S&P Strikes Again [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

STEED

01-13-12, 04:28 PM

France has lost there AAA+ Rating with S&P, now on AA+

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16552623

Austria also looks like there loosing there AAA+

Italy looks like a double whammy, there on A+ heading for BBB+

Don't panic France you still got AAA+ with Moody's & Fitch rating agency's.

Takeda Shingen

01-13-12, 04:30 PM

Bwahahahaahahaha! Welcome to the club, boys. We've saved you a nice seat on the bench next to good ol' Uncle Sam. :up:

GoldenRivet

01-13-12, 04:32 PM

for both the US and France AA+ would still be pretty generous :shifty:

STEED

01-13-12, 04:45 PM

Italy has been downgraded to BBB+ and Spain down from AA+ to A.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9011904/SandP-downgrade-and-debt-crisis-live.html

STEED

01-13-12, 04:49 PM

Finland & Germany keep there AAA+

updates...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9011904/SandP-downgrade-and-debt-crisis-live.html

Skybird

01-13-12, 07:18 PM

Finland & Germany keep there AAA+

updates...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9011904/SandP-downgrade-and-debt-crisis-live.html

But the EU states are working to pull Germany's rating down, too. The "fiscal pact" (hahaha, always these pathetic phrases, in German the word "Pakt" for a treaty has a very old-fashioned odor to it) is under heavy fire by attempts to soften up the key issues in it. States do not want to accept automatisms and EU courts (as if these are not already europhile enough) bringing them to courts when violating the debt breaks. States want that only a voting by other states can bring a violater to courts. In other words, since this event is extremly unlikely, they want to sanctions being imposed on anyone, ever.

And the German finance minister is reprted to secretly plan to bypass the debt break Germany alreadsy has implemented into its constitution, becoming valid in some years (in some years, yes, take your time, fellas, there is no need to hurry up...).

This to illustrate where the voyage is going: downwards.

Sun Tzu: he who tries to defend everything, will lose everything.

Oberon

01-13-12, 07:25 PM

Sun Tzu: he who tries to defend everything, will lose everything.

This is too true, and says it all about the EU crisis.

Skybird

01-13-12, 08:50 PM

After MONEY WARS: The Debt Strikes Back (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=191219)

it's now

MONEY WARS: Return Of The Rating.

:D

They say a third part, titled MONEY WARS: No New Hope, is in the making.

yubba

01-13-12, 09:31 PM

Kicrrr, the entitlements is strong with this one, kicrrrr........ eeeeeeewwww stupid they are, never socalism does work.

mookiemookie

01-13-12, 10:42 PM

The ratings agencies are absolutely irrelevant, especially S&P who was a prime enabler of the financial crisis. They're just saying what the market has already known and priced in. The ratings agencies are always late to the party...they make these ratings changes and the media reports it like it's a huge deal and a shock, when in reality any market participant who pays even a modicum of attention has already realized that Europe is not as creditworthy as they were in the past.

Yawn. :yawn:

Catfish

01-14-12, 05:09 AM

" ... Standard & Poors is a United States-based financial services company. It is a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies that publishes financial research ... "

Ah, ok. Do they think the Dollar will be better off now ? :D

Those rating agencies should not be overrated themselves.
The only people who need rating agencies is the greedy stock market - screw them !
The world and people are better off without those artificial constructs.

Jimbuna

01-14-12, 05:58 AM

Italy

BBB+ = Bunga Bunga Bailout+ :DL

Skybird

01-14-12, 06:19 AM

Yes, rating agencies made mistakes, especially in 2008, they are likely to be under some political and informal influence/pressure form the US political class, and yes, they are mostly late to the party, just putting into a school-note what the markets for the most already knows.

That's why it is hilarious when Europeans in their attempt to glorigy and tell lies about the efficiency of European handling, accuse rating agencies to detoriate the situation by their assessments, causally. Europeans just try to blame them, and mistake cause and effect.

European tactics and handling of the crisis is anything but convoncing and shiny. But that does not mean that America'S handling of its problems is any better. Seen this way, European'S scepticism on the role of US rating agencies, in this regard is justified. Europe must not allow Washington to impose influence on European decision makers to change its policies according to American ways of printing money and making even more debts: the US state of things is not such that one could argue it gives evidence for the American way being right and correct. However, the claim over the role of rating agencies as helping to causally inflame symptoms of the crisis, is absurd. For the most they indeed are too late with their ratings, trying to catch up with reality's events that are in lead.

There are other rating agencies as well in the world, and I would have a look at the chinese ones, too. A few of them had downrated the US and European states long before this even was considered a possible event in the West.

Jimbuna

01-14-12, 08:39 AM

It beats me why they are taken so seriously...but taken seriously they are :hmmm:

yubba

01-14-12, 08:52 AM

Never under estimate the darkside of the S&P.

Skybird

01-14-12, 09:13 AM

German comment ("S&P declares bancruptcy of Europe's political elites") (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article13815116/S-amp-P-stellt-Europas-Elite-die-Bankrotterklaerung-aus.html) that describes S&P imo more correctly than the criticism that they manipulate the markets and want to torpedo the EFSF and the Eurozone. I do not rule it out completely, but tend to weigh their focus differently. Maybe one quarter of their interest is motivated by market manipulation in favour of their clients' interests, the rest is a summarising description of the poliitcla misery. Let'S not forget that almost all Euro-countries violate the Maastricht criterios and the stabulity pact that was there, and that france ands Portugal, as the essay also says, massively violated them for many many years.

Problem is that politicians simply are not used to getting hold responsible for their actions and effects and deciusions - or lack of. The crisis over national debts, is also a crisis over an ill-cinstructed currency - and is a crisis of the very political system itself.

But one also should not forget that S&P is far from being infallible. On the same day Lehmann collapsed, they still rated their products as triple-A - something that they never shall be forgiven for.

Rhodes

01-14-12, 10:48 AM

My answer to sp and other's of that kind!
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5370/18108497.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/18108497.jpg/)

soopaman2

01-14-12, 10:53 AM

yubba

01-14-12, 05:00 PM

Hi I am a soveriegn nation.

I have a massive army, and my citizens love it here.

Hi I am the S and P. We are a corporation. We rated all those toxic mortgage derivatives as AAA, then ran like hell when the house of cards fell.

Now we are downgrading you.

Sovereign nation: *whimpers* Yes daddy dollar.

I can't wait for the pitchforks to come out, I will be there too...(got that alphabet agencies?)

I hope our national guard is up for firing on civilians. I wonder if the French equivelent is willing to as well.

You can only kick a meek dog so many times before he bites your foot off, and rips out your throat when you stumble.
that's a nice poem, as I sit here at my desk looking out the window at the gun shop across the way, watching people come and go, I'm amazed at how many people have come and gone, the business has done so well that the owner was able to buy a new ford pickup, it won't be pitch forks the sheepople will have, I can grauntee you that.

soopaman2

01-14-12, 05:05 PM

that's a nice poem, as I sit here at my desk looking out the window at the gun shop across the way, watching people come and go, I'm amazed at how many people have come and gone, the business has done so well that the owner was able to buy a new ford pickup, it won't be pitch forks the sheepople will have, I can grauntee you that.

One thing we can both agree on yubba, is the right to bear arms.

Deep down inside I knew I liked you for a reason.:)

STEED

01-15-12, 07:42 AM

S&P are trying to make up for being late last time back in 2008 by being prompt now, I still have a feeling there not.

The French elections just looked more interesting now.

Skybird

01-15-12, 08:08 AM

Meanwhile it is reported that bureaucrats have already watered down and softened up the so-called "fiscal pact" that with a loud fanafre was "decided" just in Decembre. No more debt-break in nation'S constitutions. No more automatism in penalising sanction against budegt offenders. No more independent monitoring of nations' fiscal desicipline. No more sanctions possible without other nations agreeing on them. No role for the EU court or the EU comission.

Nothing new at all.

Hahahaha!

But they are wondering why S&P downgrades them, eh, and the EFSF along with them, eh...???

When I'm in a grim mood, I have started to hope that Germany pays for it all indeed, and gets crushed. For if the German people let their political "elites" (oh what optimism in that term) get away with agreeing to this, I honestly think that Germany has become so dumb and stupid and careless a place with such an idiotic population living there that they really deserve to be abused and ripped off as much as possible and as heaven allows. It'S the same diabolic joy I get from that image that a little kid feels when building high towers with wooden blocks and then enjoys to tip it with a fingertip and see them collapsing.

If you want to really mess up something, leave it to politicians. Or to the people. I have started to wonder if both really make a difference, for the one seems to be as stupid and unresponsive as the other. Maybe both deserve each other?

yubba

01-15-12, 09:32 AM

One thing we can both agree on yubba, is the right to bear arms.

Deep down inside I knew I liked you for a reason.:)
Gee thanks, now you got me all misty eyed. I don't think it will be long before we will be fending off the wolves at our door, you ought too see the crazy crap that goes on here in central florida, can't even have a sweet sixteen party without somebody getting shot at. Just wait till the union thugs and the occupiers start wanting more than they deserve and come knocking on our door, in the name of redistrabution of wealth, as our so called leaders call it, I about have nothing left but lead, when the time comes, I would gladly give it too them. I hear the wolves, knocking at my door arappa tap tap, they say I must give more to them, rappa tap tap, I tell them I have no more, to give to them, arappa tap tap arappa tap tap, they say I have a roof over my head, they will just go ahead and take that, arrapa tap tap, my reply is rappa tap tap arrapa tap tap now that all my clips have run dry, no more wolves, I hope this will never come to be, Lord help us all.