View Full Version : Sorry another targeting question
Hi all,
Sorry for another targeting question.
As I continue to improve my gameplay I was wondering if there is a simple approach to this. If I have my sub at zero degrees and a ship is on a course that will pass me side view on ,when it reaches my zero degree view, at what degree, viewing through scope should I fire?
I have auto shooting on as I am not advanced enough for manual yet.
So if a ship is chugging along should I fire at such and such a degree so the torpedo hits it when the ship crosses my zero degrees?
So if I am at zero would firing when the ship is at 30 degrees, approaching from right side through the scope, for example
Is there a calculation to do this simple approach to shooting?
Thanks in advance.
...hope the link works
scroll down to FAST 90. this i think is what you are after
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php%3Fp%3D652326%26postcount%3D67&sa=U&ei=CQ8gT_3UJMqu8AOBg9mqDg&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGcs-3n62Y64zXUAKLm7GHR2TZzxw
hope its right for you!!
vanjast
01-25-12, 09:27 AM
Your best 'window' for hitting the target is when it's at the -10<>+10 degree window (side-on) to you. In other words the ship AOB (Angle on Bow) is within the same window. (AOB = 80 to 100 degrees)
In the periscope view you'll notice a gyroangle indicator to the right of the scope. (The angle changes as you move your scope around) This is the bearing angle (relative to your sub direction) that your torpedoes will travel at.
As you've set up for straight ahead (0 degrees) and all the TDC data is automated, you just have to turn the scope until this gyro angle = 0.
All you now do is wait for the ship to cross your scope sights.. and fire.
(NB: don't forget to open the torpedo doors before you fire, otherwise there is about a 5 second delay before your torps go off, which can cause you to miss).
Now at any other angle (other than Zero) you have to calculate at which bearing to your sub where the target will be side-on (AOB=90), and use this as your gyroangle.
:)
Thanks to both of you for such fast and helpful replies
The hardest part of manual targeting is figuring out how fast the target is, and less hard, what the AOB is. This is usually done by plotting. Determining the amount of lead/aiming is done automatically based on speed and AOB you set. So manual targeting isn't really as manual as you think.
If you set the speed dial on the F5 page Attack map (you should have the manual targeting realism option set), then the TDC automatically calculates the lead-angle: the angle between the periscope view and the direction the torpedoes turn to (gyro angle). And points the torpedoes in the right direction. So, what you want to do, the game TDC already does.
But before you can set the speed or AOB or range dials there is a auto/manual TDC-update switch that needs to be flipped, and back when done. Think of it as a "configure"-switch. In the default state of this switch (auto), the AOB dial is changed automatically as you turn the periscopes or UZO. So you don't have to worry about what it is some time later. Only if you or the target changes course. In this default state it also automatically calculates the amount of lead the torpedoes need to have based on those other dials with reference to your periscope/UZO angle.
So, as vanjast said, basically you just:
set periscope to 0 (or 180 for aft torpedo shot)
flip the switch to manual
set the speed dial
set the AOB in relation to your current periscope view direction (with periscope at 0, set AOB to 90 left or right as it would pass when it is about to get hit)
set the range (only required if the torpedo gyro angle is not to be close to 0)
flip the switch back to auto
point the periscope so the gyro angle dial becomes 000
(! notice the AOB is corrected by the same amount as the periscope change !)
open torpedo doors
(change torpedo depth and impact/magnetic setting if necessary)
wait for the target to come into view on the cross-hairs
pull the trigger!
That's all folks!
Some people have provided charts to calculate this for each speed and AOB setting but there really is no reason to. Except to simulate situations where the TDC is somehow broken.
p.s. leave the torpedo speed setting the same for all tubes (so all slow if you have type-1 and some electric type-2 in the tubes). There is a bug where the torpedo speed setting is not updated in the TDC to the correct value when you select a different tube. This is going to make you miss the target for sure.
makman94
01-28-12, 09:02 AM
.....
That's all folks!
Some people have provided charts to calculate this for each speed and AOB setting but there really is no reason to. Except to simulate situations where the TDC is somehow broken.
......
i would , more correclty , called it ''different playing styles'' instead of ''...there really is no reason to...'' as you said.
with your way of thinking ,also the stopwatch with the speedlines is ''...there really is no reason to...'' becuase you can also find the speed from the raobf rings.but again raobf rings for getting speed also are ''...there really is no reason to...'' if you have drawn target's course on map.
or the attack disc is also ''...there really is no reason to...'' if you make your plots on map or ,aslo, 'your' 3-bearing tool is ''...there really is no reason to...'' if you know how to make the draws on map ....etc...etc
talking about styles here Pisces ,i am telling you that these tables existed in reality at german uboats( want me to dig for links that proove this for you?) so some Captains really needed them (it was their...style) and also these tables still are in use till today and also are 'hiding' some more uses that i never talked publicly about them (and i will never do for personal reasons).
these tables were not made for 'simulating' a broken TDC (i just named it that way thats all) but are made in order to get in game these different styles of playing.(like me i prefer)
thats the good thing with MaGui Pisces ,all the above features are not discarding anything from the rest allready in game features(as the use of the TDC that you allready described above) so everybody is free to choose his style or even better changing styles during gameplay.
so calling them ''...there really is no reason to...'' is not correct . the correct is ''...there really is no reason to...for my style of playing''
makman94, I am not denying anyones right to play as he likes. Just stating that the game provides the functionality to get the desired result (exactly) without extra modifications or additional charts/tables. Everyones is free to make up his own mind if what is available works the way (s)he likes. (I definitely don't like the Notepad entry function, hence I am using your Magui 3.4, and modified the mouse cursors to suit my own map-drawing requirements) If the player insist to not use the TDC as calculator then good for him/her. It wil be ready and able if (s)he desires to reconsider.
But, ... is this a language issue, or do you have a problem with me? Your frequent use of my phrase "there really is no reason to" (with larger font and screaming orange on black color) sounds like you are trying to get into an argument with me. Maybe it's just your writing style that confuses me a bit. Or are you perhaps angry with me, or offended by me? If so, you should contact me via PM. And let's try to work this out.
makman94
01-28-12, 11:10 AM
makman94, I am not denying anyones right to play as he likes. Just stating that the game provides the functionality to get the desired result without extra modifications or additional charts/tables. Everyones is free to make up his own mind if what is available works the way (s)he likes. (I definitely don't like the Notepad entry function, hence I am using your Magui 3.4, and modified the mouse cursors to suit my own map-drawing requirements) If the player insist to not use the TDC as calculator then good for him/her. It wil be ready and able if (s)he desires to reconsider.
But, ... is this a language issue, or do you have a problem with me? Your frequent use of my phrase "there really is no reason to" (with larger font and screaming orange on black color) sounds like you are trying to get into an argument with me. Maybe it's just your writing style. Or are you perhaps angry with me, or offended by me? If so, you should contact me via PM. And let's try to work this out.
i don't have anything personally with you Pisces ! you said that ''there is no really reason to '' for the tables and it was exactly the point that i don't agree with you (thats why i marked it...no screaming and other things like this that you say)
for everything that you say about the tables i am pointing to you ,as argument, that also are not needed the stopwatch-speedlines (which existed in reality) ,the attack disc (that also existed in reality) or the 3-bearing tool becuase game allready provides the fuctionalities to get results.
what is so difficult for you to understand ? for the same reasons that you damped the tables ...you can damped all the aboves too ! but will you damped them ?
as you said ''Everyones is free to make up his own mind if what is available works the way (s)he likes.'' then i am asking you why do you said that there is no reason for the tables ?
i have nothing to tell you at pm becuase i allready have told everything i wanted here and can't think of anything else that we can discuss.
angry with you ? no sir...don't even think about it and exchanging that kind of pms is just a boring procedure when we really don't have anything important to say
Ok, good to hear there is no problem between us.
The word "reason" is probably not the right word I could use. I admit. Better would have been "those tables are not required", or "not necessary". I'm not sure what you mean with "damped" though. I do not need those tables so I don't miss them. Or care that you added them to the GUI. I don't see what the added benefit is of them.
If the game simulated actual TDC failure then I probably would consider using them more often. But I don't take realism all the way.
And since using the tables properly requires changing speed and/or AOB dial to 0, you might as well set it to the value you know. I guess the "no reason" that I have is: it's just as easy.
@ Johnfb
Re-reading the starting post I realise you were asking for automatic targeting instead of manual targeting (realism option, not the button on F5 page). What I wrote is not really appropriate for your case since I am suggesting to use manual targeting. (I made a boo-boo!) But with auto-targeting the tables are not required either. Any time the target touches the periscope targeting bearing the dials are set appropriately. Basically the answer is:
turn the periscope/Uzo until the gyro angle (3 digit counter under the notepad area) reads 0
Wait until the desired hit-location on the ship passes under the periscope line (no need to lock either)
Fire!
The torpedoes move straight out of the tubes towards periscope bearing 0.
The exact 0 bearing is when the gyro- angle indicator crosses over from 359 to 000.
Thanks for all the advice guys. But if I fire at a ship crossing zero degrees the ship will have moved on by the time the torpedo reaches that spot will it not. So I should fire when the ship is 10 degrees from zero to hit it. Is this correct supposing my sub is dead straight and I will be firing at the side of the ship ?
I'm not sure what you mean with your sub being 'dead straight'. I hope it is straight. Bent subs turn in circles. ;) If you mean straight across the target's path, then yes.
Yes, the torpedo needs time to reach the ship. So before the boom happens the target gets a chance to move also. Depending on it's speed and the torpedo speed this is around 10 to 15 degrees periscope bearing.
I'm not sure what you mean with your sub being 'dead straight'. I hope it is straight. Bent subs turn in circles. ;) If you mean straight across the target's path, then yes.
Yes, the torpedo needs time to reach the ship. So before the boom happens the target gets a chance to move also. Depending on it's speed and the torpedo speed this is around 10 to 15 degrees periscope bearing.
:DL
Yes I should have said across the targets path.
Thanks for all your time helping me out.
Cheers
:yeah:
makman94
01-29-12, 07:07 AM
Ok, good to hear there is no problem between us.
The word "reason" is probably not the right word I could use. I admit. Better would have been "those tables are not required", or "not necessary". I'm not sure what you mean with "damped" though. I do not need those tables so I don't miss them. Or care that you added them to the GUI. I don't see what the added benefit is of them.
i don't know if you are talking seriously or you are joking now but i don't see what is changing at the meaning of your words by replacing with the word ''not required" or "not necessary".
the tables that you are calling ,now, as ''not neseccery'' are indeed not necessery for your playing style . but MaGui is not designed for one type of player and some like to attack with one method of TDC (like you) but others like to attack with a different way . both players will feel 'comfort' in MaGui and it is very normal... items that are used from the one type of players to be useless and totally unneseccery for the other type of players.so,it is normal for you not to care about the table's existance but are not there for your type of playing.
one example to get it more clearly :
it is exactly the same if someone ask how to find the speed of target .there are many methods (other are usual ..other not so usual).lets suppose now that you like the A method (without using the u-jagd stopwatch).
what will you do ?
will you reply to him ,describing the A method that you are using and ,at the end , you will tell him : ''eh, there are also some people who are getting the speed by a stopwatch with some speedlines,the u-jagd,but there really no reason(or ...not necessery if you like) to'' ? would you ever do that too and for what reason?
And since using the tables properly requires changing speed and/or AOB dial to 0, you might as well set it to the value you know.
thats also no correct Pisces. no speed or aob dial is required to be setted to 0.
.... I guess the "no reason" that I have is: it's just as easy.
attacking with tables is not more easy(there are no 'magical' attacking methods),it is one more different way to attack and either you like it and you use it or you don't like it and you...don't use it ! you have the choice in your hand .
thats why i am telling you again : tables are useless according to your playing style but are not useless for all users.
ps:tables were builted in game after a subsimer's request that i respect very much and ,even if nobody are using them , are not discarding any other procedure so,in your case, you could just ...ignore them
ps2: @Johnfb : sorry Johnfb for posting all these to your thread , it is my last message here and i will continue to pms if necessery
misha1967
01-29-12, 09:27 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys. But if I fire at a ship crossing zero degrees the ship will have moved on by the time the torpedo reaches that spot will it not. So I should fire when the ship is 10 degrees from zero to hit it. Is this correct supposing my sub is dead straight and I will be firing at the side of the ship ?
Not to jump in out of order here, but you really don't need to worry about lead if you're using the "right angle to target course" method, as I like to call it. Which, by the way, is my preferred method of attack whenever I can get away with it. Requires the target to be unaware of your presence and thus predictable, which is the one limitation of the method.
The only thing you really need to worry about is getting the target's speed and course correct.
Once you have those, you place yourself in a perpendicular (90 degrees) line to the target course. If, for instance, your target is traveling on a 90 degrees true course from left to right, you need to point your boat at a true heading of 0 degrees. (90-90=0). Trig is really your friend in a sub :DL
Then you "unlock" the TDC, point your scope at a bearing of 0 degrees (if you're attempting a front shot, 180 if you're firing the rear tube(s)), tell the TDC that the AOB is 90 (port or starboard depending on what direction the target is traveling in relative to you) and enter the target's speed. Then you lock the TDC data in. What you've told the TDC is what the target's AOB (and therefore course) is going to be when it passes right in front of you and, if you're at right angles to that course, that will be 90 degrees. You've also told it that the target will be traveling, at that point in the future, at a speed of x knots.
What the TDC will then do is to calculate the gyro angle (or, more simply, angle compared to the heading of your boat) the torpedo will have to travel to hit such a target. And this is where the true beauty of this method of attack comes in: When you turn your scope until the gyro angle is 0, meaning the torpedo will be set to travel straight ahead, the TDC will be set so that a target traveling across your crosshairs will be hit in the exact location that your vertical middle line of the crosshairs is once it reaches a point directly in front of your boat.
You don't have to lead or lag the target with your scope, as long as it is on the heading where the gyro reads 0 AND you got your course and speed calculations right. In a perfect world where you nailed both, all you have to do is to fire the torp when the vertical middle line is over wherever you want to hit the target. And here's the bonus: Distance of the target doesn't matter! Because the TDC already compensated for that with this method. You can empty your entire load of eels this way as the targets lumber across your sights. As long as the gyro reads 0 for your periscope bearing.
Of course, humans being human, as I've learned from bitter personal experience :haha:, no speed and course fixes are ever perfect, so I personally prefer to aim not too far off the middle.
And again: This method only works for that great shot where you have the luxury of just waiting for the target to come to you at right angles to your boat's heading. For any snap decisions at oblique angles, you'll have to dig out your other tools too.
misha1967
01-29-12, 09:36 AM
thats why i am telling you again : tables are useless according to your playing style but are not useless for all users.
ps:tables were builted in game after a subsimer's request that i respect very much and ,even if nobody are using them , are not discarding any other procedure so,in your case, you could just ...ignore them
ps2: @Johnfb : sorry Johnfb for posting all these to your thread , it is my last message here and i will continue to pms if necessery
Not to butt in, and recognizing that I don't know what Pisces exactly meant, how could I?, I think he was trying to say that using the 90 degrees on target course, waiting method, you don't really need all that much, not disparaging the inclusion of the tools.
On the other hand, personally, I absolutely depend on the "distance traveled in x minutes to target speed" chart to find out what my target's speed is and I DO need that information to fire like this. There are other ways of getting that number, but that chart is by far the easiest way to get it for me and I'm grateful to have it. I could get the crew to estimate it for me but, as the years have gone by, I've found that I'm better at it getting good fixes than they are, so the chart is a Godsend to me.
Anyway, I'm grateful for all of the numerous historical tools that you modders have included to this great game and, as you said, if you don't need it you don't have to use it. And I think that Pisces feels the same way, he just wanted to simplify it a bit for Johnfb so he could focus on the two critical data points that you HAVE to have for this firing solution: Course and speed. How anybody goes about getting those is up to them and, if it hadn't been for you modders, we wouldn't have all of the great choices that we do have. :up:
@Makman and Pisces,
don't get touchy guys, I have readed all your posts and there seems to be some misunderstanding. Pisces is well known for his good ability with maths and he obviously will not need or even consider necessary much of the stuff included in the GUIS created by many people, so it's obvious that how he words his comments about them will make some impact on the creators of them. He has already noted that and clarified, and what he first worte certainly looked also to me a bit "despective", depending on how you read it. I'm sure that wasn't his intention, however, so I'm happy it is clarified, but it could be good to have some PM exchange betwene you to further work out a better understanding.
Thxs
gi_dan2987
01-29-12, 11:11 AM
There are many ways to skin the cat when it comes to gathering data for a good torpedo solution. I typically use a series of range and bearing readings to get course and speed, then from that you will always have AOB. When ready to fire, obtain the range, adjust the AOB to match the course, and fire. I prefer pinging when engaging convoys because it's much faster than shuffling through an ID manual.
Not to butt in, and recognizing that I don't know what Pisces exactly meant, how could I?, I think he was trying to say that using the 90 degrees on target course, waiting method, you don't really need all that much, not disparaging the inclusion of the tools.
On the other hand, personally, I absolutely depend on the "distance traveled in x minutes to target speed" chart to find out what my target's speed is and I DO need that information to fire like this. There are other ways of getting that number, but that chart is by far the easiest way to get it for me and I'm grateful to have it. I could get the crew to estimate it for me but, as the years have gone by, I've found that I'm better at it getting good fixes than they are, so the chart is a Godsend to me.
Anyway, I'm grateful for all of the numerous historical tools that you modders have included to this great game and, as you said, if you don't need it you don't have to use it. And I think that Pisces feels the same way, he just wanted to simplify it a bit for Johnfb so he could focus on the two critical data points that you HAVE to have for this firing solution: Course and speed. How anybody goes about getting those is up to them and, if it hadn't been for you modders, we wouldn't have all of the great choices that we do have. :up:Actually, you are quite on the mark. (Pun intended ;) ) Thanks for clarifying my position.
@Makman and Pisces,
don't get touchy guys, I have readed all your posts and there seems to be some misunderstanding. Pisces is well known for his good ability with maths and he obviously will not need or even consider necessary much of the stuff included in the GUIS created by many people, so it's obvious that how he words his comments about them will make some impact on the creators of them. He has already noted that and clarified, and what he first worte certainly looked also to me a bit "despective", depending on how you read it. I'm sure that wasn't his intention, however, so I'm happy it is clarified, but it could be good to have some PM exchange betwene you to further work out a better understanding.
ThxsI definitely do not mean to disrespect Makman94 or any other moder that provides additional tools to the game. I just meant to convey that, technically speaking, the (stock) game provides the means to get the torpedo on target with the TDC, assuming the right values are entered. It is not lacking, therefore not needing additional tools/tables for torpedo lead. You just have to know how. (hence I provided the steps) But if indeed the player has a play-style where he insists to ignore the lead-calculation and torpedo-steering of the TDC built in (or just doesn't know how to use it),... well, then that's ok too.
Wanting to hold on to certain play-style can be reason enough to do it, I suppose. I have to admit I am just as much a creature of habit, and get annoyed if someone wants me to change it. Therefore I changed my words into "not necessary", "not required". That doesn't mean you are forced to do it the way as intended (by Ubisoft), or doing it wrong, or are less of a person/stupid if you are using somebody's tools. Just that you can get torpedoes properly aimed on target without extras.
I have offered Makman94 to continue via PM but he declined. Yet still he confronted me with more questions. So I'll leave it at that. I have no problem or ill feelings towards him.
makman94
01-29-12, 04:26 PM
I definitely do not mean to disrespect Makman94 or any other moder that provides additional tools to the game. I just meant to convey that, technically speaking, the (stock) game provides the means to get the torpedo on target with the TDC, assuming the right values are entered. It is not lacking, therefore not needing additional tools/tables for torpedo lead. You just have to know how. (hence I provided the steps)
but you are doing it again!(the disrespect)
the (stock) game provides all the tools so ,also, is not necessery the stopwatch with speedlines ,the attack disc(front and back side),the 3-bearing tool ,the nomograph...etc...almost all that moders added all these years so why is it only with the tables the matter ? ...just another question for...flying around !
i can't repeat the same things again and again pisces without taking a serious answer .the fact that you are still allowed to continue posting more insults to me without answering to my messages is somehow an answer too.
But if indeed the player has a play-style where he insists to ignore the lead-calculation and torpedo-steering of the TDC built in (or just doesn't know how to use it),... well, then that's ok too. so , now you are saying that i don't know how to use the TDC (...great conclusion btw...)
...you 'discovered' that periscope is showing the shooting bearing when TDC is on auto mode and you are acting like you discovered the....america ! seriously now , i would have greater expectations for you than only this.
... I have to admit I am just as much a creature of habit, and get annoyed if someone wants me to change it. ...so, still you have understand that i want you to use the tables method! and you get annoyed too !
no pisces,it can't be so difficult to understant what i am telling you to my messages.you are just pretending that you don't understand becuase if you don't you will have to post : ''i am sorry makman ,you are absolutely right and i feel terrible for insulting you'' .
...Just that you can get torpedoes properly aimed on target without extras. are not 'extras' , are alternative method ! (either the one or either the other...no extras). but keep pretending...
I have offered Makman94 to continue via PM but he declined. Yet still he confronted me with more questions. So I'll leave it at that. I have no problem or ill feelings towards him.i gave you the 'opportunity' to 'clean' the mess that you started publicly but you just throw it away.it is all your actions
i was expecting a pm from you long time ago but it never came ....remember ?so no sir...i don't want any pms from you
btw pisces: fair judging demands deep knowledge! keep that in mind
May I please ask both gentlemen to use PMs and if that doesn't work, to use the nice feature in the forum software to add the other to the "ignore" list? That way you won't ever again see a post by the other, and if all else fails, this is a good way to have a happy browsing here.
Thanks
Thread closed :shucks:
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