Automatic Map Updates

[lucasner]

Who uses it? Who doesn't?

Does anyone consider it an unfair "cheat"?

I only use the external view cuz I like to watch the torps hit from upclose...no finding where and what that ship on the horizon is for me. But I dont think that the auto map update is too unrealistic to expect your crew to do for you.

Although, once you learn how to plot courses and do an accurate AOB, it DOES make a kill almost a gaurantee. I remember reading sub commanders that would say that any ship that passed even NEAR their sub was a gaurantee dead ship as long as their torpedos didn't fail them or a enemy plane bounce them from out of a cloud. I feel that I can (and HAVE) reached this level of deadliness. If I am not attacked during the set-up, even in a storm I am almost gauranteed a kill. But I use the auto-map update "cheat" so am I fooling myself??

Dave

[Randomizer]

I use it without shame and do not consider it in any way a cheat. A submarine captain was never alone and he had trained subordinates to prepare and update plots base on all types of sensor input.

The problem with the game is that these plots are essentially 100% accurate and so many players consider using map-contacts on as a cheat. But I would submit that leaving them off is not reasonable given that the captain was part of a fire-control team when conducting an attack.

It comes down to however you wish to play, there's no "right way", just what's "right" for you. Many who reject map-contacts on also use external views and see no contradiction doing so.

That said, map-contacts on will be necessary once you need to snorkel, in the later stages of the war. Without map-contacts, you cannot spot patrolling aircraft when snorkelling and take evasive action so your patrol will probably be of short duration and likely end violently.

[Sailor Steve]

The reality of map updates is that yes, the crew should do it for you, but they can only put on the map what you tell them too, or the soundman's bearings. Having everything on the map all the time is quite unrealistic.

I use a mod that, for me, gives the best of both worlds.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1402399&postcount=10

[Randomizer]

The reality of map updates is that yes, the crew should do it for you, but they can only put on the map what you tell them too, or the soundman's bearings. Having everything on the map all the time is quite unrealistic.

I use a mod that, for me, gives the best of both worlds.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1402399&postcount=10
Fair ball. Exactly how does this mod allow you to spot aircraft while snorkeling?

[Gargamel]

But short of giving Bernard his own snorkel and hammer, and tying him to the schnorkel, you can't spot aircraft while snorkeling. Later in the war you ca detect radar, but not the source.

[Sailor Steve]

Fair ball. Exactly how does this mod allow you to spot aircraft while snorkeling?
I'm not sure. I've never played past 1940. On the other hand it doesn't change spotting abilities, just how they're placed on the map. If someone manning the periscope spots a plane the procedure would be to lower everything and dive. It doesn't really matter where the plane is.

Of course that's just my opinion. :sunny:

[Randomizer]

I'm not sure. I've never played past 1940. On the other hand it doesn't change spotting abilities, just how they're placed on the map. If someone manning the periscope spots a plane the procedure would be to lower everything and dive. It doesn't really matter where the plane is.

Of course that's just my opinion. :sunny:
When snorkeling in SH3, GWX3 you have two choices if you wish survive.

1. Man the observation scope in real time, continually observing for planes visually, a really silly idea; or

2. Navigate from the map screen, zoomed and with one periscope (generally the sky periscope) raised fully.

Historically a watch-keeper manned the scope, changing at frequent intervals, KL Karl_Heinz Marbach gives a pretty good description of snorkeling a Type VIIC in Harald Busch's U-Boats at War. My understanding is that KL Marbach helped write the book on snorkel doctrine for BdU. The Commander did not keep periscope watch when snorkeling so there is little point in doing so in the game unless you want to.

Aircraft will not appear on the map screen with map contacts off and since carrier based planes (Martlets), single engine planes (Swordfish), Mosquitos and Beaufighters can sink you as quickly as a Sunderland or Liberator and lack radar, you'll never know what kills you if you play map contacts off with a snorkel boat.

With maps contacts on, the map zoomed to the 2500m screen, at TC of <= x16, plane icons will appear on the map and in most cases you can get the scope and snorkel down in time to avoid damage. Don't forget that the mast-mounted radar detectors do not appear until September 1944, long after snorkels become available.

Have conducted some 20+ snorkel patrols in GWX3 and once I started using the snorkeling technique above, I have never lost a boat while snorkeling (but have taken repairable damage on a couple of occasions).

I have always contended that, in any game, realism is almost entirely dependent on what you do with the game rather than what features or glitz the game brings to you.

[Gargamel]

I stand corrected, was not aware about the scope watch.

[Commander Mysenses]

Historically a watch-keeper manned the scope, changing at frequent intervals
Surely that would be moddable, for the real-navvers. Some sort of kludge, where the watch crew still call contacts if the sub is at snorkel depth and scope is raised.

[Sailor Steve]

As Randomizer said, if you leave the scope up they will warn you automatically, it Map Contact Updates is turned on. With the Assisted Plotting Mod you may not see them, but you'll still get the warning and have time to dive.

[Randomizer]

As Randomizer said, if you leave the scope up they will warn you automatically, it Map Contact Updates is turned on. With the Assisted Plotting Mod you may not see them, but you'll still get the warning and have time to dive.
Are you certain this is the case?

Have found that even with map contacts on you receive no warning whatsoever when aircraft become visible with the periscope up nor does TC drop to x1. When an aircraft icon appears, you need to manually reduce TC and take evasive action. This is the reason for the high map screen zoom and low TC when snorting.

I expect this is because the game cannot place crew member at the periscope to actually sound an alert but could well be wrong.

Since I don't use the Assisted Plotting Mod, perhaps someone who does can set up some test runs, snorkeling with the scope up, to confirm Sailor Steve's observation.

[Sailor Steve]

You could be right. I've never played far enough in to have a schnorkel. I though others had said that with the scope up the crew will spot planes.

Sorry if I'm wrong on that.

[PappyCain]

I recall the first time (and only time ) I got nailed by the schnorkel up, and aircraft radar locked on and they nailed me. (sunk)

I did not know the crew could spot aircraft with the scope up and map it. Do they yell anything? (Dastchtinzoombomberthingyacomin!!)

At least my immersion will be helped with knoweldge that the pericscope will identify aircraft and it will show plotted on the map - correct?

:salute:

[Randomizer]

At least my immersion will be helped with knoweldge that the pericscope will identify aircraft and it will show plotted on the map - correct?
With map contacts on, aircraft will appear as triangle icons on the map screen at a range of about 5000m give or take. No audible or text warning is provided, the icon appears and you see it and react or miss it and probably die.

Not all aircraft detected visually will spot you, occasionally they will fly past without detecting you.

In the map screen, the periscope view is 360*, I visually check sea and sky when reaching snorkel depth (part of the Captain's job description) and then go to the map screen, zoomed to the 2500m scale, raise the snorkel and when the charge battery icon lights up, go to Ahead 1/3 and put the batteries on charge. This gives a speed of about 5-knots in typical sea states.

Aircraft are not identified by type unless you first select it and then ask the WO for target identification. This is a guess, I never bother; the merest detection of an aircraft is enough for me to lower all masts, crank on the amps and dive, generally doing a turn 90* towards the bearing to the aircraft. Have found that turning towards the contact is generally better than turning away because it seems that they will tend to drop ordnance behind you, usually far enough for you to avoid damage.

I do not make a radical course change when a mast-mounted sensor detects a radar signature although the ESM line provides a bearing to the emitter. No German RWR provided bearing information to my knowledge so without this info, executing an evasive course seems wrong.

[Mittelwaechter]

I don't know what happens with map contacts on, I never use it. But with a raised scope any contact (ship or aircraft) drops me out of TC whenever the contact comes in visual range.
This is my signal to dive while snorkeling.
If I get a hydrophone contact - fine.
If not - I wait for the bombs to fall behind me.
If nothing happens the bee didn't see me.

[u crank]

I do not make a radical course change when a mast-mounted sensor detects a radar signature although the ESM line provides a bearing to the emitter. No German RWR provided bearing information to my knowledge so without this info, executing an evasive course seems wrong.

I always wondered about that.That's good to know for realism sake. I assume that the RWR could not distinguish between a ship and an aircraft. Is that correct?

[PappyCain]

If I used the schnorkle (and do not like it) but I was able to get get a map mark of any aircraft, I would dive and hard right rudder and run 90 degrees from my original track ... as a flight sim nutter, I know a plane in a dive is committed and cannot deviate well enough to comp for my change in course. Anyway, radar technology aboard the aircraft was too much for the schnorkle usage IMHO, at night one was better off running on the surface IMHO to recharge (assuming relatively calm seas and a watch and flak gunners). Again, just my thoughts which others may dismiss. LOL

:salute:

[Randomizer]

I don't know what happens with map contacts on, I never use it. But with a raised scope any contact (ship or aircraft) drops me out of TC whenever the contact comes in visual range.
This is my signal to dive while snorkeling.
If I get a hydrophone contact - fine.
If not - I wait for the bombs to fall behind me.
If nothing happens the bee didn't see me.
Interesting; this seems contrary to what I have experienced except when the mast-mounted radar detector picks up a signal but if that's how it works for you - Excellent and Good Hunting!

[teapot156]

Interesting; this seems contrary to what I have experienced except when the mast-mounted radar detector picks up a signal but if that's how it works for you - Excellent and Good Hunting!

you might want to consider messing with your time compression settings in SH3 cmdr. It's really useful to set all the "spotting" time changes to 1x so that you have time to react. Hopefully you havent tried this yet and it helps!

[PappyCain]

I recall Sailor Steve mentioning 128 as the fastest TC he recommends for enemy aircraft zones. I will try the 1X setting now to 'all stop' the TC and get my pants on..

:salute:

[PappyCain]

In SH3 Commander I reset TC setting on aircraft from 128 to 1 and the game crashed. Comments? Advisements?

:salute:

[Randomizer]

In SH3 Commander I reset TC setting on aircraft from 128 to 1 and the game crashed. Comments? Advisements?

:salute:
Cannot explain the CTD but sometimes resetting values in SH Commander then loading a save already at sea can cause problems. Good rule of thumb is only make changes while in port.

Mittelwaechter's experience notwithstanding I do not think it makes a difference. When the mast-mounted radar detector detects a signal you will drop to x1 TC. However, as I noted here:
Have found that even with map contacts on you receive no warning whatsoever when aircraft become visible with the periscope up nor does TC drop to x1. When an aircraft icon appears, you need to manually reduce TC and take evasive action. This is the reason for the high map screen zoom and low TC when snorting.

I expect this is because the game cannot place crew member at the periscope to actually sound an alert but could well be wrong.
This is what I have experienced many many times. On the map screen you can watch the plane icon fly by at whatever the current TC happens to be regardless of the SH Commander set up. On all of my snorkel boat patrols the appearance of non-radar emitting aircraft on the map screen does not automatically drop the game to x1 TC. Detection of radar signals will.

It's certainly possible have been playing wrong for the last several years or there is some mod that Mittelwaechter is using that I am not. I know the techniques I have detailed here work fine for me but caveat emptor and all that.

[maillemaker]

I am still trying to get through the war. I'm at 100% realism, but doing so with map contacts on. This is possible in GWX 3.

I am to the point now where I rarely miss with my torpedoes. Automatic map contacts make it absurdly simple to choose targets and thus plot good intercepts on convoys. They also make it trivial to calculate speed using the 3:15 method.

If I make it through the war I am going to try again with no map contacts, doing the plotting myself.

I never found snorkels to be particularly useful. The problem is you get bounced by aircraft and no warning. I have not tried snorkeling with the scope raised. I will have to try that. Does an aircraft icon appearing on-map drop TC?

Steve

[les green01]

i don't play to much with the map contacts on maybe i should give it a go