Libyans desecrate WWII allied war graves [Archive]

joegrundman

02-26-12, 03:18 AM

Meanwhile they burn american flags, turn to us when they want to rebel, and then go back to the same thing they were always doing. not to mention these soldiers died to Wrench the axis from North Africa.

Its all such idiotic tribalism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see U.S soldiers urinating on dead soldiers and it sickens me to see these hypocrites desecrate war graves. Its all so ridiculous...

i think this whole thing is just another indicator of the fundamental problems with the Islamic world and its relations with the non-islamic -that is, as some Britisher of the colonial era once said (and i forget who it was) the islamic world is like an enormous drum. You tap one small part of it and you hear the sound all over it.

They like to say that they are not monolithic, and emphasise the diversity within them, when it suits them to do so. No doubt it is true too in many aspects - and for sure Muslim Malaysia had little in common with Muslim Pakistan (although there are pressures for standardisation in recent years), it is also the case that there are many similarities, and especially this tribal instinct to unite in common outrage when their inflated sense of grievance is challenged.

The reaction to this display of unity of theirs is that we see them as united and associate their readiness to acts of violence that we see in kabul and libya with muslim communities in europe, russia and america. As you say it reinforces "idiotic tribalism"

Yes they asked for help when they wanted to rebel - why wouldn't they? Asking costs nothing. We helped them in Libya for our reasons, not for theirs. Although I acknowledge a little gratitiude wouldn't go amiss. Although you should also keep in perspective - how many people does it take to desecrate a cemetary? It's not like it was official policy of whatever it is that passes for government in post-gadaffi libya.

But also, i wouldn't confuse the status of allied war graves in libya. I think they do not have the same meaning in Libya as they do in France for example, whereby they are the cost allied forces paid to liberate the oppressed from tyranny.

I argue that in North Africa, they were not about this. They were one set of colonial rulers fighting a turf war with another set of colonial masters. Mostly the whole thing represents a reminder of the wretched condition to which the muslim world had fallen (and still is in) compared to their medieval glory days when the muslim world was roughly equal to or better than the other main civilisations of the day. In those days muslim lands were not merely the battlegrounds were great christian nations did battle with one another (and just a minor part of the battle at that).

I would be surprised if they felt that gratitude to the allied dead was a feeling that we expected of them.

Jimbuna

02-26-12, 06:43 AM

I read these comments on the link with both an air of interest and sadness.

I do not agree with what they have done but i can see why they would be angry,in the past few months there have been photos of US troops urinating on dead bodies and burning their religious books. They attacked our graves because we are guilty by association the same way that we will happily attack people saying they are helping the taliban etc. I wonder what the reaction of hardline Christians in the US would be if the found Muslims had been burning the Bible?

On behalf of all those dead soldiers,may I thank You Mr Cameron for helping to create this, at least the last regime in Llibya had the decency to respect our fallen of WW2!

Would someone care to remind us what the Saudis do to bibles confiscated on entry to their country? I could go on with many more examples of the uncivilised - and often fatal - nature of of the actions of islamic countries towards members of other religions.

Tribesman

02-26-12, 07:42 AM

Its all such idiotic tribalism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see U.S soldiers urinating on dead soldiers and it sickens me to see these hypocrites desecrate war graves. Its all so ridiculous...
Good point well made.

@joegrundman. one little point, you note the colonial nature as a difference between graves in France and in Africa, however it should also be considered that the silly tribalsim has led to many instances of French.....(can't call them Frenchmen in this instance for obvious reasons as scum would be a better suffix)...desecrating allied graves in France because they have a silly hatred of Britain or America.

Skybird

02-26-12, 07:48 AM

Pre-medieval tribalism, Islam, ultra-orthodox patriarchalism - that is like holding an open vial of Ebola, Plague and Anthrax in your hand and having forgotten where one has put the cap.

STEED

02-26-12, 07:54 AM

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!

Anyone would think the US Army shot a few Libyans for being in the way.

Books can be re-printed you know, hang on has anyone told them that? Makes you wonder.

These people...Are what's the point you know.

krashkart

02-26-12, 08:05 AM

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!

Apparently it means much more to them than that. I agree with you, though: "Just a damn book... get over it." :yep:

Tribesman

02-26-12, 08:13 AM

Its a bloody book for crying out loud!
Yes, and some people go mad over a flag, same sillyness isn't it.

Skybird

02-26-12, 08:35 AM

Apparently it means much more to them than that. I agree with you, though: "Just a damn book... get over it." :yep:
Obama excused to them - not to Allah, why is that? - on the same day when Amerian officers got shot dead in the Kabul HQ.

That is like sending a message of weakness, a message encouraging them.

Nobody should have excused over it at all. And if their heads pop open over it in anger - must not be our concern, but would have been of great benefit for the rest of mankind.

I read that some of the Qurans that got disposed, where used by prisoners to write conspratory message into them to communicate with other prisoners. I wonder why this profanity is of no concern for those "demostrators".

Islam is a political ideology first, a religious one only second. Politics is the intention, totalitarian control and supremacistic dominance - religion only serves as a deception. Self-victimization and claiming a status of eternal, always existing offence and being snapped over that, is a rethoric weapon to make the other feel bad, to make him excuse, to make him make another small step backwards while one makes one step ahead oneself.

On Afghanistan, since 2005 at the very latest I am saying that the war there already is FUBAR and is lost and cannot be won anymore. Since then I never had s single reason, not even the smallest one, to ever put that assessement into doubt.

krashkart

02-26-12, 08:57 AM

Yes, and some people go mad over a flag, same sillyness isn't it.

QFT. Every culture has a loose hinge somewhere. :roll:

Takeda Shingen

02-26-12, 08:58 AM

"Just a damn book... get over it." :yep:

On the other side, you can say that they are just damned stones.....get over it; the dead don't care. The problem is dogma. Many Muslims hold their religion close to the chest. Many in the West hold war and the military in a quasi-religious manner as well. If we all let our beliefs go, then there would be nothing to fight over. Nobody is, however, ever going to do that. Certainly we won't; it would be called unreasonable. And so to expect the other to do it is equally unreasonable.

When Tevye overheard the cries for 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', he quipped that soon the whole world would be blind and toothless. He is right.

krashkart

02-26-12, 09:09 AM

Obama excused to them - not to Allah, why is that? - on the same day when Amerian officers got shot dead in the Kabul HQ.

That is like sending a message of weakness, a message encouraging them.

Nobody should have excused over it at all. And if their heads pop open over it in anger - must not be our concern, but would have been of great benefit for the rest of mankind.

I read that some of the Qurans that got disposed, where used by prisoners to write conspratory message into them to communicate with other prisoners. I wonder why this profanity is of no concern for those "demostrators".

Islam is a political ideology first, a religious one only second. Politics is the intention, totalitarian control and supremacistic dominance - religion only serves as a deception. Self-victimization and claiming a status of eternal, always existing offence and being snapped over that, is a rethoric weapon to make the other feel bad, to make him excuse, to make him make another small step backwards while one makes one step ahead oneself.

On Afghanistan, since 2005 at the very latest I am saying that the war there already is FUBAR and is lost and cannot be won anymore. Since then I never had s single reason, not even the smallest one, to ever put that assessement into doubt.

I'm not clear on why the President is strengthening his ties to the ME. At a guess I'd say that whatever the reason, his actions must have reaped some benefit to our country.

I'd almost bet dollars to pesos that none of the protesters are aware of the coded messages. It's easy for people to get stirred up over something that seems so benign when they don't have all the facts. And who in a crowd of angry people would dare ask the logical question of "Why are we doing this?". Nobody would hear them anyway. :hmmm:

The war in Afghanistan:

I think it was FUBAR'd after the Taliban was driven out of the country. I've been reading up on the Korean War lately, and what I have learned so far is that the ROK divisions had plenty of reason to fight. They learned everything they could from KMAG, and used every resource made available to them by the US. I think that if the Afghan people had good enough reason to fight insurgency they would stand up and learn everything they can from our advisors. From what I've read it seems as if this is another war where the American soldier is expected to die for the indigenous people -- to do all the lifting so to speak. "Yes, we want our country to be safe, but we don't want to do it ourselves." Once our troops are withdrawn the country will slip back into chaos. Waste much effort? Oh yeah, it's a waste alright. :shifty:

u crank

02-26-12, 09:47 AM

The war in Afghanistan:

I think it was FUBAR'd after the Taliban was driven out of the country. I've been reading up on the Korean War lately, and what I have learned so far is that the ROK divisions had plenty of reason to fight. They learned everything they could from KMAG, and used every resource made available to them by the US. I think that if the Afghan people had good enough reason to fight insurgency they would stand up and learn everything they can from our advisors. From what I've read it seems as if this is another war where the American soldier is expected to die for the indigenous people -- to do all the lifting so to speak. "Yes, we want our country to be safe, but we don't want to do it ourselves." Once our troops are withdrawn the country will slip back into chaos. Waste much effort? Oh yeah, it's a waste alright. :shifty:

I couldn't agree more. 158 of my countrymen have died in this country and for what? Don't say it's for democracy cause that's just political crap fed to the gullible. Picking a side to support in this medevial society is like asking who you would like to run your neighbourhood; the Mafia or the Hell's angels. Their interests and goals are not what we want.

"Once our troops are withdrawn the country will slip back into chaos."

Sad, but for certain it will happen.

Tribesman

02-26-12, 11:00 AM

I'm not clear on why the President is strengthening his ties to the ME.
@krash
Money resources and ease of transport, plus arms sales and regional influence...same reasons every modern president has done so in the region. Same reasons as european leaders do it and the same reason why china does it.

Nobody should have excused over it at all. And if their heads pop open over it in anger - must not be our concern, but would have been of great benefit for the rest of mankind.

:doh:Someones hatred is clouding their very slim grip on reality.
When their heads pop open in anger it is other people who get their heads cut off.
If Skys eugenic dream of selective breeding can one day make it so brainless twats suffer a massive aneurism when they get angry it might be a good idea to go round annoying them for the fun of it and reaping its benefits, but in this reality the result is that they go round killing other people so it is a bloody stupid thing to do and is of no benefit at all.

"Once our troops are withdrawn the country will slip back into chaos."

@crank
What do you mean "back into chaos"?
The country has remained in chaos despite the troops presence.
One thing this latest act of stupidity by troops has done is bringing the chaos to the forefront in areas of the country where it was only simmering under the surface.

02-26-12, 11:20 AM

I would be surprised if they felt that gratitude to the allied dead was a feeling that we expected of them.

I would be surprised if anything really crossed their minds besides simple "Lets destroy some infidel graves"
It was probably something similar to Monty Python witch burning scene.

u crank

02-26-12, 11:45 AM

@Tribesman
I was quoting krashkart, but you're right on that. Bringing a war machine to any country can only cause or add to chaos. Trying to help these people with military intervention is pissin' into the wind. Every time you accidentally kill a civilian you make hundreds of new enemies, anyone of which has the potential to be another Bin Laden.
Original thought, we shouldn't be there. It's a hopeless cause.

krashkart

02-26-12, 12:07 PM

@krash
Money resources and ease of transport, plus arms sales and regional influence...same reasons every modern president has done so in the region. Same reasons as european leaders do it and the same reason why china does it.

Thanks for clarifying that. Some things just go over my head. :salute:

@crank
What do you mean "back into chaos"?

Yeah, that was my slip-up. :-?

TFatseas

02-26-12, 04:44 PM

From someone on the ground over there those books were burned because they were being used as "Kites" to pass extremist messages written between the lines between captured Taliban and other insurgents.

They just weren't disposed of very discretely.

_dgn_

02-26-12, 05:07 PM

U.S soldiers burned Koran. We know this episode.

But which are the consequences ?

-------------------------

For Muslims, these soldiers were NATURALLY Christians.

For Muslims, burning Koran is considered as a crime.

For Muslims, this was NATURALLY a Christian crime.

For Muslims, this Christian crime was NATURALLY premeditated.

For Muslims, this premeditated Christian crime was NATURALLY intended as a sacrilege.

For Muslims, punishing all Christians through the world for this sacrilege is NATURAL and OBLIGATORY.

Conclusion : for Muslims, punishing near Christians (even in tombs) is also NATURAL.

Would someone care to remind us what the Saudis do to bibles confiscated on entry to their country? I could go on with many more examples of the uncivilised - and often fatal - nature of of the actions of islamic countries towards members of other religions.

Good remark ... and a small precision : some US soldiers burned religious books in Afghanistan. Yes, this was not really intelligent, but it was only about paper. And I think that there is a doubt about the will to make a sacrilege.

But when Muslims are starting to burn some Christian things, they burn also paper (the Bible) ... and the church ... and the Catholic school beside ... and the priest ... and the Christian people inside (I mean : women, men, children ...).

In this case, is there here a doubt about the Muslim will to make a sacrilege ?

Another remark : maybe Western European people made the same terrible things 10 centuries ago. Sorry ! But we are speaking about TODAY (2011/2012 facts), not about a far past.

On this particular point, ask the Copts in Egypt : http://www.voiceofthecopts.org/

Last remark : why Western European people fighted Islam 10 centuries ago ? Because Muslims prevented Christians to go in Jerusalem for their pilgrimage or reduced them to slavery. What could happen if now Christians prevented Muslims to go in Mecca for their pilgrimage ? No doubt : the Third World War ...

Stealhead

02-26-12, 05:45 PM

U.S soldiers burned Koran. We know this episode.

But which are the consequences ?

-------------------------

For Muslims, these soldiers were NATURALLY Christians.

For Muslims, burning Koran is considered as a crime.

For Muslims, this was NATURALLY a Christian crime.

For Muslims, this Christian crime was NATURALLY premeditated.

For Muslims, this premeditated Christian crime was NATURALLY intended as a sacrilege.

For Muslims, punishing all Christians through the world for this sacrilege is NATURAL and OBLIGATORY.

Conclusion : for Muslims, punishing near Christians (even in tombs) is also NATURAL.

Honestly things like this only make me feel that organized religion is bad for humanity not just a particular religion.Some Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for many generations both sides did nasty things to the other during the crusades.Both sides have done nasty things to the other during the Lebanon Wars.Some Hindus and Muslims wish to wipe each other out on the Indian subcontinent.Some Jews and Muslims have be killing the other for many generations as well with both sides being guilty of nasty acts.
This fact leads me to feel that by and large organized religion is to blame.Almost every religion claims that it is right and all others are wrong and that makes it very easy first to use fear of damn nation to control people and it makes it very easy to make non believers as something less than human.

You need to read up a little more on the Crusades as well _dgn_ it is a great example of how organized religion is bad for all humanity.

Platapus

02-26-12, 07:32 PM

With both the Libyans and the Afghans, one has to recognize that there a contingent who is looking for an excuse, any excuse to demonstrate. If on one had burned Qur'ans they would have found some other excuse to be offended.

All we did was make it a bit more convenient.

Stealhead

02-26-12, 07:50 PM

That was the entire point I was making people though out history have used one religion or another as a reason to kill,maim,and act stupid.

You are just blinding your self to think that only people from a certain region or a certain religion are susceptible when it is know that
people all over the world use religion as their reasoning to do stupid things.

Not every Libyan or Afghan has the same views that is like saying all Americans agree with the Tea Partiers or the Occupy Wall Street protectors.

Skybird

02-27-12, 06:37 AM

Islam is what is defined as such by Quran, an dpratcice supported by sharia which is nimpossible to be separated from the Quranic tradition. there is no true Islam without Sharia.

The Quran teaches a fundamentalist ideology. Its purpose was and is conquest, and enforcing own military and social power by enforced unity. Of the masses. It bases on supremacist concepts, racism, explicit hate on Jews, and is not shy to waste own life to help the cause of Islam. Muhammad at one part of the Quran mocked his warriors when before a battle they got doubts on whether it was right that they try to kill those they were about to attack. He promised them paradise when they said they had doubts on whether they want to sacrifice thei9r own life in the effort to kill enemies.

Islam is no friendly, humane, tolerant ideology.

But it is perfectly possible for people to deceive themselves over the grim nature of Islam. Like not all "Christians" that once a year flock into the churches on christmas are really christian, but just want to get their yearly dose of sentimental feelings and childhood memories, Muslims can ignore all they do not want to be known about islam'S inner implication, but still claim to be "Muslim". But they are not.

Islamic ideology is extremely unlikely to be altered by exposing it to Wetsern connsumarism and way of life. Just weeks ago a federal study of the German govenrment had to conclude ONCE AGAIN that second and third generations in Muslim immigrant families radicalise massively and are more orthdoox than their parents and grandparents who came here 50 years ago. Another report at the same time two or three weeks agi I think showed that radical sects - in fact they are not radical at all but just truly islamic sects - massively blossom in Germany, and that the young move to them in masses. "Radical" hate preachers find growing and thnakful audiences here. In fact, thy are just Islamic. Hate is part of islam. In Western thinking it is about demonising the enemy. And To Isdlam everything and everyone not being Islamic is "enemy".

Westerns do not want to listen to this. It rules out their concepts of multi-culti and tolerance could every work the way Westerners want it. But these concepts only work to our own fall, with Islam benefitting from that. Ignorrance is a bad advisor. And we start to feel it. In Germany, in shrinking intervals more and more second-row politicians claim they want to implement shariah in German law code. But German judges time and again already act on the basis of shariah las and respect for this foreign culture -sometimes violating german law that way. Islamic "mediators" already now interfere with police investigations.Witnesses fall silent in fear, families force embers to not cooperate, crimes get covered and hidden, girl trading and abuse of females are on the rise, with the number of police success declining. Great thing, this Shariah mediation. It is becasue Shariah in prinicple is not interested in the question of who is guilty and who is victim. shariah focusses on mediating an outcome that allows the patriarchs to save their face and to kedep the lid on the pressure cooker so that nothing could disturb the social "freedom". And as you can imagine, women and girls come last in this hierarchy of priorities. As already the Quran says, the woman's confession is worth only half of that cofnession of a male, and its moral duty is to obey and to be submissive.

So, Steelhead, it may or may not be true that Muslims have different levbels of sympoathy for the Quranic teaching. But that does not chnage the Quanic teaching itself, nor does it make a big difference in reality. In the West, muslim parallel socieities are masiovely dominated by the true Muslims (you probably would call them "radical" Muslims). And the vast majority of Muslims, whether they be "moderate" or "radical" themselves, do not stop them, give them hiding and shaeter, and cimplain about us when we go after the "rqadicals" and call it rcism and discrminiation and insist we - non-believer sof their faith - nevertheless have to pay full respect to their customs and traditions even if mosques get used for conspiratory meetings, recruiting of cannon fodder for terrorism, and "radical" propaganda.

do not judge islam by what this or that Musolim stells you aboitu it. judge it by the Quran, Sharia practicing, and world history. Objective self-reflection and a critical anaylsis of itself is not what Islam is shining at. Islamic educations aims at right preventing this. ;) It is no education for learning how to independently using your brain on these issues, but it is about uncritically copying the Quran's dogma.

Tribesman

02-27-12, 10:07 AM

Islam is what is defined as such by Quran, an dpratcice supported by sharia which is nimpossible to be separated from the Quranic tradition. there is no true Islam without Sharia.

And that is where Sky runs into his usual problem of brainfreeze, according to him there is only one version of sharia, and that is the fairly modern wahhibi concept of it....which obviously is a view which is clearly self contradictory if you have a functioning mind:doh:

02-27-12, 12:04 PM

That sums it up...Muslims are pain in the back....but not all of them are bad.:haha:

Focus at the full part of the glass and don't piss the sensitive and very vocal rest...that's the basic in this political gymnastics.
Not because Islam is OK and welcomed...it is because it strong and dangerous or pain in a back when crossed.
Lets be smart and apologise....better than get a kicks in the balls right?:haha:

Penguin

02-27-12, 05:11 PM

I read a comment in another forum which goes like this:
"If we would have the same kind of love for fellow humans that we have for objects, we would be some steps futher."

Especially after reading about the suicide attack at the Jalalabad airfield today: yes, it makes perfect sense to blow up 9 fellow muslim civlilians because someone "disrespected" a book... :damn:

A professor of Islamic studies explained it like this:

Safi finds one analogy particularly helpful: The Quran is to Islam as Jesus is to Christianity. “In an Islamic universe ... the word becomes not a person, but a book,” he says. “For a Muslim to see the Quran burnt not as a way of burial, it would look and feel like someone burning Jesus, or a crucifix.”
(source:http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2012/0221/Quran-burning-What-is-the-respectful-way-to-dispose-of-Islam-s-holy-book)

This is the mindset I can't get. Well, no matter who this Jesus guy was, son of god or an human being with some thoughts that were revolutionary for its time: he was crucified, but his ideas survived.
Jesus, same as the quran, stands for some ideas. No matter if you burn people or symbols who represent these ideas - the ideas are still there.
If you truly believe into those ideas, or a faith, an ideology or something similar, if you have true convictions it doesn't matter what happens, you still believe as ideas can't be burned or crucified.
Maybe this is the "sin" of what many followers are afraid of: to have doubts about their own faith; the crutch which allows them to paint the world in black and white. What if the quran was only a book, written in the desert by other humans? What if the Earth still keeps on rotating, no matter if you burn one, none or all qurans?

I know there are many people on here with a faith, this is not to put you down, whatever gets you through your life is fine.
I have a problem with people who think like drones, unable to reflect their own mind and actions, unable to see beyond their pre-fab world.

With both the Libyans and the Afghans, one has to recognize that there a contingent who is looking for an excuse, any excuse to demonstrate. If on one had burned Qur'ans they would have found some other excuse to be offended.

All we did was make it a bit more convenient.

Although I presume that you mean "if one would not had burned", I think you exactly nailed it.

soopaman2

02-27-12, 05:33 PM

Skybird

02-27-12, 05:43 PM

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

For the British, it was about logistic supply lines in the mediterranean (Suez, Gibralatar) and the option to interrupt them (Germany) , and oil supply lines to the South-East ME. Germany for the main assisted the Italians who tried to deny the Brits their strategic interst. For Britain , the battole wasmore important, probably, since the UK was in danger to get strangled in the North Alantic, and had to defend the Germans in the air battle for Britain, with a German invasion considered to be a realistic threat for some time.

_dgn_

02-27-12, 05:49 PM

Honestly things like this only make me feel that organized religion is bad for humanity not just a particular religion.Some Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for many generations both sides did nasty things to the other during the crusades.Both sides have done nasty things to the other during the Lebanon Wars.Some Hindus and Muslims wish to wipe each other out on the Indian subcontinent.Some Jews and Muslims have be killing the other for many generations as well with both sides being guilty of nasty acts.
This fact leads me to feel that by and large organized religion is to blame.Almost every religion claims that it is right and all others are wrong and that makes it very easy first to use fear of damn nation to control people and it makes it very easy to make non believers as something less than human.

All religions ? The French philosopher Ernest Renan made a difference between the 3 monotheist religions (Judaism, Christianism and Islam) and the other ones.
For him, these 3 religions are hard, dogmatic and they regard themself as universal. But in fact, they were worked by their hard environment : desert ! The hot, vacuum, nude and infinite desert. A real hell on the Earth ...

You need to read up a little more on the Crusades as well _dgn_ it is a great example of how organized religion is bad for all humanity.

Which books do you recommend ?

TLAM Strike

02-27-12, 05:52 PM

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

Not saying it is right or that I condone it. Just saying the reasons were not noble in the first place.

When the French start peeing on allied graves, then I will get upset. Our cause was at least noble there.

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact? Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS. Africa and the Middle East were on "Our Side" for WWII at the point of a rifle, if it wasn't for 'western colonial interests' the list of Nazi allied countries would have gotten a lot longer.

Takeda Shingen

02-27-12, 05:59 PM

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact? Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS. Africa and the Middle East were on "Our Side" for WWII at the point of a rifle, if it wasn't for 'western colonial interests' the list of Nazi allied countries would have gotten a lot longer.

The 60 years of poor relations that followed the Second World War likely play a large role in why the West is not celebrated.

Skybird

02-27-12, 06:02 PM

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact?
When I was there, I got repeatedly celebrated (as a German) for my ancestors having killed so wonderfully many Jews. I should be very proud of our history, they said.

No joke, they really did. Not always, but far too often. Same in Iran, of course, and Turkey. From the metropoles to the urban areas.

Lovely.

_dgn_

02-27-12, 06:08 PM

Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS.

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini ? The Palestinian Arab nationalist, who was Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ?
He is sometimes given as Yasser Arafat's grand-uncle, but it isn't certain.

soopaman2

02-27-12, 06:09 PM

02-27-12, 06:24 PM

The 60 years of poor relations that followed the Second World War likely play a large role in why the West is not celebrated.

Sure.. you force the colonial dirty politics on some ME couturiers that made them filthy reach off western money.
You fought cold war and terrorism in ME.
You support popular dictators who become unpopular, you forced democracy you support Zionists colonialism.
You make Muslim kill Muslim by not supporting nobody.

They sell to you ,get reach and preach to hate you and your corrupted western open culture...and you are responsible for all the wrong doing.
Actually they have every reason to hate themselves but its much easier and productive to blame others.

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.
Its all because of western politics because they are too dumb to be so stupid or crafty...whatever you call it.

Takeda Shingen

02-27-12, 06:35 PM

Sure.. you force the colonial dirty politics on some ME couturiers that made them filthy reach off western money.
You fought cold war and terrorism in ME.
You support dictators, you forced democracy you support Zionists colonialism.
You make Muslim kill Muslim by not supporting nobody.

They sell to you ,get reach and preach to hate you and your corrupted western open culture...and you are responsible for all the wrong doing.
Actually they have every reason to hate themselves but its much easier and productive to blame others.

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.
Its all because of western politics because they are too dumb to be so stupid or crafty...whatever you call it.

That's a strawman argument; I assigned no blame. The salient issue is that relations are not good between the western powers and the arabic states, and this is the reason that they don't like us and don't want to celebrate us.

TLAM Strike

02-27-12, 06:36 PM

I was not trying to say the allies had no business there, just that the colonial map in Africa had alot of Euro (allied and Axis) colors on it.

And that the fight there had nothing to do with the actual citizens of the countries, but of politics elsewheres.

I do not expect allegiance from them honestly.

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

Egypt was granted Independence from the UK in 1922.
Libya was a pair of Italian colony captured by the allies, unified and given independence by the allied powers.
Syria was left a republic when allied troops pulled out.

By the end of the 1950s early 1960s all those countries would have their democracies usurped by dictators (one of whom only died last year).

Seems that where ever else Allied troops bled in the war democratic nations sprung up (the Philippines, France, Netherlands, Germany, India), except for the ME. :hmmm:

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini ? The Palestinian Arab nationalist, who was Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ?
He is sometimes given as Yasser Arafat's grand-uncle, but it isn't certain. Indeed that el-Husseini. :03:

When I was there, I got repeatedly celebrated (as a German) for my ancestors having killed so wonderfully many Jews. I should be very proud of our history, they said.

No joke, they really did. Not always, but far too often. Same in Iran, of course, and Turkey. From the metropoles to the urban areas.

Lovely.
You know I've heard of atheist/agnostic troops adding a christian denomination on to their dogtags in case they are captured; a "Masihi" is likely to get better treatment than a "Kafir". Never heard of adding a 'von'. :salute:

soopaman2

02-27-12, 06:39 PM

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.

Wow, yeah.:yeah:

But religion is a great control mechanism, especially when you can die for non adherence, and it is not an outrage, but simply the law.

Rape victims are blamed in the middle east.
Am I rascist for thinking that savage?
Honor killings?

I only wonder why these people have been living the same way they were when Muhammed led them 600 years ago...

It is because their religion allows no change. It is blasphemous to do so.

Say what you want about our pope through history, but they did apologize to Galileo for his inquisition and house arrest for his scientific theories.

Meanwhile in Muzzy land, they still stone to death rape victims in the name of honor.

Huh? Honor? Thats honorable?

Obviously a different moral system.

Yes they are animals, but they kinda owe us for hundreds of years of crusades...
(that we started in order to present an external enemy to keep our feudal fiefdoms together)

02-27-12, 06:40 PM

That's a strawman argument; I assigned no blame. The salient issue is that relations are not good between the western powers and the arabic states, and this is the reason that they don't like us and don't want to celebrate us.

Consider it as culture/values clash and incompatibility in general.
If it wasn't for economical issues you probably would not care...

Takeda Shingen

02-27-12, 06:42 PM

Consider it as culture/values clash and incompatibility in general.
If it wasn't for economical issues you probably would not care...

Me? I don't care now. As for the United States, you are right. Look at Africa; the US is content to sit back and let things go from bad to worse. If they had something that the US was interested in, my country would probably be over there instead.

_dgn_

02-27-12, 06:44 PM

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

AMGOT is a good proof of liberation of a country after Normandy invasion.

AMGOT ? Yes : "Allied Military Government of Occupied Territories".

Then ? These territories were occupied or liberated ?

soopaman2

02-27-12, 06:48 PM

Me? I don't care now. As for the United States, you are right. Look at Africa; the US is content to sit back and let things go from bad to worse. If they had something that the US was interested in, my country would probably be over there instead.

We already send endless aid over there to dictators. The last time we tried to intervene in something, they got great fodder for a movie (Blackhawk Down)

Africa deserves none of our attention, or anyones. They need to deal with thier own corruption.

I am sick of having to feed despots countries. Why should we help them? Why? Seriously? How can we benefit, they will only backstab us for the next muzzy holyman to come along.

We send food and monetary aid, and it goes right into the government coffers, and not to the people swatting flies off themselves.

My solution. Pork rations for muslim African countries, then they might start supporting themselves, instead of cursing their lifeline.

Takeda Shingen

02-27-12, 06:51 PM

We already send endless aid over there to dictators. The last time we tried to intervene in something, they got great fodder for a movie (Blackhawk Down)

Africa deserves none of our attention, or anyones. They need to deal with thier own corruption.

I am sick of having to feed despots countries. Why should we help them? Why? Seriously?

We send food and monetary aid, and it goes right into the government coffers, and not to the people swatting flies off themselves.

And yet, here we are in the Middle East, which shares all of the problems that you mentioned above. We have been embroiled in numerous 'Blackhawk Down' style incidents and have fought a series of needless wars along with several fruitless nation building endeavors. We send billions in financial and military aid into the Middle East to boot. Why deal with these dictators? Is the Karzai regime any less corrupt than the ones we see in Africa?

soopaman2

02-27-12, 06:54 PM

And yet, here we are in the Middle East, which shares all of the problems that you mentioned above. We have been embroiled in numerous 'Blackhawk Down' style incidents and have fought a series of needless wars along with several fruitless nation building endeavors. We send billions in financial and military aid into the Middle East to boot. Why deal with these dictators?

Yes sir, why?

I see no reason, America needs help too. The billions spent could feed our poor, rather than ostrasizing them for being poor, and not helping them out of poverty.

But the impoverished do not provide oil, and do nothing for the stock market...soooooo....

Tribesman

02-28-12, 02:39 AM

When the French start peeing on allied graves, then I will get upset.
When???????
Soopaman, don't you mean "on the occasions when some French people pissed on allied graves it made you upset, when they did graffiti all over them you got a bit angry and when they smashed them up you got really mad"...or were you just unaware of it?

Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini
Is that the Husseni who was chosen and appointed by the British as a religious/political leader despite being of a different sect than most of the locals and very politicly opposed to "official" British policy?
A strange and complicated tale of double talk and double dealing in a sort of colonial but not colonial affair of european power brokering and meddling in the middle east.
Or did you mean look but only sort of glance briefly at the surface of one aspect from one angle?

gimpy117

02-28-12, 05:32 PM

I couldn't agree more. 158 of my countrymen have died in this country and for what?

And oil pipeline and a stepping stone to Iraq.

oh, and a large helping of face saving.

Now on the subject of the qu'ran burning:
We should not be there it's time to go...especially when every little mistake we make gets reactions like this. However, Just because it was a mistake doesn't mean we don't have to apologize. Don't listen to the republicans who are running for office and will say ANYTHING they can to throw mud at Obama. They'll yammer on an on if they think they can get votes out of it. I just saw Neut on CNN, and he was in full on Obama attack/ buzzword mode saying thing like "Obama supports "infanticide"..." and "apologizing is a sign of weakness" and that makes me laugh. Were the USA we spend a mind boggling amount on defense, and are very powerful because of it. We don't have to be the muscly loud guy at the bar, we don't have anything to prove. We can be polite, but still be the guy nobody wants to mess with. To go even farther into this, I feel that this whole: "why should we apologize" is another political ploy IMO. It's to make the religious right happy, ignoring the whole idea set forth by JESUS saying "turn the other cheek" and taking an express train to spite muslim ville. Neut's whole argument of "well churches were burned in Muslim places" (paraphrasing) is farce. Since when do two wrongs make a right? It's okay to do anything to anybody so long as somebody has done it to us first? I guess japan has the green light to nuke everybody then....

soopaman2

02-28-12, 05:43 PM

When???????
Soopaman, don't you mean "on the occasions when some French people pissed on allied graves it made you upset, when they did graffiti all over them you got a bit angry and when they smashed them up you got really mad"...or were you just unaware of it?

My answer is unaware.

We will be there when we are done winning hearts and minds amongst the unwashed savages who just 20 years ago, stopped defacating in thier drinking water..

Do you prefer bombs, nukes, or a feel good hearts and minds operation, though the latter requires massive American lives, and 10 years worth of funding to mercenary corps, and munitions factories. (while social programs are cut at home)

War is a game to those who start it...But a reality to the rest.

Just ask my brother, oh wait, you can't...

But it's ok, someone got wealthy from it.

TLAM Strike

02-28-12, 06:15 PM

We will be there when we are done winning hearts and minds amongst the unwashed savages who just 20 years ago, stopped defacating in thier drinking water.

Yea they at least know where the toilets are, but not how to use them...

A few minutes before the beginning of a Greek mythology class at FOB Fenty, Jalalabad, for which I'd prepared to lecture on Alexander the Great's swift invasion but treacherous occupation of Afghanistan, my best student stomped into the classroom, slammed his M4 down on the table, and announced, "I can't take their **** anymore!"

After his classmates and I had calmed him down, he explained that the walls, stall door, and floor of the toilet he'd just used were smeared with feces. They were always smeared with feces, he complained. He was furious about being forced daily to use facilities that were, as he put it, "Inhumanely, barbarically unhygienic and filthy." He and his unit shared their toilet with the ANA, as they had been ordered to do by their commanding officers-"hearts and minds." And it was the custom of the ANA to wipe themselves with their hands, smear their excrement on the walls of the toilette, and rinse their hands in the sink, which left the sinks reeking, a reek made especially acrid and pungent by the Afghans' high intake of goat meat and goat milk. While brushing his teeth, my student often had to struggle to keep down his gorge.
As every anthropologist or mythographer knows, **** is the great leveler. It marks a psychic and cultural border. How a culture treats excrement, waste (all of that which it discards) speaks volumes about that culture.Link (http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/01/19/of_alexander_gods_and_bathrooms_why_the_afghans_ca n_t_get_their_****_together)
(note you will need to correct the **** in the URL, the first letter is S :O: )

You should read some of the official reports:

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/pdf/trust-incompatibility.pdf

Start on Pg 41. :doh: The quotes from the troops in the field start around Pg 63 :o

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/pdf/trust-incompatibility.pdf

Kongo Otto

02-28-12, 06:23 PM

Seems that where ever else Allied troops bled in the war democratic nations sprung up (the Philippines, France, Netherlands, Germany, India), except for the ME. :hmmm:

Aah it's completely new to me that Uncle Joes Troops (after all they were part of the Allied Troops) spread out democracy in the European Countries they "liberated".
Otherwise your statement also indicates the French and the Dutch did not had Democratic Governments and weren't Democratic Nations before beeing invaded by German Troops in 1940?

Is such nonsense nowadays teached in US Schools? :nope:

TLAM Strike

02-28-12, 06:55 PM

Aah it's completely new to me that Uncle Joes Troops (after all they were part of the Allied Troops) spread out democracy in the European Countries they "liberated".
Otherwise your statement also indicates the French and the Dutch did not had Democratic Governments and weren't Democratic Nations before beeing invaded by German Troops in 1940?

Is such nonsense nowadays teached in US Schools? :nope:

I specific did not mention any nations "liberated" by our Soviet "Allies".

I personally prefer the term Co-Belligerent or COMINTERN forces when referring to the Soviets. I think Frenemy is the 'hip' term to use.

Although it should be noted after the fall of the USSR most/all the countries "liberated" by Soviet forces in the war became democratic. (except for Belarus which was not even a country then.) The US and its NATO allies played no small part in causing the collapse of that Empire. So when any totalitarian force is removed from power by "Western" powers democracies spring up (slowly some times but they do)... except in the ME.

Tribesman

02-28-12, 07:12 PM

Kongo, perhaps you should also note the whole pile of non ME countries that didn't transform to democracies, you could even go on about the pile of dictators western allies installed or supported in "liberated" countries, you don't even have to go into the "allies that were dictatorships" sector.

My answer is unaware.
I thought you might be, however it was mentioned on the first page of this topic.

02-28-12, 07:41 PM

Actually if i remember well.. Roosevelt's philosophy was anti colonial and as a part of a dealing with the allies it was decided that all colonies liberated should have a right to self determination in post war era.
In some places it had to take longer than in others but it was decided that British and French would have to give up their colonies.
It was partly humanitarian philosophy and partly economical one where Roosevelt thought that more overall wealth would come from free trade rather than simple exploitation of others.
ME had no cultural basis for democracy to exist and some dictators had been the only viable option and while others had been very popular as well.
Lets take non ME example.. Cuba...Castro was a popular dictator but still dictator ..oh well...he did not deal with USA but this belongs to cold war struggle.

Tribesman

02-28-12, 08:33 PM

Lets take non ME example.. Cuba...
Strange choice.
Cuba declared war on the axis so was a member of the allies and wasn't occupied by the axis or liberated from them.
Though their 1930s dictator who later became their 1950s dictator did say he wanted the allies to attack the Spanish dictator as well as the German and Italian ones.

02-28-12, 09:07 PM

Strange choice.
Cuba declared war on the axis so was a member of the allies and wasn't occupied by the axis or liberated from them.
Though their 1930s dictator who later became their 1950s dictator did say he wanted the allies to attack the Spanish dictator as well as the German and Italian ones.

Just a guy with curiously different image but still dictator:haha:

Tribesman

02-29-12, 03:04 AM

@TLAM thank you for posting the links.
It strikes me as its hitting on the problems to avoid which the military had already clearly identified before the invasion of Afghanistan..... which raises the question of what the bloody hell are the military playing at?

disclaimer...I was not in the Stan man so I don't know nuffin bout nuffin and had better shut the heck up as I don't walk that funny way which is clearly a requirement for saying anything.

_dgn_

03-01-12, 05:23 PM

Aah it's completely new to me that Uncle Joes Troops (after all they were part of the Allied Troops) spread out democracy in the European Countries they "liberated".

Some historical backgrounds on this particular point.

So, in 1939, there was a dictatorship in :

- Poland (leader : Colonel Beck)
- Latvia (leader : Ulmanis)
- Lithuania (leader : Smetona)
- Hungary (leader : Admiral Horthy)
- Romania (leader : King Carol II, then General Antonescu)
- Slovakia (leader : Jozef Tiso)
- Bulgaria (leader : Tsar Boris III)
- Greece (leader : Colonel Metaxas)

In 1944, USSR "liberated":

- Poland (already "liberated" in 1939, remember Katyn)
- Latvia (already "liberated" in 1940, with a large deportation of people to Siberia)
- Lithuania (already "liberated" in 1940, same "liberation" than in Latvia)
- Hungary
- Romania
- Slovakia
- Bulgaria

.... and gave to these "fascist" countries a "deserved" "democracy". At least, its Bolshevik version !

But Stalin failed with Greece (out of his "liberation" area, even if communist ELAS tried to conquer power with the same intention).

Skybird

03-01-12, 05:31 PM

Meanwhile, on a sidenote:

German businessmen unwelcome in postwar Libya (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-818336,00.html)

Interesting experiences that should not be a surprise, and an illustration of how some Westerners - these two Germans for exyample - still have very strange, messianic illusions about what the Libyans want and understand as "freedom" and "liberty".

Schnaars landed in Benghazi an hour ago and has just finished meeting with the airport's new director. It was a short conversation, with not even enough time for the coffee he had expected to be served. The director, who returned to Libya from exile during the civil war, had cut the meeting short after apologizing profusely, saying that he unfortunately had another appointment.
Schnaars was annoyed. He stood up reluctantly, took his briefcase and made his way to the door. It opened, and a delegation of well-dressed Frenchmen walked in, some wearing sunglasses. They saw a stocky German who hadn't had enough sleep and was standing there in his shirtsleeves without a jacket. A few of the Frenchmen grinned. One wished Schnaars "good business" as he walked by.
Schnaars was served his coffee, but it was in the waiting room, where he could hear his Libyan host enthusiastically greeting the French delegation through the closed door.
:D

Tribesman

03-01-12, 07:40 PM

Interesting experiences that should not be a surprise, and an illustration of how some Westerners - these two Germans for exyample - still have very strange, messianic illusions about what the Libyans want and understand as "freedom" and "liberty".

So a bloke who was doing business with Daffy for years and whose friends opposed the rebels are not getting deals with a new Libyan bloke who came back from exile in France with French backing because the deals are going to the French:yawn:

_dgn_

03-02-12, 04:09 PM

So a bloke who was doing business with Daffy for years and whose friends opposed the rebels are not getting deals with a new Libyan bloke who came back from exile in France with French backing because the deals are going to the French:yawn:

After victory, the country, which destroyed infrastructures of his enemy (in order to win) deals with their rebuilding.

The war is mainly paid by the citizens (with their contributions, and sometimes with their blood). And reconstruction too (with their contributions).

But peace profits mainly to some quite selected companies.

About Irak, the "winners"were Halliburton and Bechtel (... and DynCorp).

About Lybia, the "winners"will be Vinci and Total (... and Alcatel-Lucent).

Always "The Blood of Oil", as General Gallois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Marie_Gallois) said ...

TLAM Strike

03-02-12, 04:19 PM

Video... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54c_1330621949) :nope:

Jimbuna

03-02-12, 04:25 PM

How very noble of those brave and fearless warriors :nope:

Skybird

03-02-12, 04:53 PM

Spit.

At the same time, in Europe especially the Protestant chruch sells churches it can no longer fill, and some of them are beign turned into mosques - which from Islam's perspective is an expression of submission and defeat, inviting it to push for more.

But now imagine, just imagine for a moment it would happen the other way around. Islamc claism that every piece of soil that was ever touched by it, is it'S own, forever until the end of time. And then somebody would desecreate a Muslim cemetary inEurope, or even commit an act claimed to be offensive! Collective, murderous hysteria all arouind! Around the world flags would burn, people would burn, crowds would march in the streets, Western nations would be condemned politicians would feel pressed to assure how sorry they are and that Islam is oh so good a friend and so precious and noble and neighbours and friendship and wonderful and peace and tolerance and multiculti...

From the perspectove back then the German were rightfully attacked to have refused to fight with The French and British in Libya and siding with Russia and China. The German motives were completely isled and wrong, the decision by Westerwelle based on false (idiotic) arguments. But when I see how things have gone in Libya since Gaddafhi is dead and the real nature of the former "opposition", an d now behaviour like this, and the way they torture African foreigners over mere, unproven suspicions of that they foguht for Libya (where it is quite obvious in most cases the the persons in question did not and were just guest workers), then I must conclude that without wanting it and without having known it for the real reasons, the Germans nevertheless probably made the right decision to stay out of that mess-in-a-dark-hole.

Say about the Chinese what they want, but they already were around for a thousand and more years when Rome was born, and when Rome died a thousand years later, they still were there, and another thousand years later they took a short nap, and now they come back once again. And they have learned to follow a policy of strictly staying out of internal conflicts of other people and states.

Since some years we have been witnessing many reasons why we should start to see the wisdom in that.

Tribesman

03-02-12, 05:46 PM

Video... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54c_1330621949)
Absolute scum.

But now imagine, just imagine for a moment it would happen the other way around
You mean like imagine some cathedrals in spain that used to be mosques....nah can't imagine that ever happening at all :doh:

_dgn_

03-02-12, 06:17 PM

You mean like imagine some cathedrals in spain that used to be mosques....nah can't imagine that ever happening at all :doh:

It already happened. But after the "Reconquista", mosques became again churches and cathedrals.

For how long still ???

Tribesman

03-02-12, 07:56 PM

It already happened.
Really, wow , you had better tell Skybird :rotfl2:

For how long still ???
Well its been a thousand years so far down there hasn't it, do you think it will suddenly change by next tuesday perhaps?

HunterICX

03-03-12, 05:58 AM

Well its been a thousand years so far down there hasn't it, do you think it will suddenly change by next tuesday perhaps?

It better happen after the Siesta though.

HunterICX

_dgn_

03-03-12, 09:05 AM

Well its been a thousand years so far down there hasn't it, do you think it will suddenly change by next tuesday perhaps?

A thousand years ?

Not exactly. Last part of occupied Spain was liberated (or reconquered) circa 1492. Greece was liberated in 1830 (after 500 years of Turkish occupation). Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania, only in 1878.

Armenians were definitively liberated by Turkey in 1915.

Next tuesday ?

Not exactly. Muslims needed only 5 years (711 to 716) to occupy territories of the current Spain and Portugal. But they couldn't go further in north (blocked in 732 at Poitiers, a French town).

But a difference : Muslims don't need now to conquer churches, because they are welcomed by irresponsable people and some such religious buildings (as said by Skybird) are given or sold to them.

A another (large) difference : Muslims are already present and numerous in whole Europe (England, Sweden, France, Germany, Italia ...). And some European irresponsable politicians want that Turkey (now leaded by a practically fundamentalist Prime Minister) enter EU !!!

Difficult to stop them now in a small town in the south of France ...

And this process will accelerate : bad (but republican, then not religious) dictators in Muslim countries (Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Irak) prevented the progression of fundamentalism and its intention to re-conquer Europe. Some of them (Tunisia, Lybia) prevented the arrival of a great multitude of Muslims in Europe.

Still an effort and the last "Muslim but republican" dictator in the area (Bashar al-Assad) will be disappear.

Next tuesday ?

No, rather tomorrow ...

Tribesman

03-03-12, 01:00 PM

A thousand years ?

Yes, a thousand years.

Not exactly.
You mean this "imaginary" future thing Sky wants people to worry about has actually continued during the past thousand years.:doh:
Blimey, mosques have been turned into churches and it didn't make a global caliphate of the fundy nutty flavour

Not exactly.
What exactly?
If you are wishing to respond to a point address the point.

But a difference
What difference in relation to the point?

A another (large) difference
The point?

Difficult to stop them now
O'Reilly?
First you need to establish what on earth it is you are trying to stop as at the moment it looks just like scaremongering paranoia a la Skystyle

And this process will accelerate
Proof?

Still an effort and the last "Muslim but republican" dictator in the area (Bashar al-Assad) will be disappear.

Don't you mean Alawite Ba'athist not muslim republican

No, rather tomorrow ...
Is that chicken little or asterix?