Night Surface Attack

[Maki4444]

So, many times I have read about the famous night attacks which were done on the surface.....has anyone tried this in the game?? Don't the destroyers see you. Is there a tutorial for this??

[Raven_2012]

I've done it on unescorted ships, but I am new to game. Only playing for a few months.

I'm using mods in which one of them makes the night darker like in real life. Makes it more challenging. You can get pretty close to a ship without them spotting you. Once you start firing on them with deck gun the ships will turn on search lights trying to find you.

If there are multiple ships at night when attacked they will sound horns at each other in distress and even shot flares. Night time battles are by far the best and my favorite to be in. They are really when the u boat is most effective.

Also the moon plays a big factor in night time battles in SH5.

[Hinrich Schwab]

I prefer surface attacks against unescorted or lightly escorted (Q-Ship) targets if the weather conditions are right. A little bit of chop and no moon are best. Since this rarely happens, the submerged attack is much more common for me. Most of the time, I just prefer the submerged attack as it is nigh impossible to spot the scope in the dark with some waves. Most of the time, the weather is either too calm or an utter nightmare.

[tat501]

You get the advantage of the destroyers not being able to use ASDIC but I always seem to get spotted after the first couple of torpedos hit home and they start with the search lights =:dead: As a result I almost always attack convoys submerged even at night. Seems a bit unrealistic reading about the real war aces surface attacks. If someone has found some good evasion tactics I'd like to hear them!

[Dogfish40]

Go for it!!! Give it a try. Surface ships historically couldn't see a u-boat at night until it was well under 1000m. In the game (depending on your mods) they shouldn't see you for about the same. Destroyers can be a bit more sensitive if you are going to attack them. If it's a convoy and there is just one or two escorts, yes, a surface attack will work fine. Be prepared for surprises though. I've gotten cocky thinking that the sim was "dumbed down" more than it is. That's when things get exciting....
Sink 'em all!
D40 :salute:




So, many times I have read about the famous night attacks which were done on the surface.....has anyone tried this in the game?? Don't the destroyers see you. Is there a tutorial for this??

[SilentOtto]

There is a problem with night attacks, though, I don't think any of the games in the series really got that right, and with the "right mods" (which you really _must_ use) everything is a bit too hard. You should be able to attack and run away in dark nights on the surface, but as it is, even big waves or squalls don't really hide you. Evasion on the surface, once you have been spotted, is almost impossible. Merchants' artillery seems to be laser guided, and escorts are even better.

You can get away with surface attacks at about 2000m depending on weather, maybe down to 1600m but not less.

But since I find it so hard to shoot and evade I mostly attack submerged, unless it's really dark or foggy. A pity we cannot do it Kretschmer style!

[Zanarkin]

I use night time to high speed to catch up with a convoy very distant and then usually wait till sun rise to attack at depth. Whenever escorts are present I'd rather know I'm already submerged chasing the keel and have already plotted a escape course away before the first torpedo is detected.

[GT182]

I've successfully done night attacks surfaced, and with the deck gun as my main weapon. But it's still early in the war... Sept/Oct of 39. I managed to sink a whole convoy of 8 ships and had to use my last 2 torpedos, only because I ran out of ammo for the deck gun.

The only thing bad about a night attack is you can hardly see diddly squat if you're any distance from your intended target. Later in the war I don't think I'd be as brave.... two many convoys will have several warships protecting them.

My one saving tactic was to fire on all I could and set fires on them. Once you know where they are then you can pick them off one at a time. Light sure helps a bunch.. no matter if it's a spotlight or a ship on fire. ;)

[kolind93r]

me too

[Webster]

one of THE biggest issues with realistic night attacks is the absolute never miss sniper accurate gunners on the ships. the get direct hits 2 out of 3 times on targets they shouldnt even be able to see much less target and get a hit on yet the game has them so accurate they rarely miss.

i think the game "forces" them to miss like 1 out of every 4 shots to try and simulate some form of inaccuracy but its so unrealistic its pathetic.

in truth even if they know your location they shouldnt be able to get hits on a sub running decks awash and only the tower showing, in reality only a rare purely lucky shot might score a hit.

[SilentOtto]

So true!

I'm reading U-boat Killer, a book by Donald Macintyre, who was the escort commander on the attack where Kretschmer's U99 and Schepke's U100 were sunk. In more than one attack account, he says they didnt even bother to shoot their guns when the seas were a bit rough, since firing from a small moving platform, on moving seas, to another small moving target, was totally useless. They always tried to pursue in order to ram, or make the sub submerge so they could attack with depth charges.

[gap]

one of THE biggest issues with realistic night attacks is the absolute never miss sniper accurate gunners on the ships.


in truth even if they know your location they shouldnt be able to get hits on a sub running decks awash and only the tower showing, in reality only a rare purely lucky shot might score a hit.

firing from a small moving platform, on moving seas, to another small moving target, was totally useless.

Is AI guns accuracy hardcoded? I cannot find any parameter dealing with targeting precision within guns_radars_01.sim :hmmm:

[GT182]

It would be nice if the AI gunner's accuracy could be cut down some. If someone could do it it would be The Dark Wraith, or one of the other crack modders we have.

[TheDarkWraith]

It would be nice if the AI gunner's accuracy could be cut down some. If someone could do it it would be The Dark Wraith, or one of the other crack modders we have.

data\Cfg\Sim.cfg:

...

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=6000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=12 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

[Webster]

Is AI guns accuracy hardcoded? I cannot find any parameter dealing with targeting precision within guns_radars_01.sim :hmmm:

well its not hard coded but its a catch 22 situation because it doesnt change from near to far, if they miss as they should at distance then when there are right on top of you they are way too unreal in missing at point blank range so its tough to pick "when" and what distance to be realistic and the other times be completely unreal.

my opinion on this is i would rather they miss unrealistic when close so the mid range to distance accuracy is somewhat realistic in hit to miss ratio. by the time they get close you have already passed any realistic aspect of the game anyway since you would be dead after they get within a certain range.

one thing i never see talked about is gun elevations, at close range or point blank the guns arent suposed to be able to shoot that low but in the game they can hit the water a mere 2 or 3 meters out from the ship which is stupidly unrealistic. there is a spot when you get too close that the ships guns arent supposed to be able to reach you. i would hope TDW would add this eliment into his mods at some point since they dont need to touch on accuracy but only the minimum elevation limits of deck guns.

[Maki4444]

data\Cfg\Sim.cfg:

...

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=6000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=12 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

:rock::know:

Thanks man!!

[gap]

data\Cfg\Sim.cfg:

...

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=6000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=12 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

Thank you TDW, you are the man!

Is there a parameter for weather-dependant cannons accuracy that you know of? I wonder if this aspect was implemented by devs :hmmm:

and also, taking cue from this discussion, are AI visual sensors affected in any way by wind speed/waves height?

well its not hard coded but its a catch 22 situation because it doesnt change from near to far, if they miss as they should at distance then when there are right on top of you they are way too unreal in missing at point blank range so its tough to pick "when" and what distance to be realistic and the other times be completely unreal.

my opinion on this is i would rather they miss unrealistic when close so the mid range to distance accuracy is somewhat realistic in hit to miss ratio. by the time they get close you have already passed any realistic aspect of the game anyway since you would be dead after they get within a certain range.

I think a way to affect long range accuracy would be playing with AI Cannons Max error angle parameter, since at long distance a small increase of it would have a greater effect than at close range. :hmm2:

one thing i never see talked about is gun elevations, at close range or point blank the guns arent suposed to be able to shoot that low but in the game they can hit the water a mere 2 or 3 meters out from the ship which is stupidly unrealistic. there is a spot when you get too close that the ships guns arent supposed to be able to reach you. i would hope TDW would add this eliment into his mods at some point since they dont need to touch on accuracy but only the minimum elevation limits of deck guns.

minimum elevation should be easy to fix: there's a parameter for each single gun in guns_radars_01.sim file. :yep:

[Dogfish40]

I have had really good luck evading hits from armed merchants, in fact, never been hit by those. I never did stick around very long to find out though:O:.
Does the merchants accuracy differ from the warships? When I played a couple of the Historic missions recently and was fired on I think I was only hit once (and didn't even know it, I just got a "Damage repaired" message from the chief). Is this the only adjustment we can make ya think??:hmmm:
D40

[SilentOtto]

My impression is their accuracy is very similar. What warships have is more weapons and firerate, but I don't really see a difference in accuracy. Probably also warships can spot you much farther, not sure because I don't stick near them too much either!

But this is just an impression, we'd have to look at the files to know.

[GT182]

I was returning to Whilhelmshaven last night south of Portland, out from the French coast, and came upon a West bouund Hog Island Merchant. No torpedos so I had at it with the deck gun. We did a close quarter head on attack, with the merchant firing only from it's bow mounted gun. We were about 1500 meters apart thru all this. Had several hits that did little damage. You could hear them ping off the conn and deck. Boy did that get everyone's attention.

I managed to finally knock out the merchant's bow gun. Once it was out I pounded the daylights out of them and sank it. It took 34 rounds to do the job.... AP and HE. We used 12 HE and 22 AP, with only 2 AP rounds left out of all our deck gun ammo.

[CampaignProgress.MisResult 15.MisKill 31]
Name=_BR Medium Old Split Merchant#500
ClassName=KMSSHogIsland
Type=102
Side=1
KillDate=19391101
Tonnage=4139
Long=-97340.398438
Lat=5992061.000000
Height=-5.641825
IsFromSingleMis=false
FromNode=Le Havre
ToNode=Lisboa

Yeah, next time I will get screenshots. Attacking shipping with the deck gun is a foolish way to get tonnage, especially with warships in the vicinity and in the Channel. I doubt I'll be trying this stunt after Dec of 41 with any warships around. We hear the Yanks will be tough buggers.

[gap]

Does the merchants accuracy differ from the warships?

Another good question would be: is accuracy affected by AI crews ratings?


Yeah, next time I will get screenshots. Attacking shipping with the deck gun is a foolish way to get tonnage, especially with warships in the vicinity and in the Channel. I doubt I'll be trying this stunt after Dec of 41 with any warships around. We hear the Yanks will be tough buggers.

Yep, soon after the beginning of the conflict U-boat captains received the order not to engage enemy shipping with the deck gun, if other options were available. Eventually, during late war, its use became so obsolete that only few U-boat of the type IX were equipped with it.

[JPeck96272]

I would have to say weather plays the biggest part in determining how effective approaching and/or engaging enemy ships while surfaced will be. For whatever reason, the last 2 weeks of my current patrol I have had either Medium or Light fog (it goes back and forth between the two) and while doing the mission to sink a Capitol Ship in Scapa Flow, I managed to slip into the bay through the south channel during Medium Fog conditions on a night with little to no moonlight while traveling "Decks Awash" past 3 different destroyers no more than 1500-2000 meters distance from my sub without being spotted.

After sinking the one Battleship sitting close to the harbor, I went to "Silent Running" back to the south opening of the bay where due to low batteries was forced to surface with a class B destroyer still between me and freedom. With the Medium fog I was able to close to within ~2500-3000 meters of the destroyer before visually sighting it, and I preemptively engaged the destroyer with AP rounds from the deck gun (I had no torps left). The destroyer only had a chance to get one round off, which flew a couple meters above the forward deck before she was finished off (it only took 3 AP rounds!?!?) I then went flank speed South-East of Scapa Flow for ~20 minutes, shut down engines, and settled on the ocean floor until nightfall again to make good my escape.

These are the mods I'm playing with:

German U-Boat Crew Language Pack
Real Environment - Revision_3
FX_Update_0_0_18_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_6_9_0_ByTheDarkWraith
IRAI_0_0_30_ByTheDarkWraith
IRAI_0_0_30_No_hydrophone_on_surface_No_Aircraft_s potting
NewUIs_TDC_6_9_0_New_radio_messages_German
TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5
NewUIs_TDC_6_9_0_Real_Navigation
U-boat Historical Specifications 1.7 for TDW Mods
OPEN HORIZONS II_full v1.6

[Dogfish40]

I was returning to Whilhelmshaven last night south of Portland, out from the French coast,...
Yeah, next time I will get screenshots. Attacking shipping with the deck gun is a foolish way to get tonnage, especially with warships in the vicinity and in the Channel. I doubt I'll be trying this stunt after Dec of 41 with any warships around. We hear the Yanks will be tough buggers.

GT!! Do you go through the channel to get home to Wilhelmshaven????
If you do...wow. I've got to try it. I always thought it was suicide.

Another good question would be: is accuracy affected by AI crews ratings?

I know that in SH4 the DD's varied from ship to ship somehow (I've got to go back and review that, it's been awhile) So...I'm wondering if there's a chance that this is possible in SH5.:hmm2:
In SH4 I think part of the DD or enemy ship's rating was Elite down to Green or Novice. I know that there were a few DD's in SH4 that you didn't want to get caught by, just because of this Elite rating. So,,,they differed from ship to ship.
D40



Yep, soon after the beginning of the conflict U-boat captains received the order not to engage enemy shipping with the deck gun, if other options were available. Eventually, during late war, its use became so obsolete that only few U-boat of the type IX were equipped with it.