Scary US Debt facts

[GoldenRivet]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/12-scary-debt-facts-for-2012.html

[nikimcbee]

Good, it's a CBS story, hosted by yahoo.:hmmm: (not a yahoo original)

[STEED]

Don't worry JP Morgan & Goldman Sachs will save America. :03:

[Ducimus]

We need an Andrew Jackson.

[Tribesman]

We need an Andrew Jackson.

you were not in the turn of the century so you can't comment as you didn't walk the walk into the 1800s so don't know nothing about it:salute:

[nikimcbee]

Don't worry, we can ask Unlce Hu for more money or Tante Merkel.

[Oberon]

Don't worry, we can ask Unlce Hu for more money or Tante Merkel.

Not for much longer you can't, Uncle Hu retires this year, you're going to have to get used to Uncle Xi. :yep:

[STEED]

Don't worry, we can ask Unlce Hu for more money or Tante Merkel.

Germany is back with a new warlord...

http://joe.ie/uploads/story/20767/20767-large.jpg

Not going down well in Greece. :arrgh!:

[em2nought]

Heads should roll and I don't mean figuratively :rotfl2:

[nikimcbee]

Not for much longer you can't, Uncle Hu retires this year, you're going to have to get used to Uncle Xi. :yep:

So do you have some quid to spare? Unka Oberon?
http://images.wikia.com/disney/images/2/21/908000-paperone_large.jpg

[vienna]

Heads should roll and I don't mean figuratively :rotfl2:

A big fan of Madame Defarge by any chance?... :D

[Ducimus]

Yup, time to put the ignorant, arrogant, do nothing, asshat on the ignorelist. Ta ta trollmeister. I fart in your general direction. There is nothing you could possibly say that would have been worth reading anyway. A gum stain on the sidewalk is taller then you.

[soopaman2]

Don't worry JP Morgan & Goldman Sachs will save America. :03:


Don't worry our shill congress and house will use taxpayer money to help Goldman and JP save America.

Fixed.

Then they will foreclose on your house, and outsource your job. True patriots! True gratitude.

[STEED]

Don't worry our shill congress and house will use taxpayer money to help Goldman and JP save America.

Fixed.

Then they will foreclose on your house, and outsource your job. True patriots! True gratitude.

Are you saying Jamie Diamond is out to become the world president?

[Ducimus]

Then they will foreclose on your house, and outsource your job. True patriots! True gratitude.

Wife and I have been looking for a house lately. 99% of the houses on the market in our area, are short sales. Lots of people upside down or getting forclosed on.

[nikimcbee]

Wife and I have been looking for a house lately. 99% of the houses on the market in our area, are short sales. Lots of people upside down or getting forclosed on.

You should have been there before IMFlash opened up. My friend said housing prices doubled when they opened for business.:o

You could also do the west side of Ut Valley.:hmmm::haha:

[nikimcbee]

Don't worry our shill congress and house will use taxpayer money to help Goldman and JP save America.

Fixed.

Then they will foreclose on your house, and outsource your job. True patriots! True gratitude.

Somebody's got to pay for Michelle's hollidays.

[Tribesman]

Yup, time to put the ignorant, arrogant, do nothing, asshat on the ignorelist. Ta ta trollmeister. I fart in your general direction. There is nothing you could possibly say that would have been worth reading anyway. A gum stain on the sidewalk is taller then you.

:har::har::har::har::har::har:I am devestated.

Pity that ducimus own "logic" is actually so ludicrous it can be used as a joke in any topic and carries exactly the same weight as it has when he uses it seriously.

But hey as insults go that little attempt by the pathetic mr "I walked the walk" really is so lame you could almost feel pity for him.
gum stains eh:woot:
at least he could have used a bit more of the python bit and included a hamster reference:O:

[joegrundman]

Germany is back with a new warlord...

http://joe.ie/uploads/story/20767/20767-large.jpg

Not going down well in Greece. :arrgh!:

yeah, i'm sure this is exactly the sort of approach that makes the German taxpayer want to give his or her money to the "we retire early and collect no taxes but pay everyone from the public purse" Greeks

[Schroeder]

yeah, i'm sure this is exactly the sort of approach that makes the German taxpayer want to give his or her money to the "we retire early and collect no taxes but pay everyone from the public purse" Greeks
You bet it does.:damn:

[Tribesman]

yeah, i'm sure this is exactly the sort of approach that makes the German taxpayer want to give his or her money
I had a german round this evening, her view was 'can't the greeks come up with anything better than nazi comparisons if they want to moan about taking the money'.
It tied in nicely with a joke on todays news about a french idiot getting in trouble for saying nice things about the nazis.

[JU_88]

Don't worry JP Morgan & Goldman Sachs will save America. :03:
Lol Steed :haha:

But seriously and unfortunatly for all of us, the U.S Goverment defaulting is pretty much a mathmatical certainty now.
You cannot indefinately sustain an economy that is based around debt.
The debt model is either designed with zero forsight (incompetance) or its just designed to fail (conspiricy)- take your pick but neither option is pretty.
2008 was meant to be our 1930, but the bailouts postponed it for few years. Now our goverments are holding off the next crisis by printing money (QE) its pretty obvious that it wont end well.

[Skybird]

Greece.

Wrote some lines, and deleted them. Would have gotten me brigg time if I had not.

But I would say I am representative for the German majority opinion.

[STEED]

Lol sure they will...:haha:
Unfortunatly for the the US entire world, the U.S Goverment defaulting is pretty much a mathmatical certainty. :nope:

PLAN-B

Liquidate the Banks. :arrgh!:

[Torplexed]

It's becoming painfully clear that the only option for Greece is indeed default, and even the elite, the "wizards of smart", are realizing that. Debt slavery is not to going to work, and Greece will probably be destroyed in some violent revolution if they keep it up (which will be an even worse default, of course). But if they do default, then that will trigger a cascade of other panics and failures. So, they're busy trying to figure out something (including selling your first born, law and ethics and everything else be damned) to ringfence it off.

[JU_88]

Greece could still be the spark, but everyone has had a fair bit of time now to address their exposure to Greece.
Im worried for the Day that US Fed can no longer pay its bills. The Dollar is still the worlds reserve currency, if that goes down, the entire house of cards comes down!
It will be biggest Global deppression in history, (A once in a life time event so they say)

[soopaman2]

Greece could still be the spark, but everyone has had a fair bit of time now to address their exposure to Greece.
Im worried for the Day that US Fed can no longer pay its bills. The Dollar is still the worlds reserve currency, if that goes down, the entire house of cards comes down!
It will be biggest Global deppression in history, (A once in a life time event so they say)


I have always seen what could be construed as a doomsday prophecy with this whole thing. It runs parallel to your statement.

I believe that the PIIGS are simply just a symptom of the larger disease. Which is reliance on the financial sector, which schemes to make money, rather than offering a tangible product.

Unless you consider wealth tangible. Is it worth to gain at the expense of the weaker members of your country?

Dumb question, of course it is, screw you, I already got what I need. I could care less if you have the same chance.
Money is made up, pretend, fiat currency, we primally fight over something that is abstract, silly no?

It rules us because it rules the elites, we allow to elites to rule us.

I miss guys like George Washington and Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.
Who all understood that power is more a disease than a blessing.

Both saved their countries.

Both went back to thier farms after being offered Dictator/ King titles.

2 different eras, good or bad men never change throughout history. I do not think grace like this is gone, just that grace like this is not financially supported today.

I always thought the Mayan 2012 was bullcrap, but I almost wish it. I lost all faith in mankind lately.

We need a culling.


Anyway, yeah I know you think America sucks, but just watch what happens if we fall, you think WW2 was a doozy?

Remember how undefended your euro shangrilas are compared to the Chinese and Russians.

[mapuc]

During this week I saw a few minutes of the financial news on danish tv(TV2News) and this expert made it clear why EU and others is doing everything they can to prevent Greece to collapse economically, 'cause if they do the will be, as other wrote, be a cascade.

If Greece collapse, Italy, Portugal and spain will surely follow.

Markus

[JU_88]

Anyway, yeah I know you think America sucks, but just watch what happens if we fall, you think WW2 was a doozy?

Remember how undefended your euro shangrilas are compared to the Chinese and Russians.

I think America is badly run compared to how it used to be, I do not think 'America sucks' any more than britain sucks!
Say whatever you like about Britain and EU, I dont care - as I dont do all thats nationalism BS :O:.

[Skybird]

During this week I saw a few minutes of the financial news on danish tv(TV2News) and this expert made it clear why EU and others is doing everything they can to prevent Greece to collapse economically, 'cause if they do the will be, as other wrote, be a cascade.

If Greece collapse, Italy, Portugal and spain will surely follow.

Markus
I wonder where this logic is coming from: that if Greece is being eternally payed for (let'S be honest, that what is is about, and that'S why they wanted to join the Euro at all costs) and does not go bancrupt while essentially it surely is bancrupt, other countries will then not go bancrupt while essentially being bancrupt.

...?????

It is no logic in there, just a simple demand: some others should have to pay for these failing countries, forever, unlimited, unconditionally.

Like there is no logic in claiming that pressing for more EU integration - the main reason why we have the Euro and why these countries now economically (since they cannot freely adjust there currencies) are unable to solve and overcome the crisis that this integration so far has caused. That is anti-intellectual stubborness to press through an ideologic agenda of "no nations - one Eurocratic regime": an old, very old fight in Brussels over accumulating more power in the hand of some who so desperately want it. Mainly left European forces, and Germany - due to its complex over irreparable guilt - started this movement

The EU negotiations over Greece are not really about Greece anymore. They are about the question who is in power in the EU - those many countries who demanded to be fed and bailed out and maintained and payed for by the few, or those few expected to endlessly pay for the majority, ruining themselves over that task more and more by drowning in debts themselves while paying for the others. The poor debtors are the majority, which says a lot about the credibility and power of the EU.

Greece must leave. And to be honest: the Euro must go. And if I would have one wish free: blast the EU. And the chances that the Euro will fail, are growing. It is not the first attempt of a currency union in Europe. There were several. In the end, most of them failed, sometimes with very bad consequences.

Germany is in the same situation in Europe, like America in the world. Like America was needed as a political and military player and for right this military strength was dispised so much, Germany is needed in Europe, and is despised for its financial status. However, America'S military limits have been shown in the past ten years, and Germany's financial limits are simply ignored. The country is much more dangerously closer to a financial abyss deriving from future financial obligations, than many Germans or Eurocrats want to see. If you plan for very long term financial investements in German papers, think twice.

Germans are pissed, totally pissed by the Greek. Not so much because of the constant lies and betrayals and paying for this mess, this is what we have learned to expect, but because of the totally reality-disconnected arrogance and haughtiness that has been shown by Greek politicians in the past days, and by some media, and by Greek politicians at the EU since months. Simple truth is: the German people for the most simply do not care for Greece anymore. Not one bit. Let it sink in the Aegean, its rotting monuments of a past almost 100 generations ago are so terribly old anyway. To live in the shine of something so terribly old and terribly dead maybe is what is paralysing all Greek attempts to form a nation since the Ancient times. But already in the Ancient Greek era, their city states were plagued by massive corruption, failure, and political self-destruction. Many commentators ask whether a functional Greek state indeed has ever existed. To me, it is a dysfunctional societytoday, on the basis of depending on the framework of what essentially is a failed state.

What that means, is simple. It means Greece must start from scratch, and make a more radical break with its paralysing past than maybe any other modern European nation had in modern time, including Germany after WWII. As long as the Greek people do not understand this and always bore the rest of Europe with their claims over Greek honour and Greek pride (honour - based on betrayal and lies and dependency? Being proud on - what?) and Greek history and all this now meaningless history stuff - may it be olympia, may it be philosophy (both of which no modern Greek can claim any inch or credit for, since he contributed nothing to that past, absolutely nothing) - while at the same time they accuse those who already have payed hundreds of billions over their the Greek'S failures and ignorrant acts of denial, as long as the Greek people do not understand this and get ready to start in this manner even if it costs them big sacrifices and efforts, I am not willing to lend them any hand of assistance anymore. And then there is economic compettiveness. This prevents a place like Greece to be part of a multinational currency union. A bigger part of the Greek pay their taxes - if they pay them - in agricultural products until today, and they even cannot export their olive oil without being subsidiesed by the EU. Pardon? When was the last time you bought something different than olive oil which had a writing on it saying "made in Greece"? And regarding their oils, even many of their "home-manufactured" olive oils, are pressed from foreign olives now.

These reminders are not meant as mockery. It is meant to show that such a non-economy cannot be part of a currency union without going crash-diving.

Something tells me that they will fail to understand this, and will continue to make the rest of Europe responsible for their own wrongs, because they have had Oh! Olympia and Hey! Plato and Wowh! Alexander. But I say: Plato is dead, Olympia is in ruins, Alexander got eaten up by Rome, so save us from your laments and pathetic claims of honour and pride and get your damn parasitic ar$e moving - or leave the EU. But I guess it will stay as it is as long as no foreign supervising regime that takes over total control is being installed. The Greek, imo, are unable to successfully govern themselves and erect a functional state administration. And even such a foreign regime will find it tricky to be successful, and probably would fail. And haven'T they buiold that reputation over the past 2 millenia? Already the Romans were both mocking and cursing about it, and so just made opportunistic use of the individual Greek's talent.

A Greek man that I know, a loose friend of my parents, told me last week this, we had discussed the absurdity of the debt crisis but that Greece nevertheless increases its military like crazy and buys submarines and tanks, and he asked: "Why do we have such a big and costly army? It's true what you said, we indeed have more heavy combat tanks than anyone else in Europe. But why should anyone with a sane mind want to invade and conquer us? I mean what he would get for his victory, is us!"

Said a Greek.

[Oberon]

I think Greece is too far gone, you're not going to get much more out of it than you've got. You really need to start building that firewall around it now for when it inevitably collapses...probably around about the time Hollande wins the French elections...

[joegrundman]

I have the feeling that anyway modern greece owes more to its thousand years as a turkish province than to the greece of classical antiquity, or for that matter the homeric greeks of the bronze age.

not that most greeks would agree to such a statement, but one does. Georges Prevelakis, professor of geopolitics at the Sorbonne writes this interesting article

http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2011-12-23-prevelakis-en.html

i'm sure you'll enjoy it sky!

[joegrundman]

just noticed - this thread seems to be something of a unique phenomenon. It started with a distinctly US oriented theme and got derailed onto a (more pressing) topic unrelated to the US.

Surely there's a rule somewhere to the effect that thread derailment must be toward the USA

[Skybird]

just noticed - this thread seems to be something of a unique phenomenon. It started with a distinctly US oriented theme and got derailed onto a (more pressing) topic unrelated to the US.

That is not unique, but that is the rule of common practice here at subsim. :D I occasionally even excel in hijacking my own threads! :88)

[mapuc]

Skybird, I have red your statement about my input about Greece and it economically problems.

I'm not an expert on the economy, I can barely make my own household made economy.

I have tried to follow the financial development on danish and swedish news on tv and in newspapers.

I agree with you- let Greece collapse.

Markus

[Torplexed]

And here's another Germany really wants Greece to default out of Europe story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...-the-euro.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9091021/Germany-drawing-up-plans-for-Greece-to-leave-the-euro.html)

Note he mentions rumors on Wall Street of default around March 20, when a big debt payment is due. The 23rd is the Friday of that week.

[Skybird]

Nobody wants to trash the Greek people, and it is not as if I am not aware of the existential dispair and fear many individual people face. But feeling pity or paying them more and more tranches of aid, will not solve anything - never.

The Greek need to stop talking of their pride and honour, but must wake up to the truth that they lived beyond their means and that almost every citizen, since years and decades, silently has tolerated, supported and benefitted of the corrupt and administrationally ineffective system that now holds Greece in its claws. Seen that way, many private people thnat see themselves as victims exclusively, to me are sharing their share of responsibility. They rally and demonstrate now. But the mess of the system was known to them since so very many years. Why haven'T they ralied in the streets and demonstrated in the past years - against the system and their corrupt "elites"? Becaue they choose to made their own private deal with the system - a little share of private paradise for the silent acceptance and arranging oneself with it. Just the young children are really innocent here.

They miust stop making others repsoijsble for what they have messed up all themselves. They must stop expecting others to necessarily come up for their living, their debts, their wishes, and so on.

Greece must leave the Euro.

There economic respources are extremely rare and intenrationally not competitive. They must learn to live by means allowed by this potential, but low income, and then must focus - in a process possibly covering 15-30 years or more - to slowly, evolutionally GROW towards (not revolutionary airdrop into) a future state that assimilates modern productivity standards.

Europe, on the other hand, can help first by something like an aid operation like is often being done for disastzer areas. Delivery of foods, energy, shelter, distributed by tickets citizens can sign in for. This - but no money transfers. We should have undertstood in and out by now that we cannot trsust in giving them money to Grfeece is being used for good purpose, and will not end up in dark channels and corruption. Food stamps may be against this thing called Greek pride again, but who cares. We do not trust Greeks being able to handle money, so we do it this way. Either they accept and eat food, or the do not accept and live of their pride. I am pragmatic. I see no perosnal satisfaction in ducking them. If they feel ducked nevertheless, so be it, its not my concern.

When the supply of the most common needs is being organised, basic adminsitration structure controlled by foreign authorities should be established. We canot trust the Greeks' own structures, they are a waste of time, and totally corrupt, blown up, and incompetent, also breathing the odem of total corruption seen as part of daily living, of everyday culture. The Greek should have the right to reject this, but then we do not do anythign more than delivering basic supplies needed for elemental survival. If they however accept the building of ne structure under more competent sovereignity than there own, we could - in the long run - aim at establishing something like an economical Marshal Plan, assessing the resources and potential that are there, however sparse they may be, and then trying to establish economic and business structures using these resources for best result.

Before this, the known fleeing of rich Greeks who have brought their enormous wealth into safety outside the country, miust be researched, and especially where criminal energy was involved, such prtoperty should be secured and spend ont he rebuilkding of Greece. It is unacceptable that froeign tax payers are expected to invets into Greek aid, but the Greek elites themselves hide their treasuries and avoid paying for their own country of which - proud Greek that they claim to be - they are so extremly proud. First and foremeost, the Greek havwe to pay for the rebuilding themselves - not foreign taxpayers. Us foreign taxpayers OWN NOTHING to the GREEK, let this message be heared in Greece, finally.

In principle, we talk about nation building, nothing else. Like it is being tried, to varying success, on the balkans, and in Afghanistan, and some other palces. They must start at nill. The advanatge they have over the Blank and Afghanistan is that they have no ethnic violence, and no war history. But for the moment, Grece is a third world country, a bana republic, a failed state. And as such it must be dealt with when there shall be any hope of restructuring it. And the Greek - must swealow their damn pride. It stands in their own way. If they cannot do that, then to hell with them.

Europe could help - but only at these conditions which I consider to be non-negotiable. It is these rules - or no match alltogether.

The whole effort will last decades. It must necessarily include a fundamental re-education of the Greek people, to immunise them against the corruption that has costed them so dearly because for so long in history they have been so wlecoming towards it. I consider this need of reeducation comparable to the socalled Denazification that was planned and implemented for the German soceity after the collpase of the Third Reich. Greece does not need a return to its old historic ideals that it has lied itself about for so long a time, missing reality and missing the porswent while dreaming past, dead, glorious dreams. Greece must be reinvented - from the outside.

Anbother chance I do not see. A chance, I say. Even if following this plan above, I do not say that it guarantees success. As I see it, it just is this: the best chance they have. And again, I do not think in years. I think in DECADES. One or two generations at least. Old habits die slowly, and if the habit is shared by a whole people, then a whole generation needs to die before the habit can maybe die as well.

---

Considering the enormous debts in Western nations, a masisve re-education will be needed in other coutnries, inclduing Germany, as well, because we all are threatened by total collapse. Our economic thinking and models have failed, our living styles - so very wasteful of resources - have costed us and others dearly. The ideology of constant, unlimited growth cannot be suppported by argument anymore, it has been proven wrong. We need to prepare so that we can make an evolutijnary jump from an economy based of unlimited growth as an ideal that finances every material excess we crave for, towards an econoym based on the focussing on moderate consummation, and self-sustaining resource and money management. "Nachhaltigkeit" (=sustainability?) must become the new credo, a balanced dynamic stability of factors. We also need to understand that we are no longer the rich that our culture has learned over centuries to see itself as. We WERE rich. But today, we are poorer, at least much poorer than before. We drown in debts, we live on tic. we need to reduce our material demands and learn to do with what we actually have - in black numbers, not in form of an endless chain of credit cards. That is true for states, but also true for many individuals.

[Oberon]

That's quite a drastic move Sky, but I fear one that is necessary. Either that or Greece is quarantined until a time it is able to support itself through whatever means it deems necessary up to and including an authoritarian police state. However both solutions would be too radical for the general public and, indeed, the politicians of Europe...and most of the world, to take, and thus more water is going to be thrown into the sieve until the inevitable.
I'm beginning to wonder at this stage whether Greece would be better off outside the Euro, then it could default on its loans, and start again from scratch in a manner seen in post-WWI Germany.

[yubba]

I say let them swirl, maybe it will wake up the american people and put a end to this crap, back away from the lunch bag, there's nothing to see here.

[Tribesman]

I'm beginning to wonder at this stage whether Greece would be better off outside the Euro, then it could default on its loans, and start again from scratch in a manner seen in post-WWI Germany
The only problem there is that you have to look at the fools who have made those loans.
Can europes big 2 manage with their bankers taking such a hit?

[Skybird]

That's quite a drastic move Sky, but I fear one that is necessary. Either that or Greece is quarantined until a time it is able to support itself through whatever means it deems necessary up to and including an authoritarian police state. However both solutions would be too radical for the general public and, indeed, the politicians of Europe...and most of the world, to take, and thus more water is going to be thrown into the sieve until the inevitable.
I'm beginning to wonder at this stage whether Greece would be better off outside the Euro, then it could default on its loans, and start again from scratch in a manner seen in post-WWI Germany.

Can something that is adequate for a given situation really be described as "drastic", when in fact it is needed and adequate? Well, maybe, but somehow it feels wrong.

German media today just have published another leaked internal paper by the German economy ministry, about their outlook for reforms in Greece, and they - once again - conclude a total and unlimited unability for reforming in Greek state structures, administration, ministries and government. What is even worse is that they - again conclude - that there even is a total desinterest in wanting to reform.

Wasting more financial aid into such a bottomless black hole? Now Some Greek can attack me, when our finance minister called Greeek just this: a bottom less black hole, their 82 year old grandfather of the nation lectured him on pride and honour of the Greek once again, and two days ago a former Greek foreign minister had nothign better to do than to lectuzre Germany about the need to pay respect to the pride and honour of Greeks.

If thgey have no nother problems burning under their nails, then the situation cannot be that bad.

Or their political establishement still is deadlocked in a state of total denial of reality. To be honest, I think the Greeks must chase their establishement and politicians in the streets and hang them on lightmasts and telephone poles before they really could have a realistic chance to ever improve. These politicians have not understood anything, and they will never learn anything, and they still play their power-calculating party games. If somebody wants to tell me that they are wanting what is in the healthy interest of the country, i'll burst in laughter. They want to keep the status quo, and get payed for that by European tax payers in other countries.

Kick them out. No cent should be given to Greece anymore before they have not brought down these zombies. Thats why I say to give them aid only in non-financial goods that get distributed by need and stamps - and independent from Greek administration. The Greek government and state administration is the biggest enemy of everybody in this collpase. When you give them items to distribute them amoingts bthe needed, incomoetence will delay it, and a good share will disappear in dark channels of corruption once again. It all must be controlled from the outside, therefore.

In orinciple, Greek must be seen as a long-termed protectorate. The goal should be to put it back on its wheels (if it ever wa slike that), but as I said - that is a project for 1-2 generations.

[STEED]

The Greek patient is dead, time to take Greece off the life support machine.

Other country's went bust and bounced back, granted not a country with a bloody EU millstone around its neck but never the less Greece must withdraw from the Euro and EU.

[nikimcbee]

I'm not an EU expert, could the EU kick Greece out? (before it drags the whole thing down)

[Skybird]

I'm not an EU expert, could the EU kick Greece out? (before it drags the whole thing down)

By legal rules and treaties, the EU cannot ban/kick out any member state.

By legal rules and treaties, a member of the Euro-union also cannot be banned/kicked out by the others.

Mind you, EU and euro currency union are two different things/bodies. Not all EU members are currency union members, as David Cameron just has learned himself the hard way. :D

Voluntary withdrawel from the EU theoretically is possible, but the formulation of the according treaty passages imply that the others and the EU commission must find the conditions and terms acceptable by which the leave is being undertaken. Critics point out that this opens a whole Pandora'S box of possibilities to delay talks and negotiations between the nation wanting to leave and the EU commission, to move the final leaving to the end of all time. In other words, while theoretically the option is there to voluntarily leave the EU, the devil lies in the juristic details and the EU can delay negotations over many years. Also, all other EU members must find the terms acceptable. Your "voluntary" leave thus becomes highly unlikely.

Voluntary withdrawel from the currency union in principle is possible, as far as I remember.

Mind you, Eurocrats are so megalomaniac and self-convinced that they still cannot even imagine why anyone should ever want to leave their shining, glorious wonderful superclub. They still see the EU as the shining example that saves the world and attracts all manklind and necessarily all human being must desperately crave to become members of something that is so fan-tas-tic and won-der-ful.

What it comes down to by the end of the day is that the vast majority of members and wannabe-members simply hope to get more cash from membership than they have to pay in in the first.

And that is all. Cultural identity and common shared views and values, have little to do with it.

While this sounds negative, it maybe will become a factor of a developement that sooner or laters frees us from this EU again. This could happen when the financial desires and promises not beinf delivered on, collapse. The Fins in the North cannot bake his bread by ideals in the head of a let's say Italian in the south. Both living styles and regional habits and historically grown identities are lightyears apart. There is no such thing as just "the one Europe". Saying "Europe" imo automatically must imply the plural form.

[nikimcbee]

@ skybird
Do you know if there are any "breech of contract clauses"?

[Skybird]

@ skybird
Do you know if there are any "breech of contract clauses"?
To cut it short, over some possible issues they agreed on options for sanctions of some kind.

But:

The formulations are such that everybody can read anything into them. Mandatory automatisms in sanctions are so far successfully prevented by the majority of nations that get more money from the EU and Eurozone, than they pay in. They do not want mandatory sanctions that their own heads of states cannot prevent in the last minute. That'S why supervising functions by EU courts or independent boards are not wanted. The intention is to leave the option for egg-dancing open at all times.

Also I remind of that everybody has violated still valid rules and treaties until the very day, which includes the heavyweights Germany and France. Germany has been a prominent deficit sinner over years - and did not care, so did the EU. We already have the legally binding prohibition of one state fianncing the debts of another state, it is valid legal ruleing over here - and averybody acts as if this fact does not exist! The treaty of Maastricht, the stability pact - both are still in place and are valid and legally binding until this very moment! But nobody cares, mentioens them. Instead they talk about something sensationally new - they want to sign a so-called stability-pact now. Ah, wait - didn'T we just have had one? The one that currently is valid and does get not talked aboiut inentionally anymore? Now they want a stability pact, with conditions that are so rubber-like and movable that it is about anything but "stability" and "mandatory automatism" in sanctionising offenders.

They lie. Plain and simple. They lie in the morning. They lie at noon. They lie in the evening. They lie at night. And people know that they lie - but still vote for them, giving them the opportunity to lie even more - and later the same voters complain about them that they lie so much. Super! Hey lads, I say you/we/everybody gets what you/we/everybody has voted for!

What do you learn from it: currency-members and EU members break rules as they want, and make promises as they want, and will make rules as they want, and when they find it opportune, they will ignore them. When rules they formulated in ther past were opportunistically ignored in the past, why should one put more trust into the same clique now claiming to make new rules? They will break them again when they see fit, or work around them, hollow them out, whatever.

It's all just worthless bits of paper.

"Was kümmert mich heute mein Geschwätz von gestern? Morgen mach ich sowieso wieder ganz was anderes als gestern oder heute!"

[Torplexed]

While the bondholders would love to be paid in full, they are not that high on the totem pole of priority at this point. The main reasons the EU has keep feeding Greece money all this time is fear of contagion, crashing the system, and then the main thing for the EU elite, the Eurocrats as it were, is they don't want to admit failure. The EU was their grand project and Greece defaulting and leaving the monetary union would be a failure of the grand system, the utopian vision they've worked all their lives to put together. Their whole world would come crashing down and so they resist the handwriting on the wall at all costs.

However, at this point the handwriting is in big flaming letters. Hard to ignore.

[Oberon]

The only problem there is that you have to look at the fools who have made those loans.
Can europes big 2 manage with their bankers taking such a hit?

They're going to have to eventually, Greece is a sieve, eventually someone is going to give up trying to pour water in it, either it'll be Hollande after the French elections or the Greek government will fall in civil disorder.

[Tribesman]

They're going to have to eventually
I know, but will that bring down France and Germany too or have their frantic efforts to delay the default given them enough of a set up to protect their own banks?

[Oberon]

I know, but will that bring down France and Germany too or have their frantic efforts to delay the default given them enough of a set up to protect their own banks?

That would depend on whether they've been able to pull their heads out of the sand long enough to see what's coming. The way they've been acting...no...but whether that's just to try and keep investor confidence high whilst behind the scenes they're preparing for the worst, well...one would hope so.

[gimpy117]

that's what happens when the people at the bottom make to little, and are taxed to much...and the people at the top make so much, but are taxed relatively less.

so basically, either we ensure we tax the rich a huge amount, or we work on building the middle class again. but then again i think neither will happen, because that means the rich either have to pay us more and quit with their giant salaries, benefits and bonuses...or we tax them more, and when congress is in said bracket, when do you think that will happen?