Sengoku

[Nippelspanner]

Someone here who has - and understands - this game? Got it recently and I like it somehow... but it seems to be very complicated and the lack of tutorials and explanations about all the possabilities are giving me a hard time...
I start to fear that this game is...not as good as I hoped it is. Can an experienced Sengoku player tell me about the "secrets" of this game?

Are there any others at all? Am I all alone in feudal Japan? :o

[Spike88]

Someone here who has - and understands - this game? Got it recently and I like it somehow... but it seems to be very complicated and the lack of tutorials and explanations about all the possabilities are giving me a hard time...
I start to fear that this game is...not as good as I hoped it is. Can an experienced Sengoku player tell me about the "secrets" of this game?

Are there any others at all? Am I all alone in feudal Japan? :o

I at first thought I liked it, but after trying to play a Chokosabe underneath another clans rule until I could break free and be my own Daimyo. This ambition was crushed when I realized my AI Daimyo did a poor job of protecting Shikoku(The vast majority of his territory) and would lose it and me(causing a game over) in the first couple turns. It's not that he doesn't have the units to protect us, but the AI in it's stupidity would leave it's lands undefended to go attack elsewhere.

Politically it has more depth than Shogun 2, you can do things such as:


Earn Honor by spending money on the Imperial Court(Paying for gifts and the like)
Give land that you've conquered to your Generals(This land will earn you tax money, and let you recruit units from that land, but you are no longer responsible for upgrading the buildings)
If your Daimyo dies, your heir does not get the position right away, the clan has to vote(and you have to use your influence) to get your heir as clan leader. If you can't manage to get him into power, you lose the game.
Unlike in Shogun where you only have to force a General to commit Seppoku if they lose several battles, or lose Loyalty for you, here you may have to force them to commit Seppoku if they're getting too powerful
There is also a system where you can plot against rival clans, and get other clans in on the action.





When it comes to combat, the game falls short though.


When you send your armies to do battle, the outcome is not determined by which units are in the army, or the leader who is running them, but by who has the most units, and then a dice roll.
There are no Siege units
There are only two units in the game(Samurai and Peasants), which gives you a lack of depth





All in all, I gave up on it and have returned to Shogun 2, while it may not be as politically indepth as Sengoku, I'm at least not pulling my hair out as the Chokosabe.


In Shogun I'm currently playing a Co-op Campaign with Task Force, I'm having a hard time finding trade partners as everyone things I'm dishonorable(I broke off an alliance to attack), and I'm having a blast.


Edit: Oh, and as a note, I am highly interested in Feudal Japanese History and culture. I've read the book Shogun, and would be interested in reading more if I could find good ones. While most people don't want the new Fall of the Samurai game as it adds guns to the game, I personally can't wait to have more gameplay and history in this time frame.

[Nippelspanner]

Aaaah, a fellow mind, thats nice!
I am also interested very deeply in Japans history/the Samurai era.

Thank you for the overview. It looks like my fears come true and this game is just not... as good as it could be, unfortunately. Tried the Nanbu Clan and played around, arranged marriages and stuff, started a war, only to fail badly because the controls are just...strange to say the least. But in the end, your asking yourself: What am I doing here exactly? And why?

There is just something missing. :hmmm:

I am a very active Shogun player too, both MP and SP and I refuse to use firearms, just to raise and praise "the old ways" - even if the most clans did use firearms earlier or later ;)

Anyways, Im looking forward to FotS expecially because of the firearms. I guess it will be tough to rewrite history and save Japan before the Gaijins gain too much influence - without using firearms of course :yep:

Just hope there will be a way to play/win without firearms...

[Spike88]

Aye, it does feel as if something is missing from Sengoku. It feels almost unfinished, like there is a component that they didn't put in, and they're waiting for a expansion to add. Most Paradox games are deep and full of things to do, this one on the other hand feels very shallow. To make matters worse their manuals are usually lacking, and there isn't a wiki, so the features that are there are hard to get complete understanding of.

Maybe expansions will fix the game, but I'm going to hold of getting any until I can get a confirmation that the game is better.

I also prefer sword and steel, but would consider firearms if it's required to stay ahead. In my Co-op campaign I've had two offers by the Nanban traders. I have declined both as I do not want Christianity or foreign influence on my clan. Firearms may turn out to be a necessary evil though.

I've also wondered if It would be possible to beat Fall of the Samurai without firearms. The Gatling guns and cannons look like they'll make short work of Samurai units. Using traditional ways will require more strategy.


If you haven't done so, I suggest picking up James Clavell's Shogun and reading it before Fall of the Samurai is released, it covers the same period. It's kind of like The Last Samurai(movie) without Tom Cruise.

[Nippelspanner]

If you haven't done so, I suggest picking up James Clavell's Shogun and reading it before Fall of the Samurai is released, it covers the same period. It's kind of like The Last Samurai(movie) without Tom Cruise.

Ha, thats funny, I just watched 2 of 4 episodes from the TV series, which is tremendously good in my opinion. I will get the book most definately in the near future but want to "finish" Hagakure first. :up:

[Rilder]

Sengoku is pretty fun, not exactly my favorite Paradox game but in my eyes its far better then Corrupt Assembly's attempt at the "Sengoku Jidai".

Shogun 2 and Sengoku are very different games though so I really shouldn't be comparing the two. Basically, if you like the Campaign map more then the battles then Sengoku is probably funner, and if you like the battles more then play Shogun 2. (Well even though the battles in Shogun 2 are horrible compared to total war games that can actually be modded)

A couple clarifications:



When you send your armies to do battle, the outcome is not determined by which units are in the army, or the leader who is running them, but by who has the most units, and then a dice roll.
There are no Siege units
There are only two units in the game(Samurai and Peasants), which gives you a lack of depth

Its not just numbers and a diceroll, Units, terrain, Generals and such all do effect the battle. More numbers don't always mean victory.

No there isn't any siege units but its not like sieges take long really and bigger clans can usually amass enough forces to take well upgraded castles easily.

Its not "Samurai and Peasants" That's shogun 2. Sengoku is "Infantry, Calvary and Arquebusiers"

If you can't manage to get him into power, you lose the game.Actually I believe as long as you have a family member with at least a fief still alive you can take control of him if an heir doesn't get into power.

Sengoku has a lot of a really nice features I like and even though its not the funnest Paradox game, I do enjoy it sometimes. I love the Standing army + feudal levies system for example. Then there is the freedom to not have to start as a Clan leader and actually start as a 1 province vassal if you want, can't deny the fun of trying to forge a great clan out of nothing.

[Nippelspanner]

Mh, he was surely right by talking about "Samurai and peasants", since the Cavalry forces were Samurai and the foot soldiers non-Samurai, so, peasants.

However, I liked the thinking about creating a own clan out of nothing/being a vassall, but for me it just doesnt work good enough.

The Shogun campaign map is so much better, more beautiful and the way you manage and move your armies and agents(!) is much more comfortable, I think.
I can not remember a game that gave me such a hard time taking care of my armies like exchanging troops etc...

I guess Spike was right by saying Sengoku is just kinda unfinished, I agree on that at least. I wont throw it in the trash yet and give it a go from time to time, but I hope it wont bore me as much as the last sessions :oops:

[Spike88]

Its not just numbers and a diceroll, Units, terrain, Generals and such all do effect the battle. More numbers don't always mean victory.

No there isn't any siege units but its not like sieges take long really and bigger clans can usually amass enough forces to take well upgraded castles easily.

I can't be bothered to find it, but they pretty much said that it's mostly numbers and a dice roll(although mostly a dice roll so that "Smaller units can unpredictable beat off bigger units")


Its not "Samurai and Peasants" That's shogun 2. Sengoku is "Infantry, Calvary and Arquebusiers"
As NippelSpanner said it pretty much is Samurai and Peasants in Sengoku. Samurai on the horses, Peasants as infantry. Shogun atleast gives you Samurai on foot, and many different variants of Calvary.


Sengoku has a lot of a really nice features I like and even though its not the funnest Paradox game, I do enjoy it sometimes. I love the Standing army + feudal levies system for example. Then there is the freedom to not have to start as a Clan leader and actually start as a 1 province vassal if you want, can't deny the fun of trying to forge a great clan out of nothing.Which is exactly what I was trying to do with the Chokosabe, until my stupid AI daimyo kept leaving Shikoku unprotected.



All in all it feels unfinished. Tactically at least Shogun lets you place units where you want to in a territory and let's you hide units for Ambush on the campaign map.

While Sengoku may use actual feudal terms, and have a wider political system, it still feels shallow and uncompleted.