View Full Version : The Human cost of Apple's success
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/the-human-cost-of-apples-success-20120126-1qjyy.html
So what will either China or the US do about this? Sod all I'll bet.:nope:
And let's not solely point the finger at Apple, China and the US here - this is the cost of the globalized economy and the consumer lifestyle that many of us enjoy. Apple is just a good example of how to be successful in creating demand for a moderately expensive luxury (the use value of which is actually low) while manufacturing it at a very low price and with little accountability to the public (who are themselves happy to buy into the product). They win because at the end of the year, everybody still wants one of their trinkets under the Christmas tree. What are we gonna do about that?
Vote with your dollars and don't buy into marketing and peer pressure, that's what I say. But remember that Apple's just a tip of the iceberg here.
Tchocky
01-28-12, 07:32 PM
More like what will *we* do about it. If we want cheap electronics, then this will continue.
Tip of the iceberg really, when you think about the minerals from DRC that make our mobile phones etc, and Apple are hardly the only company that employs companies like Foxconn.
That said, this kind of story really shuts up the Apple missionaries nice and quickly.
...I like how me and Tchocky were thinking the exact same thing at the same time :o (what with 'we' and 'tip of the iceberg', even)
krashkart
01-28-12, 07:47 PM
The early years of the industrial revolution were much like this, right? :06:
Before fire codes and all that...
Tchocky
01-28-12, 08:09 PM
...I like how me and Tchocky were thinking the exact same thing at the same time :o (what with 'we' and 'tip of the iceberg', even)
Great Scott!
The early years of the industrial revolution were much like this, right? :06:
Before fire codes and all that...
My thoughts also, seems to be a rerun of our past. next will come unions.
It's not really a rerun, it's just a continuation of the same processes. Unions, workplace safety, guaranteed standard of living are all good, but who is going to pay for it? Who's gonna provide the affordable commodities that a healthy middle class thrives on?
China's already beginning to court Africa, as though almost for the same purpose. And so the cycle of exploitation continues.
It's very difficult to see a sustainable and fair world where everyone owns an iPod and companies like Apple continue to make billions on marginally-useful things that everyone wants to get their hands on, at the expense of cheap labour and others' suffering. But that's nothing new, just a continuation of what's been going on pretty much forever. People have always believed that something - be it power, religion or level of civilized development - entitled them to take advantage of the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, the only difference is scale.
nikimcbee
01-28-12, 09:41 PM
Sweet, a tech discussion.:woot:
They just had a great discussion regarding the subject on the radio, why tech jobs are (atleast regarding apple) going to China.:dead: Basically it's because of the regulations and lack of skilled US workers:dead: (according to the apple dude in conversation). He said it was just too much work to to meet apple's business needs here in the US. One of his examples was the army of engineers it takes to develope the product. He said it would take around 9 months fill the engineering postions if done in the US, in China, they filled the needs in 15 days!:o
It's not really a rerun, it's just a continuation of the same processes. Unions, workplace safety, guaranteed standard of living are all good, but who is going to pay for it? Who's gonna provide the affordable commodities that a healthy middle class thrives on?
It's not a union thing either. I can't vouche for China, but Korea is unionized and they get worked like dogs and they have minimum safety standards. And even Korea is shifting to China because it is easier (cheaper) to do business. The tech industry is mainly (afaik) not unionized, so if they did unionize, I guaranty the tech industry would never come back to the US. They would simply price themselves out of a job.
nikimcbee
01-28-12, 09:42 PM
regarding unions, I think the Western definition of a union and the Asian definition of a union are 2 different things.:dead:
AVGWarhawk
01-28-12, 09:58 PM
Workplace conditions and safety are who's responsibility?
nikimcbee
01-28-12, 11:03 PM
Workplace conditions and safety are who's responsibility?
:haha: My safety training says mine.
Schroeder
01-29-12, 06:58 AM
The early years of the industrial revolution were much like this, right? :06:
Before fire codes and all that...
There's a little difference. Back then the transportation of goods was expensive. Therefore unions could form and force the employers to raise the safety standards, wages etc. because he wanted to produce in his country (mostly at least). If you rise up today your boss will just move to the next low cost country and ship his stuff from there.
Ducimus
01-29-12, 07:31 AM
Workplace conditions and safety are who's responsibility?
In this case, China's. This article i think isn't just about apple. Its probably the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Do people ever pause to wonder why EVERYTHING IS MADE IN CHINA? Cheap labor with a strong work ethic, and little to no labor laws that protect the employees.
In other words China is how big corporations love the labor. Work hard, work for peanuts on the dollar, and no annoying laws to deal with. Until China fixes that for themselves, the outlook for their people will never improve. Of course, China is, also, at its core, a communist country, so its highly unlikely the people will change their lives for the better like other industralized nations did long ago. If anyone remembers, while they don't serve much function now, Labor unions were originally formed because of deplorable conditions.
AVGWarhawk
01-29-12, 08:57 AM
Exactly Ducimus. But like anything else the media pins a companies ills on the entity that happens to contract work with said company. Just another sweat shop article. I'm guessing the author of this article is using a Mac to write it. Epitome of stupidity. Sure, its the tip of the iceberg. Apple just happens to be the Titanic in this article.
They are better of than they would be without the work. "Sweatshops" are a phase the first world went through. It's China's turn, so what?
The extent to which things are worse in China is a function of their evil system of government (yes, "evil," unless you don't consider the murder of ~75 million of their own by the state "evil," in which go ahead, argue).
It's very difficult to see a sustainable and fair world where everyone owns an iPod and companies like Apple continue to make billions on marginally-useful things that everyone wants to get their hands on, at the expense of cheap labour and others' suffering. But that's nothing new, just a continuation of what's been going on pretty much forever. People have always believed that something - be it power, religion or level of civilized development - entitled them to take advantage of the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, the only difference is scale.
Are you saying that west is exploiting china?
Maybe you should check it out with Chinese government and workers in western countries who are jobless while china creates loads of jobs for its people -getting reach and gaining manufacturing technologies.
If anyone its us that gets screwed over ...just so we could buy the IPhone 100$ cheaper but not too cheap because its cheap.
China has good reason to be so generous the overseas companies.
Look at what china was 30 years ago and how it is today-i think they do pretty good job.
nikimcbee
01-29-12, 12:48 PM
Look at what china was 30 years ago and how it is today-i think they do pretty good job.
Ain't that the truth!
Takeda Shingen
01-29-12, 12:54 PM
They are better of than they would be without the work. "Sweatshops" are a phase the first world went through. It's China's turn, so what?
If you consider the time from when the first peasant plowed the first land owner's field until the creation of our modern labor laws a 'phase'. All the sweatshop did was to industrialize what was the human condidtion from time immemorial. If anything, our modern concept of fairness and equity is the phase.
If you consider the time from when the first peasant plowed the first land owner's field until the creation of our modern labor laws a 'phase'. All the sweatshop did was to industrialize what was the human condidtion from time immemorial. If anything, our modern concept of fairness and equity is the phase.
Very true. We (or me, anyway) sort of forget the short, brutal nature of the majority of human existence (in time, if not numbers of humans).
There was a This American Life where a guy went to the Foxcon factory. The dude is a great storyteller, but he's clearly got an agenda. They had some good contrary POVs at the end at least.
Penguin
01-29-12, 03:14 PM
I doubt that the article will make one of the Apple disciples reconsider their purchases. Those who a willing to pay 50% more than for a comparable product are not willing to pay some cents per item for better labor standards?
This is about that much amount which would make a difference in work conditions over there. The Apple users always think of themselves as being part of a community. (Wow, you bought the same thing 100.000s have too, congratulations!) It seems that this community is only about consumerism, not some difference, "think different" is just an empty phrase.
A corporation which makes 40-50% profit margin, a number of which most store owner only can dream of, could easily afford to set standards, be a pacemaker. If you produce in a country like China, where the common worker has no rights, and enviromental and labor standards are absent, you make a willing decision to do so and to profit from this. So I am not willing to believe a word when the article states "Executives in Cupertino were shocked" - crocodile tears. They know where they produce their icrap.
Another point, especially for the Americans: what happened to the "Buy American"-campaign from the 80s which was more or less about Japans growing share in the American market. You launched a campaign back then but not today? The funny thing is, that Japan and the US played on the same, leveled field, as the safety standards and social laws were comparable.
How many people would have bought a product from the Soviet-Union back then? Mhh, I guess many would have done so, as the consumer seems to give a crap about supporting a dictatorship.
I also challenge a central theory of capitalism: There is no homo economicus, not in the way that he buys the best product for the best price, he just buys the cheapest. Foresight in terms of longevity seems to be unknown today, otherwise I can't explain China's success. The same lack of foresight is when people buy all their crap from Wall-Mart and wonder when their production jobs go the way of Marco Polo.
This is what makes it so bitter today: as a less well-off person you have nearly no choice than to buy your stuff from China. The poor here live off the exploitation of the poor in China :shifty:
This is about that much amount which would make a difference in work conditions over there. The Apple users always think of themselves as being part of a community. (Wow, you bought the same thing 100.000s have too, congratulations!) It seems that this community is only about consumerism, not some difference, "think different" is just an empty phrase.
I just love this legendary part in marketing bull****.:haha:
Penguin
01-29-12, 03:51 PM
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1082/funnydemotivationalpostnj.jpg
:D
Actually all of Apple's unique selling propositions are not manufactured in China: the design, the human–computer interaction (interface) and this shady "be part of a community"...
Stealhead
01-29-12, 03:59 PM
In this case, China's. This article i think isn't just about apple. Its probably the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Do people ever pause to wonder why EVERYTHING IS MADE IN CHINA? Cheap labor with a strong work ethic, and little to no labor laws that protect the employees.
Very true.I have a friend that just retired whose job was to go around to factories around the US and world and set up heavy machinery.HE went to China many times and explained that much of their factory equipment is old US gear that is considered too dangerous by OSHA.He said he once was on a Chinese factory floor checking on some recently set up presses.Chicom safety no guards on the press just tell the workers to time their movement as a team and avoid a crushing death only thing was in one team one guy was rather tall so he had an extra step to avoid being crushed.HE figured the guy would last a month or so at most before death or serious injury.
http://www.linkedin.com/news?aag=&actionBar=&articleID=5566799143352930322&ids=cjwPczwUdPcQdPkRczsSdzoRdiMSdPcUcjgNcPgMcj0Udz wSdzkRb3gOdPoQczcNejkNd34VdzsSdjkIdjATcj8Vdj0OcjgN dz0Ne3oRdiMOczcMcPAOdjcPd34VejsSdzkR&freq=1&trk=sgnl-0-trend-title-0
Its all about the money.
AVGWarhawk
01-29-12, 05:50 PM
http://www.linkedin.com/news?aag=&actionBar=&articleID=5566799143352930322&ids=cjwPczwUdPcQdPkRczsSdzoRdiMSdPcUcjgNcPgMcj0Udz wSdzkRb3gOdPoQczcNejkNd34VdzsSdjkIdjATcj8Vdj0OcjgN dz0Ne3oRdiMOczcMcPAOdjcPd34VejsSdzkR&freq=1&trk=sgnl-0-trend-title-0
Its all about the money.
In the end....yes.
the_tyrant
01-30-12, 11:09 AM
A corporation which makes 40-50% profit margin, a number of which most store owner only can dream of, could easily afford to set standards, be a pacemaker. If you produce in a country like China, where the common worker has no rights, and enviromental and labor standards are absent, you make a willing decision to do so and to profit from this. So I am not willing to believe a word when the article states "Executives in Cupertino were shocked" - crocodile tears. They know where they produce their icrap.
Apple's profit margin as a whole is 25.80%
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AAPL
Lets just (incorrectly) assume that it is the case on all of its products.
If I buy an Ipod touch at my local best buy for 200$, I can assume that the store and the distribution channels takes away around 50$
So apple gets 150$, and at 25% profit, they make 37.5$.
assume the whole production process for the ipod takes 2 hours from pre production to packaging.
in china, it costs 1$ per hour, while in my area minimum wage is 10$ is hour.
that means, for this ipod, the difference in wage alone would be 18$, and that is not counting the benefits companies give to their employees here, nor does it count the increased cost because of environmental costs and whatnot.
By moving production to Canada, apple has just effectively halved its profits.
Computers were produced in western countries before, when a laptop would set you back 3000$. at 25% profit, the computer company would make 750$, the difference in wages didn't matter much. Obviously, that is no longer the case.
Fujitsu, a company that always prided itself on being "made in Japan" has moved most of its production to China, only high end models are made in Japan. It is obvious in the pricing difference, the fujitsu computer I am typing this on right now is made in Japan, it is 200$ more expensive than a hp that is almost exactly the same that is made in China.
Ducimus
01-30-12, 12:42 PM
Another point, especially for the Americans: what happened to the "Buy American"-campaign from the 80s
Wallmart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI) happened.
No, Apple would not halve it's profit by moving to Canada. They'd keep the same markup, and the price would have to go up. Unless every other smart-phone maker or pad maker moved as well, they'd be out of business.
That's the reality.
It's like complaining about taking over a failing company, and firing most of the workers. The choice is not between keeping all the workers or firing half of them. It's between firing half and staying in business, or losing ALL the workers.
If all the "first world" companies agreed to pay western wages so they's stay in relative market position even with price increases, the chinese would simply start making their own for sale.
If a pad computer made like that was a few grand, and you could spend a grand in airfare, visit Hong Kong, and return with a $300 pad for the same price as the new iPad 9or less), what would you do?
As the commentary at the end of the TAL said, it's already changing in China the only way that will actually work. They have high turnover now, and this is not good. As they need to keep better workers, they need to improve conditions to retain them. As quality of life improves in china with this new found income stream, people will demand it at all levels. It's just a matter of time, and that's what will solve the perceived problem.
AVGWarhawk
01-30-12, 01:10 PM
Wallmart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI) happened.
Someone came up with really cool words....."Free trade."
Ducimus
01-30-12, 01:12 PM
Unions are illegal in China. Anyone found trying to unionize is sent to prison.
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-child-labor-2012-1
Go go gadget communism!
AVGWarhawk
01-30-12, 01:18 PM
The high price of free trade...
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp147/
And unions make US labor too expensive.
There is no even playing field. It is what it is.
Even though I didn't like the main story author on this american life (you'd likely like it, though: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory ), he makes a few great observations. One is that people imagine "stuff," particularly techno-stuff to me made by machines. Those same people bemoan the loss of artisanal, "hand-made" products from our history.
He points out that "everything is hand made." Those factories are filled with people doing everything on your iPhone by hand.
Even if the plant was in the US, it would have to be entirely automated. The number of jobs would be small. There is not any other possibility for it to be cost-effective. Yeah, they get paid $1/hr or something, but instead of one guy working for $75/hr running the iPod machine, they have 75 who ARE the iPod machine. They still get it done for less, since they don't have to buy the machine...
So we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs in china vs a few thousand if it were here (at most). And it would still have to cost more.
Even if the plant was in the US, it would have to be entirely automated. The number of jobs would be small. ...............
.
Its partially true.
The main factor is being competitive and making big money-cost effective.
The number of jobs would be smaller but still even automated plants need operators, maintenance, QC ,engineering ,technicians and logistics.
Not everything has to done by machines when it comes to assembly lines or needs to be done or can be done properly at reasonable costs .
There is also factor of flexibility.
Here is nokia plant.Yes.... they build they stuff in god forgotten places too.
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-71.jpg
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-81.jpg
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-9.jpg
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-10.jpg
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-14.jpg
http://zoom2web.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Nokia-Factory-Pictures-22.jpg
Penguin
01-30-12, 02:47 PM
Wallmart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI) happened.
:haha::wah: funny and sadly true at the same time
@tyrant: in my previous post, I wrote unclear, I meant the gross profit margin, which was 44.7% in Q1/2012 (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/24/apple-reports-best-quarter-ever-in-q1-2012-13-06-billion-profit-on-46-33-billion-in-revenue/), this is the number which was reported in the news last week, and which I had in mind. The gpm is also which would be fitting in the Apple example, as this is the one which illustrates the margin from the manufacturing costs - the other costs are not important for our example, as they are more or less the same, no matter where you produce.
To illustrate Apple's greed - I have no other fitting word for it, here are some numbers from the "classic" industry: Mercedes makes about 8%, BMW 6.3, Porsche about 15% (http://auto.t-online.de/gewinnspanne-wie-viel-die-deutschen-autobauer-pro-auto-verdienen/id_43470096/index sorry, german source only) In food retail the margin is about 1-2% :o
And unions make US labor too expensive.
There is no even playing field. It is what it is.
So do labor laws, environmental restrictions, etc...
So how to level the playing field? Tear down the grandstand, fire the stadium announcer and turn the turf into a mud field? Forget about all the improvements in the labor world where people fought and died for?
The sad truth is that they still would go for the cheapest field.
Here is another good article, it shows that it have not only been the labor costs/wages which drove Apple to outsource its production:
How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html)
A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company's dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames.
This has nothing to do with flexibility, which is an important and necessary factor in competitive industries. No, this is the demand to have semi-slaves. Do we really want to go back to this?
http://utopianist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/foxconn-factory-death-employee.jpg
That nokia plant is probably the size of a bathroom at foxconn ;)
That nokia plant is probably the size of a bathroom at foxconn ;)
As i said they build their stuff in places as well....have to be competitive which comes buck full circle as in Ducimus video.
On another hand i'm not that sorry for chinese workers.
Its true that slavery is there but average living conditions are on the rise all the time so in long run they might benefit from this all.
They are much better off than 30 years ago.
On another hand i'm not that sorry for chinese workers.
Its true that slavery is there but average living conditions are on the rise all the time so in long run they might benefit from this all.
They are much better off than 30 years ago.
...and that's the good old colonial lie that everybody used since I don't remember when. Which in many ways reflects the old imperialist logic by which this sort of globalized economy runs - it's just a nicer, more hands-off approach to exploitation justified by supposed long-term 'civilization' of the colonial subjects.
The really uncomfortable question is to ask whether they really ARE better off, or if that's just something we like to tell ourselves to make this easier to justify. All the easier when we are measuring 'better off' by 'somewhat more like us than they used to be', which is not a reliable measure by any means.
...and that's the good old colonial lie that everybody used since I don't remember when. Which in many ways reflect the imperialist logic by which this sort of globalized economy runs - it's just a nicer, more hands-off approach to exploitation justified by supposed long-term 'civilization' of the colonial subjects.
The really uncomfortable question is to ask whether they really ARE better off, or if that's just something we like to tell ourselves to make this easier to justify. All the easier when we are measuring 'better off' by 'somewhat more like us than they used to be', which is not a reliable measure by any means.
Just a moment...are you talking about colonialism and second biggest growing economy here?
With zillions of population and zillions of problems that just came out of feudal age....
Its as ridiculous as all the claims about American imperialism and Saudi Arabia that some come up with-but that's off topics though.
They live in the People's Republic of China. A country which has murdered around 75 million of its own people since its inception.
They have almost no place to go but up.
These people are not compelled to work there. They chose to work there. Regardless of what you, or I, or anyone else thinks, they think it makes sense.
Worth a read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/24/magazine/two-cheers-for-sweatshops.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Just a moment...are you talking about colonialism and second biggest growing economy here?
With zillions of population and zillions of problems that just came out of feudal age....
Its as ridiculous as all the claims about American imperialism and Saudi Arabia that some come up with-but that's off topics though.
I'm not talking about any national empire here, and I think in the globalized world it's silly to think that nation-states even matter anymore. We've almost completely passed the age where they actually have any relevance.
I'm talking about the colonial logic used by the companies and their stakeholders that reap the benefits. These are multinational by their nature, but still work on the same logic.
By the way, the "just came out of the feudal age" and dismissive attitudes towards the complexity of Chinese society and history is yet another exemplary token of colonial logic.
This has nothing to do with flexibility, which is an important and necessary factor in competitive industries. No, this is the demand to have semi-slaves. Do we really want to go back to this?
They mentioned that in the TAL story I linked as well.
"Do WE really want to go back to this?" What do I care? I'm not the "we," I'm the consumer. I don't care one way or another about PRC workers. Not my problem. If they have a problem, they can bring it up with their fellow traveller Comrades running the show in Beijing. If it's enough of a problem, maybe they should overthrow their POS government.
Penguin
01-30-12, 03:57 PM
They mentioned that in the TAL story I linked as well.
"Do WE really want to go back to this?" What do I care? I'm not the "we," I'm the consumer. I don't care one way or another about PRC workers. Not my problem. If they have a problem, they can bring it up with their fellow traveller Comrades running the show in Beijing. If it's enough of a problem, maybe they should overthrow their POS government.
I haven't listened to the story yet, just read a little of the transscript, will try to listen to it on my way to work - glad to have my own home and not to live in a company's dorm ;)
Yes, you are part of the we. I meant us, who enjoy a standard of safety regulations and labor laws at our work. My question meant: do we want to give up the standards we enjoy today to compete with China? Do we want to go back to 19th century Manchester capitalism?
As a consumer you do support a tyranny by buying stuff that is manufactured there. I don't like dictatorships, so I try to avoid buying stuff from there.
The myth that economic freedom necessarily leads to personal freedom gets disproved by China's example - granted they are less brutal today than at Mao's time, but nonetheless a dictatorship.
No, we would not accept that here. While it is possible to exploit commies to do it... why not?
This is NOT colonialism. We are imposing nothing on them, it is their choice to do this. We would be fools not to benefit from it. In the meantime, we can come up with cost effective ways to compete, or simply do what Apple does--"we" are the creative people, "they" will do the scut work.
Regardless of how you feel about foxconn (and particularly if you dislike them), you'll love that TAL story. The guy is a great storyteller, and his story is damn interesting.
BTW, an analogy. Virtually everyone uses some oil that comes from the middle east. Do you demand that they free the 1/2 of their population that is in effect property? (women) Do you not drive, or use petrochemicals (or try not to) to protest medieval, misogynistic, bronze age insanity?
soopaman2
01-30-12, 06:08 PM
How about instead of our noble government on both sides of the aisle stop bending over and taking it?
Policies that encourage outsourcing, Reagen voo-doo supply side economics. NAFTA, our tendencies to ignore Chinese currency manipulations, The Federal Reserves destruction of the US dollar, disgusting military spending, grossly blatant graft, and not enacting policies to save US jobs, in order to cater to campaign contributing corporations.
I bet I can think of some more.
In other words, we have become a fascist state. Notice the amount of laws that have been coming out to restrict peoples freedoms?
From the patriot act, allowing imprisonment with no charge, to unwarranted wiretaps. We even assassinate our own citizens. All the way to SOPA, and ACTA which is sponsored by bribery (lobbying) to give us a China style internet filter.
This is upsetting to me, but what saddens me more is how many people are/have embraced it.
They sicken me....
BTW, an analogy. Virtually everyone uses some oil that comes from the middle east. Do you demand that they free the 1/2 of their population that is in effect property? (women) Do you not drive, or use petrochemicals (or try not to) to protest medieval, misogynistic, bronze age insanity?
Okay, but the fact that everybody is doing it doesn't make it right. In my case by the way, I don't drive and don't particularly desire to - but that doesn't make me suddenly better than everyone either.
The point is that it's wrong to assume that everything is good with the world, and that we need to put up with it or shut up. The point is that we need to put our money where our mouth is and actually stand for human rights and liberty that we so value ourselves, otherwise all of this is just a laughable joke. And the more it becomes the latter, the more those rights become expendable - and soopaman is right on the money here, this is where our own rights go down the toilet. Cause hey, if it's okay for it to happen in China, why not here? All humans are humans, right? So if it's good enough for China, it's good enough for us! That's precisely what's going on - we are indeed bending over and taking it, and no matter what you do it's not gonna save you from waking up one day that your nation-state has failed to protect you from a more global pattern of injustice. Because as I say, nation-states are becoming completely irrelevant in the global economy - and all the money that you see in politics (and its lovely fruits like SOPA etc.) is just a sign of those times.
So you have to either stand for fundamental human rights, or risk losing them. You can't do it selectively - not anymore, we don't live in that kind of world now. It's a global society and the playing field isn't getting more unequal - it's actually getting more and more disturbingly level, and not in a way that's good for most of us. By which I mean that the average person in China and the US is approaching equally liability to get screwed over by the interests of global business.
I'm not overly concerned about liberty in communist china. If their system results in exploited workers, this might well be a net positive the MORE they are exploited. Perhaps they'll dump their evil government in protest.
Alright, that's a fair point. But again, it's not ONLY their government that's the problem. The difficulty is that those who benefit from the products of their labour exist elsewhere - whether it's Apple or the consumers who are (predominantly) in the West. And when/if they throw off their government, don't expect them to suddenly love those who benefited from their exploitation. They'll be looking for revenge there, and we'll technically 'deserve' it too - and that does not bode well for the world situation or the well-being of those of us who enjoy the fruits of cheap labour now. Don't expect them to wake up one day and say "oh man, how wrong we were about our government! Sorry guys, you were right, the economy is ultimately right and we were simply idiots for letting you take advantage of us - let's be friends and work for world peace now!"
nikimcbee
01-30-12, 09:16 PM
...speaking of China, I got to work with a smokin' hot Chinese Phd engineer today. Nuff said.:woot::rock:
I wowed her with my knowledge of Chinese.:D
the_tyrant
01-30-12, 09:48 PM
...speaking of China, I got to work with a smokin' hot Chinese Phd engineer today. Nuff said.:woot::rock:
I wowed her with my knowledge of Chinese.:D
reminds me:
James Bond: [Whilst being in bed with his Scandinavian language tutor] I always enjoyed learning a new tongue.
Moneypenny: You always were a cunning linguist, James.
Moneypenny: [M walks up from behind Moneypenny] Don't ask.
M: Don't tell.
kiwi_2005
01-31-12, 03:50 AM
I was never a Steve Jobs fan anyway, Bill Gates trolled him good over the years.
soopaman2
01-31-12, 12:57 PM
So which one of you rubes spent 400-700 dollars on the I-phone.
Even better, which one of you rubes camped out overnight to get one. There has got to be at least one.
No need to admit, just know you are so in need to be "in" with the hip crowd, you will overpay for a name. Hopefully you get over your consumerism, and research. You can find equivalents for half or even a quarter the price if only you can survive the stigma of not being a conformist pig like everyone else.
Or you can support America, and not buy an Apple product, as I do.
Made in America still means something to some of us, unlike the un-tech savvy monkeys who need Apple to tell them how to compute.
Or you can support America, and not buy an Apple product, as I do.
Made in America still means something to some of us, unlike the un-tech savvy monkeys who need Apple to tell them how to compute.
Which smartphone is manufactured in the US?
Which regular phone is manufactured in the US?
AVGWarhawk
01-31-12, 02:02 PM
Which smartphone is manufactured in the US?
Which regular phone is manufactured in the US?
http://www.thekidswindow.co.uk/images/CMScontent/Image/469369~Tin-Can-and-String-Telephone-Posters.jpg
http://www.thekidswindow.co.uk/images/CMScontent/Image/469369~Tin-Can-and-String-Telephone-Posters.jpg
Damn, I should have waited to get the deluxe, chrome model (BTW, is it Android?)...
Ignore the Obama word:D
BY CHARLES DUHIGG AND KEITH BRADSHER - New York Times
BY CHARLES DUHIGG AND KEITH BRADSHER
When President Barack Obama joined Silicon Valley's top luminaries for dinner in California last February, each guest was asked to come with a question for the president.
But as Steve Jobs of Apple spoke, Obama interrupted with an inquiry of his own: What would it take to make iPhones in the United States?
Not long ago, Apple boasted that its products were made in America. Today, few are. Almost all of the 70 million iPhones, 30 million iPads and 59 million other products Apple sold last year were manufactured overseas.
Why can't that work come home? Obama asked.
Jobs' reply was unambiguous. "Those jobs aren't coming back," he said, according to another dinner guest.
The president's question touched upon a central conviction at Apple. It isn't just that workers are cheaper abroad. Rather, Apple's executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their U.S. counterparts that "Made in the USA" is no longer a viable option for most Apple products.
Apple has become one of the best-known, most admired and most imitated companies on Earth, in part through an unrelenting mastery of global operations. Last year, it earned more than $400,000 in profit per employee, more than Goldman Sachs, Exxon Mobil or Google.
However, what has vexed Obama as well as economists and policymakers is that Apple - and many of its high-technology peers - are not nearly as avid about creating U.S. jobs as other famous companies were in their heydays.
Apple employs 43,000 people in the United States and 20,000 overseas, a small fraction of the more than 400,000 U.S. workers at General Motors in the 1950s, or the hundreds of thousands at General Electric in the 1980s. Many more people work for Apple's contractors: Roughly 700,000 people engineer, build and assemble iPads, iPhones and Apple's other products. Almost none of them work in the United States. Instead, they work for foreign companies in Asia, Europe and elsewhere, at factories that almost every electronics designer relies upon to build their wares.
"Apple's an example of why it's so hard to create middle-class jobs in the U.S. now," said Jared Bernstein, who until last year was an economic adviser to the White House.
"If it's the pinnacle of capitalism, we should be worried."
But while Apple is far from alone, it offers a window into why the success of some prominent companies has not translated into large numbers of domestic jobs. What's more, the company's decisions pose broader questions about what Corporate America owes Americans as the global and national economies are increasingly intertwined.
'I want a glass screen'
In 2007, a little more than a month before the iPhone was scheduled to appear in stores, Jobs beckoned a handful of lieutenants into an office. For weeks, he had been carrying a prototype of the device in his pocket.
Jobs angrily held up his iPhone, angling it so everyone could see the dozens of tiny scratches marring its plastic screen, according to someone who attended the meeting. He then pulled his keys from his jeans.
People will carry this phone in their pocket, he said. People also carry their keys in their pocket. "I won't sell a product that gets scratched," he said tensely. The only solution was using unscratchable glass instead. "I want a glass screen, and I want it perfect in six weeks."
After one executive left that meeting, he booked a flight to Shenzhen, China. If Jobs wanted perfect, there was nowhere else to go.
In its early days, Apple usually didn't look beyond its own backyard for manufacturing solutions. But by 2004, Apple had largely turned to foreign manufacturing. Guiding that decision was Apple's operations expert, Timothy D. Cook, who replaced Jobs as chief executive in August, six weeks before Jobs' death. Most other U.S. electronics companies had already gone abroad, and Apple, which at the time was struggling, felt it had to grasp every advantage.
In part, Asia was attractive because the semiskilled workers there were cheaper. But that wasn't driving Apple. For technology companies, the cost of labor is minimal compared with the expense of buying parts and managing supply chains that bring together components and services from hundreds of companies.
Asian advantages
For years, cellphone makers had avoided using glass because it required precision in cutting and grinding that was extremely difficult to achieve. Apple had already selected a U.S. company, Corning Inc., to manufacture large panes of strengthened glass. But figuring out how to cut those panes into millions of iPhone screens required finding an empty cutting plant, hundreds of pieces of glass to use in experiments and an army of midlevel engineers. It would cost a fortune simply to prepare.
Then a bid for the work arrived from a Chinese factory.
When an Apple team visited, the Chinese plant's owners were already constructing a new wing. The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory. It had a warehouse filled with glass samples available to Apple, free of charge. The owners made engineers available at almost no cost. They had built dormitories on site so employees would be available 24 hours a day.
The Chinese plant got the job.
"The entire supply chain is in China now," said a former high-ranking Apple executive. "You need a thousand rubber gaskets? That's the factory next door. You need a million screws? That factory is a block away. You need that screw made a little bit different? It will take three hours."
It is difficult to estimate how much more it would cost to build iPhones in the United States. However, various academics and manufacturing analysts estimate that because labor is such a small part of technology manufacturing, paying U.S. wages would add up to only $65 to each iPhone's expense.
But such calculations are, in many respects, meaningless because building the iPhone in the United States would demand much more than hiring Americans - it would require transforming the national and global economies. Apple executives believe there simply aren't enough U.S. workers with the skills the company needs or factories with sufficient speed and flexibility. Other companies that work with Apple, like Corning, also say they must go abroad.
"Our customers are in Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China," said James B. Flaws, Corning's vice chairman and chief financial officer. "We could make the glass here, and then ship it by boat, but that takes 35 days. Or we could ship it by air, but that's 10 times as expensive. So we build our glass factories next door to assembly factories, and those are overseas."
Innovation speeds up
In the last decade, technological leaps in solar and wind energy, semiconductor fabrication and display technologies have created thousands of jobs. But while many of those industries started in America, much of the employment has occurred abroad. Companies have closed major facilities in the United States to reopen in China. By way of explanation, executives say they are competing with Apple for shareholders. If they cannot rival Apple's growth and profit margins, they won't survive.
The pace of innovation, say executives from a variety of industries, has been quickened by businessmen like Jobs. GM went as long as half a decade between major automobile redesigns. Apple, by comparison, has released five iPhones in four years, doubling the devices' speed and memory while dropping the price that some consumers pay.
Before Obama and Jobs said goodbye after dinner last year, the Apple executive pulled an iPhone from his pocket to show off a new application - a driving game. The other executives, whose combined worth exceeded $69 billion, jostled for position to glance over his shoulder. The game, everyone agreed, was wonderful.
There wasn't even a tiny scratch on the screen. David Barboza, Peter Lattman and Catherine Rampell contributed.
..............
the_tyrant
01-31-12, 02:46 PM
So which one of you rubes spent 400-700 dollars on the I-phone.
Even better, which one of you rubes camped out overnight to get one. There has got to be at least one.
No need to admit, just know you are so in need to be "in" with the hip crowd, you will overpay for a name. Hopefully you get over your consumerism, and research. You can find equivalents for half or even a quarter the price if only you can survive the stigma of not being a conformist pig like everyone else.
Or you can support America, and not buy an Apple product, as I do.
Made in America still means something to some of us, unlike the un-tech savvy monkeys who need Apple to tell them how to compute.
I challenge you to go to your local electronics store, and find me 1 phone, or 1 computer that is made in america
I used to use an HP veer cellphone, and an HP touchsmart laptop. Both are made in China
I now use an LG quantum (made in Korea), and a Fujitsu TH700 laptop(made it Japan), These are like the only products you can find that are made in first world countries. Everything else is made in China/Vietnam/Mexico/etc
I have nokia made in Finland and another one in Hungary.
My next phone is going to be Nokia with windows OS:-?
(actually it might be cool)
Penguin
01-31-12, 03:07 PM
my stuff:
Samsung phone: made in Korea,
Samsung monitor: made in Hungary
HP laptop & xbox : China :oops: -> had no alternatives for both
mainboard: Taiwan
RAM: Thailand
PSU: Germany
CPU: Germany
car: Germany
I try to avoid buying stuff from arsehole countries - well from countries where even greater arses than here are in charge, not always possible though
Ignore the Obama word:D
*cough, cough* http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1830174&postcount=35 :|\\
AVGWarhawk
01-31-12, 03:18 PM
Apple's executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their U.S. counterparts that "Made in the USA" is no longer a viable option for most Apple products.
And this is who's fault? I believe this is a crap answer to a legitimate question. The jobs are overseas because of the almighty dollar. The flexibility is attributed to lesser regulations. Diligence of the worker because there is a line out the door for his job if he decides one day not to be diligent. Skills are learned. No need to school probable workers in the USA because...see preceding sentences. Personally, this crap by Apple croonies is nothing but slap in the working American.
AVGWarhawk
01-31-12, 03:20 PM
I have nokia made in Finland and another one in Hungary.
My next phone is going to be Nokia with windows OS:-?
(actually it might be cool)
My wife has a LG Quantum with Windows OS. She likes it a lot. So do it. Less complicated than Android. The OS has some cool features.
Penguin
01-31-12, 03:32 PM
I'm not overly concerned about liberty in communist china. If their system results in exploited workers, this might well be a net positive the MORE they are exploited. Perhaps they'll dump their evil government in protest.
Sorry mate, but this sounds like using the service of a woman who was forced into prostitution and saying to yourself: "Hey, at least she doesn't have to beg" Pay her only some change and tell her if she doesn't like her life she can revolt against her pimp.
Just like CCIP already pointed out, you can't expect her to like you afterwards.
BTW, an analogy. Virtually everyone uses some oil that comes from the middle east. Do you demand that they free the 1/2 of their population that is in effect property? (women) Do you not drive, or use petrochemicals (or try not to) to protest medieval, misogynistic, bronze age insanity?
Yes, I drive a car and use products made out of oil. If British Petrol would just sell the product its name states, I'd go there. Supporting insane regimes by filling up my wheels sickens me, sadly most countries with big reserves are run by disgusting regimes - another reason to break out of our oil dependency.
At least you have the possibility go to Citgo if you don't want to support the Middle Eastern regimes... :03:
I, among many other people have boycotted products from South Africa in the 80s, to set a stance against the Apartheid regime, maybe just a little sign of protest. I do the same today; I check where my products come from and try to buy from countries/corporations which treat their staff like humans.
I am not claiming to be on the moral high ground, just a principle: I don't want to be a slave, I don't want to have a slave - not even indirectly. It's simple as that.
In other words, we have become a fascist state. Notice the amount of laws that have been coming out to restrict peoples freedoms?
Yes I do notice the constant erosion of freedoms, here and in the US, but coming from a country that had this little fascist experiment running for some years, I can attest you: you're still way far from it in the States.
However I found you rant about the Apple consumer zombies funny, took the words out of my mind - it made me laugh after a hard day at work :DL, so if you ever come over here, I'll fetch you a (real) beer. :smug:
Where's soopaman? He said we should buy made in USA smartphones... I wanna know what to buy.
If the phone is not made in the US, why not get one made in China? Why would I prefer one made in a european country, and profits to a european country where everyone hates us? ;)
Least the profit from Apple ends up here.
Why would I prefer one made in a european country, and profits to a european country
....Least the profit from Apple ends up here.[/
That's good point but the issue is that its possible to make such devices domestically with high labor standards but increasingly harder to compete with companies that move to china.
Nobody is telling you to buy EU stuff.
...where everyone hates us? ;)
Its not about who likes who its about who screws who.
soopaman2
02-01-12, 10:56 AM
Where's soopaman? He said we should buy made in USA smartphones... I wanna know what to buy.
If the phone is not made in the US, why not get one made in China? Why would I prefer one made in a european country, and profits to a european country where everyone hates us? ;)
Least the profit from Apple ends up here.
I Never said nothing about buying a US made smartphone. I'll take the words you shoved into my mouth out now.
I do not own a cell phone....How's that you arrogant (seemingly at least) jerk?
Nor do I feel so god damned important that I need to be reached while shopping or on a trip with my wife.
I value family over crap.:sunny:
Where's soopaman? Right here.
Edit: So you are for offshoring?
So which one of you rubes spent 400-700 dollars on the I-phone.
Even better, which one of you rubes camped out overnight to get one. There has got to be at least one.
No need to admit, just know you are so in need to be "in" with the hip crowd, you will overpay for a name. Hopefully you get over your consumerism, and research. You can find equivalents for half or even a quarter the price if only you can survive the stigma of not being a conformist pig like everyone else.
Or you can support America, and not buy an Apple product, as I do.
Made in America still means something to some of us, unlike the un-tech savvy monkeys who need Apple to tell them how to compute.
This is your post. You are calling everyone using an iPhone a "conformist pig." Who's the "arrogant jerk?"
Your answer is that I can support America by not using a cell phone, am I correct? Perhaps I should employ americans by utilizing runners, instead of phone calls? You "support America" apparently by buying NO cell phone. Got it. How does that help the US again?
Apple is an american company. R&D (all the good jobs), and retail jobs are here in the US, paying americans wages. The profit... also stays here. I see Apple as probably a multi-hundred million dollar (more?) per year "plus" for the US each year in tax revenues alone.
I use my phone constantly. Not having one is your choice, but it is hardly more american to not use a cell phone, or smart phone. Apparently everyone around you is "offshoring" since virtually no phones (unless you own nothing but perhaps an ancient rotary type) are made in the USA.
AVGWarhawk
02-01-12, 01:56 PM
Post #52: Indirectly you suggested buying a American made phone. Right after you named called and categorically pigeon-holed iPhone users as needing to be with the 'in' crowd. Then went on to preach about the iPhone users consumerism issues. You forgot one thing, the iPhone is a excellent product with little issue if any. I have not met a disgruntled iPhone user. Maybe the popularity has to do with the great product. Like a Toyota Camary.
Cell phones by and large are for entertainment these days, however, many are used to conduct business, save a life or always be in constant contact during emergency situations which is were I find myself when working a FEMA disaster. It is a invaluable tool in the right hands. It is not always a matter of importance. If I did not need one for my job I would not own a cellphone. To me, cellphones do not allow me to be off work EVER.
So, I have a cellphone for my work so I can make money and enjoy the value of family over crap. :sunny:
Note that all phones (including cell phones) are required by law to be able to call 911, regardless of service contract. That means that keeping an old cell phone charged in the car (even if you don;t pay for service) means your wife, daughter, etc can have 911 at hand at all times (and zero cost).
soopaman2
02-02-12, 04:54 PM
Note that all phones (including cell phones) are required by law to be able to call 911, regardless of service contract. That means that keeping an old cell phone charged in the car (even if you don;t pay for service) means your wife, daughter, etc can have 911 at hand at all times (and zero cost).
I do get your points tater, perhaps that last post was partly fueled by alcohol and seeming challenge.
You are speaking only about cellphones. I am speaking about everything I can can control.
I always buy Ford Trucks. But when I want a TV I may not have a choice. Which is your point. Sometimes you cannot help it. Thanks to our pro corporate government.
I am adamant about getting jobs back to America, and tend to get irate when people "justify" outsourcing because it is a good product. It shows your own amusement matters over the greater social good, and is why we are where we are as a country. Not an attack, just a thinking point.:sunny:
How many americans are sitting at a computer in an unemployment office so you can have that great product built at a place where the workers sleep in dorms, get paid slave wages (even by Chinas standards) and commit suicide to get out of the place.
Yes, foxconn...The apple of apples eye.
I don't think we should agree, just agree to disagree.
:salute:
(edit: I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote your rebuttal to my post, tater. Sorry)
I buy what I feel like buying, which is usually the best I can get for whatever the budget is for that type of product. Sometimes "best" is subjective, obviously.
What foxconn does would not employ nearly as many people here in the US, particularly if it needed to be even a little cost-effective (an iPhone is like $700, or $2-300 with a service plan. If not made the same way in the US it would cost what, 10 times more? 20X? (they make ~$1.50/hr, so a US factory worker would make at least 10X that, if like an autoworker, 40X).
Who'd buy a smartphone for 14 grand? 7 grand? Didn't think so.
You buy a Ford, but you're typing this on something not made in the US, likely.
The choice seems to me to be between affordable electronics, and only a handful of people having really expensive electronics.
Nokia n97 or C8 assembled in finland cost similar price to iPhone.
Its buggy device due to OS(symbian) but it has nothing to do with its price.
Finland is a place with very high employment standard but still they managed that.
But yeah they move their production to china too.
(using nokia just for comparison)
Nokia n97 or C8 assembled in finland cost similar price to iPhone.
Its buggy device due to OS(symbian) but it has nothing to do with its price.
Finland is a place with very high employment standard but still they managed that.
But yeah they move their production to china too.
(using nokia just for comparison)
Yeah, but I compared it as if Apple built it in the US using the same amount of labor. I don't doubt they could get fairly close, but they'd be using robots for many steps done by hand in china. People are cheaper than robots in china. So if they were made in the US, then there would be vastly fewer people employed to do so.
Also, from an American perspective, it makes not the least difference if it is made in Finland or China to me. If it's not the US, they are equal in my eyes. I don;t care about finnish workers, and I don't care about chinese workers. Not my problem. At least in the case of Apple, the profit goes here, so it's clearly a better American decision to buy a product by a US company made someplace else than a non-US product made someplace else. Then there are non-US companies who make stuff in the US (Toyota, Honda, VW, Mercedes, etc). That's slightly worse than buying an american car made here, but if they don't use unions, I consider that a plus that far outweighs that. :)
the_tyrant
02-03-12, 08:48 AM
new article on this: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/happy-chinese-workers-spell-the-end-of-affordable-tech/19785
Also, I would like to add, by moving production to the US, you are killing the competitiveness of these tech companies
After all, the US is only a portion of the global market, and that guy in Brazil probably doesn't care where his phone is made, as long as it is cheap and good. People outside the US are probably not willing to pay extra for a product that is made in the US
new article on this: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/happy-chinese-workers-spell-the-end-of-affordable-tech/19785
Also, I would like to add, by moving production to the US, you are killing the competitiveness of these tech companies
After all, the US is only a portion of the global market, and that guy in Brazil probably doesn't care where his phone is made, as long as it is cheap and good. People outside the US are probably not willing to pay extra for a product that is made in the US
We should enjoy it while it lasts.
Upgrading consumer electronics every six month may be fun question is if its needed.
On another hand constant economic grows and consumption needed to maintain economy is the issue, but sooner or later we may have to come to terms with reality.
Hope it will not come around to sweatshops in the west:D.
soopaman2
02-03-12, 11:23 AM
I buy what I feel like buying, which is usually the best I can get for whatever the budget is for that type of product. Sometimes "best" is subjective, obviously.
What foxconn does would not employ nearly as many people here in the US, particularly if it needed to be even a little cost-effective (an iPhone is like $700, or $2-300 with a service plan. If not made the same way in the US it would cost what, 10 times more? 20X? (they make ~$1.50/hr, so a US factory worker would make at least 10X that, if like an autoworker, 40X).
Who'd buy a smartphone for 14 grand? 7 grand? Didn't think so.
You buy a Ford, but you're typing this on something not made in the US, likely.
The choice seems to me to be between affordable electronics, and only a handful of people having really expensive electronics.
Yes tater...Yes.:yeah:
You sometimes do not have a choice, but that is what should change.
You wish no change, you do not wish even deep down inside America can be saved? You are reasonable, I know you want what is best. I have no doubt.
I do not wish to be ruled by other sovereigns. I love the free choice I have, I stay away from Wal-Mart, and prefer small bussiness to do what I do. Instead of home depot, I go to the small stores for my hardware needs. Even If the tool I buy is made in Japan, it serves to profit a member of my community, rather than some fat out of touch nobility, sitting in another country, exploiting Americas resources.
Sometimes you have no choice, but it does not mean that is the way it should be, nor does it mean it is wrong to speak against it.
We are not China yet, sir.:salute:
Small business is the lifeblood of America, it employs the most. Yet gets the least attention from politicians. They like the millions of donations the "big box" guys can give, and will always favor them.
(edit: I refuse to buy an Apple product...EVER. It is my right, just as it is you right to own and love an Apple product, I do not think less of you, I only wish our government didn't encourage outsourcing in the 80's and 90s)
I buy loads of local stuff. We don't use walmart (but we do use Target, which is no different except it has milfs in yoga pants instead of tubs of goo wearing... go to peopleofwalmart.com to see ;) ).
Buying Apple stuff doesn't make me a "conformist pig."
I still ask you where I can find the same stuff for 1/2 or less of what stuff made in china is. Particularly since the whole post was in the context of "Apple."
I will maintain that there is nothing anti-american about buying apple stuff. Is it the most cost-effective choice vs a product where the profit all goes overseas (samsung, etc)? Maybe not, but I like my iPhone. First phone I've had (cell) that I've ever used as more than a phone. I use it daily for its "smart" features.
soopaman2
02-03-12, 11:52 AM
Buying Apple stuff doesn't make me a "conformist pig."
No it does not. But the people that camp out overnight and wait in line....
Just saying. You buy it because you enjoy the product, alot buy it to not be left out.
That is perhaps where my "conformist pig" comment came from. Not saying you or anybody else here is, but alot are, and you kinda have to admit it. Just look at how your local Apple store is infested with hipsters camping out overnight to get something they will have to re-buy with new features (they already designed) 6 months later. Want more gigs? spend another 400$ 6 months later for an "updated" version.
Pathetic, and pure consumerism, seriously.
My problem is with the company more than the consumers. I just find "some" of the consumers the problem that encourages outsourcing, and slave wages at the detriment of American workers. While enjoying American freedoms of commerce themselves.
Why is consumerism bad? No consumption, no jobs.
I don't consider someone waiting overnight a "conformist pig," I just consider them silly. I'll not wait 30 minutes for a table at a restaurant unless it has stellar food (which means almost no place).
I have been int he Apple store here a few times to get stuff. Yeah, it's full of "hipsters." So what? How is that any different than going out of your way to build a good gaming rig? It's not like more non-Apple users are doing particle physics with their Dell machines (my good friend is a physicist (phd caltech) and has an ipad and an iphone). He does nanophysics, though, not particle physics. Maybe that makes him a "hipster."
Bottom line is that economically, who the customer is doesn't matter at all. All that matters is where does the money go. You can try and argue "american jobs" for some stuff, but in terms of electronics it';s likely a very few jobs monitoring machines, and that MUST be cheaper than china, or people will just buy from the competition. Apple selling phones to a billion chinese is a net plus for the US. Profit goes here, pollution, etc goes there. The alternative is for the chinese to make up their own phones, in which case they still get phones and jobs, and the US gets NOTHING.
soopaman2
02-03-12, 12:40 PM
Tater I am not villifying you or anyone.:timeout:
I do like your point on profits here and pollutions there, I got a chuckle. Then I realized the prevailing winds carry that crap to our west coast and cringed.
So as with all things, there is negatives.
How about we agree to disagree, we live in a country that allows us to do that without having some secret police imprison us for it, let us at least rejoice for that.
I do not think you unreasonable, nor a jerk because you buy apple. Chillll! ;P
:yeah:
nikimcbee
02-20-12, 12:44 PM
Speaking of apple:
http://news.yahoo.com/trip-ifactory-nightline-gets-unprecedented-glimpse-inside-apples-001926196--abc-news.html
And unions make US labor too expensive.
There is no even playing field. It is what it is.
Even though I didn't like the main story author on this american life (you'd likely like it, though: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory ), he makes a few great observations. One is that people imagine "stuff," particularly techno-stuff to me made by machines. Those same people bemoan the loss of artisanal, "hand-made" products from our history.
He points out that "everything is hand made." Those factories are filled with people doing everything on your iPhone by hand.
Even if the plant was in the US, it would have to be entirely automated. The number of jobs would be small. There is not any other possibility for it to be cost-effective. Yeah, they get paid $1/hr or something, but instead of one guy working for $75/hr running the iPod machine, they have 75 who ARE the iPod machine. They still get it done for less, since they don't have to buy the machine...
So we're talking tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs in china vs a few thousand if it were here (at most). And it would still have to cost more.
Turns out that this story is very inaccurate. The author lied about many of the specifics, even stuff that should not have mattered, making virtually nothing he said credible. This weeks TAL episode was a retraction.
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