One less F-14 to worry about.

[TLAM Strike]

The Associated Press
Date: Thursday Jan. 26, 2012 5:59 AM ET
TEHRAN — Iran's semi-official Fars news agency says a U.S.-made F-14 Iranian fighter jet has crashed in Bushehr province in southern Iran.

Provincial governor Mohammad Hossein Jahanbakhsh says both the pilot and the co-pilot were killed in Thursday's crash.


The Fars report says the fighter plane crashed due to technical failure and that authorities have recovered the wreckage outside Bushehr, a port city with the same name as the province. Bushehr is known as the location of Iran's first nuclear power plant.


Iran purchased many U.S.-made planes, including F-14s before the 1979 Islamic Revolution and during the rule of the late pro-Western Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.
So about 24 remanding that are fit to fly.

AMF

[Herr-Berbunch]

You say fit to fly, do you actually mean fit, or just able to fly? :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

You say fit to fly, do you actually mean fit, or just able to fly? :hmmm:

Fly? Yes. Land? No...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUK-LPSouwE

...
correction

Fly? No....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QenR4MJZkP0

[CCIP]

It still continues to puzzle me how (and more importantly, why) Iran continues to operate such a complex aircraft when they have no support from the manufacturer and have to bend over backwards for spare parts and upgrades, especially when I can't see what capability the F-14 offers them that they couldn't get from something more accessible and easily-maintainable :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

It still continues to puzzle me how (and more importantly, why) Iran continues to operate such a complex aircraft when they have no support from the manufacturer and have to bend over backwards for spare parts and upgrades, especially when I can't see what capability the F-14 offers them that they couldn't get from something more accessible and easily-maintainable :hmmm:
1st:
Big honking air to air missiles:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/640/f14skyhawk.png

2nd: It can hit Israel with only one mid air refueling while the Su-24 or F-4 needs 2-3.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7769/3366924883.jpg

edit: 3rd: The only "new" jets they've gotten "lately" were some MiG-29s and those are not in the most awe inspiring condition.
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2604/n10056311689804.jpg

Its possible that if the Iranians get more accurate IRBMs and more SLCMs they might phase the F-14 out of service but I doubt it; I think they will run them in to the ground before getting rid of them.

[CCIP]

I think they will run them in to the ground.

Well then, looks like they're doing a pretty good job of that then :O:

20-something F-14s against the IDF also seems like a pretty difficult proposition. I really can't see that going very far.
What sort of big honking AAMs do they have on those, anyway? Do they seriously still have any working AIM-54s anymore (and that's assuming they ever actually worked)?

[TLAM Strike]

Well then, looks like they're doing a pretty good job of that then :O:

20-something F-14s against the IDF also seems like a pretty difficult proposition. I really can't see that going very far.
What sort of big honking AAMs do they have on those, anyway? Do they seriously still have any working AIM-54s anymore (and that's assuming they ever actually worked)?

:shifty: You not going to believe this...

Its a HAWK SAM... :har:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9044/3fb75ed1315e6417.jpg

Other than those the Iranians have maybe 50 or so AIM-54s, and apparently Iran's AIM-54s laid down the pain on the Iraqi Air Force, the Iranians claim a 164-1 kill ratio with the Tomcat. (for whatever that is worth :haha: ) Something like 20-30 AIM-54 hits; incl. a 3fer on a flight of floggers (try saying that when your drunk!)

[CCIP]

:o:o:o

Alright Iran, you win this one. Just when I thought their military couldn't get any weirder than their flying magical speedboats of doom, it does :doh:

What do they use for an AGM, a wire-guided torpedo with rocket boosters strapped to it? :88)

[TLAM Strike]

:o:o:o

Alright Iran, you win this one. Just when I thought their military couldn't get any weirder than their flying magical speedboats of doom, it does :doh: I got four words for you: Kamikaze Jet Ski Boat:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1995/jetskiboat01.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2856/jetskiboat03.jpg


What do they use for an AGM, a wire-guided torpedo with rocket boosters strapped to it? :88)The phrase "Cluster Missile" comes to mind... :hmmm:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2131/img0445257e0.jpg

[Lord_magerius]

The words cluster "something else" come to mind :O:

[Herr-Berbunch]

The phrase "Cluster Missile" comes to mind... :hmmm:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2131/img0445257e0.jpg

It's like a JP233 with wings :o

[Oberon]

It's like a JP233 with wings :o

That's exactly what I thought when I saw it :haha: Egads Iran, just give the F-14s to me and I'll look after them better than you can. Just, stop breaking them please or you'll have my other half to answer to, and none of your Hawk SAMAAM cut and shuts will protect you against that, believe me. :dead:

[Agiel7]

I should imagine the Iranian Air Force thanks their lucky stars when they can taxi those things to the runway, let alone having them take-off.

[Stealhead]

The top picture in the 5th post must be very old because American employees of various companies working on the Shahs new US supplied military equipment they managed to destroy all the systems that make the AIM-54 usable before they left Iran in 1979.They also sabotaged the ability of the Iranian AH-1s to fire TOW missiles.I think that they are lying about the success rate of the F-14s against Iraq.I have read in variuos places that they mainly used older F-4s in 1980-88 because the F-14s where basically unflyable for the most part and they did not want to risk losing the few that flew (very likely with little or no AIM-54 capability) due to no spare parts They also flew F-5Es alot as well.

With all the engine problems that the early model F-14s had I highly doubt any remaining Iranian F-14s are ultra paper tigers that are soaking wet.Of course supposedly some folks in the US have been busted trying to smuggle F-14 parts to Iran so who knows for sure.The AIM-54 would be much harder to keep in service after so many years I think after 30 years they would probably simply drop of the rack and fall if they do use them they must have found a way to re-manufacturer them.I also wonder how they manage to maintain all the ground support equipment needed to keep these planes going I worked with this myself in the USAF and this gear needs as much maintenance as an aircraft they cant get the spare parts for this gear from the US and the F-14s use it all so they must have come up with a way to produce their on own new support equipment no way a gas turbine generator made in 1978-79 at the most recent is going to last 30 years without serious overhaul at least and that is pushing it the oldest gas turbine generators I saw where built is 1987 and had received major overhaul in the mid 90s.Based on my experience in the USAF working on the flight line it is very clear that Iran has come up with effective ways to counter the effects of embargo on their US supplied equipment if that is the case one should not underestimate them all though I personally think that they do not even bother to use the AIM-54s anymore.

[magicstix]

I'm planning to have Iranian F-14s in the game I'm working on, I wonder if I should make their engines randomly quit if you apply too much rudder... I don't think anyone would want to fly in them then playing the OPFOR side... :D

[gimpy117]

I can bet that Iran will see more and more of these crashes. Lets face it, those F-14 Air frames are old, and there is an inverse bell curve of air frame age and failures....those air frames are very old, even a civil aircraft of that age would be close to retirement (FedEx gave WMU a FREE 727 because it was old) and a military air frame of this age without major, major overhaul is very prone to just this kind of thing. I bet we can discount the F-14's Iran has soon.

[Stealhead]

You are assuming that they have not come up with their own program to keep/upgrade the F-14s that they have.I know for a fact that they have performed since the late 90's a very successful program to modernize their C-130Hs which where built in the mid 70's.It is very possible for them to do the same thing with the F-14. Their are plenty of aircraft well over 30 years old still flying there are ways to repair all but the most worn out air frames.Like I said before Iran has found some way to keep all the 30+ year old support equipment running so they probably have found a way to keep the air frames going as well.FedEx also can get a good tax break for donating an old plane the rest probably get sold to some other smaller operator out there.

Give a nation a reason to keep some old air frame flying and they will.Honestly though I think they would see that they get much more bang for their buck acquiring a different air frame.That does not mean that they could have a few good F-14s sitting around.Of course every military in the world knows that the most cost effective form of air defense for your dollar is a good ground based air defense grid.Trust me on this if you talk to any honest USAF or Navy officer especially a well versed Intel analyst they will let you know just how dangerous a modern system.I have friends in the USAF that do just this very job and it is the number one concern way over enemy aircraft and they study these systems heavily they have pretty much every current system at Luke AFB so they know these systems inside and out still they are very dangerous to all but B-2.I don't think it really matters anyway because it is pretty clear that certain interests are destroying Iran little program from within.

[Randomizer]

Let us not forget the ridiculously over-drilled Prussian goose-stepping automaton of 1914 or the inept Jap, night blind, incapable of handling complex machinery and flying pathetic copies of Western aircraft in 1941.

Warplanes tend to be pampered and the fact that these have been flying without any manufacturer support for over 40-years should say something regarding core avionics and crew competence.

We mock them at our peril and underestimating a potential enemy has never been a good idea as the above examples show. They may well be paper-airplanes but it's a tremendously bad idea to treat that assumption as fact.

[Jimbuna]

I'm suprised they've admitted publicly to losing one :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I'm suprised they've admitted publicly to losing one :hmmm:
Possible that someone got it on their camera phone, and they had no choice. It happens a lot over there, the Iranians love their camera phones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSiXAvq0Kc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TDCjhp3Wfk

[Skybird]

While I am all for never underestimating your enemy and the surprises he prepares for you, I think of most conventionel military aspects the Iranian air force is one of those we need to worry the least about. Mines, uboats, speedboats with explosives loaded, and missiles rank much higher on my awareness list. If the Iranian air force dares to show up against a US air raid, they will ask for a confrontation in which their fighters are pretty much chanceless and will not RTB.

[Jimbuna]

Possible that someone got it on their camera phone, and they had no choice. It happens a lot over there, the Iranians love their camera phones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSiXAvq0Kc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TDCjhp3Wfk

That second link was very impressive :sunny:

[Bubblehead1980]

Let us not forget the ridiculously over-drilled Prussian goose-stepping automaton of 1914 or the inept Jap, night blind, incapable of handling complex machinery and flying pathetic copies of Western aircraft in 1941.

Warplanes tend to be pampered and the fact that these have been flying without any manufacturer support for over 40-years should say something regarding core avionics and crew competence.

We mock them at our peril and underestimating a potential enemy has never been a good idea as the above examples show. They may well be paper-airplanes but it's a tremendously bad idea to treat that assumption as fact.


Well said:cool::salute:

[CCIP]

Well, in my case the comments aren't meant to disparage Iran so much as scratch my head at how far they're willing to bend backwards to operate a complex, expensive system without support from the manufacturer and with improvised weapons. That sort of creativity makes good sense with cheap, simple (even if somewhat ridiculous) systems, of which their speedboats may well be an example, but taken on the scale of the F-14 which is obviously meant to oppose first-rate aircraft of their enemies (whether they be Israel, the Arabs, Pakistan, or the US), it just seems like a gigantic waste. It's a lot of work to keep up a system that will immediately fall in the face of its opponents (like the properly-supported, armed and modernized F-15s and F-16s that all of their obvious opponents have), and may well be keeping away resources and manpower from simpler, cheaper, and more probably efficient aircraft. It made sense when it was acquired to face Iraqi MiG-25s head to head, and beat on other less sophisticated Soviet-made aircraft, but it does not stack up against what it faces now. More than a paper tiger, to me it seems like a white elephant.

[Stealhead]

I am not so concerned about the offensive ability of Iran but I think it would be very unwise to underestimate their defensive ability.The obvious fact that these little covert attacks have been occurring on their nuclear program should make it pretty clear that some nations with very capable air forces very capable strike abilities are preferring the covert route over a direct attack unless there is no other effective recourse.
It is not like the old Iraqi program that was easy to attack and got taken out by the IDAF back in the early 80's.The Iranian facilities are very well protected from air attack just in their construction even if a strike got through it can not be be granted that it will destroy the whole thing in one shot the you are screwed because they will simply spread it out all over the place you only get one good shot.Everyone with half a brain knows that Israel is hard core into preemptive destruction of a danger to itself if they have done nothing yet then it means that they consider current actions to be effective enough or things have not reached a point that makes them wish to take action. Personally I think the entire thing is saber rattling by all sides.Iran knows that it would be wiped off the map if it ever did use a weapon and more than likely if they even got close they know that the program would get destroyed.I think Iran does it to please the hard core regime supporting Iranians.Who cares what they have if they must kill their own people when they protest then their government is weak and will crumble from within sooner or later and the F-14s will see another change in government.

[GoldenRivet]

if they werent killed in the crash, you can bet they probably would have been executed after it.

[soopaman2]

So why the American aircraft that they cannot get parts for., and not a Russian or Chinese aircraft that they could?

Is it because old, outdated American hardware is better than new Russian or Chinese hardware?:hmmm:


I thought they were their butt-buddies, shouldn't they at least sell them something decent?

1979? I was born in 1978, your jets are slightly younger than me.

Shame.

[TLAM Strike]

So why the American aircraft that they cannot get parts for., and not a Russian or Chinese aircraft that they could?

Is it because old, outdated American hardware is better than new Russian or Chinese hardware?:hmmm:


I thought they were their butt-buddies, shouldn't they at least sell them something decent?

1979? I was born in 1978, your jets are slightly younger than me.

Shame.
Because of the imbargo the Russians and Chinese can't sell them any "offensive" weapons (Bombers, Air to Ground Missiles, Warships over a specific displacement) so the Iranians are basically stuck with North Korean weapons or Shah era weapons for all their major systems.

Basically China sold them this garbage so no one really cared:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2428/iranianfastattackmissil.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3231/f7m2tr2cd.jpg

The jets they got from Russia (Su-25, MiG-29, Su-24) were flown by defectors from Iraq in 1991. Russia might have sent them some extra air frames and such about the time they got the Kilos because we were kinda friendly to Iran for keeping out of Desert Storm.

Speaking of Su-24s...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HQR2wiCzY

[soopaman2]

Because of the imbargo the Russians and Chinese can't sell them any "offensive" weapons (Bombers, Air to Ground Missiles, Warships over a specific displacement) so the Iranians are basically stuck with North Korean weapons or Shah era weapons for all their major systems.


The jets they got from Russia (Su-25, MiG-29, Su-24) were flown by defectors from Iraq in 1991. Russia might have sent them some extra air frames and such about the time they got the Kilos because we were kinda friendly to Iran for keeping out of Desert Storm.


Thank you for a serious answer.

I just have a hard time believing this considering how both countries have a " an enemy of my enemy is a friend" mentality.

Not saying America has not participated in such behavior. Just a certain 2 nations who both love Iran, are more than willing to make America look silly at any cost, why not sell them modern MiGs?

Not like anyone (including America) respects the UN.

[Schroeder]

Speaking of Su-24s...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7HQR2wiCzY
Boy, I always thought our old F4s would leave quiet a smoke trail but that's nothing compared to that.:o

[TLAM Strike]

Thank you for a serious answer.

I just have a hard time believing this considering how both countries have a " an enemy of my enemy is a friend" mentality.

Not saying America has not participated in such behavior. Just a certain 2 nations who both love Iran, are more than willing to make America look silly at any cost, why not sell them modern MiGs?

Not like anyone (including America) respects the UN.

At least for Russia they consider Iran to be a potential enemy. They have conducted military drills in the Caucasus recently simulating an attack from the south against the oil fields.

[Stealhead]

Funny thing to me is you see some so many people concerned over Iran who does not have a complete program and one way or another probably never will when you have a nation not far away from Iran called Pakistan which does have nuclear weapons and is not exactly stable I mean it would not take much to go wrong in Pakistan for the wrong people to gain control of Pakistani nukes.

Dont get me wrong Iran very much is a very serious threat in the region but it seems to me that an rather unstable nation that really does have nukes and really does have groups within that would like to get those weapons into the wrong hands should be what people are concerned about.It is like watching the suspect looking guy down the street but not seeing the guy right behind you about to hit with a baseball bat.

[Skybird]

Funny thing to me is you see some so many people concerned over Iran who does not have a complete program and one way or another probably never will when you have a nation not far away from Iran called Pakistan which does have nuclear weapons and is not exactly stable I mean it would not take much to go wrong in Pakistan for the wrong people to gain control of Pakistani nukes.

Dont get me wrong Iran very much is a very serious threat in the region but it seems to me that an rather unstable nation that really does have nukes and really does have groups within that would like to get those weapons into the wrong hands should be what people are concerned about.It is like watching the suspect looking guy down the street but not seeing the guy right behind you about to hit with a baseball bat.
To allow Pakistan and NorthKorea developing nukes was one of the biggest mistakes in modern history. The region and the whole world pays the price especially over Pakistan. And it could become worse.

The point now is not to let Iran become a second Pakistan. ;) Must we allow to make the saame mistake twice? I don'T think so. In case of Iran, the consequences would be even worse, with a nuclear arms race starting in the most irrational region and one of the most unstable regions in the world. Religous hysteria, racism and supremacist attitude - spiced up with nuclear arms and proliferation threats?

No, thanks. The world can do without an Iran. Whether the world can do with an Iran having nuclear arms - is a very uncertain hope. And hope is no political strategy.

[soopaman2]

At least for Russia they consider Iran to be a potential enemy. They have conducted military drills in the Caucasus recently simulating an attack from the south against the oil fields.


The only casus belli Iran could impose to Russia, is economical, mainly European oil supply. IMHO of course. Russia has been pretty evil with putting the squeeze on its neighbors. Interrupting gas and oil flows over disputes with ex satellite nations.

I honestly do not even understand why "we" even have a dispute with Iran, outside of butthurt over Jimmy Carters cowardice in letting our friend the shah fall.

They do not harm America honestly. Sure they bruise our ego with stupid diplomatic crap, but we are America, and they still stone people to death.

[magicstix]

The only casus belli Iran could impose to Russia, is economical, mainly European oil supply. IMHO of course. Russia has been pretty evil with putting the squeeze on its neighbors. Interrupting gas and oil flows over disputes with ex satellite nations.

I honestly do not even understand why "we" even have a dispute with Iran, outside of butthurt over Jimmy Carters cowardice in letting our friend the shah fall.

They do not harm America honestly. Sure they bruise our ego with stupid diplomatic crap, but we are America, and they still stone people to death.

It goes deeper than you've mentioned, but we're in it mostly to protect Europe, Israel, and Saudi Arabia, who would be more in danger with a nuclear Iran. We also wouldn't put it past them to hand off a nuke to terrorist groups that want to hit us.

Iran has killed American servicemen through their proxy Hezbollah, and they spend a lot of time looking for a fight with the US. They've made it clear they want to be in charge of the middle east, which makes the Saudis nervous, which makes oil prices nervous, which makes us nervous. The United States (and western civilization in general for that matter) benefit directly from a stable, mostly status quo world, especially in the Middle East. Iran is a direct threat to that stability, which makes them a threat to Western prosperity.

[geetrue]

Notice the area of the crash.

All of the areas it could have crashed in and they found a nice place near Iran's first nuclear plant.

Air wing for protection of Iranian nuclear program perhaps :yep:

The Fars report says the fighter plane crashed due to technical failure and that authorities have recovered the wreckage outside Bushehr, a port city with the same name as the province. Bushehr is known as the location of Iran's first nuclear power plant.

[magicstix]

Notice the area of the crash.

All of the areas it could have crashed in and they found a nice place near Iran's first nuclear plant.

Air wing for protection of Iranian nuclear program perhaps :yep:

.

Not much protection. We built the damned things we know how to destroy them. :D

[TLAM Strike]

Notice the area of the crash.

All of the areas it could have crashed in and they found a nice place near Iran's first nuclear plant.

Air wing for protection of Iranian nuclear program perhaps :yep:

.

Yea but the Tomcats are based out of Bandar Abbas (their main navy base and home of their Kilos)

Bushehr is home of some of their ship building and their naval academy ( 28°53'48.34"N 50°51'2.79"E). This is the layout of their air defenses around the city:
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4255/bushadef.jpg
The Purple Triangle is an SA-5 Site, the Green Square is a SA-6 Site, Yellow are HAWKs, the Red is a HQ-2 (SA-2) site.

[Agiel7]

Remembered reading that Iran had managed to procure some Russian-built SA-10s from Belarus. In the event of hostilities. I should think those things are of greater concern to the USAF and USN aviators than a meagre fleet of poorly maintained F-14s with equally neglected AIM-54s.

[TLAM Strike]

Remembered reading that Iran had managed to procure some Russian-built SA-10s from Belarus. In the event of hostilities. I should think those things are of greater concern to the USAF and USN aviators than a meagre fleet of poorly maintained F-14s with equally neglected AIM-54s. Well they managed to produce some trucks with 55 gallon drums on the back made to look like SA-10s. Not sure how much of a threat they are... :hmmm:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Well they managed to produce some trucks with 55 gallon drums on the back made to look like SA-10s. Not sure how much of a threat they are... :hmmm::doh: Do you have pictures of those "missiles" and their "launchers"?

[TLAM Strike]

:doh: Do you have pictures of those "missiles" and their "launchers"?

No missiles just launchers...

http://defensetech.org/2010/04/19/iranian-s-300-sams-or-a-bunch-of-oil-drums-welded-together/

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

No missiles just launchers...

http://defensetech.org/2010/04/19/iranian-s-300-sams-or-a-bunch-of-oil-drums-welded-together/Thanks... I agree. That "launcher" setup doesn't look genuine when compared to pictures of real S-300/400 series missile launchers.

[gimpy117]

You are assuming that they have not come up with their own program to keep/upgrade the F-14s that they have.I know for a fact that they have performed since the late 90's a very successful program to modernize their C-130Hs which where built in the mid 70's.It is very possible for them to do the same thing with the F-14. Their are plenty of aircraft well over 30 years old still flying there are ways to repair all but the most worn out air frames.Like I said before Iran has found some way to keep all the 30+ year old support equipment running so they probably have found a way to keep the air frames going as well.FedEx also can get a good tax break for donating an old plane the rest probably get sold to some other smaller operator out there.

were also assuming that they've done this to all their tomcats. That kind of stuff is expensive to do, and very time consuming...and something I'm wondering if they have the technical expertise to do on an air frame that needs high G-loading. A C-130 is great and all, but lets face it, those air frames get a lot less loading on them than a fighter jet. Heck we still have the B-52 G which was introduced in 1961.

[Jimbuna]

The Iranians obviously have the unguided version of the S-300 :DL

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The Iranians obviously have the unguided version of the S-300 :DLYeah. I'm quite curious on what their operating tactic will be? Stop sticks on sky? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Yeah. I'm quite curious on what their operating tactic will be? Stop sticks on sky? :hmmm:

Fill the barrels with oil and bribe any potential aggressor :DL

[Herr-Berbunch]

Yeah. I'm quite curious on what their operating tactic will be? Stop sticks on sky? :hmmm:


Drive up and light a cigarette? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

Got this today

http://rt.com/news/iran-laser-guided-shell-065/

It's no fault of their self-confidence

Markus

[Marcantilan]

The important thing about the IRIAF´s Tomcats is the still operating AN/AWG-9 radar.

It doesn´t mind if they could fire Phoenixs, Hawks or ´winders. They could direct aircrafts or ships or whatever at long range to engage the enemy.

[magicstix]

The important thing about the IRIAF´s Tomcats is the still operating AN/AWG-9 radar.

It doesn´t mind if they could fire Phoenixs, Hawks or ´winders. They could direct aircrafts or ships or whatever at long range to engage the enemy.

That's actually the more likely scenario for the F-14's use. They used them as AWACS during the Iran/Iraq war.

However, they wouldn't be as effective as a real AWACS in that case...