CAPT Holly Graf gets ‘honorable’ retirement

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Yep. :yep: You did read correctly. Captain Holly Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Graf), also nicknamed as "Horrible Holly" and "female Captain Bligh", gets 'honorable' retirement against recommendation of her board of inquiry. Here are few links on subject:

http://www.susankatzkeating.com/2012/01/navy-ignores-board-of-inquiry-upgrades.html

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/01/navy-fired-cowpens-co-to-get-honorable-retirement-010612/

http://militarycorruption.com/hollygraf18.htm

http://www.stripes.com/navy-to-let-ousted-captain-of-yokosuka-based-ship-to-get-honorable-retirement-1.165440

Holly who? :hmmm: Here is thread by Kaye T. Bai on SUBSIM on subject: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=162805

EDIT: When digging for more information on Captain Holly Graf, I found interesting blog (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly-graf-part-1/) which I address in this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1829967&postcount=41) post (Page 3 #41). I strongly recommend reading it as it gives interesting counter point to majority of other sources.

[Takeda Shingen]

The USN seems to handle it's trouble a lot like PSU. :hmmm:

[August]

The USN seems to handle it's trouble a lot like PSU. :hmmm:


I guess a lot like any large organization that doesn't want to be defined by it's renegades.

[Tribesman]

Wow, that "military corruption.com" site is crazy.

Interesting how the story played out over the years though.

[Takeda Shingen]

I guess a lot like any large organization that doesn't want to be defined by it's renegades.

And yet, by handling them as they have both have created that which they feared. I would always have hoped that, should I ever be in their shoes, I would do the right thing right away. Having never been in the place to make that choice, I cannot say that I would.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

BTW what you think about this picture?http://www.militarycorruption.com/Images/near-miss.jpg
Picture is from MilitaryCorruption.com article found here (http://www.militarycorruption.com/hollygraf5.htm). Couple of quotes.
It's been said a picture is worth a thousand words. We can only hope the one above is worth a court martial, even if it makes the Navy blanch to punish an incompetent and unstable "politically correct" poster girl for all the super feminists at the Pentagon and the U.S. Naval Academy."The McCAIN lines up next to us (the COWPENS) and then both ships went full throttle. The whole thing was crazy. Graf would go nuts if any of the OOD's came within a few miles of a contact, and now here she was ready to drag-race a destroyer.

"At one point, we nearly hit the McCAIN's fantail when the ships came within 300 feet of the other. I held my breath and prayed to God we wouldn't collide, because many sailors could have been killed and at least one Navy warship sunk at sea", a sailor told MilitaryCorruption.comI would like to hear opinions of those who have served on navy (not banning others) of soundness of this kind of "drag-racing"?

[gi_dan2987]

I feel that the quality of people coming out of this modern society is rotten to begin with, and that people will take their immoral lusts into the military with them. After all, our military is staffed by the once civilians of this nation. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. This is how our total society is being utterly disintegrated from the inside out by those in control of the 4 hidden dynasties; Wealth, Religion, Politics, and Education. Through these 4 major dynasties our country is being broken down and re-molded into the country that those truly in power want us to be, whereby we're easily controlled and better positioned for the execution of their selfish plans.
Another example of the scourge of feminazism overtaking this land. Those with the cooch think they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

[Stealhead]

It is funny to me how an officer can do things worthy of a dishonorable discharge most times they get let off with out a hitch.There are tons of examples of officers having been court marshaled and found guilty yet someone stepping in to let them off the hook.Now for an enlisted person your screwed hard they love to make examples of enlisted men and women this was something that really disgusted me about the military while I was in.

I knew people in my old units that made "mistakes in judgment" things that should not have gotten them kicked out yet the JAG threw the book at them in many cases even when commanding officers did not wish for the person to punished in such a manner.It makes no sense to me you(as enlisted) will get your career ruined for minor things in the modern military that would have only had a short term negative effect in the old day and would have been removed from your records after good behavior.I know a retired Air Force E-9 served for 28 years from 1961-1981 this guy was one of the youngest E-9s in the Air Force in his day and was a Training Instructor at Lackland form 1964-1967 even though he had received an article 15 for getting drunk and wrecking all of the public areas of his dorm at Nellis AFB when he was an A2C.Today you would have a very good chance of getting kicked out for such a thing yet 40 years ago it had little bearing.In my day I knew an E-4 whose terrible infraction was getting drunk and getting into a fight with some Army private in which very minor injures where caused by both parties.The Air Force saw fit to give this E-4 a less than honorable discharge even though his commanding officer felt that an article 15 with loss of all rank was fair punishment and wanted the airman to stay in the Air Force.

Myself I had an LOR in tech school for being late for formation because I had to complete an assigned detail which failure to have completed would also have resulted in an LOR :hmmm: Which the NCO gladly reminded myself and my roommate who also received an LOR. This stuck with me until my second base where my commanding officer tossed it in the trash.

Flip the coin and officers can get away with damn near anything.

[Schroeder]

@Stealhead

I only understood 50% of your post. Not everyone here is trained in US military acronyms.;)

[Stealhead]

LOR Letter of Reprimand letter listing an infraction you have committed not worthy of punishment.They can be removed by commanding officers.

Article 15 is a form of non judicial punishment given by commanders for infractions not considered as requiring courts marshal.In most cases the offender
looses rank and may also get extra or be restricted to base rank is earned back.

JAG Judge Advocate General basically this is the judicial branch that represents the military DA of the military military judges are also part of JAG.District Attorney not sure what this equates to in Germany.

E-4 fourth enlisted rank in the US military

E-9 highest enlisted rank

NCO non commissioned officer an enlisted man.

Enlisted a person that serves as an enlisted man

Officer a person that is a commissioned officer by Congress and the President of the United States.

Dishonorable discharge very bad conduct equal to a criminal conviction most that receive this committed a a crime in the military and served military prison time.


Less than honorable discharge poor conduct but you can appeal them after 6 months and most will get it changed to honorable.

A2C Airman Second Class old Air Force rank an E-2 now just called Airman.

[Tribesman]

BTW what you think about this picture?....
Kraznyi, you ain't doing yourself any favours linking to those loonies.
The actual story speaks for itself, once you introduce those crazy rants from that site you actually start to make the officer look better.

[gi_dan2987]

It is funny to me how an officer can do things worthy of a dishonorable discharge most times they get let off with out a hitch.There are tons of examples of officers having been court marshaled and found guilty yet someone stepping in to let them off the hook.Now for an enlisted person your screwed hard they love to make examples of enlisted men and women this was something that really disgusted me about the military while I was in.

I knew people in my old units that made "mistakes in judgment" things that should not have gotten them kicked out yet the JAG threw the book at them in many cases even when commanding officers did not wish for the person to punished in such a manner.It makes no sense to me you(as enlisted) will get your career ruined for minor things in the modern military that would have only had a short term negative effect in the old day and would have been removed from your records after good behavior.I know a retired Air Force E-9 served for 28 years from 1961-1981 this guy was one of the youngest E-9s in the Air Force in his day and was a Training Instructor at Lackland form 1964-1967 even though he had received an article 15 for getting drunk and wrecking all of the public areas of his dorm at Nellis AFB when he was an A2C.Today you would have a very good chance of getting kicked out for such a thing yet 40 years ago it had little bearing.In my day I knew an E-4 whose terrible infraction was getting drunk and getting into a fight with some Army private in which very minor injures where caused by both parties.The Air Force saw fit to give this E-4 a less than honorable discharge even though his commanding officer felt that an article 15 with loss of all rank was fair punishment and wanted the airman to stay in the Air Force.

Myself I had an LOR in tech school for being late for formation because I had to complete an assigned detail which failure to have completed would also have resulted in an LOR :hmmm: Which the NCO gladly reminded myself and my roommate who also received an LOR. This stuck with me until my second base where my commanding officer tossed it in the trash.

Flip the coin and officers can get away with damn near anything.

I was in the Army and I witnessed numerous occasions where officers would acquit themselves of charges worthy of court martial, and would turn around and promote themselves and give themselves medals. Usually some poor enlisted guy would take the fall and the punishment. There was an E7 that lost his rifle on a patrol in Iraq, got back to base, switched up the serial numbers with some private, and got the private in trouble for losing the weapon. My lieutenant lost his gas mask, and did the same thing to a specialist in my squad. After the tour they were all assigned bronze stars. For what? They rarely left the wire or took responsibility for their actions. People are selfish and self serving. The greatest example of this lies with the talking suits in washington.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Kraznyi, you ain't doing yourself any favours linking to those loonies.Do you mean that I'm looking loony too?
The actual story speaks for itself,I agree that articles' tone is quite harsh and many of their sources are anonymous which makes them not reliable as sole source. Thats reason why I have opted to quote other sources as well.

In case of that article I linked last (one containing picture of ships moving close of each other) I wanted to hear navy people/mariner opinion of that picture. I quoted their text to make it clear what picture is supposed to represent.once you introduce those crazy rants from that site you actually start to make the officer look better.Could you explain how? Other sources still give quite similar picture of captain Graf.

[Tribesman]

Could you explain how?
Other sources still give quite similar picture of captain Graf.
It is in their explaination
Is it the old boys network, poofs in the pentagon, preference for officers over enlisted, dykes at sea, modern political correctness gone mad, simple nepotism, typical old school navy.....that site its claims its all of them ...so how does that work? Its like saying its a capitalist communist martian from venus who is a sunni jewish bhuddist atheist

[August]

I was in the Army and I witnessed numerous occasions where officers would acquit themselves of charges worthy of court martial, and would turn around and promote themselves and give themselves medals. Usually some poor enlisted guy would take the fall and the punishment. There was an E7 that lost his rifle on a patrol in Iraq, got back to base, switched up the serial numbers with some private, and got the private in trouble for losing the weapon. My lieutenant lost his gas mask, and did the same thing to a specialist in my squad. After the tour they were all assigned bronze stars. For what? They rarely left the wire or took responsibility for their actions. People are selfish and self serving. The greatest example of this lies with the talking suits in washington.

You have evidence of these crimes and you didn't report it to the JAG? Why?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

It is in their explaination
Is it the old boys network, poofs in the pentagon, preference for officers over enlisted, dykes at sea, modern political correctness gone mad, simple nepotism, typical old school navy.....that site its claims its all of them ...Agreed. Thats their explanation. I don't know their sources so I'm not qualified to comment whether its correct or not. May I ask what is your explanation?so how does that work? Its like saying its a capitalist communist martian from venus who is a sunni jewish bhuddist atheistI'm absolutely convinced that their editors would like to discuss with you about this intepretation...


This "Graf Case" is strange one and I don't have explanation for it. There are several questions which I need reliable answers before I can even dream of explaining this:
- Why it took so long to anyone to take action?
- At my understanding in U.S. military officer/enlistee retires on that rank where he/she last performed satisfactorily. If that is case then why Ms. Graf retires at rank of captain (O-6)?
- Why board of inquiry recommendation of 'general discharge' was dismissed?
- Why whole process took so long?

[Tribesman]

Agreed. Thats their explanation. I don't know their sources so I'm not qualified to comment whether its correct or not.

It couldn't be correct as it is plainly self contradictory, as for their sources two you used appear very intertwined and both have the same third source which not only goes through the same self contradictory explanations but also takes her own case and as well as doing the selfcontradictory arguements manages to argue that exactly the opposite is the case....ie the navy is a miscogenistic racist unpolitcally correct dinosaur from the dark ages.

May I ask what is your explanation?
she screwed up and was dealt with in the normal manner.





I would say its probably just the way its done and the way its always been done.
Why it took so long to anyone to take action?

Process, it makes a long drawn out affair.
If that is case then why Ms. Graf retires at rank of captain (O-6)?

She was removed from her position, not demoted.
Why board of inquiry recommendation of 'general discharge' was dismissed
Now thats a question.

[gi_dan2987]

You have evidence of these crimes and you didn't report it to the JAG? Why?

Me and numerous other members within the company and platoon gathered any and all evidence and reported it to JAG ASAP once we reached our demob base at Ft. McCoy, WI. They took the information and claimed to have conducted an investigation, but as soon as we got back to MN (we were MN Army National Guard troops that had been Federally activated for service in Iraq) the company was disbanded and any records regarding the deployment were scrapped except for records on medals and awards earned while in combat.

The commander got promoted to a new unit, and the NCO's in question had no paper trail to follow them back to their respective units within the state once we were back to inactive duty. Beyond that I don't know what became of those individuals. I think it was just swept under the rug.

I found out later that our commander and 1SG were so bad that our deployment had to be cut short even though the 2007 surge was going on at the time. While other units were being extended, we were getting a one way ticket home. We were the hot potato company, nobody wanted us around due to our poor leadership.

That's pretty much the long and short of it. I served as an E4(SPC) Infantryman with B. Co. 1-194, 34th ID (Red Bulls) MNARNG from 2004-2008. I was supposed to be in until 2010, but I took an administrative leave due to complications with my fiance and personal life at the time, and the legal issues surrounding the deployment. The crappy part was they offered the admin discharge, but then used that to void my educational benefits later when I applied for school in 2010.

I've been so disgruntled with the government and Army both for their dastard acts that I've even hated going to the VA for my regular physicals. It just seems as if they've only got one thing they focus on, and that's lining their own pockets and protecting their reputation.

[Platapus]

It still pays to come from the Academy I guess.

Can I get a ring knock from everyone?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

she screwed up and was dealt with in the normal manner.


I would say its probably just the way its done and the way its always been done.Really? From 20 March 2008 to 13 January 2010 she was the commanding officer of the USS Cowpens and before that, from 20 April 2002 to 6 February 2004 she was the commanding officer of USS Winston S. Churchill. Those incidents for which she was finally relieved of command range from 2002 to 2010 and during that time she was also promoted from commander (O-5) to captain (O-6). Grounding a ship, choking a visiting foreign naval officer, insulting your subordinates, using them as "practice targets"... Are you really seriously telling to me that that this is "business as usual"? If so then evidence please.

Process, it makes a long drawn out affair.If you mean process after relieving her from command then I agree that its possible (check case below). Otherwise, no.

She was removed from her position, not demoted.Demotion and determination of retirement rank are not same thing. Retirement rank is (as said before) determined by what was the last rank where person performed satisfactorily. Here is example: Air Force Colonel (O-6) Michael D. Murphy, a lawyer, was forced to retire after it was revealed that when he joined military in 1980's he didn't tell that his law license in Texas was suspended and propably going to be revoked. When he retired he retired in rank where he last performed satisfactorily. In his case that meant day when his license was revoked by Texas authorities. Guess what was his retirement rank (and rank by which he gets pension)? First Lieutenant (O-2). Full story is available here (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_murphy_031310w/).

I will return to this in morning when I'm awake again. Good night (or day).

[Stealhead]

You have evidence of these crimes and you didn't report it to the JAG? Why?


I agree with you on that.Things are never fair in the military nor anywhere else for that matter.I am thinking more of cases where an example was made on someone where they really should have received a lesser punishment.

The things mentioned by gi_dan2987 if they are true then someone failed to do the correct action that should have been reported to the CO and then if he did nothing further up the chain very few units are fully loaded with bad apples but a unit could have too many people who do not take action when they should who is self serving then the person who did the crime or the one who did not report the crime?

@ gi_dan2987 How did you get denied you veteran rights? You served well past the requirement and you served well past the length of time to receive an honorable discharge you should have received a hardship discharge unless you got a general discharge which you could only receive for poor behavior something does not sound correct you should have revived an honorable discharge and the reason listed should have been hardship.I no legal expert on this but something sounds way off you need to speak with a lawyer or someone who has in depth knowledge about this stuff.

As to the GI bill:
"In all cases, the ADMGIB expires 10 years after discharge or retirement. To be eligible, one must have an honorable discharge (general, under honorable conditions do not qualify). To retain MGIB benefits after discharge, in most cases, one must serve at least 36 months of active duty, if they had a 4 year active duty contract, or at least 24 months of active duty, if they signed up for a 2 or 3 year active duty contract (there are some exceptions to this rule)". Surely you got the 36 months from 2004-2008.You need to speak with VA.If you should have recived an honorable which I am pretty sure you should have then you will be eligible.You need to appeal your general discharge and get it changed.This is all assuming that you did not have bad conduct during your service in which case they can give you a general discharge but not for a hardship reason alone I am not sure how they determine honorable vs. general on hardship discharge for financial reasons.You need to find out for sure because if it was incorrect it can be changed.

[Tribesman]

Kraznyi.
Are you really seriously telling to me that that this is "business as usual"? If so then evidence please.

Look at the pile of cases in your provided links(OK avoid the real crazy link as people are getting the same treatment because of who they are and who thay are not and what they did and what they didn't and because the people are this that and the other or all three at once while being neither while the other people are this that and the other too :doh:)...which means you have already provided all the "business as usual" evidence you could possibly require.


If you mean process after relieving her from command then I agree that its possible (check case below). Otherwise, no.

As I said check out any of the others, or as you "check below" provide one that is even more drawn out and goes on for decades then I must ask how you can possibly say "Otherwise, no" at all?


Demotion and determination of retirement rank are not same thing. Retirement rank is (as said before) determined by what was the last rank where person performed satisfactorily. Here is example:
Look at your examples, he was never able to perform satisfactorily in the job he was assigned as he never fitted the bill so he goes out with the same rank he had when he got the job he couldn't perform, she however was able to perform satisfactorily on every occasion when she wasn't screwing up.

[August]

I no legal expert on this but something sounds way off you need to speak with a lawyer or someone who has in depth knowledge about this stuff.

Agree 100%. If you were denied your benefits without good reason you can petition to get them back. See your towns veterans representative. He can help you.

[Stealhead]

Agree 100%. If you were denied your benefits without good reason you can petition to get them back. See your towns veterans representative. He can help you.


I know that some government and VA can be a pain but you can find people that will help you many VA employees are vets themselves and they will be very willing to help you the best they can if you have be done wrong.Personally I have had no trouble with my local VA reps and even if you do you can go somewhere else there is a VA office in every county in the US just be honest with them.

[gi_dan2987]

I know that some government and VA can be a pain but you can find people that will help you many VA employees are vets themselves and they will be very willing to help you the best they can if you have be done wrong.Personally I have had no trouble with my local VA reps and even if you do you can go somewhere else there is a VA office in every county in the US just be honest with them.

I just dug up my paperwork. I guess I didn't really read into it all that hard when I received it at the time. I was told I was getting an administrative discharge, which I assumed would be an honorable for hardship, when in reality they gave me a General under honorable conditions discharge. I guess that's why I'm not getting my GI Bill. I wonder if I can get any education benefits at all.

I have a 40% disability from my service in Iraq, and I never went AWOL from my time on active duty. I have medals of commendation and the paperwork to prove it, but because I wanted out once I got back on inactive guard status, the commander told me one thing and did another. I don't know what I did to deserve that, but I suppose not doing one weekend a month for the remaining two years was bad enough. You see I've just been trying to start my life with a fresh slate. That time overseas is time I want to forget, including my time in the Army and dealing with the VA. I want to attend school for business finance with a minor in accounting and taxes. That's all I want, and I'll use what tools I have to get it I suppose, GI bill or not.

[Sailor Steve]

II was told I was getting an administrative discharge, which I assumed would be an honorable for hardship, when in reality they gave me a General under honorable conditions discharge. I guess that's why I'm not getting my GI Bill. I wonder if I can get any education benefits at all.
I too, recieved a 'General under Honorable Conditions' discharge, but I did recieve full Veteran's benefits. I wonder what changed and when?

[gi_dan2987]

I too, recieved a 'General under Honorable Conditions' discharge, but I did recieve full Veteran's benefits. I wonder what changed and when?

Yeah I don't know. All I know is that the government sure gets tight fingers with their pennies when veterans come a knockin. But boy when it's tax time, johnny middle class better not skimp uncle sam his due or else. Its all about money retention. tax taken-tax paid=profit margin. goal of US government is to increase the bottom line, that can only be done by increasing exhibit A, while decreasing Exhibit B.

Uncle Sam, the VA, and the Army can all kiss my rear. I'm so sick and tired of tiptoeing through the tulips with these jerks. I just wanna start my civilian life on a clean slate, and put Iraq and the Army behind me. I got a steady girlfriend now (first one since my fiance and I split back in 2008) and things are going well. I'm going to school even if I have to do it the civilian way.

To be honest, playing Silent Hunter has really helped my sanity during these times of unemployment. Thinking hard about something other than what's going on in my own life tends to calm me down. I put a lot of effort into devising mathematical formulas for fancy ways of obtaining fire solutions.

By the way Sailor Steve, were you a Navy man?

[Stealhead]

Sailor Steve what does it say under your character of service? You where in the Navy during the end years of Vietnam right? You may have been part of a Reduction in Force (RIF it might say on your 214).Or if you received a medical I think they are listed as general discharges but you get full benefits.I am basing this on info found on VA sites though you'd have to ask them.Not to be asking too personal a question you don't have to answer but I think you can have an idea the answer to your question.

gi_dan2987 should speak with the VA though if you explain to them your situation they may be able to help you I am pretty sure you can have a General Discharge that resulted in loss of certain benefits appealed to an honorable I am not sure though you will have to talk to some people at the VA and find out.It is very possible that someone should have told you to appeal your discharge after a certain amount time but forgot to tell you lucky for you there is no limit to how long it can have been after getting discharged to appeal but you want to hurry if it gets changed the 10 year time limit for the GI Bill might still apply.I did my final out processing at MacDill AFB and they really sucked thank god the VA person and the personal flight in Germany was very good.

Do not let anyone screw you out what you should rightfully be receiving that stuff is your right do not let anyone cheat you out of it.Even if it is frustrating you get one on them if you push through it.Get into contact with some veterans groups as well they might know the people who can help you.

[gi_dan2987]

I appreciate the info. I'll push ahead and see what I can do. Does anybody know why this site is all in German? Or did something get switched around in my settings?

[Falkirion]

Are the writers on militarycorruption.com all women hating men? Very one sided tone. But then thats journalism these days, you either get one side or the other, not the impartial writing that you need to make up your own mind. Just a thing about the press that irks me.

[Sailor Steve]

By the way Sailor Steve, were you a Navy man?
:rotfl2:

Sorry, you couldn't know. You're new, but those who have been through all this before are going to hate me for this.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Bbassturret.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/SailorSteve.jpg

[gi_dan2987]

[QUOTE=Sailor Steve;1829818]:rotfl2:

Sorry, you couldn't know. You're new, but those who have been through all this before are going to hate me for this.

HAHA. Naw that's cool. Yeah I was well acquainted with the M2 .50 BMG. All of our humvees ran with the ma deuce on the turret. What was your ship and your job? I would guess you were on some kind of cruiser? Forgive me if I'm wrong, I wasn't a Navy man, but I do seem to have quite the interest in the Navy. Maybe I would have fared better there, but then again maybe not. I'm 6'2" and 270 pounds. I got into weight lifting after the Army, so now I'm well nourished unlike the Army days lol. Do you think I would ever fit inside a submarine? BTW, I don't know if you got this before but, why is Subsim all written in German? Is that something in my settings?

[Sailor Steve]

What was your ship and your job? I would guess you were on some kind of cruiser? Forgive me if I'm wrong, I wasn't a Navy man, but I do seem to have quite the interest in the Navy.
I was a radioman, and the ship was a destroyer, USS Brinkley Bass, DD-887, a Gearing class built in 1945, and rebuilt and still in service in 1970, when those pictures were taken. Quite a bit smaller than a cruiser.

Here are some more I took way back then.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/bbass-1.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Bbass4.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Bbass2.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/bbass-5.jpg
Too much too fast.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/bbass-4.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Bbass5-1.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/bbass-6.jpg

[gi_dan2987]

Yeah DD's look considerably smaller than the larger vessels. So regarding realism..... could a DD turn fast enough to avoid a torpedo fired within 1000 yards? I like to try attacking DD's sometimes in SH4, but they turn on a dime at moments notice, then the chase is on.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Kraznyi.

Look at the pile of cases in your provided links(OK avoid the real crazy link as people are getting the same treatment because of who they are and who thay are not and what they did and what they didn't and because the people are this that and the other or all three at once while being neither while the other people are this that and the other too :doh:)...which means you have already provided all the "business as usual" evidence you could possibly require.Tribesman, that site's name is MilitaryCorruption.com not reasonsforreliefofcommand.com. It talks about cases which, at least in their opinion, are unjust not every single case of relief of command in United States Armed Forces.

As I said check out any of the others, or as you "check below" provide one that is even more drawn out and goes on for decades then I must ask how you can possibly say "Otherwise, no" at all?

Look at your examples, he was never able to perform satisfactorily in the job he was assigned as he never fitted the bill so he goes out with the same rank he had when he got the job he couldn't perform,True. she however was able to perform satisfactorily on every occasion when she wasn't screwing up.So we should be nice and just dismiss every screw up? Choking, violence, insults (one resulting order to write formal apology), running ship a ground... should we dismiss all these and just say that "she was able to perform satisfactorily on every occasion when she wasn't screwing up"? :doh: Sorry but I think this is matter where we strongly disagree.

EDIT: Rewrote latter part of response as I somehow managed to miss important part of Tribesman response.

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, that site's name is MilitaryCorruption.com not reasonsforreliefofcommand.com. It talks about cases which, at least in their opinion, are unjust not every single case of relief of command in United States Armed Forces.

Yes, and they argue about those cases they think are unfair, like..... people being fired for being a woman, people being fired for not being a woman, people not being fired for being a woman and people not being fired for not being a woman.
Like I said two of your links are shared sources and both use a third source(in addition to the two military sources which all three dispute).
I do like MacDonalds take on the child sex one...come on give the chaplain a break, he has a drink problem and had been in afghanistan, he was only jerking off on camera to a supposed 14 year old its not like they had real sex, what is it with these wild dog JAGs? who among us can cast the first stone? what about his poor wife and kids while he is in prison?:doh:
nice opinions eh, do you agree with their take on "unjust" cases?

but you seem to miss one difference
I see you picked up on the difference after you wrote your piece, quite a coincidence really as "doctor" was going to be the example I used if you tried to defend his performance as a lawyer.

Tribesman, have you actually read any of those articles I have linked here?
No when someone links to a site like two of those four that I absolutely refuse to read any of it as it may make me laugh too much, instead I prefer to guess at what they say and guess at any links between Keating MacDonald and Syneeda then simply make stuff up about what I think they write as no-one would be posting a link to their writings to prove me wrong:hmmm:
It does raise the question though, did you actually read those links you are posting?
I mean seriously didn't the truther and other conspiracy nut links set the alarms ringing?

[Tribesman]

Aaaarrggghhhh you edited again.:damn:

OK I see your point, which goes all the way back to ....
Now thats a question.
As there are two proceses both of which are correct even though they are different.
The way that was chosen is quicker simpler and final, the other could be drawn out even further, made far more complicated and still be open for a revisit.
Think of it this way, it is just a typical everyday case of "early retirement" like you find anywhere in the public sector(in the private sector it wouldn't even get a mention even though it is just as common).

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

First my apology that I missed this part of your response: "as he never fitted the bill". I reviewed my post but you were fast enough to respond to my flawed response.Yes, and they argue about those cases they think are unfair, like..... people being fired for being a woman, people being fired for not being a woman, people not being fired for being a woman and people not being fired for not being a woman.I have not read most articles by Mr. MacDonald and his colleagues. I have read only that one in first post and with less extensively that one from where that picture is from. Most of information what I have about Ms. Graf is from other sources. I don't agree with all they write I only linked them there as I thought it being best to give people as many sources as possible to let them make their own conclusions.
Like I said two of your links are shared sources and both use a third source(in addition to the two military sources which all three dispute).I originally posted four links. Did you forget one of them or am I misunderstanding you?
I do like MacDonalds take on the child sex one...come on give the chaplain a break, he has a drink problem and had been in afghanistan, he was only jerking off on camera to a supposed 14 year old its not like they had real sex, what is it with these wild dog JAGs? who among us can cast the first stone? what about his poor wife and kids while he is in prison?:doh:
nice opinions eh, do you agree with their take on "unjust" cases?I'm not familiar with those cases nor have I read those articles so I don't start arguing about them.


I see you picked up on the difference after you wrote your piece, quite a coincidence really as "doctor" was going to be the example I used if you tried to defend his performance as a lawyer.That part was based on my quite impressively massive misreading of your response.


No when someone links to a site like two of those four that I absolutely refuse to read any of it as it may make me laugh too much, instead I prefer to guess at what they say and guess at any links between Keating MacDonald and Syneeda then simply make stuff up about what I think they write as no-one would be posting a link to their writings to prove me wrong:hmmm:
It does raise the question though, did you actually read those links you are posting?
I mean seriously didn't the truther and other conspiracy nut links set the alarms ringing?...and that question where you answered here was more directed toward that article about Col. Murphy which I assumed you hadn't read due my misreading of your response. My apologies for that. But about your response... Thank you for your opinion. I personally favour to not comment at all if I don't read articles, in my opinion guessing is not very good way to go in discussion on sources.

That "truther" and "nutter" thing... that would set alarm bells ringing would they be only ones publishing this kind of opinion. However they are not (feel free to Google if you are ready to really read) though they tend to express their opinion in more restrained manner.

EDIT: Tribesman, we should propably figure out somekind responding/editing turn order system...

[Tribesman]

I originally posted four links. Did you forget one of them or am I misunderstanding you?

four links, two are reporting the story, two are taking "serious" issue with it, both of the latter two are linked to each other and have a third common source doing its take on the story.

As an aside on the links, a long time ago the fourth link you used was pretty much the only newspaper I could get at work.

I personally favour to not comment at all if I don't read articles, in my opinion guessing is not very good way to go in discussion on sources.

Indeed.

However they are not (feel free to Google if you are ready to really read) though they tend to express their opinion in more restrained manner.

At a quick glance it appears many of them are taking their "facts" on the story straight from the loony site, unless of course they are providing the link to MacDonalds story just as a laugh.

[danny60]

I'm curious as to how long this "abuse of command" has gone on for?
Sure, I could understand yelling at a crewman for not doing their job, but physical abuse? I didn't realise the US navy operated in the 18th century. :nope:
Just out of curisoty, I wounder which DD won the dragrace? :arrgh!:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I continued searching for information about Captain Holly Graf and I found this (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly-graf-part-1/) blog which analyzes Inspector General's report. I strongly recommend reading it as it gives very different view on her. Here are few things I felt to be important.

1. There have been several allegations on Captain Graf's ability to command safely (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly-graf-part-3/), some of which I have included in my posts. However according to blog linked above Inspector General's report contains following detail.[redacted], has 19+ years in the Navy and previously served as a [redacted]. He is a qualified [redacted] that served on Cowpens for the entire length of Graf’s Command tour stated, “I never seen her put the ship in an unsafe environment; I can honestly say that.”This of course does not invalidate allegations regarding Captain Graf's performance when in command of USS Winston S. Churchill but casts doubt on them.

2. On allegations of her ordering junior officer to play piano (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly-graf-part-5/) in her christmas party. The IG found this allegation was substantiated by the evidence.
I think this allegation demonstrates just what a fine line CO’s have to walk with their JOs. Unlike the recent situation onboard the USS Wasp (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.blogspot.com/2010/02/co-of-uss-wasp-took-kickbacks.html), this is far less clear cut. However as I’ve repeatedly said we have to hold our officers to the highest standards, the great control they have over their subordinates means that the risk of abuse is great. The JO in question felt that she couldn’t say no to the Graf’s request which makes me wonder if the overall environment on the Cowpens would have been better would this particular allegation been resolved differently.
Finally, make sure you don't miss blog's conlusion (http://admiraltymaritimelaw.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/navy-inspector-generals-report-on-holly-graf-part-7-and-8-plus-final-thoughts/) of Captain Holly Graf.

I will continue digging and see if I'm able to obtain that Inspector General's report from somewhere. It would certainly be interesting read.

[Oberon]

It depends on what you class as physical abuse I guess. If I were in the armed forces I'd expect to get the odd hazing, I've read reports of tank commanders giving the driver a boot in the back of the head if he fouled up, or using an implement to give him a quick jab. Likewise they found ways to get their own back from time to time.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I didn't realise the US navy operated in the 18th century. :nope:


Of a fashion, they did. But only just. :doh:

[Oberon]

Of a fashion, they did. But only just. :doh:

Too bloody well...

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/img/constitution2.jpg

:nope:

[August]

Too bloody well...

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/img/constitution2.jpg

:nope:

Too be honest it wasn't really a fair fight. They were both considered "frigates" but there the comparisons ended.

Guerriere
1092 tons
Crew 272
30ea 18lb guns
16ea 32lb carronades
526lb broadside

Constitution
1576 tons
Crew 450
30ea 24lb guns
20ea 32lb carronades
950lb broadside

It'd be like me picking a fight with Mike Tyson. :salute:

[gi_dan2987]

Too be honest it wasn't really a fair fight. They were both considered "frigates" but there the comparisons ended.

Guerriere
1092 tons
Crew 272
30ea 18lb guns
16ea 32lb carronades
526lb broadside

Constitution
1576 tons
Crew 450
30ea 24lb guns
20ea 32lb carronades
950lb broadside

It'd be like me picking a fight with Mike Tyson. :salute:
The early days of the US Navy was mostly comprised of sloops and carronade frigates. We couldn't afford to build those ships of the line such as the Santisima Trinidad :arrgh!:

[August]

The early days of the US Navy was mostly comprised of sloops and carronade frigates. We couldn't afford to build those ships of the line such as the Santisima Trinidad :arrgh!:

Actually we could build them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_Hampshire_%281864%29), just not in the numbers necessary to go toe to toe with the Royal Navy. But having said that the Consitution and her three sister ships were a huge technological advance in Naval Warfare.

[gi_dan2987]

Actually we could build them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_Hampshire_%281864%29), just not in the numbers necessary to go toe to toe with the Royal Navy. But having said that the Consitution and her three sister ships were a huge technological advance in Naval Warfare.

Amen to that. I know we had the resources, just not the treasury correct? On a side note, I just noticed I got stuck on shore leave? What does that mean? Those algorithms must be really complex :har:

[Oberon]

Don't forget that you guys also had the first battle between Ironclads. :yep: Made us drop production of wooden hulled ships.

[gi_dan2987]

Don't forget that you guys also had the first battle between Ironclads. :yep: Made us drop production of wooden hulled ships.
Ah an Englishman! Welcome aboard my fellow Israelite and brother :salute: My mother married a man from Liverpool and now lives there with him. He's a good man to her, better than my father ever was.

Now back to this wonderful discussion. The Royal Navy has always been feared at sea, and rightfully so. How blessed is a nation that can hold the gates of Her enemies at the far corners of the earth, and control the resources on the sea trade lanes the world over.

I just got done reading about the HMS Bounty, and the mutiny that befell Captain Bligh. What astonished me was the fact that they survived the grueling journey down to the tropical south pacific from England in the first place. Then in a small life boat loaded to the gunwales, drifted across the Coral Sea to Batavia. Most modern seafarers would complain about such a voyage, think about doing it in a square rig only traveling 4 knots!

One ship I would love to see is the HMS Victory. Such an astonishing symbol of raw naval power. :arrgh!:

[Sailor Steve]

Don't forget that you guys also had the first battle between Ironclads. :yep: Made us drop production of wooden hulled ships.
Actually your own Warrior was iron-hulled and predated Virginia and Monitor (both of which were iron sheeting over wood hulls) by almost two years. The British and French used ironclad floating batteries in the seige of Sevastopol five years before that, in 1855.

And nobody stopped using wooden hulled ships entirely for another twenty years.

[Sailor Steve]

Actually we could build them, just not in the numbers necessary to go toe to toe with the Royal Navy. But having said that the Consitution and her three sister ships were a huge technological advance in Naval Warfare.
Two. :O:

[August]

Two. :O:

Originally it was four 44 gun and two 38 gun Frigates but three were never completed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_six_frigates_of_the_United_States_Navy

[Sailor Steve]

Originally it was four 44 gun and two 38 gun Frigates but three were never completed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_six_frigates_of_the_United_States_Navy
Which three were never completed? Constitution, Constellation and United States were the first three. President, the third 44, was certainly completed because she was the one captured by the British. Congress, the second 38, saw good service in the Barbary war and the war of 1812. Chesapeake, the "fourth 44", was the ship captured by HMS Leopard in 1807 in the "impressment" incident I wrote the 200th anniversary article on. She was also the "Don't give up the ship" ship captured in the fight with Shannon.

Further, though Chesapeake is listed as a "44" in the article, the evidence seems to be that this was on paper only. As launched she was actually smaller than the other two 38s, and there is no way she could ever have carried 44 guns. So she was never a "sister" to the three big 44s.

[Oberon]

Ah an Englishman! Welcome aboard my fellow Israelite and brother :salute: My mother married a man from Liverpool and now lives there with him. He's a good man to her, better than my father ever was.

Now back to this wonderful discussion. The Royal Navy has always been feared at sea, and rightfully so. How blessed is a nation that can hold the gates of Her enemies at the far corners of the earth, and control the resources on the sea trade lanes the world over.

I just got done reading about the HMS Bounty, and the mutiny that befell Captain Bligh. What astonished me was the fact that they survived the grueling journey down to the tropical south pacific from England in the first place. Then in a small life boat loaded to the gunwales, drifted across the Coral Sea to Batavia. Most modern seafarers would complain about such a voyage, think about doing it in a square rig only traveling 4 knots!

One ship I would love to see is the HMS Victory. Such an astonishing symbol of raw naval power. :arrgh!:

Aye, they're not all bad, Liverpudlians, my Nan used to have quite a good few friends up there. Good to hear your Mum found a good bloke. :salute:
Speaking of the Royal Navy, HMS Dauntless is heading down to the Falklands. That'll go down well with Buenos Aires. :dead:

Ah, yes Steve, HMS Warrior, alas not the first Iron hulled warship, but probably one of the few surviving ones. Thank God for Phillip and the Maritime Trust.

[August]

Which three were never completed? Constitution, Constellation and United States were the first three. President, the third 44, was certainly completed because she was the one captured by the British. Congress, the second 38, saw good service in the Barbary war and the war of 1812. Chesapeake, the "fourth 44", was the ship captured by HMS Leopard in 1807 in the "impressment" incident I wrote the 200th anniversary article on. She was also the "Don't give up the ship" ship captured in the fight with Shannon.

Further, though Chesapeake is listed as a "44" in the article, the evidence seems to be that this was on paper only. As launched she was actually smaller than the other two 38s, and there is no way she could ever have carried 44 guns. So she was never a "sister" to the three big 44s.

I stand corrected. Apparently they were eventually finished.

[gi_dan2987]

Aye, they're not all bad, Liverpudlians, my Nan used to have quite a good few friends up there. Good to hear your Mum found a good bloke. :salute:
Speaking of the Royal Navy, HMS Dauntless is heading down to the Falklands. That'll go down well with Buenos Aires. :dead:

Yeah he's a good bloke :O: His slang terminology always has me guessing as to what he's saying. The guy talks so fast and with such a thick Liverpool accent that often times I just stare and blink while I try to comprehend. She's happy, otherwise she would be here in the states and not there with him. When I finally make it over there, I want to visit Caernarfon castle and the Royal Welch Fusiliers museum.

Which three were never completed? Constitution, Constellation and United States were the first three. President, the third 44, was certainly completed because she was the one captured by the British. Congress, the second 38, saw good service in the Barbary war and the war of 1812. Chesapeake, the "fourth 44", was the ship captured by HMS Leopard in 1807 in the "impressment" incident I wrote the 200th anniversary article on. She was also the "Don't give up the ship" ship captured in the fight with Shannon.

"I have not yet begun to fight!" John Paul Jones, Captain, Commanding USS Bonhomme Richard in action against HMS Serapis at Flambourough Head, 23SEP1779

[soopaman2]

Comparing American fleet at the time of the USS Constitution to the grand navy of Britain is unfair.

Comparing ourselves to a nation who had a 500 year+ head start on us experience wise?

It is arrogant. Fleet to Fleet we would have been crushed. We are lucky France kept most their navy occupied through our infancy

But the Constitution made a statement. Yes, a huge one!

It was one of the early signs that we could stand up on our own as a nation. Small, but so well built, damn hard to sink, and resilient as hell! Just as our nation was at the time.

We have grown since then, and enough time has passed where I can say we have as proud and tested Naval Tradition as Britain.