Detected by enemy in shallow waters.

[Harald_Lange]

What is the best tactic to avoid destruction if you happen to get detected by an enemy ship in shallow waters? I made the stupid mistake of getting spotted by an ASW Trawler in the English Channel and obviously couldn't get away, so I sat on the bottom and proceeded to get turned into scrap metal by depth charges.

I assume its a case of "don't get spotted", but is there any hope whatsoever if you get caught in the shallows?

[Magic1111]

Sorry, I´ve no clue for your question, but...

:salute::salute::salute:Welcome aboard!!!:salute::salute::salute:

[gmuno]

Don't keep still, be always on the move. Don't let the enemy get a bow/stern approach (if he keeps on moving he'll pass above you from bow to stern or reverse), dodge like a rabbit. If it's only one enemy and you've got one torp: try to nail him (snapshot). Try to bring the enemy into an impossible position (collision with another ship, land). Don't hug the seafloor, sudden rises cause dammage and you need room for manuevering. Go on flank speed if necessary, stealthy and dead aren't so good at all.
Otherwise, good luck!

And ... Welcome!:salute:

[aj906]

Asuming early war period (otherwise, why else would you be in the Channel?!) and even still, if only with a ASW Tralwer, Calm seas = shoot out on the surface. But poor weather, constant sinking and raising of depth with double knuckles intersperced with spoof straight runs turning at the last minute to escape DC patterns.

[maillemaker]

It has been said before, and I will say it again:

Stay out of shallow water!

Your only chance of surviving the war is to:

1) Keep your sub at 100% hull integrity so that you can
2) Immediately dive to 200m after engaging anything that has destroyers nearby.

Depth is the only thing that will save you in this game.

As was noted, sitting on the sea floor ala "Das Boot" won't save you. They can "see" you just as easily as if you were free floating.

If you are absolutely trapped, about your only hope is to come to periscope depth and try and shoot your attacker. Destroyers sometimes come in in a straight line or, even if they zig-zag, they will come in straight at about 400 meters range. If you can identify your pursuer and thus find his hull draft you can slide a magnetic under him and one shot will usually destroy a destroyer. However this can be tricky because you need 200m or so for the torpedo to arm. Wait too long and the torp will pass under them harmlessly. Electrics are better for this attempt as they will try to evade steamers, though steamers set on "fast" will usually get them at 400m even if they try to evade.

Sometimes, if you are good, you can nail an escort that is circling in front of you, but you have to be good at determining lead on the target. Electrics are almost a necessity for this as they will speed up or slow down to avoid steamers.

In very shallow waters if you have bagged a ship it will sit on the bottom. You can use your scope to navigate your boat next to the sunken wreck. The escorts will not come close enough to harm you for fear of striking the wreck. This can give you time to reload torpedoes for trying for a shot.

But they won't just give up. They will circle you and circle you and circle you until you run out of air.

Best bet - stay out of shallow water. Period. Don't risk it. I don't take my boat anywhere that it is less than 1000m depth unless I am ordered to a patrol grid that is shallower, and then I stay just for my 24 hours and get the hell out.

I'm trying to make it to the end of the war. I've never done it yet in years of playing. I will not engage a convoy if the depth or the condition of my boat won't let me go down to 200m depth.

Even at that, I dread the invention of the hedgehog. Depth will save you from depth charges, but not hedgehogs.

Steve

[Harald_Lange]

Thanks for the great advice and warm welcome everybody. If it happens again, (yes it is early on in the war) I'll grow a pair and shoot it out on the surface!

[Hinrich Schwab]

To add to the wise and repeated advice of avoiding shallow water (<150m) Avoid the English Channel, period. Except in the early phases of the war where one could get away with going through, the Channel is a deathtrap. The weather is almost always foul (no deck gun) and the depth rarely gets greather than 100 meters. The worst parts are the Straights of Dover, The Western Approaches between Penzance and Plymouth and the midpoint near Portsmouth.

[Gargamel]

Nooo not on the surface, but just under it. At these depths running at flank trying to get space for a stern (or bow if your lucky) shot is pretty much your only option.

There really isnt a reason to be in waters this shallow, unless you're hunting a specific target, ie chasing a capital ship or raiding a harbor. The channel is off limits as soon as the war starts.

[misha1967]

What is the best tactic to avoid destruction if you happen to get detected by an enemy ship in shallow waters?

Caught by Tommy ASW in shallow waters? To quote the ill-fated Kaleün, Unglück von Untergang: "Na dann, meine Herren, gute Nacht." :03:

Lots of good advice already, though, even though you must embrace the suck and come to peace with the fact that your career is facing a sudden end.

To sum it up from my personal experience:

1) Do you have deeper waters anywhere nearby? If so, you might stand a chance dodging like crazy and flanking towards that area every time the Tommy is done with a pass. Forget about intelligent positioning, your sole priority is to get to somewhere where you can hide.

2) Extremely poor visibility? Best bet is to wait for him to pass, then order flank speed ahead, blow ballast and run like the wind in the opposite direction he's going and tell the LI to forget about recharging the batteries on the surface (he'll do that by default, so be sure to order him NOT to as it slows your boat down). Mind you, this will only have a snowball's chance in Hell of working in extremely poor visibility (night, fog etc.) AND provided that he doesn't have radar. You cannot outrun a destroyer, so if he can "see" you, you'll lose.

3) None of the above? Go to periscope depth after a pass, wait for him to come around for a second pass and then, in the middle of his turn, let go all tubes forward in a fan attack. Low depth, magnetic detonator (the impact detonator will still work if you actually manage to hit him). It's a desperate move, but if 1) and 2) are right out, it's your only one. Well, except for

4), which is if you're out of eels. In that case, blow ballast, man the deck gun and shoot it out on the surface while going as fast as you can, changing course as much as you can without making it impossible for you to aim. That's not only desperate, it's downright suicidal in most cases, but at least it beats letting the damn Tommy kill you at his leisure or surrendering.

Welcome to the Ubootwaffe, Herr Kaleun! :salute:

[maillemaker]

Shooting it out with a destroyer in GWX is pretty pointless. You will lose.

Steve

[misha1967]

Shooting it out with a destroyer in GWX is pretty pointless. You will lose.

Steve

Correct. It is, at best, a 0.0001% shot at survival, but it still beats dying for sure.

As I said to begin with: If you're in that situation, you're probably dead already.

[misha1967]

Unless it is less dangerous than destroyer, the chances are pretty high to win the deckgun battle. Say against Elco-TB or armed trawler :arrgh!:

Correct again.

The question, however, was "what to do if I find myself in this situation?"

You should never find yourself in that situation in the first place. PPPPPP. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. :DL However, if you DO manage to mess up like that, and trust me, I have done that, what action in an already hopeless situation presents you with the best probability of survival?

Even if that probability is in the single digits.

[PappyCain]

I had a thread here somewhere where I got caught in Scapa Flow, spotted by shore batteries near the net. I hugged sediment next to the net which kept the alerted enemy vessels keep clear from me ... then in time hugged the shoreline where they dare not go.

In the thread I recall mentioning 2 ships grounded, two ships ended up getting hull damage and blowing up from their depth charging in the shoal water, one ship got hung on the net ...

I eventually escaped hugging the shoreline, moving slow with my fathometer checks keeping me several meteres above the sediment ... when at a certain area I surfaced and took to the sea flank speed ...

It was my best furball adventure yet!

:salute:

[Brag]

Keep moving and place rudder 5 drees port or starboard. This seems to mess up the AI a bit.

And welcome aboard :salute::salute::salute:

[maillemaker]

Unless it is less dangerous than destroyer, the chances are pretty high to win the deckgun battle. Say against Elco-TB or armed trawler

In GWX, it seems to me by the time you take down a torpedo boat your hull integrity will be so low that if they don't sink you you will have to go home right away because you won't be able to dive without sinking.

Steve

[Missing Name]

MTB's are indeed weak and take only a few hits to sink. That being said, the machineguns they pack are more than enough to tear your gunnery officers apart by the time you can take them down.

[Raticon]

Once when i was cruising around the british coast in my trusty old II-D i spotted an Elco Torpedo-boat heading towards me, he was clearly very very mad at my presence in his back yard and decided to sink me with his nasty machineguns. Boldly and bravely i stared into the gates of hell, headed straight towards him, my lone 20mm AA-gun blazing fire and death in his general direction.

I have deactivated hull integrity view so only wai i could know about my damages was the constant yelling from my CE that "WE ARE TAKING DAMAGE!" and the hizzing and ricocheting from the Elcos bullets. A dreadful and exhausting battle between these two titans (my II-D and the Elco) started, with me emerging as the victorious champion. I was out of torps allready so i headed home, just to discover i had 11,76% hull integrity after that patrol (accessed trough SH3 Commander). I was in chock and peril. I hadn't encountered anything dangerous earlier on than the Elco and yet it took almost 90% of my HI with the machinegun? What was he loading that gun with? Depleted uranium-tungsten high performance anti-capital-rounds? :doh:

Nevertheless i had the trusty mechanics at Kiel weld my tug together again and off i went, always remebering my near-death encounter with the most dreaded vessel of the seas.. the ELCO!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzvptFQi9h6Qpnnr2TXGhlPcn2AZqeC fk30CYK8RGPK5opgsUTBnlTGrUN
Fear the fast-moving, torpedo and MG-armed reaper!

[Harald_Lange]

Awesome replies, thanks everyone.

There really isnt a reason to be in waters this shallow, unless you're hunting a specific target, ie chasing a capital ship or raiding a harbor. The channel is off limits as soon as the war starts.

Just this ^^ are you speaking hypothetically, or are you saying that even if I'm starting in Wilhelmshaven I should go around the top of UK? Doubt if I'd have the diesel for that.

[Sailor Steve]

Just this ^^ are you speaking hypothetically, or are you saying that even if I'm starting in Wilhelmshaven I should go around the top of UK? Doubt if I'd have the diesel for that.
You have plenty of fuel if you use 2/3 speed rather than full speed.

As for speaking hypothetically, no, these were actual orders issued by high command to BdU.

These long passages are due to the order to proceed around the Faroes, on which Naval War Staff has insisted contrary to F.O. U/B's intentions.
Page 7 "Situation on 23/8", "Distribution of Boats".
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30247.htm

[Raticon]

If you are bold and brave, and got the weather on your side (preferably bad weather) you should try to sneak into the western part of the channel and lurk there in mid to late january and early february 1940, you will have a great change at spotting the HMS Royal Oak (Revenge-class battleship, 31000 tons) in the middle of a big convoy there with a very weak destroyer screen mostly consisting of armed trawlers and ASW trawlers. Some large tankers and such will also be present. If you dare to get even closer to the western channel approach you might also spot the Ark Royal (Big fat carrier of some kind, never seen it myself though) protected by some nasty and skilled destroyers. A brave kaleun could easily get 50k+ tons in a single attack run there. I myself bagged the Royal Oak with one single (!) torpedo right at the tip of the ship and managed to get away without even one depth charge launched against me. No saves or reloading of game.

Do not engage anything unless extremely necessary if you are swimming the channel and if you really need to surface to charge batteries and get fresh air head towards the french coast as the french navy seems to be completely careless and neglecting in their naval patrols, the occasional trawler and lone Destroyer can be spotted. NEVER EVER EVER enter the channel during daytime and calm seas, enemy ships and planes (ansons early on) will make your trip into a pain and nightmare as they will be very mad and irritated about your precense in their front yard. If you manage to get past the straits of Dover you can sail close to the French coast as the proud French navy always seems to be on strike or vacation.

So, from my own experiences:

Enter the channel if:
The date is BEFORE may '40.
The weather is bad and it's night.
You are extremely skilled, brave or reckless... :rock:
You are hunting a very specific target or raiding harbours (as stated above by another kaleun)
You are extremely low on fuel and need the shortest route avalible back to Germany.

Do NOT enter the channel if:
Date is past may 1940.
You are sailing in anything bigger than a type-IID or VII-B/C (i.e an IX)
Weather is fine and the sea is calm.
You have not lost your mind.
You do not have serious business there.

However, i do recommend every kaleun to take a trip there at least once to experience true tension, challenge and planning, preferably before the fall of France so you will have enemies on both sides of the channel. Even if it's a-historical, one can always role-play a kaleun and crew in the hunt fore something special and that they will never tell anyone from the Bdu about the trip, or a reconnaissance trip from Dönitz or Raeder themselves, an order above whatever the Bdu says ;)

[Harald_Lange]

If you are bold and brave, and got the weather on your side (preferably bad weather) you should try to sneak into the western part of the channel and lurk there in mid to late january and early february 1940, you will have a great change at spotting the HMS Royal Oak (Revenge-class battleship, 31000 tons) in the middle of a big convoy there with a very weak destroyer screen mostly consisting of armed trawlers and ASW trawlers. Some large tankers and such will also be present. If you dare to get even closer to the western channel approach you might also spot the Ark Royal (Big fat carrier of some kind, never seen it myself though) protected by some nasty and skilled destroyers. A brave kaleun could easily get 50k+ tons in a single attack run there. I myself bagged the Royal Oak with one single (!) torpedo right at the tip of the ship and managed to get away without even one depth charge launched against me. No saves or reloading of game.

Do not engage anything unless extremely necessary if you are swimming the channel and if you really need to surface to charge batteries and get fresh air head towards the french coast as the french navy seems to be completely careless and neglecting in their naval patrols, the occasional trawler and lone Destroyer can be spotted. NEVER EVER EVER enter the channel during daytime and calm seas, enemy ships and planes (ansons early on) will make your trip into a pain and nightmare as they will be very mad and irritated about your precense in their front yard. If you manage to get past the straits of Dover you can sail close to the French coast as the proud French navy always seems to be on strike or vacation.

So, from my own experiences:

Enter the channel if:
The date is BEFORE may '40.
The weather is bad and it's night.
You are extremely skilled, brave or reckless... :rock:
You are hunting a very specific target or raiding harbours (as stated above by another kaleun)
You are extremely low on fuel and need the shortest route avalible back to Germany.

Do NOT enter the channel if:
Date is past may 1940.
You are sailing in anything bigger than a type-IID or VII-B/C (i.e an IX)
Weather is fine and the sea is calm.
You have not lost your mind.
You do not have serious business there.

However, i do recommend every kaleun to take a trip there at least once to experience true tension, challenge and planning, preferably before the fall of France so you will have enemies on both sides of the channel. Even if it's a-historical, one can always role-play a kaleun and crew in the hunt fore something special and that they will never tell anyone from the Bdu about the trip, or a reconnaissance trip from Dönitz or Raeder themselves, an order above whatever the Bdu says ;)


Haha I think I'm on my seventh patrol now and never realised that it was a no-go zone. I thought it seemed a little...INTENSE. :rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Missing Name]

Haha I think I'm on my seventh patrol now and never realised that it was a no-go zone. I thought it seemed a little...INTENSE. :rotfl2::rotfl2:

Understatement?