TMO Deck Gun useless?

[BabyBlue42]

Is it just me or does Trigger Maru make the Deck so weak that I might as well no bother? I've shot this destroyer like 50 times and it barely seems damaged. If this is realistic, then I don't think I want to use this mod, lol.

[mido]

Well, realistically a sub would never engage a DD with the deck gun unless it cannot dive for some reason.

[kstanb]

Deck gun is supposed to be used on small costal vessels or on unarmored merchants; preferrably to kill targets already damaged by torps. You should also aim to the waterline to improve sinking chances.

Going gung-ho against a DD is and should be suicidal, at least with high realism settings.

That said, based on my limited experience; TMO's deck gun is stronger than other mods'; With TMO I would sink a mid sized merchant (4000 to 5000 tons) with no more than 40 to 50 shells hitting. Try RFB and you will see what I mean; the sinking mechanics there are a lot slower and you can easily expend 100 shells to sink a mid sized merchant.

[Sailor Steve]

The reality? A destroyer would probably be disabled after 10-20 shots from an 5" gun. While that was happening he would be shooting at you with three or four guns, potentially hitting you 30-40 times while you hit him 10 times. The other reality is that if even one of his shots penetrates the pressure hull you can no longer dive, leaving you with a fairly crappy torpedo boat.

Bottom line: Don't attack destroyers with a submarine deck gun.

[donna52522]

A submarines primary weapons system is the torpedo. The deck gun would be used to sink unarmed merchants and to finish off abandoned wounded merchants as a secondary weapon. The anti-aircraft guns would be a last ditch self defense weapon...though they have been used on such things as sampans and fishing boat that are suspect picket boats.

A few 4 or 5 inch shells in a superstructure causes relatively little damage, unless the target is loaded with flammable materials. Usually warships would have their flammable materials protected by armor. Water line shots that allow water to flood the ship would be the preferred aiming point. :D

The stock games deck gun is unrealistic.

[Randomizer]

Is it just me or does Trigger Maru make the Deck so weak that I might as well no bother? I've shot this destroyer like 50 times and it barely seems damaged. If this is realistic, then I don't think I want to use this mod, lol.
If you demand "realism" what are you doing engaging destroyers on the surface, something that only ever happened in desperation and Never, Ever ended well for the submarine?

Sounds like your gaming style is unsuitable for TMO but to each his own.

[Armistead]

I'm still playing TMO 2.2, not sure how you even engage destroyers unless he toned visuals or gun range back down in 2.5, cause they would blow you out of the water from 10,000 yards. At that range at best even with me shooting I might get 1 hit, why they can be spot on.

[Ducimus]

I'm still playing TMO 2.2, not sure how you even engage destroyers unless he toned visuals or gun range back down in 2.5,

I toned visual sensors down a smidge in 2.5. As an aside, i have to say, this thread is a first. :haha:

[WernherVonTrapp]

Well, (long pause) welcome to the fleet BabyBlue42.:salute:

P.S.: Don't try to take on any enemy aircraft either.:D

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/fafaf0dc.gif

[USS Drum]

Engaging destroyers with deck gun in TMO!!! I smell a section 8.

[BabyBlue42]

Well I was in Shallow Waters, and it was so foggy I couldn't get a lock to fire a torpedoe. Also it seemed the AI apparently couldn't engage me at all outside of 500m or so due to the fog, so I just kept manually hammering him with my deck gun, since my AI Gunmen wouldn't fire either.

It just got annoying though firing at him constantly, getting hit after hit after hit and never seeming to sink him. Took so long that a second one came flying out of the fog and ran right into me. (On a side note, what it with the AI and ramming?)

Engaging destroyers with deck gun in TMO!!! I smell a section 8.

I did it in a dress too...

P.S.: Don't try to take on any enemy aircraft either

I figured this one out when they blew off the whole front of my sub (still got it back to base somehow). Now I crash dive as soon as I hear "Radar Contact!"

[Armistead]

In storms or heavy fog I will take on merchants, even DD's with the Deckgun by shooting at sound or radar bearings or sometimes you can see their lights on through the fog. It seems it takes me about 20 -30 hits on larger DD's to sink them.

The other issue could be damage zones, each ship has numerous zones. If you damage a zone 100%, further hits to that area will do no damage, obvious you can't know, but why you want to spread damage.

Escorts will ram you. In storms if a ship in the group has radar it can vector escorts right to you. I'm not so sure if the AI is actually ramming or just happens to vector your position, if you're on the surface you get hit, but it can do great damage. Either way, they will ram you and it's realistic, merchants and escorts would ram subs if they got a chance.

[USS Drum]

Escorts will ram you.

Actually when they ram you they usually end up blowing up and sinking and not you.

[Hinrich Schwab]

The object of the nerf in the mod was to realistically portray the imbalance of a submarine attempting to engage in traditional surface combat with a destroyer. A submarine is an unstable gun platform, regardless of the caliber of shell or skill of the gun crew. I won't reiterate the basic usage (unarmed and damaged light merchants) because this has been said enough.

The biggest thing to bear in mind is that submarines had no armor. Once the supersturcture/outer hull was breached, the appropriate tank was punctured and the pressure hull was vulnerable. Another clean hit in the same area would rupture the pressure hull. Once there is a pressure hull breach, a submarine loses its best advantage; the ability to dive. The battle is already over regardless of how many more rounds must be exchanged.

In terms of firepower, a submarine with a deck gun is the same as a Q-Ship, minus any reinforcing armor, plating or raw size to mitigate damage.

As I have said in similar threads, the best way to beat a destroyer is to dance around him while sinking his convoy so he can report his incompetence back to his superiors.:up:

[Bubblehead1980]

I'll just add my story...


Only time in TMO I have purposesly engaged a DD or DE with my deck gun was one patrol in May 1944 off Tokyo with a Balao Class.After a successful night surface attack(three 10,000 ton tankers gone in 5 seconds, two fish each, obviously had loads of fuel aboard) I was running away not that worried since only escorts I had seen were Type A's which could not overtake me speedwise, then I saw a full sized Akizuki DD roaring at me firing away, we dived and he unleashed one hell of a pattern, caused minor damage, then at 500 feet he got lucky and a charge or two destroyed the after torpedo bulkhead in addition to the after battery bulkhead.Multiple other systems were damaged, we had a choice, sink and die or surface and make a run for it, we were fast, it was dark outside, we could run and gun.I ordered us to scope depth and would try to hold it until proper time to surface.

When the Akizuki made another run and was in front of us, his stern sfacing our bow and the 5 inch deck gun, I blew the tanks.Took a little longer to get on surface due to flooding but we made it, manned the gun and went to flank speed.Between the 5 inch deck gun and forward mounted 40 MM bofors , we got some good hits which caused a deck fire and holes on her waterline, we speed off at 21 knots(luckily no damage to engines or props)

The Akizuki made a turn and pursued at reduced speed, firing away, shells spalshing way too close for comfort, one was close enough to cause hull damage to go from 12 to 14 but not visible holes left in the superstructure.

After a long pursuit, he gave up and went on to lick his wounds.I went ont o pearl harbor to end the patrol.

Now the smaller escorts, I'm not as scared of them, I had a aux subchaser try to ram me and it came along side, I strafed the crew with the 20 MM AA gun, they never fired again and just kept going in a strait line.I Killed the bridge and deck crew obviously.This was very much like the USS Salmon's last patrol.http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/WDR/WDR58/WDR58-7.html scroll down to 7-36.Salmon raked the deck of an escort with 20 MM and 40 MM fire.

Bottom line, you can engage with your guns but should only be out of desperation unless encounter ships not worth torpedos like the tiny Cha-1 subchaser or the Hira and Atami gunboats, can take them out from 5-6000 yards with your deck gun.



I did this out of desperation and very easily could have went the other way

[BabyBlue42]

As I have said in similar threads, the best way to beat a destroyer is to dance around him while sinking his convoy so he can report his incompetence back to his superiors.:up:

I've been trying that lately, but they seem to be omnipotent. Starting to think this mod is just too difficult for me. I do like many aspects of it, but clearly the AI knows a lot more about naval combat than I do, lol.

On a side note... why is the forums suddenly in what I think is German? I know I didn't intentionally change any language setting, and I can't seem to find how to change it back, probably because I can't read German.

[Sailor Steve]

I've been trying that lately, but they seem to be omnipotent. Starting to think this mod is just too difficult for me. I do like many aspects of it, but clearly the AI knows a lot more about naval combat than I do, lol.
You're not alone in that, brother. :oops:

On a side note... why is the forums suddenly in what I think is German? I know I didn't intentionally change any language setting, and I can't seem to find how to change it back, probably because I can't read German.
At the top of the page is the bar for using the forum. At the left is Kontrollzentrum (UserCP, or User Control Panel). Click on that. The third heading on the left is Einstellungen & Optionen (Settings and Options). There you'll find Einstellungen ändern (Edit Options). The very last setting at the bottom is Verschiedene Einstellungen (Language Options).

I'm not sure how you got the German option, but that should fix it.

Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

[BabyBlue42]

Thank you :) Although that was actually set for English, but when I was looking at that, I noticed the drop down at the bottom of the page was set from German. I must've clicked that accidentally at some point.

[seannybgoode]

All this talk of realism, and a sub never engaging a destroyer except in desperation:

Yesterday my sub got damaged seriously by depth charges in deep water. The only option was to surface or die. So I hit the emergency surface and man the deck gun. I hit the DD probably 10 - 15 times, and try to maneuver so that it can only shoot with one gun; this is at point blank range.

Long story short: Everbody dies (the DD lit me up).

[Sailor Steve]

We once had a member point out how easy it was to kill a corvette in SH3 - just surface behind it and blow it away, since it only has one gun and can't shoot backwards.

I pointed out what Nicholas Montserrat (author of The Cruel Sea), once had his corvette depth-charge a U-boat until it surfaced. When they tried to man the deck gun the corvette's 40mm AA gun on the stern killed the entire deck-gun crew. The rest surrendered.

On the other hand more than one US sub got into gunfights with Japanese gunboats and the like. Not destroyers though, as far as I'm aware.

[Rockin Robbins]

I like the TMO deck gun. During the heat of the day, if you stay on the surface where you belong the metal gets nice and hot. Great for drying laundry in a hurry!

Actually I did have a running gun battle with a minelayer once where my deck gun was disabled and I had to pummel him with my 40mm. I played peek-a-boo. Run to a spot, get the bearing to target, surface and pop off some shots. Submerge, jet over to another position and repeat. I did that for over an hour before he turned turtle and sank. I think the TMO guns are just great and very realistic.

This ain't Borderlands 2 or Unreal Tournament III where you pop 'em in the head with a level 60 electric sniper rifle and their head explodes. This is a bit more rooted in reality. The biggest factor in deck gun use was the more than 100 shots to do severe damage and the more than 200 shots usually taken to sink the average merchie. This left the sub on the surface with explosive ammunition all over the deck as long as it was playing the pop gun game.

Needless to say most captains would rather not have had the gun on the boat. Could have had a tennis court or something useful up there instead.

[TorpX]

I pointed out what Nicholas Montserrat (author of The Cruel Sea), once had his corvette depth-charge a U-boat until it surfaced. When they tried to man the deck gun the corvette's 40mm AA gun on the stern killed the entire deck-gun crew. The rest surrendered.



This reminds me of the version of a gun 'duel' I read about from the Tambor *I think*. The had their shinny new 5 inch gun and encountered a significant merchant, that was traveling in shallow waters. Rather than attempt a submerged approach in the shallows, they decided to do a battle surface. The gun crew smartly rushes up to man the gun, ammunition is passed up, and the author carries up a large shell rammer needed for the two-piece rounds. After one shot the gun jams and the enemy ship starts returning fire. The decision is quickly made to submerge, and there is a hasty scramble to get below. Shells are dumped over the side, and the author not seeing a good way to quickly get down the hatch with the rammer, ends up throwing it overboard, so everyone can get below. That was the first and last gun action of that patrol.

Not destroyers though, as far as I'm aware.

I think there were a few, but none where the battle went well.




This ain't Borderlands 2 or Unreal Tournament III where you pop 'em in the head with a level 60 electric sniper rifle and their head explodes. This is a bit more rooted in reality. The biggest factor in deck gun use was the more than 100 shots to do severe damage and the more than 200 shots usually taken to sink the average merchie.

Yes, I love it when someone complains that they couldn't sink a 5,000 ton enemy merchant with 20 shells.

[Admiral Halsey]

Yes, I love it when someone complains that they couldn't sink a 5,000 ton enemy merchant with 20 shells.

Well technically you can. Just make sure every hit is below the waterline at various point along the bulkheads or better yet hitting the dividing line between every bulkhead then sit back and watch the tonnage flow.


Or you could just submerge and sink it with a single torp in half the time but what do I know?

[TorpX]

Well technically you can. Just make sure every hit is below the waterline at various point along the bulkheads or better yet hitting the dividing line between every bulkhead then sit back and watch the tonnage flow.




Perhaps we could board the vessel and just set it on fire. I mean, why waste so many shells?

:)

[Admiral Halsey]

Perhaps we could board the vessel and just set it on fire. I mean, why waste so many shells?

:)




Well if we can do it with Sampans... :arrgh!: