the ECB does not liquidise the market to easy credits, but gets stockpiled by these same players. Paying for the ECB frenzy must the tax payer, one quarter of it by the Germans alone. And in the bundestag it was openly amditted today in the general debate that the money for Greece will not make a difference, and that more bailouts will most likely follow - also to no effect. the inteiror minister has rejected support for Merkel, btw, and the chancellor got no own coalition majority in parliament and was helped out by Socialists and Green. Interestingly, the communists also voted against the bailout.

If somebody plans to burn down that damn treacherous Reichstag, please accept me handing you the matches.

[soopaman2]

Then why do the Germans try so hard to hold onto this?

It is because they have alot of money invested in this, and being the dominant player, they can dictate economic policy to other weaker countries.

Not excusing the PIIGS, but you guys let them cook the books to get in, in the first place. The euro experiment is an exercise in greed.

Yes America and it's fed sucks the life out the country, but has little to do with the Euro sucking the life out of Europe.

I do not recant my previous point. It was not intended to call Germans Nazis. It was intended to show how Merkel feels it is her duty to muscle other soveriegn nations, because she holds all the money.

[Skybird]

Then why do the Germans try so hard to hold onto this?

It is because they have alot of money invested in this, and being the dominant player, they can dictate economic policy to other weaker countries.

Not excusing the PIIGS, but you guys let them cook the books to get in, in the first place. The euro experiment is an exercise in greed.

Yes America and it's fed sucks the life out the country, but has little to do with the Euro sucking the life out of Europe.

I do not recant my previous point. It was not intended to call Germans Nazis. It was intended to show how Merkel feels it is her duty to muscle other soveriegn nations, because she holds all the money.

It's Germany's eternally bad consicnce due to WWII. Calling Germany a strong power, or demanding it to lead and give orientation in Europe, makes germans feel guilty. Our foreign jester Westerwelle just said it tweo weeks ago or so: "Us Germans do not wish to ever lead europe." Old chncellor Schmidt has warned the Germans to be seen as leading in the crisis and that Germany shall not attempt to lead europe. Germany marks plenty of tough iron-ladied words at home - but on the european parkett she gives in to foreign demand again and again and again, or sooner or later allows to get "pressed" for acceptance over something. Its just that she excels in hiding it at home. that way, what immediately appears t be a german success in european diplomacy, in the following days and weeks got water4ed down, hollowed out, played down, with merkel accepting the final outcome that had nothing to do with what was agreed on. She does so by refering endlessly to "lack of alternatives" and calling it "consensus" and european unity - as if there would something exist as euro0pean unity! :haha: Germans are obsessed by r5eaching always a consensus and never appearing to be as somebody accepting conflict. Necessarily this means that German politics also give the idea that if pressed hard enough Germany will not stand by anything others do not like.

If there is one absolutely dominant characteristic in German politics since merkel came to power, than this: "total arbitrariness" (völlige Beliebigkeit). The conservative party is not standing for anything anymore, especially not for conservatism. It just exists from one day to the next, has no orientation, only lives for the purpose of opportunistically securing merkel's power.

I indeed think that you can talk of a new political school here, Merkelianism. I mean that serious. Total, opportunistic arbitrariness while lacking any content that could not be called by its precise opposite right the next day.

She's a disaster. Problem is with the socialists Germany would become even more enthusiastic to sink tax money in foreign bottomless holes. Scoialist international solidarity and denying of individual responsibility, and all that, you know.

[soopaman2]

Kinda off topic, but Germany should hold no regrets for WW2. At least us in America feel so. The past is the past, but that is easy for those untouched by some of the things a certain failed Austrian painter did.

German self guilt for WW2 is legislated. heck they got mad at Tom Cruise wearing a Nazi uniform when taping Operation Valkyrie in Berlin. (a classy movie to honor German heroes)

It is self imposed, most the world outside of Israel forgave and forgot.

[Skybird]

Kinda off topic, but Germany should hold no regrets for WW2. At least us in America feel so. The past is the past, but that is easy for those untouched by some of the things a certain failed Austrian painter did.
German psyche is crushed and forever in ruins, believe me. Denazification and a general education of German minds to never ever like the idea of a German strong nation again, does the rest. Even the constitutional structure of the modern German state is designed to weaken a strong central government - thats why the federal states are so very powerful in german and the chabncellor's formal power is so small compared to presidents and premiers in England, France or the US. Never no Prussian state again.

German self guilt for WW2 is legislated. heck they got mad at Tom Cruise wearing a Nazi uniform when taping Operation Valkyrie in Berlin. (a classy movie to honor German heroes)
It is indeed somewhat obscene that a high representative of Scientology plays a resistence fighter against hitler. That is as if Gaddhafi would have played the main role in Attenborough's "Ghandi". the movie indeed was not too bad, but also nothing special, and quite Hollywoodish, but the choice of main actor for that role simply is a complete fail over here.

It is self imposed, most the world outside of Israel forgave and forgot.
You do not have Poland as a neighbour. ::DL and we learn it in the euro crisis currently, the Nazi past is anything but forgotten in europe. We get called on that currently from several countries again - usually those countries wanting more money from us while weakneing german influence in the distribution process at the same time. But in Poland, you can score high with Antigermanism, it seems. But not all of their people, I assume. Usually I estimate that one third of them is falling for Kaczynski's hostility against Germany.

[Oberon]

I've never understood the crippling self-guilt of Germany, and I don't think I ever will. It is a shame, even in the dark era of Nazi Germany there were still some great people, and yet to section off an entire part of history as 'verboten'...well, I think it's a shot in the foot because it's just encouraging people to dabble in that which is forbidden. :damn:

[soopaman2]

Skybird, Poland does have some gripes, but do they gripe to the Russians too. They kinda agreed to split them up like a birthday cake along with the Nazis.

I know what the Austrian painter did, but what was the rest of Europes excuse. Yeah Russia, you...No one talks how the Ribbentropp/Molotov agreement split up Poland...

I forgot, the victors write history. Which means anyone who claimed allied side is just, and Axis is simply a dungheap for our forces to practice on, and subjugate for fun.

Screw you Italians, Nips, and Germs.

(not really)

late edit: I hate Cruise as a man, but appreciate Operation Valkyrie as a movie, I thought it held tribute to the heroes of Germany well. Regardless of the main actor.:salute:

To each our own, most of America is past Toms nuttyness. He is still is great actor IMHO. Though still a half a lunatic.

[MH]

It is self imposed, most the world outside of Israel forgave and forgot.


Evryone here keeps a German in cage and sticks needles into him from time to time...Nazi flying sources are not much of an issue though.

When talking about holocaust Germany always comes up and not aliens ...go figure.

[JU_88]

To a large extent, we are all in danger of becoming like Greece as we have all been spending beyond our means, maybe not quite as badly or as irresponsibly as the Greek goverment - but find me one country in Europe with a balanced budget over the last decade.
Its easy to bash the Greeks now, but lets see how we behave if and when we end up in a similar situation as them.

[Skybird]

I've never understood the crippling self-guilt of Germany, and I don't think I ever will. It is a shame, even in the dark era of Nazi Germany there were still some great people, and yet to section off an entire part of history as 'verboten'...well, I think it's a shot in the foot because it's just encouraging people to dabble in that which is forbidden. :damn:
In 955, Otto I. defeated a Hungarian army at the city of Augsburg, on the so-called Lechfeld. The point here is that at that time there was no singular national entity in form of a united kingdom, empire, or feeling of a shared identity. But in this battle, a very diverse alliance of armies from many different spots of what was to become later Germany, defeated an enemy who was hostile to them all. Historians usually give this battle as the birthday of a German national identity.

that was over a thousand years ago. In later centuries, German artists, philosphers, thinkers, scientists, painters, composers, technicians infleunced the unfolding of world's cultural fate and its movement towards modern progress to a very fundamental, vital degree. Technology, science, engineering, medicine, classical music - fields that are unimaginable in their present welath woithout the old Germans of the past.

But in many Germans' heads, especially the heads of the left and the protestant church, this plays no role, they reduce these 1000 years to just those 12 years of Nazi tyranny. Those 12 dark years are the history of Germany now. The only history.

:damn:

After two world wars caused and lost, Germans canot argue from a position of strength anymore, for us, "strength" translates into "immoral". The virtue that is embraced in germany more than anywhere else in the EU, is weakness and well-meaning. Its a people of socially over-nannied, unrealistic softies. We mean it well - and to us that is enough to qualify us as the finest of the finest. even more we think we must save the rest of the world by meaning it well and setting examples on the basis of meaning it well, examples that we seriously expect allm others to follow in all their foolishness and self-damaging. Climate politics is such an example, but the Euro also is, and germany's EU-policy. Needless to say that this weakness and self-limitation almost invites parasites to suck our blood. That we let them we consider to be our "tolerance", and saying "No" would be too harsh and too unfriendly, wouldn'T it.

Dichter und Denker? No more. Can'T say I am happy anymore to live over here. We have peace, and it is plenty of small but nice landscapes, a very diverse palette of different landscapes. But the people is one I cannot get along with anymore. By emotion and sympathy for the idealistic fundament laid in the past, I feel more American than many here with whom I collided over the past years would imagine possible. ;) I never attacked the Us over the way they were meant, but over the way they have turned out to be, and the widening gap between how it was meant idealistically, and what it is now in reality.

[Skybird]

To a large extent, we are all in danger of becoming like Greece as we have all been spending beyond our means, maybe not quite as badly or as irresponsibly as the Greek goverment - but find me one country in Europe with a balanced budget over the last decade.
Its easy to bash the Greeks now, but lets see how we behave if and when we end up in a similar situation as them.
Just watch at the ECB and then tell me we will not end up as badly as the Greek. Just give it enough time, and it will turn out like that for everybody else. Including Germany. The ECB has a multi-megaton bomb hidden in it'S safe, and the thing is ticking.

Physicists know there is no perpetuum mobile in this world. But bankers and economists claim to know it better.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,817887,00.html


We have become the new villain

The German parliament is set to approve a new multibillion euro bailout package for Greece on Monday, but instead of thanks, southern Europeans are expressing their dislike of us. Germans will have to get used to their new role: We have become the Americans of Europe.

Here's an idea. Police reports used to exclude the ethnic origins of the perpetrators of crimes. Why not apply that practice to reporting the euro crisis? We could stop mentioning which countries are getting aid. Instead of writing about the Greeks or Portuguese, we could just refer to the recipient as a southern European country -- or, better yet, of our fellow European citizens in the south.

Perhaps that would serve to improve the mood in Europe.

You have to be very careful about what you say these days. One careless statement and suddenly you can get crushed by a wave of emotions. I know what I'm talking about. After the cruise ship accident near Giglio in Italy, I made a few irreverent comments about Italians that seemed to outrage half of Italy. The Italian ambassador in Berlin even gave me a dressing down. I'm just happy that Italy is part of the Schengen Zone. After reading what had been written about me in the Italian press, I don't know whether they would have let me back into the country.

In my defense, I can say that I am not the only person who has unwittingly triggered a diplomatic imbroglio in these difficult times. Who would have thought that people in Athens also listen to SWR 2 radio? But German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble had barely finished an interview with the public radio broadcaster from his southern German home region about the reform efforts of Greek politicians before he was accused of disparaging the Greeks (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,815973,00.html). "Who is this Herr Schäuble who insults Greece?" Greek President Karolos Papoulias roared back at Berlin. Schäuble, too, apparently underestimated how easy it is to insult people in the south.

The Chancellor in a Nazi Uniform

Sentiment towards the Germans isn't very good in the region right now. Hardly a day goes by without Chancellor Angela Merkel being depicted in a Nazi uniform somewhere. Swastikas are a common sight as well. It doesn't seem to help at all that we faithfully approve one aid package after the other. If calculations by experts are true, then we are far beyond the point where we are just providing loan guarantees.

A good deal of the ***8364;130 billion expected to be approved by the German parliament on Monday will never be seen again. But if you read the editorial pages of newspapers in the crisis regions, for whom this money is intended, you would be led to believe that we are out to achieve what our grandfathers failed to do 70 years ago (and this despite the fact that research into Hitler outside of Greece is fairly unanimous in the belief that National Socialism didn't launch its tyranny of Europe with a bailout package).

The Viciousness of Inferiority

It won't be long before they start burning German flags. But wait, they're already doing that. Previously we had only known that from Arab countries, where the youth would take every opportunity to run through the streets to rage against that great Satan, the USA. But that's how things go when others consider a country to be too successful, too self-confident and too strong. We've now become the Americans of Europe. The role reversal won't be an easy one either -- it is already safe to say that today. We Germans are accustomed to having people admire us for our efficiency and industriousness -- and not to hate us for it.

But before we complain too much about all this ingratitude, we should remind ourselves that we ourselves spent years passing the buck. As long as the global villain was America, the Germans joined in when it came to feeling good at the expense of others. The Americans also had every reason to expect a little more gratitude -- after all, it was their soldiers who had to intervene when a dictator somewhere lived out his bloody fantasies while the international community stood by wringing its hands.

People came to secretly rely on the USA as a global cop in the same way that Germany's neighbors are now expecting the Germans to save the euro. Unfortunately, however, the feeling of inferiority can be just as vicious as that of superiority.

Buying Your Neighbor's Sympathy

Of course, one can try to make oneself seem smaller than one really is. But this self-denial doesn't work. The Americans weren't much more popular under Jimmy Carter than they were under Ronald Reagan despite the fact that the man from Georgia was kind-hearted and plagued by so many moral scruples that his preference probably would have been to just stop governing. Obama's election also didn't do a whole lot to help the US' image in the longer term. A giant can't conceal his size for long.

One can also attempt to buy the sympathies of one's neighbors. In a certain respect, that is exactly the policy that Germany has pursued in Europe for decades. That's why there is no lack of politicians focusing on European policy who recommend the continuation of that policy -- which would essentially mean nothing less than assuming greater amounts of debt from its European partners through a stronger intervention by the European Central Bank or through euro bonds. But it appears the sums are too great to ease tempers through a simple bank transfer. After all, this is no longer about paying for a few wasted subsidies like the EU's infamous milk lakes and butter mountains that German money was being used to plug or clear away. It is about budget shortfalls so massive that the economies of entire countries are being swallowed by them.

We will probably just have to get used to the fact that, for a time, Germany won't be very popular in some countries in Europe. In the worst case scenario, we could spend our next holiday in America for a change. Or we could just claim we are Swiss -- as nobody seems to have any problems with them at the moment.

[Dan D]

@Dan D

That is quite interesting...perhaps they have room for some from HMRC because us Brits are paying far too much in taxes (at least the humble working class are) :nope:


HMCR, I had to look that up. Her Majesty’s tax collectors, the UK’s equivalent to the German tax administration.

Of course, if Greece should ask for assistance to reform its tax administration, this would be a joint EU effort.

Germany is not the only contributor to the Eurozone bailout found, though probably the largest contributor because it has the largest economy in Europe. That contribution it is not an altruistic act of charity, as Greece owes a lot of money to German banks.

German glumness, eh?

[Diopos]

I'm at a bit of a loss here...why did the Greeks accept the money then?

They certainly can't argue they weren't aware of the conditions attached, so I'd have thought if the Greek people were angry with anyone it should be their own politicians.
...


Where exactly in the "contract agreement" did it say that a condition for the bailout is the lender's unlimited right to redicule ~10 million people collectively portraying them as thieves, liers, cheats, lazy, .......... ?


Excuse me but, in this "name calling" feud between Greek and Germans, the initial assault came from up north. And there is probably a reason for this. Compare the following statements:
I don't want my tax money to be spent on a Euro Zone member who did not adhere to public finance principles and obligations as outlined in the european treeties
I don't want my tax money to be spent on a bunch of thieves, liers, cheats, lazy bastards etc, etc, ....
Obviously #2 eliminates the need for any further analysis (not so with #1, though).
What has been notoriously downpalyed in the media is that the greek goverment, back in 2004, actually voluntarily admited to the Commission that there was a "problem" with the numbers (deficit, GDP, etc Link (http://www.greekdefaultwatch.com/2010/10/lies-damn-lies-and-greek-statistics.html) and Link (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/GREECE/EN/GREECE-EN.PDF)). As a result the European Commission initiated an excessive deficit procedure against Greece in 2004 which lasted until 2007. Theoretically for 3 years the Greek economy and statistics were under the scrutiny of the Commission. Obvioysly whatever problems Greece is facing now, were clearly present in the 2004-2007 period. So you see, as Statement #1 allows for analysis, there is a "clear and present danger" of spreading some of the blame beyond the Greek borders. And this is a "responsibility contagion" many people want to avoid.

Isn't it interesting that now, as austerity measures start to materialize in other EU countries, there are demonstrations of solidarity to the @##%$!*! Greeks :hmmm:.

And yes the Greeks are very angry towards the politicians. Lots of incidents of public harassment.:yep:

.

[Schroeder]

After two world wars caused and lost, Germans canot argue from a position of strength anymore,
^That is a nice example how well the system works. We're even blaming ourselves for WWI....as if we had been the only driving factor behind it all.:nope:

[Jimbuna]

IMHO a lot of solidarity has been shown toward the Greeks but probably less by Britain seeing as how we haven't adopted the Euro (thank God).

looking at some of the contents of this thread only reinforces my view that the EU is not working as stated on the label.

[Jimbuna]

HMCR, I had to look that up. Her Majesty’s tax collectors, the UK’s equivalent to the German tax administration.



My apologies...I should have written the full title:

HMRC - Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs

[Skybird]

Diopos, it remains a fact that while the EU back then willingly ignored the Greek fraud over financial numbers in order to accept Greece into the Eurozone, it nevertheless was Greece, comitting the deed. It remains a fact that since decades your public sector, the administrational structure, was hopelessly overblown in size, and the most prominent negative example of lacking efficiency in alleurope. It remains a fact that EU and foreign states repeatedly found the Greek state being completely unable, due to the itnernal poltical constellation of lobby parties, to succeed with reforms. It remains a fact that the Greek people since years and decades knew this, partcicpated in it and took the benefit from it as long as it worked, but not before now - with others being expected to pay your bills endlessly - has started to protest - not so much against the corrupt state and the dysfunctional structures of that state, but against those European countries one had expected to hold hostage and to blackmail and to held responsible for Greece'S financial failures.

Now taht the sh!t hits the fan and your people are indeed in fears over there very existenc ebeign threatened, many pf you still eny the reality of that it were YOU for the most - not the Germans, not the EU, jnot anyone else - who have run your country in a way so that now you have slammed the car against the wall at maximum speed.

And let'S face it - your failure costs other people in Europe more money than your state ever had. You lived a big dream, and it burst - and still you hold the others responsible for it.

And then you wonder why you are liked that much currently, when you compare those poaying your bills with mass murderers and war criminals? I absolutely see the social misery spreading in Greece. But you see, it was you living beyond your emans, ignrorring your lacking economic competitiveness, and wanting to join the Euro on the basis of lies and forged numbers.

That you find solidariyt from other nations being ind nager to also collapse over their debt burdens and expecting some countries oin the North to bail them out, is no surprise. They want, like you Greeks, the key to the other nations' treasure chest.

The German treasure chest holds a credit note over 2.x trillion euros currently. 6-8 trillion if one calcuates future pensions on the basis of current state employees and other mandatory payments in the forseeable future the state canot avoid. In other words, germany not only has no spare money to spend as gifts - Germany is deep in red numbers. Gerany nevertheless guarantees for one quarter of the ECB liabilities, andn the ECB nolonger is independent but is busuy in bailing out Greece in several indirect ways, too. Plus several dozen billions Germany has agreed to guarantee in two bailout packages for the Greek crisis now - money of which we all know we will not see one cent again, not now, not in 30 years?

Still you Greeks poijt fingers at others, and how others brought misery about you, and lecture you. The simple fact is you peope down there are incomeotent to run your own sate, else you would not be oin that pitifil place of a failed state that your country de facto is. Corrupt state structures, incompetent administration, powerless governments, no proper tax registers, no economical competitiveness.

I am not willing to take any bull from you for that we bail you out over your own sins again and again and again and spend hilarous ammounts of money that we lack ourselves as a matter of fact - and get called Nazis and get accused of not paying the respect to Greece that it claims to deserve. what does Greece deserve respect for, hm? What do you contribute to Europe that would be of value and justifies that you live on our tic since so long? you cannot even export your olive oils without siubsidies by the EU. Nobody cared as long as you could manipulate your Drachme. But now with that no longer being possible, you're in a mess. Yes, the EU looked away when you joined the Euro. But you always werre free not to join the Euro and not to cheat and lied. Like you always were free to bring your failed third world state into order and into a functional adminstrational manner before events poushed oyu over the top of the cliff.

Usually i would not be so blunt, but when you accuse us of being reponsible over your failures while WE pay you bills at our cost and with many many zeroes on the cheques, then I say enough is enough, lets talk straight. And straightly said, your country is a millstone around the neck of other eurpoepan countries, threatening to pull their heads under water as well.

The real fun will start when it comes to Italy and Spain. But the Italians at least seem to be able - despite their usual chaotic political scene and five dozen governments since WWII - to come up with a technocratic government that tries to tackle the emergency and with support of the people. But with the country flying apart in all directions, not even at the time of utmost emergcny Greece is able to come up with even just that! and if i look into history and go back into the time of Ancient Greece and the city states, then I see a pattern being repated today that has been repating itself since very long time.

So thank you for Plotin and Heraklit, Sokrates and Aristotle and all that and scientific methodology and formal logic - but none of you Greeks of the modern time have any credits to claim for these people, for they acchieved what they acchieved a very long time before you people today got born. And when many exiled Greeks living here warn us Germans to put any trust into your government and state and people, then this is a warnign that maybe we would be well advised to listen to.

Nothing personal against you, Diopos, neither have I explciit sympathy nor antipathy for you. And believe it or not, I see and understand and have sympathy for the existential fears many people in your country currently have. But pointing fingers at others will not do anything for you, it wil, just alienate others. This posting is a straight reply to your words. I do not care whether you find it offensve or not, becasue I think it is the simple truth, and the truth is impossible to be offensive. You Greeks can think and talk the way you did here - but not before you guys stop taking hostage the better part of Europe becasue your creditors have so high stakes to lose in your mess, and not before you stop taking our money in stellar quantities to let it dissappear to no effect, and not before you stop holding others responsible over your own monumental failure in handling your pitiful charicature of a completely dysfunctional state. As I see it, Greece is of the standard of a third world country, sorry.

Respect is no right. Respect is no given as a gift. Respect must be earned. Currently, we all just ask ourselves why your place would deserve some. we give billions and billions, we ruin our own employees' future prospects over your cause, and what we get back from you is sh!t and arrogant words.

Thank you. We will not forget that.

P.S. A plan was reported that 160 german tax officials will go to Greece to build a functional system of tax-collecting. No doubt that this will not be to yourliking and again you will cry foul and hellfire. But the truth is I assume the Germans will fail in the face of the mere size of the mess - and then again will be held responsible and will be accused even louder. I wish we would not send them, but leave Greece to itself as long as the Greek people do not stand up, stop complaining and start to build the state themselves by their own effort - and then maybe ask for guidance by other EU states. To leave the euro, is an unavoidable necessity for that, and for any other rescue attempt. But Greece, for the coming 20-30 years, will be like a reservatory in the european landscape, I think that is clear.

[Skybird]

and as a reminder, this: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1841501#post1841501

[CaptainMattJ.]

^That is a nice example how well the system works. We're even blaming ourselves for WWI....as if we had been the only driving factor behind it all.:nope:

Its sad to see this still today. I love the germans. If there was any other country in the world id like to live in, it's germany.

And to see the German people STILL kick themselves for the rise of a psychopath in the midst of a horrible depression, and being subject to the injustice of the Versailles Treaty, is saddening. :nope:

[soopaman2]

^That is a nice example how well the system works. We're even blaming ourselves for WWI....as if we had been the only driving factor behind it all.:nope:

I do not get that, blame yourself for the actions of some silly Serbian? It started in one of the most politically/ethnically diverse region in Europe, with a history of instability. No offense to my Balkan friends, but it is what it is.

Germany simply responded in the case of WW1, they did not start it.

WW2 was a product of an oppressive and unreasonable treaty of Versaille. (yeah you France and England)

Wiemar Republic was in the grips of hyper-inflation (see Zimbabwe for modern examples of this). You would be paid for your work, and by the time you got the money home (in a wheel-barrel) the money you recieved was worth half its value.

Wiemar money served a better purpose as fire kindling, the country was screaming for someone to give it back its pride.

So I say again, Germany should feel no shame for the past, and concentrate on its new role as a world leader.

[Skybird]

World leader...? I fail to see Germany having the potential as a world leader. we have ruined our reputation in the UN's SC. Our military is a mild player unable to project greater land combat power without massive assistance by the US or Russia (transport capcity, logistics). Our economy is extremely export-oriented, which makes it quite vulnerable, China has topped us anyway. We are runnign out of brain power over here as well. Our treasure chests are empty and filled with coupons with printed red numbers on them. Our diplomatic power, like the EU's in general tends to go towards nil regarding the crisis hotspots of the world.

I fail to see how Germany could be seen as a world leader. I would say it is an influential regional power in Europe, beside France. And not more. Financially, we are currently better positioned than many others in the West - but we still are in deep debts and need to expect a deep fall sometime in the future, sooner or later.

the leadership over the world is in full transition from the US to China, as I see it. The process will move on in this century. Guns, coins, and economy, that is what power is about in the realm of national states. Germany lacks the guns, runs out of coins, and its economy is dangerously dysbalanced. the effect from all this may not be felt this year, or the next. But in the forseeable future.

[CaptainHaplo]

The problem is that Germany want's the Euro to succeed. If it doesn't, then Germany has invested so much for nothing. Thus, it "has" to - and that means bailing out other countries who fail to control their own economies. Germany wants to be the economic powerhouse - but as long as it remains tied to the Euro, it will be pulling a massive weight trying to get there.

[HunterICX]

I do not get that, blame yourself for the actions of some silly Serbian? It started in one of the most politically/ethnically diverse region in Europe, with a history of instability. No offense to my Balkan friends, but it is what it is.

Germany simply responded in the case of WW1, they did not start it.

Nor the Serbians or Balkan countries are to blame for it.
Did the serb gave the starting shot? perhaps but WW1 was in the making even without the Assasination of the Duke.

It where the old ties of alliences, dying empires and rising great powers and the ones that struggled to maintain their status that got whole of Europe into a Great War and took the whole world with it.

HunterICX

[Skybird]

The problem is that Germany want's the Euro to succeed. If it doesn't, then Germany has invested so much for nothing. Thus, it "has" to - and that means bailing out other countries who fail to control their own economies. Germany wants to be the economic powerhouse - but as long as it remains tied to the Euro, it will be pulling a massive weight trying to get there.
What'S even better, Germany pumps all this money into europe and does so on the basis of its economic strength and its high exports. That is the basis for its feee space for financial manouvers. Limit that space, and German finances decline and finally collapse - and done you are with Germany'S payemnts for europe. Still we get attacked over our economic competetiveness! That we tried to adopt to the crisis soon, by models that we got laughed about for and that now gets copied by others, is being turned into an argument against us. We are "too successful", they say - but the money produced by this success they take nevertheless, without a Thank You and with a fist waved at our direction.

Success makes you sexy, they say. I would say it different. Success raises demands by those who are not. Being in need to be helped by somebody else, raises hate against the helper. What it is really about in the end, is this: envy, and self-hate of those who refuse to admit that they have messed up. the mere fact that they must accept help if they do not want to drown is evidence for them that they failed.

I said that the EU since German reunification, and later the prematurely implemented Euro represent the by far greatest disaster in European history since WWII. And I stand by that statement. A europe of cooperating national economies that find shared psoitions towards the world: yes, I'm all for it. A Europe that is one state, with centralised government, year-planned economy driven by politicians, ideology denouncing local culture and habits and supressing the different identities of people in those many different, very different places that Europe is a summary of: No.

Either the Eu dies, or Europe dies. Because the EU today is the complete antithesis to Europe.

[Skybird]

Nor the Serbians or Balkan countries are to blame for it.
Did the serb gave the starting shot? perhaps but WW1 was in the making even without the Assasination of the Duke.

It where the old ties of alliences, dying empires and rising great powers and the ones that struggled to maintain their status that got whole of Europe into a Great War and took the whole world with it.

HunterICX
Nationalism. Simply that.

Some French guy put it very elegant. He said something like "Patriotism is love for thy people. Nationalism is hate on other people."

[Skybird]

German language:
Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article13894358/Roeslers-Experten-erklaeren-Athen-Hilfe-fuer-gescheitert.html)

The leftist "Sueddeutsche Zeitung" even calls the balance "verheerend" (devastating, disastrous):
SZ (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/geplante-hilfen-fuer-griechenland-viel-laerm-und-leere-worte-1.1296158)

German economy ministry declares offers for assistance to Greece as "fail" due to the Greek side delaying talks, boycotting partnership, and obviously not seeing any priorities in modernising the desolate Greek structures.

And this, in English: The Nazis are back:
Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,817995,00.html)